202 replies to this topic

[TheoShmeo]

I agree with Toe Nash that they ought to let Pedroia continue to play if he's able to do so. If he goes back to the suckhole, then DL him and give him the chance to heal. Particularly with Punto as the alternative, I can't see forcing Pedroia to the DL just when he seems to be turning the corner. This most recent injury might be a game changer and my comment assumes that they conclude that he's OK to continue.

Did anyone else wince when Bobby said that Pedroia “was more fearful than he was injured’’? I'm far from a Bobby Basher but that seemed like a turn of phrase that could get under Pedey's skin...and that served no purpose.

[reggiecleveland]

I have failed to jump on the Tito for Saint bandwagon, but Bobby did handle that poorly. Tito would have said something like, "You know Pedey he wants to play, he wants to win, but he is a lot smarter than you guys think he knows we have a good pen, and Punty (or whatever nickname Tito wold have given Punto) can pick em with the best, so he took precaution and took himself out. It's a long season and the little bastard wants to be around at the end."

[joe dokes]

I agree with Toe Nash that they ought to let Pedroia continue to play if he's able to do so. If he goes back to the suckhole, then DL him and give him the chance to heal. Particularly with Punto as the alternative, I can't see forcing Pedroia to the DL just when he seems to be turning the corner. This most recent injury might be a game changer and my comment assumes that they conclude that he's OK to continue.

Did anyone else wince when Bobby said that Pedroia “was more fearful than he was injured’’? I'm far from a Bobby Basher but that seemed like a turn of phrase that could get under Pedey's skin...and that served no purpose.

While I agree that its just as likely that he was turnign a corner as anything else, I really dont see the problem with what BV said. Its no different than when Beckett got checked out. If that comment "got under pedey's skin," then Pedey's skin is simply too thin. (Unless BV was simply lying and Pedroia came up to him in the dugout and said, "Jeez, Skip, I think I just Youk'd my thumb, I'm f---ked.") Its a slightly wordier version of "we dont think he re-injured it; just a precaution."

The same affliction that tends to run people towrads, "Oh, crap, the doctors screwed up again," also runs towards "Oh my God, the manager used real words....." So the manager can't use "fearful" because someone might think that he's calling Pedroia a wimp?

And I suppose when he joked that Kalish "did catch 3 of 4" last night, he's going to "crush the kid's confidence."

Edited by joe dokes, 20 June 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[JimD]

I have failed to jump on the Tito for Saint bandwagon, but Bobby did handle that poorly. Tito would have said something like, "You know Pedey he wants to play, he wants to win, but he is a lot smarter than you guys think he knows we have a good pen, and Punty (or whatever nickname Tito wold have given Punto) can pick em with the best, so he took precaution and took himself out. It's a long season and the little bastard wants to be around at the end."

Given some of what's gone on in the clubhouse so far, perhaps Valentine decided it wasn't worth starting what would undoubtedly become a messy public battle with the team's de facto captain.

[Plympton91]

Did anyone else wince when Bobby said that Pedroia “was more fearful than he was injured’’? I'm far from a Bobby Basher but that seemed like a turn of phrase that could get under Pedey's skin...and that served no purpose.

That's not what BV said; he said he was "fearful that he was injured." The next thing BV said was that "he got jammed by a 95 mph fastball and the bat slammed against the thumb."

[E5 Yaz]

That's not what BV said; he said he was "fearful that he was injured." The next thing BV said was that "he got jammed by a 95 mph fastball and the bat slammed against the thumb."

“He was more fearful than he was injured,” Valentine said. “He thought it might have been a recurrence. We’ll see how he is tomorrow.”

http://espn.go.com/b...einjuring-thumb

“It’s more third-hand [information] but he was more fearful than he was injured,’’ managerBobby Valentine said. “The ball was an inside pitch that pushed the bat back in his hand the way he didn’t want it to be pushed back."

http://www.boston.co...ed_right_thumb/

Edited by E5 Yaz, 20 June 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[Plympton91]

http://espn.go.com/b...einjuring-thumb

http://www.boston.co...ed_right_thumb/

I have the postgame taped, and I just rewatched it. The quote is from the NESN interview room, not something he said privately to a reporter. To me, he clearly said, "that." Moreover, when you read the quotes about the "bat being pushed back" and "thought it might have been a recurrnace," then using "that" makes a hell of a lot more sense in context than using "than."

