72 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

Daniel Bard to AAA. #RedSox

https://twitter.com/#!/PeteAbe

I guess that answers that

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

55 IP. 38 walks, 8 HBP. And a crash to 5.6 K/9, after being over 9 last year.

I'm going to say this little experiment didn't work. Send him back to the pen, and keep him there.

[someoneanywhere]

MIght as well bet ya, SJH. My money is down to Pawtown to continue to work as a starter.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why? He was an abject failure as a starter in the minors for most of these same reasons, and it's been painfully obvious this year that he can't do it. It was awful watching him lose all sense of what the hell he was doing out there in Toronto.

It's over. He was wildly successful as a reliever, put him back into a role he's thrived in.

[someoneanywhere]

Oh, I'm not saying I disagree with you on the eventual outcome. After all, I saw him as a starter in the minors. I'm just saying that I'm betting the trip to AAA can only be to continue to work him as a starter.

[Koufax]

Who was brought up?

[Foulkey Reese]

McDonald came off the DL.

[Mike Greenwall]

Well, whatever the problem is, it's better to get it figured out in AAA than giving him the ball again. Hopefully, he can help out the pen, upon his return.

[Otis Foster]

I'm only hoping this experiment hasn't ruined him for good. There were overtones in his comment the other day that there had been some tinkering with his mechanics.

[deconstruction]

Why? He was an abject failure as a starter in the minors for most of these same reasons, and it's been painfully obvious this year that he can't do it. It was awful watching him lose all sense of what the hell he was doing out there in Toronto.

It's over. He was wildly successful as a reliever, put him back into a role he's thrived in.

Those aren't reasons not to have him continue to start in AAA. If it's mental>>mechanical, which he says it is, then he'll have time to work that out. If he can't, and he's not injured, then back to the pen.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

If they weren't trying to fix him as a starter, they wouldn't be sending him down, though I'm curious how they're doing it since he is out of options. Nevermind, I misread soxprospects.com

Who do they bump from the bullpen to make room for him if they do put him back there? It's not as though he'd automatically revert to 2009-2010 Dan Bard simply by changing roles. Whatever's wrong with him wouldn't simply fix itself with a change in job. And with the way he's pitching right now, he's not better than anyone presently in the bullpen.

Edited by Red(s)HawksFan, 05 June 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

So who takes Bard's turn in the rotation?

Currently carrying Nava, Podsednik, Byrd, McDonald, and Sweeney, correct?

[fineyoungarm]

So who takes Bard's turn in the rotation?

Currently carrying Nava, Podsednik, Byrd, McDonald, and Sweeney, correct?

Morales?

[dbn]

So who takes Bard's turn in the rotation?

Currently carrying Nava, Podsednik, Byrd, McDonald, and Sweeney, correct?

Of that group, Darnell has the most experience.

Matsuzaka is scheduled to pitch tonight in Pawtucket, I believe. Bard's next turn in the rotation would be on the 9th, so if D.M. pitches tonight he'd be on 4 days rest on Bard's next spot. I'd like to see D.M. start for Boston on Saturday; maybe pull him after 2 or 3 tonight?

[maufman]

Of that group, Darnell has the most experience.

Matsuzaka is scheduled to pitch tonight in Pawtucket, I believe. Bard's next turn in the rotation would be on the 9th, so if D.M. pitches tonight he'd be on 4 days rest on Bard's next spot. I'd like to see D.M. start for Boston on Saturday; maybe pull him after 2 or 3 tonight?

If Dice-K goes tonight, then pitches Saturday in Boston, that's only three days' rest. I don't think that's an option -- even if they radically shorten his start tonight, having Dice-K pitch on three days' rest at this point would be foolish. Therefore, we'll know in a few hours whether Dice-K is the man.

Part of the reason I favored giving Bard another shot was the dearth of other options (assuming Dice-K is not ready). With the Sox able to skip the #5 spot the next two times through the rotation, giving Bard one more start bought them nearly three weeks to figure out a longer-term solution, by which time Dice-K should be ready. That the Sox nonetheless chose to send Bard to Pawtucket now speaks volumes about the lack of confidence they have in him right now. Ugh.

