187 replies to this topic

[curly2]

Abraham tweet:

Carl Crawford on the field for BP too. Line drives galore. Stance much more closed. Nice easy swing.

Obviously we often read glowing reports on guys who are rehabbing, but the fact that he's closed his stance is very encouraging.

[SoxScout]

Obviously we often read glowing reports on guys who are rehabbing, but the fact that he's closed his stance is very encouraging.

Why? He was hurt that year. I don't understand why we want an offensive force to change what made him great.

[SumnerH]

Why? He was hurt that year. I don't understand why we want an offensive force to change what made him great.

Crawford's never really been an "offensive force" at the plate outside of the 2010 outlier year; what made him very good was his all-around combination of being decent to above average at the plate with great defense and baserunning.

[Al Zarilla]

Why? He was hurt that year. I don't understand why we want an offensive force to change what made him great.

He was pretty helpless against anything over the outside part of the plate. Even when he got a hit on a pitch out there it looked like a fluke. How can it hurt to go to a more conventional approach? OK, with this team's luck...nah, can't say it.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Crawford's never really been an "offensive force" at the plate outside of the 2010 outlier year

I think it's a stretch to call a .378 wOBA an outlier when he notched .368, .365 and .367 figures in his three previous healthy seasons. A career year, maybe, but not an outlier.

Whether Crawford had been an "offensive force" before 2011 depends on how you define that. He was a solidly above-average hitter with game-disrupting speed, but not an elite hitter.

[mabrowndog]

John Tomase @jtomase

Crawford hopes to join Pawtucket this weekend and then return after the break. Says elbow still isn't 100 percent.

[Harry Hooper]

Yeah, as I posted in a previous game thread, this whole Crawford comeback is likely to be a mirage. He'll play for a week or so before the elbow shreds. Off to surgery, and maybe we'll see him playing in Fenway in late 2013.

[reggiecleveland]

It almost seems this guy has wasted two years trying to play through things. He may as well have had surgery in March. We all dislike Lackey and Carwford's contracts but it seems both guys have made things worse by trying to earn the money while injured.

[someoneanywhere]

I'm not sure what "100 percent" means, and I wish reporters would stop asking that question, or follow up more astutely and precisely when a player offers it. As has been pointed out countless times, no player is ever 100 percent -- ever. So, by this does Crawford means it's just not all the way there but certainly well enough to play? Or that it still feels unstable and could potentially go at any time, as Hoop says? If he's going on up the ladder rather than shutting it down I assume it's the former. But it sure would be nice to have John-Tom or anyone else over there actually ask him: Gee, Carl, if it's not all way there, why are you going on up to Pawtucket?

[gammoseditor]

I understand the Red Sox medical staff has not earned the benefit of the doubt but not every injury like Crawfords needs Tommy John surgery and when non pitchers come back from rehabbing the injury without surgery I would think it's pretty common they are not yet 100%.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

I understand the Red Sox medical staff has not earned the benefit of the doubt but not every injury like Crawfords needs Tommy John surgery and when non pitchers come back from rehabbing the injury without surgery I would think it's pretty common they are not yet 100%.

Correct on both counts

[Harry Hooper]

Yes, but it's hard to believe that re-tooling Carl's throwing motion to protect his elbow is anything but a desperate measure.

[someoneanywhere]

Yes, but it's hard to believe that re-tooling Carl's throwing motion to protect his elbow is anything but a desperate measure.

There I might part ways with you, Hoop.

This is what the article says:

For that, Crawford can thank Niemann, who spent five seasons helping Mets pitchers and outfielders rehab from arm injuries. Niemann has been teaching Crawford to better utilize his legs and his core while throwing in order to take stress off his arm. “In order to throw a ball as a pitcher, you’re constantly talking about the delivery and how you can make it more efficient and less stress on the arm while still commanding the ball,” Niemann said. “Throwing from the outfield is the same thing. We want him to be in the best position to create less stress on the arm and the best throw direction. I don’t want to say it’s command, but it is. You want to be able to throw to your target and hit what you’re throwing at. It’s the same thing.”