The ESPN quote you cite is also wrong in that BV said, "It's more third-hand, but he said he was more fearful that he was injured." So, regardless of whether it was "that" or "than," Valentine was quoting what Pedroia had told someone else, not offering his own interpretation of Pedroia's decision to come out of the game. So, the idea that Valentine insulted Pedroia, as was stated up above, is poppycock.

[E5 Yaz]

"It’s early for a complete update, of course,” Sox manager Bobby Valentine said. “He said — this is third-hand — that he was more fearful than he was injured. The ball was an inside pitch that pushed the bat back in his hand the way he didn’t want it to. He pushed back. It was about 95 mph. And he thought it might have been a reoccurrence. We’ll see how it is (today).”

http://www.bostonher...leid=1061140133

I don't think it was insulting in the least. I think it's an indication that Pedroia had legitimate initial concern that something might have gotten worse (The "fearful" part) and this was a bigger concern than actually thinking he re-injured his thumb

[joe dokes]

http://espn.go.com/b...einjuring-thumb




http://www.boston.co...ed_right_thumb/

Someone please explain to me why the word "fearful" (or the phrase "more fearful than he was injured") seems to be causing so much angst? Or is causing angst about causing angst.

[AimingForYoko]

Someone please explain to me why the word "fearful" (or the phrase "more fearful than he was injured") seems to be causing so much angst? Or is causing angst about causing angst.

I believe that it's because the phrase "more fearful than he was injured" implies that it's all in Dustin's head, his thumb is fine---he's just afraid. All least that's what I hear anyway.

As opposed to ""fearful that he was injured" which makes me think that "he was afraid that he was injured"-plain and simple.

Edited by AimingForYoko, 20 June 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[joe dokes]

I believe that it's because the phrase "more fearful than he was injured" implies that it's all in Dustin's head, his thumb is fine---he's just afraid. All least that's what I hear anyway.

As opposed to ""fearful that he was injured" which makes me think that "he was afraid that he was injured"-plain and simple.

Seriously? I heard it driving home from the game, and I interpreted it "he worried that he hurt it again."
That it was in anyway not 'real' never occurred to me.

[TheoShmeo]

I didn't make my point very well above. What I was trying to convey was that Bobby's candor and lack of filter sometimes cause him to say things that are just not helpful and that could backfire on him. There was no reason why he had to inject "fear" into the conversation. My assumption is that in the culture of most clubhouses in sports, going there might hurt and couldn't help.

And it's not as if Bobby is operating with a clean slate with Pedroia. Pedey already came out with his "that's not how we do things here" comment. Talking about Pedroia's mental state reminded me of his comments on whether Buchholz would pitch on Sunday and other times when I felt that Bobby said things that were probably better left unsaid.

None of this is a surprise with Bobby and it's not a huge thing in this case. Yeah, I winced a bit when I heard and read that, but I'm much more concerned about Pedroia's health than what Bobby said about it.

[terrynever]

I didn't make my point very well above. What I was trying to convey was that Bobby's candor and lack of filter sometimes cause him to say things that are just not helpful and that could backfire on him. There was no reason why he had to inject "fear" into the conversation. My assumption is that in the culture of most clubhouses in sports, going there might hurt and couldn't help.

And it's not as if Bobby is operating with a clean slate with Pedroia. Pedey already came out with his "that's not how we do things here" comment. Talking about Pedroia's mental state reminded me of his comments on whether Buchholz would pitch on Sunday and other times when I felt that Bobby said things that were probably better left unsaid.

None of this is a surprise with Bobby and it's not a huge thing in this case. Yeah, I winced a bit when I heard and read that, but I'm much more concerned about Pedroia's health than what Bobby said about it.

It has surprised me all season that Valentine has such little control of his language. He uses the wrong words, or states something loosely, leaving interpretation up to the fans and media. For a guy whose last job was at ESPN, you would think Valentine could articulate what he means in a more concise fashion.

[joe dokes]

I didn't make my point very well above. What I was trying to convey was that Bobby's candor and lack of filter sometimes cause him to say things that are just not helpful and that could backfire on him. There was no reason why he had to inject "fear" into the conversation. My assumption is that in the culture of most clubhouses in sports, going there might hurt and couldn't help.

And it's not as if Bobby is operating with a clean slate with Pedroia. Pedey already came out with his "that's not how we do things here" comment. Talking about Pedroia's mental state reminded me of his comments on whether Buchholz would pitch on Sunday and other times when I felt that Bobby said things that were probably better left unsaid.

