2134 replies to this topic

[mandro ramtinez]

Honestly, I wouldn't trade in the past 4 years, but boy is it disappointing.

The past four years have exceeded almost every one of wildest hopes. There have been disappointments but the great moments far exceed those disappointments.

[Nick Kaufman]

I just wish we had a rejuvenation machine and made those guys 27 years old again. I remember the days when Ray Allen was hitting off-balance 3s and today you could see the form, but it just wasn't the same. And obviously, the Heat wouldn't stand a shot against our players in their prime.

[Ed Hillel]

Honestly, I wouldn't trade in the past 4 years, but boy is it disappointing.

The random, freak, inury?

[bankshot1]

They were a big body and a healthy Ray Allen from winning a title this year. But they played their asses off.

Thanks Celts.
I love this team.

[MoGator71]

I can't kill them over '10. They weren't supposed to do anything at all that season, but instead they knocked off the pre-anointed Cavs (and did in handily) and went on the road and beat Orlando. And sacked up big time against LA...right up until Perk went down and then the 4th quarter game 7 LA foul line parade. They're an aging team that's battled injuries...but at the end of the day we got a ring out of this group, and while they didn't win another one they generally exceeded any of the "experts" expectations.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Dead inside. This team deserved better.

[The Belly Itcher]

Not as much as we like to think.

Depends on what you mean by "as much". We may dwell on the times that our brain fails us from a pattern detection standpoint, and these occurrences certainly stand out when they do, but in the non-pathological brain our sensory and mnemonic systems are generally pretty damn good at detecting patterns. Which gets back the point of whether this losing pattern reflects a "false alarm" of sorts... I say no.

Edited by The Belly Itcher, 10 June 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[estreetfan]

Thank you Celts for a fun ride. Also, thank you to all the posters here who gave me some awesome insight about the NBA throughout the year. I enjoyed reading the threads.

[Mystic Merlin]

Depends on what you mean by "as much". We may dwell on the times that our brain fails us from a pattern detection standpoint, and these occurrences certainly stand out when they do, but in the non-pathological brain our sensory and mnemonic systems are generally pretty damn good at detecting patterns. Which gets back the point of whether this losing pattern is real...

It's real in that it happened, yes. And all I would definitively claim is that our almost unbroken focus on the ultimate result is a flaw in perception, which itself is the result of our acceptance of the fundamental premises of sports and competition generally. We watch teams with staggeringly comparable levels of skill and talent battle it out over many games and weeks, and to one goes the spoils. I think that's just fine, as a person who loves competition, but if we're going to evaluate a team, I'm not sure isolating a few games - especially games most would grant they could not reasonably be expected to have reached - is the best way to go about it.

To me, the fact that, over time, this group was constantly in the mix at the very end is more compelling evidence as to their qualities than the fact they lost to Kobe/Gasol-led or LeBron/Wade-led teams in painful fashion. What do those losses tell us, exactly? Did they 'lose' what some would by implication claim they had in 2008? And, if so, what was it that they 'lost'? It seems to me to be a web of contradictions or at least unsatisfying conclusions.

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 10 June 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[The Belly Itcher]

It's real in that it happened, yes. And all I would definitively claim is that our almost unbroken focus on the ultimate result is a flaw in perception, which itself is the result of our acceptance of the fundamental premises of sports and competition generally. We watch teams with staggeringly comparable levels of skill and talent battle it out over many games and weeks, and to one goes the spoils. I think that's just fine, as a person who loves competition, but if we're going to evaluate a team, I'm not sure isolating a few games - especially games most would grant they could not reasonably be expected to have reached - is the best way to go about it.

But again. It's not 1-2 games being lost. It's many more deciding games being lost *in a row*, thereby making it a pattern.

Edited by The Belly Itcher, 10 June 2012 - 12:13 AM.

[Mystic Merlin]

But again. It's not 1-2 games being lost. It's many more potentially deciding games being lost *in a row*, thereby making it a pattern.

That's true - they had to put themselves in that position by not prevailing in previous games. But, in sum, they won more of those games than they lost. And, well, maybe they lost to better teams? Or they at other times just fucked it up, I'm sure no one would claim otherwise on that point. They got smoked by Orlando in '09 Game 7, after all (at home!).

Like I said, I don't know, but I - and I suspect you - am immediately suspicious of anyone who is very sure about what they think of a team with the Celtics' profile, mostly because they assume no burden to explain why what they - not you - claimed the Celtics had in spades in 2008 that allowed them to triumph that they lacked in later years. The analysis neglects context, or a recognition that there are other really good teams that you'll encounter as you move on.

[The Belly Itcher]

But again. It's not 1-2 games being lost. It's many more deciding games being lost *in a row*, thereby making it a pattern.

Actually, allow me to me to formalize what I mean by pattern. Under the null hypothesis that the outcome of a deciding game between two "equal teams" is akin to the outcome of a balanced coin flip, then the probability of us losing so many of these games in a row is unlikely. I am oversimplifying, but sometimes you have to consider the likelihood of such a sequence of events taking place as not a result of being snakebit, but rather we weren't good enough.