Sounds eminently reasonable -- even downright sensible -- to me. A hitter's "swing" is as misnamed as a pitcher's "arm." The business of baseball is below the belt, not in the arms: in the hips, in the core, in the load elements necessary to both hitting and pitching. That's where the power is, and that's where accuracy is. Now, Carl might have been doing it his way all his life and got to the big leagues doing it, so therefore wasn't about to change or even thinking about changing. The injury might have been the catalyst -- not because fixing it was an attempt to keep it fixed through desperation, but because it's what he should have been doing the whole time.

[Harry Hooper]

Habits die hard. In the heat of MLB competition, most likely Crawford will revert to the motion he's been using for 15+ years. We'll see.

Aviles should be under orders to get well out into LF to shorten Carl's throws.

[Plympton91]

The important thing about his elbow is whether it bothers him in his swing. If it bothers him on the 1 to 3 throws per week that actually matter that's not really an issue. It's too bad we don't have reporters that know anything about baseball to ask logical follow up questions such as that.

Edited by Plympton91, 06 July 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[drtooth]

From Scott Lauber's (and several other) Twitter feed

Crawford will be shut down for at least five days, after which the clock on his 20-day minor league rehab assignment will restart

Mild groin strain.

Edited by drtooth, 07 July 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[Jed Zeppelin]

This is why we don't worry about roster crunches months in advance.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Lackey will contribute more wins to the Sox than Crawford over the balance of their contracts. That's spotting Crawford two years. Crawford is an unmitigated disaster for this franchise.

[czar]

Yeah, as I posted in a previous game thread, this whole Crawford comeback is likely to be a mirage. He'll play for a week or so before the elbow shreds. Off to surgery, and maybe we'll see him playing in Fenway in late 2013.

TJS for hitters actually requires far less recovery time. IIRC, players have had it after the season ends and have been ready for Opening Day.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

TJS for hitters actually requires far less recovery time. IIRC, players have had it after the season ends and have been ready for Opening Day.

No, it's still at least none months. That's assuming that the theoretical surgery he's talking about is indeed TJ - he may need an elbow scope or sonething else entirely

[irinmike]

This entire organizatioin is a unmitigated disaster. The length and depth of injuries within the forty man roster is far from bad luck, when the DL merrygoround, continues to escalate for three years in a row.

Lackey will contribute more wins to the Sox than Crawford over the balance of their contracts. That's spotting Crawford two years. Crawford is an unmitigated disaster for this franchis

Edited by irinmike, 07 July 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

From Scott Lauber's (and several other) Twitter feed



Mild groin strain.

Yeah, right. I have a bridge to sell, too.

Just shut him the fuck down, and get him ready for next spring. He's not going to singlehandedly fix what ails this team, and he may not even outplay his replacement.

[JMDurron]

No, it's still at least none months. That's assuming that the theoretical surgery he's talking about is indeed TJ - he may need an elbow scope or sonething else entirely

You're really going out on a limb with that one.

This latest setback, combined with the apparent slide of the team out of playoff contention while playing against tougher competition, would seem to argue for just shutting him down for the season. Hopefully the team has some solid insider knowledge indicating that Crawford can be healthy and contributing to the 2012 team in a meaningful way if they keep trying to get him back this year, and are not just working off of a combination of hope and self-imposed pressure to return a high-dollar starter to the lineup.

[drtooth]

You're really going out on a limb with that one.

This latest setback, combined with the apparent slide of the team out of playoff contention while playing against tougher competition, would seem to argue for just shutting him down for the season. Hopefully the team has some solid insider knowledge indicating that Crawford can be healthy and contributing to the 2012 team in a meaningful way if they keep trying to get him back this year, and are not just working off of a combination of hope and self-imposed pressure to return a high-dollar starter to the lineup.