I see your point, but I think people are really getting hung up on the word "fear." Far more than pedroia is likely to. Tell me this isn't Today's Talk Radio Talking Point.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It has surprised me all season that Valentine has such little control of his language. He uses the wrong words, or states something loosely, leaving interpretation up to the fans and media. For a guy whose last job was at ESPN, you would think Valentine could articulate what he means in a more concise fashion.

He's always been this way. He talks first without taking into consideration the full impact of his words. That worked well for him at ESPN because at the end of the day, really who gave a shit what he had to say on TV? But he's careless with his words and now he's in a position to manage a baseball team and it's been an uncomfortable clash at times.

[glennhoffmania]

It has surprised me all season that Valentine has such little control of his language. He uses the wrong words, or states something loosely, leaving interpretation up to the fans and media. For a guy whose last job was at ESPN, you would think Valentine could articulate what he means in a more concise fashion.

Sometimes I get the feeling that he's doing it on purpose. He seems to welcome a little controversy and he likes to stir shit up. He had two or three chances to smooth over the Youkilis incident and every time he chose to throw more gas on the fire.

I also think that SJH is correct and sometimes he simply has a big mouth.

[joe dokes]

Now BV says Pedroia was "shocked." Yesterday he was "afraid." What will it be tomorrow?

http://www.boston.co...ndex_ExtraBases

I don’t they took any X-rays or anything, no, or any MRI, there appeared to be no swelling, like I said that ball just got in on him yesterday and I think he said he was a little more shocked than he was injured.”

[Corsi]

Pedroia is taking infield practice. Seems fine.

https://twitter.com/...532111501852674

[Corsi]

Pedroia says he will be back in the lineup tomorrow. Admitted he was scared at first following the swing last night but feels fine.

https://twitter.com/...537136399679488

[trekfan55]

Well, turns out he was scared.

Pedroia: "It kind of freaked me out more than anything". Says he's available

Evan Drelich

Pedroia says he will be back in the lineup tomorrow. Admitted he was scared at first following the swing last night but feels fine.

Tony Lee

So what are we being so worked up about?

Edited by trekfan55, 20 June 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[joe dokes]

"scared at first"

OK. Can we put this particular episode into the circular file now?

Won't be long before Nick tweets about how scaredy-cat Sox like Pedroia aren't tough enough.

Edited by joe dokes, 20 June 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[koufax32]

This discussion is the baseball equivalent of a guy saying to his gf: "you cut your hair? It looks great!" With her responding "what, you didn't like it before?"

Everyone has tweaked something at one time where they were afraid they may have really hurt it. Nothing to see here but windmills.

Edited by koufax32, 20 June 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[trekfan55]

Recently:

Bobby V: "There's nothing like the spirit and the talent of Dustin Pedroia."

Mcdonald

[mabrowndog]

So what are we being so worked up about?

Pedroia's season numbers peaked May 12 with a .321/.385/.529/.913 line in 33 games.

In 29 games since, he's at .195/.242/.237/.479

Since returning from his non-DL stint on June 5, he's hitting .155/.219/.207/.426 in 14 games.

Both of the above include his 0-for-5 collar tonight with 4 LOB.

That's what we're being so worked up about. He's been an offensive black hole for 5 weeks while hitting 2nd in the lineup. His "I'm fine, laser show" stubbornness, and the "nothing to see here" mantra being voiced in this forum, are obscuring the fact that he has sucked worse than anyone else in the Sox lineup for the entire second half of the season to date.

Edited by mabrowndog, 21 June 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[trekfan55]

Pedroia's season numbers peaked May 12 with a .321/.385/.529/.913 line in 33 games.

In 29 games since, he's at .195/.242/.237/.479

Since returning from his non-DL stint on June 5, he's hitting .155/.219/.207/.426 in 14 games.

Both of the above include his 0-for-5 collar tonight with 4 LOB.

That's what we're being so worked up about. He's been an offensive black hole for 5 weeks while hitting 2nd in the lineup. His "I'm fine, laser show" stubbornness, and the "nothing to see here" mantra being voiced in this forum, are obscuring the fact that he has sucked worse than anyone else in the Sox lineup for the entire second half of the season to date.

To clarify, my question was to the fact that everyone was worried that BobbyV mentioned he was more scared than hurt, and how that would affect Pedroia. The fact that he admitted as much is what made me say that.

I have no doubts that his stats are hurting the team.

