307 replies to this topic

[502 to Right]

Ben says Youk no longer on the trade block.

“The reality is that there’s nothing going on,” Cherington said. “We’ve talked to several teams about several things, and teams have called to check in on Youk. That was a while back, probably right before he went on his rehab assignment. Right now we’re focused on getting Kevin going, he’s an important part of the team and we know that when he’s clicking and feeling good he makes our lineup very tough to pitch to.”

http://tracking.si.c.../?sct=mlb_t2_a6


But here's what Ben is thinking: "Youk really sucks right now and no team is willing to give up anything for him. We hope he gets better soon so we can trade him for something more than a bag of baseballs."

Edited by 502 to Right, 14 June 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[czar]

Olney said Kevin Youkilis, rumored to be on the trading block, doesn't have much value. He added it's a buyer's market in any deals involving Youkilis, where general managers are waiting for the Red Sox to become desperate enough to give up the infielder for little in return.

"The other GMs are saying because the Red Sox will get so little in return, other than clearing a spot for other players, they don't think the Red Sox are going to make a rush to make a move on Youkilis," Olney said.

Olney on WEEI (via OTM)

And it was only two weeks ago people were calling me crazy for suggesting Youkilis probably wouldn't keep OPSing 900 after his DL return and the Sox were likely aiming much lower in trade talks. Then of course, everyone goes all freaky with their "can we get Matt Garza or Zack Grienke for him? How about Billingsley and Guerra?"

At what point does Youkilis depress his trade value enough that saving the $8 million or whatever (which won't happen anyway, because the Sox will have to pay freight) and getting back a middling prospect is outweighed by just keeping Youkilis around to platoon/back up the corner infielders?

The easiest plan seems to be stick around and wait for a team to become desperate and do something stupid, but you can't count on that as much as you could 15 years ago.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

If the Sox determine that Middlebrooks should be the starter and Youk should come off the bench, is it really worth the cleared AAV and a prospect to move him at that point? Unless he's going to force his way out of town because he's not starting anymore, wouldn't he have more value as a bench member and the potential for a pick when he departs via free agency anyway? I mean, there has to be a hope that he's going to turn it around with the bat considering he's only 33. If they can't get anything good back in a trade and he wouldn't become a huge distraction if asked to come off the bench, what's the incentive to move him?

At least if they keep him there's a chance he provides some real value down the stretch and maybe even some compensation in the off season. Olney's report that teams are waiting for the Red Sox to "panic" and cave in order to clear the way for Middlebrooks is pretty ridiculous as they could just play Middlebrooks if that's their ultimate goal in trying to move Youkilis. There doesn't seem to be a ton of pressure on the Sox to push him out of town.

Edited by Snodgrass'Muff, 15 June 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[OttoC]

There's a two-fold problem here. One part is continually giving at bats to a player who is currently only producing at a 655 OPS rate and the other part is Middlebrooks not playing full-time. This will be even more complicated by the return of various outfielder who are currently on the DL. Is sending Middlebrooks to Pawtucket a reasonable option? That would get him the playing time but will he cope with a demotion? The end of interleague play will mean that they don't have to shuffle three first basemen in the line-up. It's looking more-and-more as if the Red Sox will need to put together a package to trade Youkilis. That could be done with excess bullpen parts but they still have to wait until they learn which pitchers are expandable.

[fineyoungarm]

Olney on WEEI (via OTM)

And it was only two weeks ago people were calling me crazy for suggesting Youkilis probably wouldn't keep OPSing 900 after his DL return and the Sox were likely aiming much lower in trade talks. Then of course, everyone goes all freaky with their "can we get Matt Garza or Zack Grienke for him? How about Billingsley and Guerra?"

At what point does Youkilis depress his trade value enough that saving the $8 million or whatever (which won't happen anyway, because the Sox will have to pay freight) and getting back a middling prospect is outweighed by just keeping Youkilis around to platoon/back up the corner infielders?