Edited by The Belly Itcher, 10 June 2012 - 12:23 AM.

[Jed Zeppelin]

All I know is I will always remember this group as an incredible chapter in Celtics history, and I will never remember or blame them for the things they didn't do.

[riboflav]

I'll be the first to defend this group because of what the injuries have kept them from accomplishing these past four years, but in two of those pivotal games - Game 7 vs LA and tonight - the C's had pretty comfortable halftime/3rd quarter leads and faded in the 4th.

I hate this logic. This is the NBA with freakish athletes and a 24-second clock. When I watch the game until the last minute or so I always subtract 10 points from the leading team because that is how fast an NBA team, any good NBA team, can come back. This whole "blown lead" stuff I always hear about in the NBA is utter nonsense and really only applies in special scenarios like NJ v. Boston in 2002.

[AimingForYoko]

Dead inside. This team deserved better.

[McBride11]

This came up in another thread, but our starting 5 could have been: Rondo, Durant, PP, Al Jefferson, Perkins. Not too shabby. Instead we got the 5th pick, Jeff Green, who was then traded and the Big 3 era was born.

Instead we got 1 NBA Championship, 2 NBA finals, 4 ECF, and a number of exciting games. Ya there are "What if KG didn't blow out his knee." "What if this team actually showed up to game 6's." And a whole lot of "NBA is officiating SUCKS / is fixed / rigged." But for this 5 year run, I wouldn't trade any of those created What Ifs? for the What If? we had the above all star lineup (including the best player and best PG).

From Bias, to Birds back and McHale's ankles, to Lewis, to Duncan and Pitino, to the Walker/Pierce brief resurgence, to Pierce taking time off because he hated the team, and everything in between; I'm glad we get to ask the What Ifs? about this team, and have enjoyed every moment of it. (If at times my blood pressure wasn't dangerously high).

Thank you Big 3 + RR + Doc

[Mystic Merlin]

Actually, allow me to me to formalize what I mean by pattern. Under the null hypothesis that the outcome of a deciding game between two "equal teams" is akin to the outcome of a balanced coin flip, then the probability of us losing so many of these games in a row is unlikely.

Assuming for the sake of argument that we've encountered these coin-flip situations (and I honestly don't understand why, say, the Perk injury in Game 6 of 2010 doesn't change the equation given the strengths/weaknesses of each team, or the Bradley injury (or Bosh's return to prominence in this game) this year, to give a few examples), and assuming that the unlikelihood that these results are wholly random (and they're not - they got outplayed badly in the fourth tonight), what are we to conclude? Maybe they weren't as good as the 2010 Lakers and 2012 Heat. Or maybe they were better or very close to one or both and lost as a result of some combination of luck, changing circumstances throughout the series, or lack of execution in exploiting advantages (or hiding disadvantages), or just plain missing a shot or two.

I'm not sure them losing two in a row, to use the two most prominent cases, to both LA and Miami is 'unlikely', either, since the coin-flip framework is necessarily not true. It makes too many assumptions about the constancy of the variables, and over instances multiple years apart at that.

EDIT - Jesus, this must read as the most boring conversation ever. I MAKE NO APOLOGIES.

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 10 June 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[kieckeredinthehead]

Actually, allow me to me to formalize what I mean by pattern. Under the null hypothesis that the outcome of a deciding game between two "equal teams" is akin to the outcome of a balanced coin flip, then the probability of us losing so many of these games in a row is unlikely. I am oversimplifying, but sometimes you have to consider the likelihood of such a sequence of events taking place as not a result of being snakebit, but rather we weren't good enough.

Home teams win games 7 about 75% of the time. Of course, not all their losses were game 7, but because you're only focussing on the series they lost, you're guaranteeing that the "deciding game" is a loss, unless they were champions. They won a lot more playoff series than they lost. Your null hypothesis is bad.

edit: let's formalize it and look at elimination games, games where if one of the teams won, one of the teams would be eliminated. They were 7-12 in those games. Even assuming all those games were coin flips, that's more like a 1 in 5 proposition.

Edited by kieckeredinthehead, 10 June 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

I think it's fair to assume some of their bad luck has to be factored in when you decide to build your team around three guys moving through their early and mid thirties and not their primes. Add that higher risk of injury and more frequent sub-par games as a result of fatigue or slowing reflexes that comes with age to the ordinary risk of injury and bad luck with the rest of the roster and you're bound to get more of these disappointments.

But that's a trade I'm glad Ainge made when he brought them in. These guys fit together like they were made to play together, they really fit into the Celtics family, and they've been a pleasure to watch. The way OKC has been put together is great too, but the Celtics didn't get that option when that '08 pick fell to #5, so how many of us are sorry it turned out the way it did. I was pulling for Ainge to build around Jefferson and the #5, and I was very wrong. Maybe a few minor personnel mistakes along the way, but certainly not the main ones.

[SemperFidelisSox]

It could be worse.

We could be Sonics fans.

[Nomar813]

It could be worse.

We could be Sonics fans.

You have to wonder who they're pulling for in the Finals. The bitterness against the Thunder meets the tackiest, douchiest, most hate-worthy assholes in western civilization. I'd imagine their fantasy scenario is an asteroid pulverizing the arena at tipoff.