Edited by trekfan55, 24 June 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[tims4wins]

Out again today

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Seems like a different injury from the adductor, so that's "good". Unlike his stats and swing, which are more or less "bad".

[trekfan55]

Could change but from what I'm told chances of Pedroia playing vs Yanks not good. Pedroia injured a different area of right thumb Tues..

Warning: It's Cafardo

If he cannot play this weekend, and with the All Star Break coming, he really should go on the DL if only to help the team bring up another player. If it is Ciriaco they need to make a 40 man move though.

[gatorgurl67]

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber
Dustin Pedroia headed to 15-day disabled list, according to major league source #RedSox

[AimingForYoko]

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber
Dustin Pedroia headed to 15-day disabled list, according to major league source #RedSox

Well at least they didn't screw this up further. Maybe they can call someone else up for the Yankees series now.

[Joe Shlabotnick]

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber
Dustin Pedroia headed to 15-day disabled list, according to major league source #RedSox

So is the new thumb injury worse than the one he is already dealing with, or is it the combination of the two that will send him to the DL, assuming this report is accurate?

[ThatsMyPeskyPole]

So now what? Ciriaco? Infield of Punto, Aviles and a hamstrung Middlebrooks- Oh My!

[fineyoungarm]

So is the new thumb injury worse than the one he is already dealing with, or is it the combination of the two that will send him to the DL, assuming this report is accurate?

DRShoes probaby will prove me wrong, but I'm not a big believer in coincidences - as in he keeps injuring his thumb in different ways and different places by chance. Does an orthpedic injury to a part of the body increase the propensity to injure the same part in another way? If so, that would not alone be a reason to DL him. However, if that is a known phenomenon, it sure was a good reason given the way he was struggling at the plate.

[irinmike]

Just put everyone on the DL and get it over with. I have never seen anything like what has been going on with injured players.

[StuckOnYouk]

For the life of me I'll never understand why it took so long to DL him. How long did he have to suck since he first injured his thumb before they realized he was killing the team and they were just prolonging the time before he actually gets healthy and productive.

Is there a worse organization in sports regarding evaluating injuries and how to handle them?

[yecul]

Apparently not.

DL him. Get the surgery now if the alternative is he's going to suck upon return. Hurt crappy June Pedroia isn't too hard to replace. Good Pedroia is something to protect. I'd write off 2012 if necessary.

Of course, they will put him on the DL, he will come back quickly and suck. Struggle through the rest of the year, rest, and have the issue pop back up in spring training. They will balk and hem and haw. He'll have surgery and miss a bunch of time having his comeback delayed with setbacks and he'll never really be the same. It's a lock.

[lexrageorge]

Apparently not.

DL him. Get the surgery now if the alternative is he's going to suck upon return. Hurt crappy June Pedroia isn't too hard to replace. Good Pedroia is something to protect. I'd write off 2012 if necessary.

Of course, they will put him on the DL, he will come back quickly and suck. Struggle through the rest of the year, rest, and have the issue pop back up in spring training. They will balk and hem and haw. He'll have surgery and miss a bunch of time having his comeback delayed with setbacks and he'll never really be the same. It's a lock.

Why are we assuming that surgery would be indicated, let alone curative? Why can't anyone accept the fact that these injuries are just horrible luck?

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Apparently not.

DL him. Get the surgery now if the alternative is he's going to suck upon return. Hurt crappy June Pedroia isn't too hard to replace. Good Pedroia is something to protect. I'd write off 2012 if necessary.

Of course, they will put him on the DL, he will come back quickly and suck. Struggle through the rest of the year, rest, and have the issue pop back up in spring training. They will balk and hem and haw. He'll have surgery and miss a bunch of time having his comeback delayed with setbacks and he'll never really be the same. It's a lock.

I really don't think there's anything here to operate on. I don't 100% know it, but I am pretty goddamn sure that if there was something that would need surgery (Andrew Bailey and Youkilis being recent examples) he'd be getting it. That being said, he's not going to be 100% after a 15-day DL stint - this will likely linger on some level until next year. Being out for a while will hopefully make it more managable.

[Eric Van]

So what do they do? Especially since we don't know whether WMB can play 3B this weekend?

One very complicating factor that I was unaware of until I looked it up: Mike Aviles apparently cannot play 2B or 3B. UZR, DRS, and TZ are all in very good agreement at all three positions, and it works out to career figures of about +13 at SS, -8 at 2B, and -14 at 3B. So calling up Iglesias (who Clay Davenport has at +22 over the last two years) and moving Aviles to 2B or 3B is a net loss.