Edited by maufman, 05 June 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[dbn]

Morales?

I had the same thought, but I'd imagine in that case they'd piece together a start from many bullpen parts. I hope they don't go that route. Sometimes you are forced to when a starter can't get out of the first couple of innings, but I hate when it's done on purpose. At least give a stretched-out starter a chance to got 5+.

[Clears Cleaver]

i love how everyone assumes Bard can immediately revert back to form as a reliever. There may be as good a chance he is toast as there is he can pitch like he did in the first 3/4 of 2011. And if he can get back, it might take him a year.

I always felt that any trade for a good starting pitcher would have centered on giving up bard (hopes that another organization might be stupid enough to think they could turn him inot a starter). Now? he has no trade value and has a ceiling as a good relief pitcher. Terrible decision

[dbn]

If Dice-K goes tonight, then pitches Saturday in Boston, that's only three days' rest. I don't think that's an option -- they have to scotch tonight start if he's going to take Bard's rotation spot.

Showoff. Counting to three better than I can.

Anyhow, what happens with Matsuzaka tonight will inform on who starts Saturday.

[fineyoungarm]

Showoff. Counting to three better than I can.

Anyhow, what happens with Matsuzaka tonight will inform on who starts Saturday.

That's most likely correct, unless they want to see one more start of DM in AAA. Then start Morales (I guess) on Saturday. If DM pitches tonight well enough to come to Boston, give him extra rest and start him against the White Sox on the 15th.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

i love how everyone assumes Bard can immediately revert back to form as a reliever. There may be as good a chance he is toast as there is he can pitch like he did in the first 3/4 of 2011. And if he can get back, it might take him a year.

I always felt that any trade for a good starting pitcher would have centered on giving up bard (hopes that another organization might be stupid enough to think they could turn him inot a starter). Now? he has no trade value and has a ceiling as a good relief pitcher. Terrible decision

I don't think he can immediately revert to his prior relieving form, which is why sending him back to AAA to do so makes the most sense to me.

[fineyoungarm]

i love how everyone assumes Bard can immediately revert back to form as a reliever. There may be as good a chance he is toast as there is he can pitch like he did in the first 3/4 of 2011. And if he can get back, it might take him a year.

I always felt that any trade for a good starting pitcher would have centered on giving up bard (hopes that another organization might be stupid enough to think they could turn him inot a starter). Now? he has no trade value and has a ceiling as a good relief pitcher. Terrible decision

CC - The unfortunate reality, I think, is that many closely watching this situation develop are worried - plain and simple - about whether he can re-evolve into any type of MLB pitcher.

[Van Everyman]

Why exactly is Bard's career over again?

Edit: which is to say, he did this back in the minors (with an ERA of over 7 as a starter) and things turned out ok for him as a reliever.

Edited by Van Everyman, 05 June 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[fineyoungarm]

Why exactly is Bard's career over again?

Red Sox pessimism in the DNA. With some added general Red Sox angst. Topped off by a lack of information.

[koufax32]

Why exactly is Bard's career over again?

Edit: which is to say, he did this back in the minors (with an ERA of over 7 as a starter) and things turned out ok for him as a reliever.

Because he is simply unable to succeed as a starting pitcher, maybe even as a MLB pitcher. His K/9 hasn't been the same since he lost his confidence. Mark my words, Cliff Lee will never live up to the hype. Wait, what are we talking about again?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

So who takes Bard's turn in the rotation?

I would think a pigglyback-start by Atchison-Morales-Albers, with Matsuzaka being activated to pitch the 15th.

[fineyoungarm]

If they weren't trying to fix him as a starter, they wouldn't be sending him down, though I'm curious how they're doing it since he is out of options. Nevermind, I misread soxprospects.com

Who do they bump from the bullpen to make room for him if they do put him back there? It's not as though he'd automatically revert to 2009-2010 Dan Bard simply by changing roles. Whatever's wrong with him wouldn't simply fix itself with a change in job. And with the way he's pitching right now, he's not better than anyone presently in the bullpen.