I believe he meant to type nine months.

[bankshot1]

Lackey will contribute more wins to the Sox than Crawford over the balance of their contracts. That's spotting Crawford two years. Crawford is an unmitigated disaster for this franchise.

Can the Sox sue Theo for malpractice?

[bigyazbread]

So the Daniel Nava experience will continue... For me, he's one of the few bright spots in this brutally dismal season.

[JMDurron]

I believe he meant to type nine months.

I believe that as well, but the combination of that typo and the "at least" phrasing made it amusing enough to me to comment on it.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Upon further consideration, I would like to revise my previous estimate from "none months" to "nine". Seems less nebulous.

I also think, given the ramifications of this so-called groin injury, that what the Sox are really doing is buying time to see what direction the team goes. If in the near future (prior to the trade deadline) the team goes fully in the tank (already well on their way), they will shut Crawford down altogether and he'll probably have surgery. If by some miracle of science they turn things around, maybe they continue on the current non-operative plan and maybe he has surgery after the season is over.

Fucking elbows.

[crystalline]

Lackey will contribute more wins to the Sox than Crawford over the balance of their contracts. That's spotting Crawford two years. Crawford is an unmitigated disaster for this franchise.

I was about to respond saying that Lackey was already in a hole given all the negative WAR he earned last year, but then I looked it up. Fangraphs has Lackey at 1.1 WAR in 2011. What? I kept hearing how he was the worst Red Sox starter ever.
And indeed B-R tells me that with an ERA+ of 67, he is the 5th worst pitcher who started at least 20 games since 1980.

That must mean WAR's replacement value for starting pitchers is wrong by a decent amount, yes?


http://www.baseball-...x=1&submitter=1

[wutang112878]

Sounds like Crawford is convinced he needs TJS but Cherrington is denying it, things dont seem to be getting better on any front lately:

Crawford told ESPNBoston.com's Joe McDonald a couple of days ago that if he can't handle the pain in the elbow, he'll "probably" have surgery to repair a sprained ulnar collateral ligament after the season. He has told friends, a baseball source said Saturday, that doctors have told him he will need the operation.

"That is false," general manager Ben Cherington said in an e-mail late Saturday afternoon. "It's a possibility down the road, but plenty of position players play with UCL injuries."

[Marbleheader]

The communication skills across the board in this organization this season have been appalling . Ownership needs to step in and take the wheel and stop this business of what should be internal discussions happening through the media . This franchise is an embarrassment right now.

[Toe Nash]

I was about to respond saying that Lackey was already in a hole given all the negative WAR he earned last year, but then I looked it up. Fangraphs has Lackey at 1.1 WAR in 2011. What? I kept hearing how he was the worst Red Sox starter ever.
And indeed B-R tells me that with an ERA+ of 67, he is the 5th worst pitcher who started at least 20 games since 1980.

Fangraphs WAR is calculated based on FIP and not his actual results. This is fundamentally different from b-ref's WAR which is based on what he actually accomplished on the field and has him at 2.1 WAR below replacement level.

See the stickied thread at the top of this forum for more info.

[Lynchie]

If this (TJS) is what he needs just get it done. We can and have in essence lived without him for a year and a half so no big deal. Get him squared for '13 and be done with it.

[czar]

No, it's still at least nine months. That's assuming that the theoretical surgery he's talking about is indeed TJ - he may need an elbow scope or sonething else entirely

Hmmm.

Is it nine months until 100% healed, but a positional player can play earlier?

Luis Gonzalez had TJS (throwing) on 8/2/04 and was participating in full baseball activities by 2/18/05 (link - a few pages deep)
Brad Hawpe had TJS (throwing) on 8/15/11 and was able to play in games on 2/17/12 (link)
Zach Cozart had TJS (non-throwing) on 8/13/11 and was cleared for baseball activities on on 12/2, with him taking full BP by 2/19/12 (link)

EDIT: Justin Maxwell had TJS (throwing) in October 2010 and was ready for ST in 2011 (timeline a bit vague, link)

All three were roughly 6 months until they were essentially ready for games (although if you have it done in late Sept, you figure they might have a tough time getting up to speed during ST).