The easiest plan seems to be stick around and wait for a team to become desperate and do something stupid, but you can't count on that as much as you could 15 years ago.

With that, this thread may not be technically finished, but it is effectively finished.

[SoxScout]

JackMagruder: #Dbacks were asked for OF Parra when they checked in on #RedSox 3B Youkilis. Politely declined.

[bosockboy]

Really odd request with a similar player like Sweeney on the roster, Kalish coming and Crawford/Ellsbury close to returning. Parra is a nice player....don't see the fit though. Wonder if he's a piece Theo is interested in.

[Foulkey Reese]

The last days of Kevin Youkilis in a Boston Red Sox uniform may be approaching.
Trade dialogue surrounding the beleaguered Boston third baseman has intensified in the last 24 to 48 hours, major-league sources told FOXSports.com. The Red Sox have made clear that (a) Youkilis is available and (b) they are willing to include cash to facilitate a better player return. In response, a number of clubs have indicated that they have interest in acquiring the three-time All-Star.
“He’s being shopped everywhere,” said one high-ranking official with a National League club.

http://msn.foxsports...de-talks-061812

[Eric Van]

This organization may well have more than 40 MLB caliber players*, but there is one thing they don't have: starting pitching depth that can be shuttled between MLB and AAA at need. The current SP depth is illusory because if Morales is for real, or if Bard ends up resurrected as a frontline starter, you almost have to trade Dice-K to make room for one or the other in the rotation, and there's no place on the roster for Cook, either. Meanwhile, Carpenter got hurt, they converted both Mortensen and Tazawa to the pen, and Wilson was such a disappointment that he got converted as well.

(I suppose if they had another injury, they could stretch Padilla out as they did with Morales, with Bard or Melancon taking over the eighth ... but you don't want to go down that route unless you have to.)

If they're trading Youk, the only thing they really need is a guy good enough to put up a 4.50 - 5.00 ERA, with little upside left, but who has options remaining and can be stashed at Pawtucket. Otherwise, they should be looking for interesting low-minors types.

*Everyone on the 40-man roster except Britton, Pimentel, and Tejeda, plus Bailey, Crawford, Ellsbury, and Mark Prior. I was going to omit Gomez but Kevin Goldstein had an NL scout saying good things (specifically, that he was an MLB-caliber hitter) about him a week or two ago.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Obviously, some of the reason that Youkilis MUST be traded is the toxicity we're discussing in other threads, but is it really impossible that the best solution to this problem is to go back to the way things were planned coming out of spring training?

Yes, Youks has looked horrid, but so has Gonzalez to some extent, and everyone being yanked around isn't helping anyone get comfortable at the plate.

Clearly, Middlebrooks came out of the gate like a champ, but people have been watching lately, right? It's been 11 games since his last extra-base hit. He has 36 Ks against just 7 BBs. He looks like a very promising player, and I'm not saying he's definitely not the 3B of the future, but I don't think it would kill him, either, to go fatten up on some AAA pitching for a while again.

If anyone knows about getting yanked around, it's Youks, who rode that Pawtucket shuttle like a champ and seems to have survived with his ego intact. Let Will do some riding for a little while, see how Youks does with 15 straight games at 3B, and then re-evaluate.

[OCD SS]

Why is it that if a Red Sox prospect is not mashing the ball like an All-star the solution is to send him back to triple-A "until he's ready?" Prospects simply are going to have to adjust to the major league game, and here's the shocker, they actually need to play at major league level to do that.

Middlebrooks hit .333/ .380/ .677 in Pawtucket before being called up. There probably isn't really much he's going to gain by spending more time OPS'ing over 1.000 in AAA, and doing that doesn't mean he's not going to have any difficulty adjusting to MLB pitching when he would come back up.

Does anyone think that right now Youks looks like a better player than Middlebrooks in any phase of the game? For a team looking for wins, do we really want them to not start the better player due to veteran status?