[AimingForYoko]

It could be worse.

We could be Sonics fans.

Go zombie plague!

And apparently boxing died tonight too. So...there's that?

[Sheets]

Wow. I love Rondo. He is the polar opposite of that phony Wade. Watching his press conference it is clear why he stormed off the court. I want my players to be miserable after a loss.

This.

Not whiny, pissy, little brats, mind you. But just pissed off mofos. Tip your cap to the other team and stay pissed all summer.

What Would Larry Do?

[Sheets]

I agree that this does not help his cause with the league, but as I get older I find myself rooting more and more for guys with integrity. Guys like Rondo, Garnett, Pierce, and Allen. Fuck if they don't win. They are guys that I respect. And that matters more to me than winning in a league that appears to be driven by hype and how wide you can smile for the cameras.

(everything I post tonight is a rant and should be ignored tomorrow)

Sooooo, you mean you find yourself rooting for the Celtics? I don't mean to pick on you, but Rondo and KG left the court right away, and Paul and Ray stayed on the floor to congratulate the Heat. 50% of your heroes let you down!!!! The culture of the 2012 NBA is different than that of 10, 20, 30, etc years ago. Just look at the ridiculous no lense glasses fashion trend of late. Can you in a million years imagine Jordan, Magic, Larry, etc. donning such foolish outfits after a loss? I tend to like the "I'm so f'n pissed off at losing attitude".

And if I might steal a line from ya, "(everything I post tonight is a rant and should be ignored tomorrow)".

[DannyDarwinism]

And now, apparently, my wife's in labor, two weeks early. I blame Stern.

And fuck Mike Breen.

[TheoShmeo]

I don't live in Boston so others are more qualified than me to comment on this issue. But what I read here and see at games -- in person and on TV -- does not say spoiled to me.

I see passionate fans who truly appreciate their team. Noting that that the Cs have come up short in big moments doesn't mean you're spoiled. It's reality. I love the Cs as much as anyone I know, but I also know that they had 18 in their hands in 2010 and a trip to the finals this year, and in both cases the team stopped executing down the stretch, probably because they were tired. There are plenty of excuses, but these three wonderful warriors are old and are prone to running out of gas. I'll miss the hell out of this core but seeing the reality has nothing to do with being spoiled.

To me, spoiled fans fall in two categories. Asshole Yankee fans who are disconsolate any time their team doesn't win a title and view everything else as utter failure. And Braves fans who routinely fail to sell out playoff games and take sustained excellence for granted. Those teams are the poster boys for each category. I don't think Boston fans fit either category.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 10 June 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[RGREELEY33]

And now, apparently, my wife's in labor, two weeks early. I blame Stern.

And fuck Mike Breen.

Good luck. I hope Kevin Raymond Darwinism enjoys many Celtics teams as good as this one has been for 5 years!

[Sports Illustrator]

Officiating is a joke, our guys got mauled and there were no calls. Every time Lebrick went to the net he got a call.

[Al Zarilla]

This team was certainly an overachiever and easy to love. Going back though, the great pride and happiness for me exists for the teams that won it all, maybe by an order of magnitude over the teams that came close or overachieved. For example, the "now a steal by Bird, over to DJ for the layin!!!!!!" game was wonderful but they came up short of a title that year. Similarly, the Celtics starting off in the finals in 1985 with a 148 - 114 blowout of the Lakers, the Memorial Day Massacre I think it was called, was great, but they went on to lose that series.

Go Toonder.

[CaptainLaddie]

Man, you know what, fuck it. Miami will probably get their trophy at some point and they'll probably have a douchey party at their douchey stadium with their douchey fans and douchey PA announcer. I really don't give a fuck, I won't watch it.

I loved this team. And I felt like crying when I saw KG and Paul and Ray and Doc hugging at the end of it. Not "we lost" crying like when I was eight and Aaron Boone fucked our shit up, but weird bittersweet crying that I'm not articulate enough to try and explain.

I have no regrets.

Go Celtics.

Christ, you were EIGHT when that happened?

[CaptainLaddie]

Other than 2008, this team could not all get healthy at the same time at the right time.

2009: KG
2010: Perk + KG
2011: Rondo
2012: Two heart conditions + Bradley

Those are all huge injuries. If even just one of those doesn't happen, there's a good chance another banner gets raised. I know injuries are part of the game, but outside of the Blazers I can't think of a team that's been so fucked by them.

The C's have a very nice bright future in Rondo + Bradley. They need a big inside who can bang bodies with KG, but they are absolutely a contender for next year.

[Turrable]

Christ, you were EIGHT when that happened?

Yeah, and The Bends came out the day before I was born.

[lars10]

^and the messed up part is this doesn't even include Reggie Lewis and Len Bias. or Pierce and Allen this year for that matter..

The c's recent luck with injuries has been bad luck or no luck at all

[ilol@u]

I blame that collinsworth92 asshole who started the game 6 thread. Fucking douchebag.

[ThePrideofShiner]

Drunk posting is a bad idea.

Edited by ThePrideofShiner, 02 July 2012 - 02:09 PM.