If he's not injured - is it realistic to think it should take no less than a month to get back on track? Best case - unless a "miraculous recovery"? By then, who knows what the starting and bull pen situations will be? (Heck. Matt Garza might be the #3 starter - and, yes, that is a shot at myself.) If somebody from the pen has proven to be serviceable as a #5, and the bullpen continues to excel, then it may not be a question of bumping, but of what do you do with him, now that he's back in the Boston bullpen.

All this requires some patience to watch - unfortunately, not a trait with which I have been blessed (in any useful amount).

[JimD]

Why exactly is Bard's career over again?

Edit: which is to say, he did this back in the minors (with an ERA of over 7 as a starter) and things turned out ok for him as a reliever.

No kidding. I would think that losing confidence as a young minor-league player who has never reached the show is far more damaging than having tasted success at the MLB level then struggling when your role changes. If Bard never recovers now, then I suspect he was bound to flame out eventually.

[TheoShmeo]

Red Sox pessimism in the DNA. With some added general Red Sox angst. Topped off by a lack of information.

I like the idea of the Sox letting Bard get used to relieving again in the minors. I hope that's what they're going to do as I don't have a lot of hope that Bard can be a good starter and I'd hate to see them bump up against the innings cap and then have to re-tool him again into a reliever for late in the season.

But the pessimism you're reading now is based on all of the factors you identified, to be sure, and Bard's results as a starter this year, some of the likely reasons for that (including his apparent inability to repeat his delivery) and, perhaps, Bard's 0-4, 10.64 ERA in September, 2011. Fried chicken or not, Bard was pretty bad during the meltdown.

That doesn't mean that he cannot and will not turn it around, and one bad month is just that. But it's not as if fans haven't been looking at Bad Bard for a while, even without Sunday's abomination.

[fineyoungarm]

No kidding. I would think that losing confidence as a young minor-league player who has never reached the show is far more damaging than having tasted success at the MLB level then struggling when your role changes. If Bard never recovers now, then I suspect he was bound to flame out eventually.

Given that last outing the mind reader in me bets that Bard did and did/not want to go to Pawtucket. His logic telling him go. His spirit and ego wishing to stay.

[trekfan55]

So who takes Bard's turn in the rotation?

Currently carrying Nava, Podsednik, Byrd, McDonald, and Sweeney, correct?

The problem I see with that list is that they need to call up one pitcher by Saturday, and the only one who has options on this list is entrenched in the starting lineup (and doing a very good job there).

[Al Zarilla]

One of the wonderful (NOT) aspects of the manager's job, to have to call a guy in and tell him he's being sent down. Hopefully Bard rebounds, maybe not like Doc Halladay when it happened to him , but to that of a useful pitcher again. What pitching coach will work with him at Pawtown?

[someoneanywhere]

One of the wonderful (NOT) aspects of the manager's job, to have to call a guy in and tell him he's being sent down. Hopefully Bard rebounds, maybe not like Doc Halladay when it happened to him , but to that of a useful pitcher again. What pitching coach will work with him at Pawtown?

How do you know Bard was called in and "told"? I'm betting there was a group conversation, that Bard and his agent were a part of, and that bandied back and forth over whether he was going back to the major-league pen or going down to work it out as a starter.

[teddywingman]

I like the idea of the Sox letting Bard get used to relieving again in the minors. I hope that's what they're going to do as I don't have a lot of hope that Bard can be a good starter and I'd hate to see them bump up against the innings cap and then have to re-tool him again into a reliever for late in the season.

But the pessimism you're reading now is based on all of the factors you identified, to be sure, and Bard's results as a starter this year, some of the likely reasons for that (including his apparent inability to repeat his delivery) and, perhaps, Bard's 0-4, 10.64 ERA in September, 2011. Fried chicken or not, Bard was pretty bad during the meltdown.