[bosockboy]

This organization may well have more than 40 MLB caliber players*, but there is one thing they don't have: starting pitching depth that can be shuttled between MLB and AAA at need. The current SP depth is illusory because if Morales is for real, or if Bard ends up resurrected as a frontline starter, you almost have to trade Dice-K to make room for one or the other in the rotation, and there's no place on the roster for Cook, either. Meanwhile, Carpenter got hurt, they converted both Mortensen and Tazawa to the pen, and Wilson was such a disappointment that he got converted as well.

(I suppose if they had another injury, they could stretch Padilla out as they did with Morales, with Bard or Melancon taking over the eighth ... but you don't want to go down that route unless you have to.)

If they're trading Youk, the only thing they really need is a guy good enough to put up a 4.50 - 5.00 ERA, with little upside left, but who has options remaining and can be stashed at Pawtucket. Otherwise, they should be looking for interesting low-minors types.

*Everyone on the 40-man roster except Britton, Pimentel, and Tejeda, plus Bailey, Crawford, Ellsbury, and Mark Prior. I was going to omit Gomez but Kevin Goldstein had an NL scout saying good things (specifically, that he was an MLB-caliber hitter) about him a week or two ago.

I'd think Prior is getting very close to meeting this criteria. He has 19K's in 8IP at Pawtucket.....pretty clear his swing and miss stuff is back.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Who said Middlebrooks wasn't ready?

Turn it around: Why is it that if a Red Sox former All-star doesn't mash like an all-star in relatively limited at-bats after coming back from an injury then the solution is to ship him out of town or release him (as I've actually seen suggested, I believe).

As for who's better in any phase of the game, in his last 38 PAs, Middlebrooks is .212/.289/.212 with a BABIP of .259. In Youk's last 38 PA he's .121/.237/.152 with a BABIP of .154. There's a huge difference there? Will's three singles were the difference? (I just picked 38 PA because they lined up nicely in the database - whatever)

Middlebrooks can be sent down. Youkilis can't. If this logjam looks like it's going to continue for a couple more weeks because Ben doesn't want to give Youks away for a bag of baseballs or eat the money or whatever, all I'm saying is that relieving it by sending Will down for two weeks isn't going to kill him and might jumpstart Youkilis (and, by extension, Gonzalez).

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I'd think Prior is getting very close to meeting this criteria. He has 19K's in 8IP at Pawtucket.....pretty clear his swing and miss stuff is back.

Pretty sure that's why EV included him.

[OCD SS]

Turn it around: Why is it that if a Red Sox former All-star doesn't mash like an all-star in relatively limited at-bats after coming back from an injury then the solution is to ship him out of town or release him (as I've actually seen suggested, I believe).

Because Middlebrooks is in the Red Sox's long term plans, and Youks probably is not. As the OFers come back, Adrian Gonzalez is going to get pushed back to 1B and one of Youks or Middlebrooks is going to see their playing time decrease; since eventually Youks will not be with the team, is there any argument that clearing the position for Middlebrooks isn't the best course of action?The team is not going to see any noticeable performance decline by making the transition now, and they will also be able to address other issues that will strengthen the team. At this point it seems like the marginal increase in return that might be generated by Youks getting hot (over all of 15 games, as you suggest) is not worth the coming positional clog.

And for the record, I don't believe the scenario you suggest is actually a meme that gets repeated with any regularity.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

since eventually Youks will not be with the team, is there any argument that clearing the position for Middlebrooks isn't the best course of action?

No, there isn't. Which is why everything I was saying was predicated on the idea that "this logjam looks like it's going to continue for a couple more weeks because Ben doesn't want to give Youks away for a bag of baseballs or eat the money or whatever."

What is your solution? Release Youkilis tomorrow? Take whatever the best of the terrible deals available right now are? Just have him sit on the bench and see what happens while Middlebrooks plays and maybe use him as a pinch hitter?

I'm offering a suggestion for what to do in a scenario where both players are still the property of the Red Sox for an undetermined multiple-weeks future (i.e., till the trade deadline or something).