Lots of other links I see (non-medical, admittedly) peg the return for position players at ~ 6 months (ex1, ex2) so that's why I'm wondering if maybe they are allowed to play with an "85% UCL" (or something like that) as long as the med staff knows they won't hurt it more while it finishes healing.

Edited by czar, 08 July 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Six months is an aggressive but achievable timeframe for return to activities, but nine months is more realistic for "full strength" and because a lot of players have temporary setbacks in their rehab (Hawpe's link references just that, Rich Hill, etc).

They should just cut bait and do it now.

[bosox79]

Yeah of they cut bait now he could be ready for opening day, and with all the OFers we have, we shouldnt miss him much.

How good is the recovery rates for hitters? And when do they reach full strength? Any chance he comes back "stronger/better" than before like how some pitchers gain velocity?

[geoduck no quahog]

For a guy whose speed is a big part of his game, taking a chance on groins and hamstrings is just not worth it. I'm in the camp that says a healthy Carl Crawford (elbow, wrist and legs) is a huge asset to the Red Sox, but it's just not going to happen this year. If he wasn't making so much money, I doubt the front office would be pushiing his return so intently. I agree with the poster that said "shut him down and wait for 2013". Crawford is not going to win the Division for the Red Sox in 2012 - just let it go.

[SoxScout]

Given the condition of his left elbow, and considering the lack of significant improvement after receiving a platelet-rich plasma injection in late April, Crawford has been told by doctors that he likely will need Tommy John surgery to repair his damaged ulnar collateral ligament. So, why wait?

“Thought about it,” Crawford said today, “but at this point, if I can play, I think (the Red Sox) want me out on the field. I’m just trying to do everything I can to get back out on the field. Right now, I feel like if I couldn’t help the team I wouldn’t get out there.”

Crawford’s minor league rehab assignment has been interrupted by minor tightness in his groin, an issue he said that isn’t any different from the routine soreness he experiences each year during spring training. But he’s hoping to play Thursday at Triple-A Pawtucket and believes he’s still “very close” to rejoining the Red Sox.

For how long, though? Crawford’s elbow may be a ticking time bomb.

“Probably at some point it’s going to blow out on me,” Crawford said. “It’s one of those things that is what it is.”

http://www.bostonher...ng-to-blow-out/

[ScubaSteveAvery]

That is...awesome. I just don't understand why the club doesn't just shut him down. I see no upside in letting him play when his elbow is shredded.

[TheShynessClinic]

That is...awesome. I just don't understand why the club doesn't just shut him down. I see no upside in letting him play when his elbow is shredded.

Because this team is run by a bunch of revenue-driven chimps. Getting a big name player on the field to help keep the sellout streak alive is more important that fielding a healthy, winning team.

[Ed Hillel]

When did he even hurt his elbow? Did he hurt it in Tampa and keep it quiet? How did we get from a wrist injury, back to the team in May, to TJS?

Edited by Ed Hillel, 08 July 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

Because this team is run by a bunch of revenue-driven chimps. Getting a big name player on the field to help keep the sellout streak alive is more important that fielding a healthy, winning team.

This is probably the most frustrating part about being a fan of this team right now. We have no clue why the decisions are being made like they are. I don't want to pretend like I know what is going on in the front office, but so far this year they have not talked out, or shown any sort of reasonable plan for this club. I understand that Cherington was handed a crap sandwich, but from the manager search to insisting that Crawford play with a shredded elbow, none of the moves have made sense, especially when viewed in total. At this point, its hard to have any confidence in either Cherington or the ownership.

Edited by ScubaSteveAvery, 08 July 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[AimingForYoko]

http://www.bostonher...ng-to-blow-out/

Carl should just pull a Jacoby and shut himself down. I know that he's probably worried about proving himself in Boston and what not, but it's pretty clear that the FO have no clue what they're doing.