That doesn't mean that he cannot and will not turn it around, and one bad month is just that. But it's not as if fans haven't been looking at Bad Bard for a while, even without Sunday's abomination.

I pretty much agree with everything you just said, but I'd like to point out (again) that he has been bad in every September of his career.

[Al Zarilla]

How do you know Bard was called in and "told"? I'm betting there was a group conversation, that Bard and his agent were a part of, and that bandied back and forth over whether he was going back to the major-league pen or going down to work it out as a starter.

I hope agents aren't involved at that level.

[someoneanywhere]

I hope agents aren't involved at that level.

My man, they are always, always, always involved. Always.

[teddywingman]

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber
For now, #RedSox planning to stick with Bard as a starter.

Edited by teddywingman, 05 June 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[fineyoungarm]

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber
For now, #RedSox planning to stick with Bard as a starter.

Not all that different from "For now, Red Sox planning to stick with Bard as a pitcher".

[plusbrians]

Where's Aaron Cook? He's been on the DL since 5/6... Suppose he could make a start if needed.

[The Napkin]

So who takes Bard's turn in the rotation?

Jamie Moyer is available...

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Where's Aaron Cook? He's been on the DL since 5/6... Suppose he could make a start if needed.

He was supposed to throw a bullpen on Thursday, and then start a rehab program if all went well. Haven't seen or heard anything about it since.

[E5 Yaz]

McDonald, Byrd, Posednik and Nava? ... They should take a group photo, for posterity

[Hendu's Gait]

I would think a pigglyback-start by Atchison-Morales-Albers, with Matsuzaka being activated to pitch the 15th.

If one can go the above, why can't you limit the innings tonight, and go Matsu/Atchison/Morales/Albers PB on the ninth? (other than DM's traditional high pitch count per inning history)

[JimBoSox9]

If one can go the above, why can't you limit the innings tonight, and go Matsu/Atchison/Morales/Albers PB on the ninth? (other than DM's traditional high pitch count per inning history)

Or, Lester could start on normal rest.

[EastCoasterOutWest]

I thought the same thing until I realized Lester pitches tonight. That would be three days rest.

[JimBoSox9]

I thought the same thing until I realized Lester pitches tonight. That would be three days rest.

What the heck...you are right, of course, but for
some reason I can't figure out how that makes sense. Did the rotation get a mix recently or am I just that dumb?

(don't answer that)


Edit: nope, definitely just that dumb. Sigh.

Edited by JimBoSox9, 05 June 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Pearl Wilson]

McClure essentially admitted he was probably "one of the few" who thinks Daniel can start going forward.

[Rasputin]

McClure essentially admitted he was probably "one of the few" who thinks Daniel can start going forward.

I think he can, too, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes the most sense for him to do so.

Coming in to 2013 we'll have Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Doubront, and Lackey all intending to start. Depending on what happens with Doubront the rest of the season and what you expect of Lackey, it's probably going to be difficult to make the case that Bard is better. That assumes Buchholz rights the ship and expects Lackey to be at least average.

[Plympton91]

They need to make Bard a good pitcher again, then decide whether they need him to start or relieve.

Once he's fixed, what daniel Bard wants to do is just as important as what role they need him to fill. If he doesn't want to be a relief ace, then he won't be there mentally when they need him to be.

I hope he's not hurt, because to me, that's the most likely explanation for the loss of velocity and command.

[glennhoffmania]

The only other thing I can think of re: the velocity is that he's trying to throw 6-7 innings at 92-93 instead of feeling he can only go 4-5 innings at 96-97. And by holding back a little it's screwing up his timing and release. Otherwise I agree with P91.

[DanoooME]

I think he needs to start at Pawtucket even if he's going to end up a reliever. He needs the reps to work on his mechanical issues. He can work on things in side sessions, but he needs to apply them in games and even if he spends every inning in the stretch as a starter, at least he'll have the opportunity to maximize his chances of straightening out those mechanics.