[TheoShmeo]

Will's numbers have indeed dipped. There's no way to really know but I think it's believable that irregular playing time and having to look over his shoulder at Youks has something to do with his diminishing numbers. This reminds me of Reddick's dip last season when Tito shifted him from a regular to a platoon player. These guys thrive on routine and playing every day, and upsetting that could be part of what we're now seeing with WMD.

I can understand the thought process behind sending WMD down given the flexibility they have with him, trying to get the most out of Youks and trying to enhance Youks' trade value. But if given the choice, I'd go all in with Middlebrooks and assume (OK, hope) that when he gets to play every day, his performance will improve.

[bosockboy]

Pretty sure that's why EV included him.

Yep I misunderstood that. That said, does Prior have an option? If so, he would meet EV's requirement of a SP who can shift back and forth from AAA as needed.

[Sprowl]

Will's numbers have indeed dipped. There's no way to really know but I think it's believable that irregular playing time and having to look over his shoulder at Youks has something to do with his diminishing numbers. This reminds me of Reddick's dip last season when Tito shifted him from a regular to a platoon player. These guys thrive on routine and playing every day, and upsetting that could be part of what we're now seeing with WMD.

I can understand the thought process behind sending WMD down given the flexibility they have with him, trying to get the most out of Youks and trying to enhance Youks' trade value. But if given the choice, I'd go all in with Middlebrooks and assume (OK, hope) that when he gets to play every day, his performance will improve.

I don't think we need to appeal to looking over his shoulder to explain why WMB isn't as hot as a firecracker anymore. Middlebrooks is having problems because the book on him has gotten around: he will chase sliders and changeups below the knees. He is making adjustments -- trying not to hack at all low pitches, and risking some called third strikes in the bargain -- and he has the bat speed and short stroke to stay alive, but it will take repetitions at the major-league level (ie, at a level where pitchers can command their offspeed stuff low in the strike zone).

I don't see any problem with keeping Gonzalez, Youkilis and Middlebrooks around to play the corner infield positions. It gives Valentine the personnel to make pinch-hitting or defensive replacements in the late innings, and it gives Middlebrooks a chance to observe, which I think he needs. Middlebrooks' defense is still raw: he has muffed several foul popups and made a few bad throws. He certainly has the physical tools, but his concentration and decision-making are still rookie behavior. Watching every other game from the bench is a benefit to his development, not an obstacle.

[E5 Yaz]

I think the "enhance Youk's trade value" argument is a non-starter. Sure, he probably will heat up somewhat again at some point; but presuming this means other teams will be inspired to up their bids for him seems like wishful thinking. They've seen enough of Youk this season to measure what is more important than his stat sheet ... Is his swing still there? Can he move well enough to play everyday at 3B, if that's what the other team needs? Another couple of weeks to pump the numbers won't change those evaluations.

A better return is going to come not from Youk's play, but from how much cash the Red Sox kick in. Any team trading for him is hoping to some extent that he plays better than he's shown. They're trading for track record and what they've seen thus far.

Edited by E5 Yaz, 19 June 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[OCD SS]

What is your solution? Release Youkilis tomorrow? Take whatever the best of the terrible deals available right now are? Just have him sit on the bench and see what happens while Middlebrooks plays and maybe use him as a pinch hitter?

IMO the best of the terrible deals is all the Sox can reasonably expect as return for Youks. He hasn't done anything this season that would pressure another team to really move on him. They can go along as Sprowl suggests for probably another week or two, but then Youks gets traded for what they can get to make room in the OF.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Yep I misunderstood that. That said, does Prior have an option? If so, he would meet EV's requirement of a SP who can shift back and forth from AAA as needed.

If Prior has an option left (I don't know), he would have to consent to any assignment as he has more than five years of big league service (a little over 6 to be exact). I know he's been out of the game, but would he consent to ride the shuttle if he proves himself capable of pitching at the big league level once again? If he makes it to the 25-man roster, you have to think he believes he's a big leaguer again and that some other team will want him on their big league roster if the Red Sox don't.