There's no sense in potentially risking the rest of his career and the idiots making these decisions should be ignored. And they wonder why their own players don't trust the medical staff.

[Rasputin]

Because this team is run by a bunch of revenue-driven chimps. Getting a big name player on the field to help keep the sellout streak alive is more important that fielding a healthy, winning team.

I don't buy this for a minute.

This is probably the most frustrating part about being a fan of this team right now. We have no clue why the decisions are being made like they are. I don't want to pretend like I know what is going on in the front office, but so far this year they have not talked out, or shown any sort of reasonable plan for this club. I understand that Cherington was handed a crap sandwich, but from the manager search to insisting that Crawford play with a shredded elbow, none of the moves have made sense, especially when viewed in total. At this point, its hard to have any confidence in either Cherington or the ownership.

If they have a plan they certainly haven't communicated it well.

I suspect that is at least in part because so much of the plan depends on how things worked out this year. I came into this year assuming that either Youks or Papi was going to be gone when 2013 started. The SS position is hugely dependent on what Iglesias does. The C position is hugely dependent on what Lavarnway does with the glove. The pitching is hugely dependent on the results of Bard's transition and Doubront's progress.

Of course doing things like trading Lowrie for Melancon and giving away Scutaro and signing Punto don't help.

[Marbleheader]

Comments from both sides make it seem like there's more to this story. This has the potential to get ugly fast.

[someoneanywhere]

Carl should just pull a Jacoby and shut himself down. I know that he's probably worried about proving himself in Boston and what not, but it's pretty clear that the FO have no clue what they're doing.

There's no sense in potentially risking the rest of his career and the idiots making these decisions should be ignored. And they wonder why their own players don't trust the medical staff.

It wouldn't be pulling a Jacoby if he shut it down. Apples and oranges. Jacoby was earning good money at the time -- but was (and is) still under club control. Shutting it off was a means of protecting himself for free agency and the one mega-deal that a player with his skill set most likely gets to sign in his career.

Crawford has already signed that deal. For as much crap as he takes, on this board as elsewhere, the element no one seems to care about is the pressure he most certainly feels to earn his keep.

[mauidano]

I like the point made earlier that CC is not going to win the division for us this year. Even if he's "ready" to go by the end of the month, that's what about two + months of baseball? If he ain't raring and ready to go and he sounds like he's not; shut it down. Do the surgery and be ready next year. We're stuck with him regardless. Can you imagine the heat if he comes back this month and isn't "ready" or ends up on the DL again? He and the FO will be eaten alive!

[Rudy Pemberton]

What's really going on here? This injury was initially supposed to cost Crawford a few weeks of the regular season, now he's claiming surgery is inevitable, and the team disputes it? Add in the claim of racial insults from fans from rehab, and it seems clear that were this a marriage, we'd be getting divorced. Does Carl not want to play unless he's 100%? The idea that the club wants him on the field to help sell tickets is ridiculous; no one is buying tickets to see this guy play, he's not really a popular player in Boston. Just a hideous situation, where we are 1.5 years into an 8 year deal that both sides wish never happened.

[absintheofmalaise]

What's really going on here? This injury was initially supposed to cost Crawford a few weeks of the regular season, now he's claiming surgery is inevitable, and the team disputes it? Add in the claim of racial insults from fans from rehab, and it seems clear that were this a marriage, we'd be getting divorced. Does Carl not want to play unless he's 100%? The idea that the club wants him on the field to help sell tickets is ridiculous; no one is buying tickets to see this guy play, he's not really a popular player in Boston. Just a hideous situation, where we are 1.5 years into an 8 year deal that both sides wish never happened.

Were you asking anyone in particular or is this just another stream of consciousness post?

[Van Everyman]

The wrist was supposed to cost him a few weeks. It's always been months/after the ASB minimum w the elbow.