[E5 Yaz]

Another thing to consider in regards to a Youk trade is whether it's done in a vacuum. With the outfielders returning from the DL, and a couple of major league relief arms in Pawtucket (Bard, Tazawa), if the Sox want to maximize return in a Youk trade they have the pieces to make it a larger deal. Youk+Albers or Youk+Sweeney (these are just hypotheticals) -- plus a cash kick-in -- would conceivably bring a better return

[catomatic]

Who said Middlebrooks wasn't ready?

Turn it around: Why is it that if a Red Sox former All-star doesn't mash like an all-star in relatively limited at-bats after coming back from an injury then the solution is to ship him out of town or release him (as I've actually seen suggested, I believe).

As for who's better in any phase of the game, in his last 38 PAs, Middlebrooks is .212/.289/.212 with a BABIP of .259. In Youk's last 38 PA he's .121/.237/.152 with a BABIP of .154. There's a huge difference there? Will's three singles were the difference? (I just picked 38 PA because they lined up nicely in the database - whatever)

Middlebrooks can be sent down. Youkilis can't. If this logjam looks like it's going to continue for a couple more weeks because Ben doesn't want to give Youks away for a bag of baseballs or eat the money or whatever, all I'm saying is that relieving it by sending Will down for two weeks isn't going to kill him and might jumpstart Youkilis (and, by extension, Gonzalez).

This makes a metric ton of sense to me on many levels. That said: Can anyone speak to what they see as encouraging signs in Youks' game of late? I am working at night these days, so I don't see a lot of games. I know that some scouts are quoted as saying he's cooked, but I'm curious about bat speed, general agility, plate discipline etc. What, if anything, are people seeing that might suggest the period between now and the deadline might promise enough flashes of old Youk to bring a better return?

[TheoShmeo]

I don't think we need to appeal to looking over his shoulder to explain why WMB isn't as hot as a firecracker anymore. Middlebrooks is having problems because the book on him has gotten around: he will chase sliders and changeups below the knees. He is making adjustments -- trying not to hack at all low pitches, and risking some called third strikes in the bargain -- and he has the bat speed and short stroke to stay alive, but it will take repetitions at the major-league level (ie, at a level where pitchers can command their offspeed stuff low in the strike zone).

I wasn't saying that Youks' presence explains why WMD isn't performing like he did at first. And I agree that the factors you mentioned are likely big contributors. Of course, no one could expect WMD to maintain his torrid initial pace.

Still, I think that irregular playing time and having to worry about Youks are part of the overall mix. As you said, just getting the repetitions will help, and he'll get more of those when Youks is gone.

[DaubachmanTurnerOD]

Yep I misunderstood that. That said, does Prior have an option? If so, he would meet EV's requirement of a SP who can shift back and forth from AAA as needed.

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Prior is being considered as a starter, so he wouldn't fit that element of the equation. His appearances have all been of the 1/1+ inning variety (8 innings in 6 games, per mL central). I suspect they are attempting to ressurect him as a relief pitcher, and hoping he stays healthy.

[Sprowl]

This makes a metric ton of sense to me on many levels. That said: Can anyone speak to what they see as encouraging signs in Youks' game of late? I am working at night these days, so I don't see a lot of games. I know that some scouts are quoted as saying he's cooked, but I'm curious about bat speed, general agility, plate discipline etc. What, if anything, are people seeing that might suggest the period between now and the deadline might promise enough flashes of old Youk to bring a better return?

On defense, Youkilis has looked very good at first base, and good enough at third base. He moves quickly, stretches well, and doesn't seem to grimace after exertion the way he did before going on the DL. At the bat he is not producing, but he doesn't look as awkward or pained as he did before.

[catomatic]

I don't think we need to appeal to looking over his shoulder to explain why WMB isn't as hot as a firecracker anymore. Middlebrooks is having problems because the book on him has gotten around: he will chase sliders and changeups below the knees. He is making adjustments -- trying not to hack at all low pitches, and risking some called third strikes in the bargain -- and he has the bat speed and short stroke to stay alive, but it will take repetitions at the major-league level (ie, at a level where pitchers can command their offspeed stuff low in the strike zone).

I don't see any problem with keeping Gonzalez, Youkilis and Middlebrooks around to play the corner infield positions. It gives Valentine the personnel to make pinch-hitting or defensive replacements in the late innings, and it gives Middlebrooks a chance to observe, which I think he needs. Middlebrooks' defense is still raw: he has muffed several foul popups and made a few bad throws. He certainly has the physical tools, but his concentration and decision-making are still rookie behavior. Watching every other game from the bench is a benefit to his development, not an obstacle.

Honest, not snarky question: How long was it after his call-up that Youkilis stopped flailing away at breaking stuff low and away?

[Sprowl]

Honest, not snarky question: How long was it after his call-up that Youkilis stopped flailing away at breaking stuff low and away?

Honest, not snarky answer: I dunno. I was working 24-7 for most of 2002 through 2005, and didn't see Youkilis hit regularly until I got MLB.tv in 2007.

[catomatic]

Honest, not snarky answer: I dunno. I was working 24-7 for most of 2002 through 2005, and didn't see Youkilis hit regularly until I got MLB.tv in 2007.

Glad to hear that he's looking good around the bag and maybe smoother at the plate. I remember it taking him a long time to lay off that (low and away) stuff after everyone figured out he was vulnerable to it.

I may be guilty of a combination of nostalgia and greed, but if he can get his trend going upwards a little bit, I think it might help his trade value incrementally, and everyone can feel better down the road about both his departure and his future feasting on less breaking stuff in the NL. Ross' return means we have another RHH with power back on the bench, and it might be time to send WMB to McCoy to work very specifically on a small bandwidth of pitch recognition.

[czar]

I may be guilty of a combination of nostalgia and greed, but if he can get his trend going upwards a little bit, I think it might help his trade value incrementally, and everyone can feel better down the road about both his departure and his future feasting on less breaking stuff in the NL.

Honestly, I think there's about an equal chance of Youkilis further suppressing his trade value if the Sox keep playing him every day. He may be playing below his career numbers, but he's certainly followed a negative trend the last few years, which should raise a lot of red flags.

I'm not saying any of this to bag on Youkilis in the slightest, but it's clear that nostalgia is causing some people to overrate him or be otherwise overconfident in a big bounceback going forward. IMO, you can make an easy argument (to the "playing him everyday will enhance his trade value" crowd) that giving him WMB's ABs may only further reinforce the belief that he's not worth a middling prospect even if the Sox pay half of his freight. The longer he struggles away with a 640 OPS, the more likely it is that a team will be reluctant to pull the trigger on a Youkilis trade which (at the present) looks more like a lottery ticket than a move to get a core contributor for a contending team.

Not to mention the more you play him the more likely he breaks down and hits the DL. Which should probably be a pretty real concern for the FO.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Not to mention the more you play him the more likely he breaks down and hits the DL. Which should probably be a pretty real concern for the FO.

Perhaps if they can't get a worthwhile return in a trade, this is the best thing to do with him. Play him everyday for the next 2-3 weeks. If he breaks out of his slump, all the better. If he breaks down or continues to struggle, DL him Lowell-style, and wait until 9/1 to activate him (or sooner should another injury necessitate it).

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I wasn't watching last night except for a particularly pleasing bit when I happened to catch Papi's and Salty's bombs - a big lead means let the wife watch what she wants. But I did see that Middlebrooks came in for Youks and promptly hit one out, after Youks having a two-hit game.

Youks just pulled because it was a blow out? Any talk of that becoming an honest rivalry (maybe in a good way)? Just seemed like Middlebrooks really capitalized on his at-bat and maybe there's a chance that the two of them drive each other to excel in a Spring Training kind of way.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Youks just pulled because it was a blow out? Any talk of that becoming an honest rivalry (maybe in a good way)? Just seemed like Middlebrooks really capitalized on his at-bat and maybe there's a chance that the two of them drive each other to excel in a Spring Training kind of way.

It seemed simply precautionary -- Youk charged out of the box hard to stretch his hit to a double, and (to my eyes) slid into the bag harder than one would have wanted.

Just one of those slides where the front foot catches the front of the bag and sends a jolt through to the hip instead of having it budge up and slide over the top the bag. He seemed to be moving fine afterward, but with his injury history the impact still made me cringe a little.

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 21 June 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[AB in DC]

Regardless of how Youks is playing now, can anyone really argue that Middlebrooks has played well enough to "win" the starting job, right now, for this year?

Sure, some additional major league experience can help him in the long run, but some more PAs could help Youks break out of his slump, too. Unless you think Youks is just plain cooked, why would the Sox trade a valuable piece of the puzzle for another question mark? Obviously the calculus changes if the teams falls out of contention, but no one here is saying that.

[PrometheusWakefield]

Regardless of how Youks is playing now, can anyone really argue that Middlebrooks has played well enough to "win" the starting job, right now, for this year?

Sure, some additional major league experience can help him in the long run, but some more PAs could help Youks break out of his slump, too. Unless you think Youks is just plain cooked, why would the Sox trade a valuable piece of the puzzle for another question mark? Obviously the calculus changes if the teams falls out of contention, but no one here is saying that.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Yes, I think Middlebrooks has played well enough to win the starting job. He's currently sporting a .863 OPS after being above 1.000 in AAA. That's slightly better than Youkilis was last year, and of course much better than Youkilis has been this year. My bet would be that Middlebrooks will probably be better than Youkilis for the rest of the year.

Thus, Youkilis is not "a valuable piece of the puzzle." He's an obstacle to a better player playing every day. You trade him because if you can get something valuable in return then you've made your team better both by addition and subtraction.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I also don't see why the Red Sox would get rid of what could be a valuable piece for a "B" prospect. First, don't the Sox have enough "B" level prospects to begin with? Second, isn't that the point of having options - to be able to preserve roster flexibility? I'm not saying playing in Pawtucket for a few weeks is going to help Middlebrooks, but he wouldn't be the first to have to step aside for a few weeks and he won't be the last.

OTOH, there is one option that I would consider if I were the Sox. Given the fact that they have a cap on what they can spend in the draft, if they could get back a highly rated prospect by picking up most or all of Youk's salary - that's kind of like paying overslot last year. Reckon the odds of that happening are pretty slim though.

[pokey_reese]

I also don't see why the Red Sox would get rid of what could be a valuable piece for a "B" prospect. First, don't the Sox have enough "B" level prospects to begin with? Second, isn't that the point of having options - to be able to preserve roster flexibility? I'm not saying playing in Pawtucket for a few weeks is going to help Middlebrooks, but he wouldn't be the first to have to step aside for a few weeks and he won't be the last.

OTOH, there is one option that I would consider if I were the Sox. Given the fact that they have a cap on what they can spend in the draft, if they could get back a highly rated prospect by picking up most or all of Youk's salary - that's kind of like paying overslot last year. Reckon the odds of that happening are pretty slim though.

I agree with pretty much all of this, but I think that getting a B/B+ prospect back in return for Youk is already taking into account the Sox paying most or all of his salary. No one is going to give up a blue-chipper unless he can get hot for a few weeks at least, since the team getting him has a good chance of getting 0 return on their investment right now.

[Average Reds]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Yes, I think Middlebrooks has played well enough to win the starting job. He's currently sporting a .863 OPS after being above 1.000 in AAA. That's slightly better than Youkilis was last year, and of course much better than Youkilis has been this year. My bet would be that Middlebrooks will probably be better than Youkilis for the rest of the year.

Thus, Youkilis is not "a valuable piece of the puzzle." He's an obstacle to a better player playing every day. You trade him because if you can get something valuable in return then you've made your team better both by addition and subtraction.

I guess this is where I differ from you.

I think Middlebrooks will be a solid MLB player and he's the future at third. But just like Reddick last year, pitchers are starting to learn where the holes in his swing are and they'll soon begin to ruthlessly exploit those holes until Middlebrooks learns to adjust. There's nothing wrong with this and it's not a criticism of Middlebrooks at all. But I have no confidence that he'll be more productive than Youks for the remainder of the year.

Assuming he stays healthy - and yeah, that's a big if - I expect Youks to start hitting and playing much better. And because I don't expect the Sox to get anything significant in return for him right now, I think that's his greatest value to the team. If Middlebrooks has to go back down or sit for stretches to let this happen, it's not the end of the world. And if I'm wrong and Youkilis struggles, Middlebrooks can always take over.

I just don't see a downside to playing Youkilis regularly until he either snaps out of his funk and can be moved for fair value or the team concludes that he's toast and they can't wait. But we're clearly not there yet.

Edit: Middlebrooks trying hard tonight to make me erase my entire post.

Edited by Average Reds, 21 June 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[86spike]

The downside of giving Youks lots of rope is he
hangs himself and the team with it by sucking.

That's the risk they're trying to assess and mitigate.

[bosockboy]

If the Indians are the most interested party, I wonder if we could extract LaPorta for Youk. He'd be an ideal replacement for Papi at DH.

[bosox79]

Seems like WMB will have a bad 15-2 PA stretch, people will mention it, and then he'll hit 2-3 hrs.

Through todays game
AAA 100 PA .333/.380/.677 9 hr 7bb 18k
MLB 144 PA .316/.352/.551 8hr 7bb 39k 1hbp

and i know its stupid to merge but...
2012 245 PA .323/.363/.603 17hr 14bb 55k 1 hbp

The amount of improvement/progress hes shown year to year is amazing. I dont see how you can keep him out of the line up, even if pitchers adjust. Hell have to deal with that sooner or later anyway so why not sooner?

[radsoxfan]

If the Indians are the most interested party, I wonder if we could extract LaPorta for Youk. He'd be an ideal replacement for Papi at DH.

I know he was highly touted and has put up big minor league numbers, but in over 1000 major league at bats from age 24-27, LaPorta has an OPS of 0.697. And he offers zero defensive value.

I'd rather give Lavarnway a chance at that role than LaPorta.

[bosockboy]

I know he was highly touted and has put up big minor league numbers, but in over 1000 major league at bats from age 24-27, LaPorta has an OPS of 0.697. And he offers zero defensive value.

I'd rather give Lavarnway a chance at that role than LaPorta.

That's the type of guy we will get for Youk though.....I agree on Lavarnway but I'd still take LaPorta.

[Savin Hillbilly]

I'd rather give Lavarnway a chance at that role than LaPorta.

Or if he can possibly keep this up, Nava.

[Wingack]

If the Indians are the most interested party, I wonder if we could extract LaPorta for Youk. He'd be an ideal replacement for Papi at DH.

What exactly about the 27 year-old Laporta is it that you think can replace one of the still best hitters in baseball?

[foulkehampshire]

That's the type of guy we will get for Youk though.....I agree on Lavarnway but I'd still take LaPorta.

Wouldn't it be better to trade for somebody with upside? Or even potential future upside? LaPorta has shown none of this.

Cash considerations would be more useful than LaPorta.

[bosockboy]

What exactly about the 27 year-old Laporta is it that you think can replace one of the still best hitters in baseball?

You could say that about anybody....tough act to follow. Just think he's worth taking a chance on as a late bloomer....like Ortiz in 2003.

[Wingack]

You could say that about anybody....tough act to follow. Just think he's worth taking a chance on as a late bloomer....like Ortiz in 2003.

Taking a chance on a guy is different then thinking he is the ideal fit to replace Ortiz.

[foulkehampshire]

You could say that about anybody....tough act to follow. Just think he's worth taking a chance on as a late bloomer....like Ortiz in 2003.

Except that Ortiz was already a career .266/.348/.461 hitter before he came to the Sox. He didn't exactly come out of nowhere.