Pedro Ciriaco and Nick Punto both appear to be about +6 at 2B. Who's the better hitter? Whoever you want to believe. Punto is a career .234 TAv, but .250 the last three years, weighted 3-2-1, but .220 this year. Ciriaco has a .247 MLE this year, but he's never hit like that before; the last 3 years, age adjusted and then weighted, he's .216. Another question: do we really want to toss Ciriaco into a starting role in an MFY series? And another: how do you clear room on the 40-man roster for him? Even though we expect to be deleting Podsednik, Albers, Germano, and either Lillibridge or Sweeney as guys get healthy later this month, there's no one obvious now.

Iglesias has a .215 MLE but there's reason to hope he can function at more like .225. He might be able to step in and be a better 2B than Punto.

In terms of 3B, Mauro Gomez's problems there (based on the stats and one night of observation) appeared to be a huge error rate and mediocre range rather than bad hands; Davenport has him at about -30. If only WMB were out, I like the idea of having him pinch-hit for Punto and then stay in the game, but I think starting him at 3B is playing with fire.

Lillibridge really can't play 2B or 3B except in an emergency. Andy LaRoche is about a +2 defender at 3B but as settled in at about a .227 TAv; until he shows otherwise, he's no answer.

If I had to make the call, I call up Iglesias just as backup, but work him out at 2B when he gets here and see how he looks. In the meantime, Punto starts at 2B, and if WMB is out this weekend, roll the dice (at least Friday) and go with Gomez. By the end of the weekend, if WMB is still out, maybe Iglesias is at 2B and Punto is at 3B.

Yeah, none of this is good.

[StuckOnYouk]

I really don't think there's anything here to operate on. I don't 100% know it, but I am pretty goddamn sure that if there was something that would need surgery (Andrew Bailey and Youkilis being recent examples) he'd be getting it. That being said, he's not going to be 100% after a 15-day DL stint - this will likely linger on some level until next year. Being out for a while will hopefully make it more managable.

Is it bad that I'm hoping that there is something to operate on so that it can be fully fixed rather than something that lingers into the rest of the season and hell the way things have gone will somehow linger into spring training of 2013?

[Corsi]

Mauro Gomez just appeared at McCoy Stadium. Looks like that's the move to get Dustin Pedroia back on the active roster

https://twitter.com/...994558541029377

[Van Everyman]

Less 'o Mauro is the right move. I've been wondering if they'd bring up Lavarnway in light of the Ortiz DL trip, but then I saw this:

– At a time when there was some curiosity about whether he would be called up in light of David Ortiz landing on the disabled list, it is worth noting that Ryan Lavarnway is in a bit of an offensive funk. He went 0-for-3 with a walk on Wednesday, and after a scorching June that saw him hit .405/.469/.667/1.136, he’s hitting .184/.273/.286/.558 this month. His strikeout rate is largely in line with what it’s been for the rest of the season, suggesting that there’s been some bad luck involved.
Even so, while Lavarnway is undoubtedly the better long-term prospect than Mauro Gomez, and while he represents a major league-caliber player right now, the scorching Gomez had two advantages when it came to a call-up: 1) He’s been insanely hot for almost all of his time in Pawtucket, hitting .317/.371/.634/1.005 with 20 homers and 49 extra-base hits in 73 games; and 2) Whereas the Sox would likely have some misgivings about pulling Lavarnway away from everyday catching duties in order to be a temporary DH, the team does not need to be concerned about an opportunity player development cost with a call-up for Gomez.

http://fullcount.wee...aker-locked-in/

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Pedroia should be back full-strength at this point - his original, adductor injury is fully healed. And FWIW, the second injury was to the same thumb but was completely unrelated - just bad luck.

[koufax32]

Pedroia should be back full-strength at this point - his original, adductor injury is fully healed. And FWIW, the second injury was to the same thumb but was completely unrelated - just bad luck.

Will that fully healed abductor give him any occasional swelling or discomfort over the rest of the year? I'm not up on my torn muscle healing timelines. IOW, is that really completely in the past or might his performance suffer any more because of occasional but completely normal inflamation?

[Lose Remerswaal]

So what's the chance Dustin plays DH a couple of games so they can leave Ciriaco in the lineup a bit longer? Any chance that will be good for Pedroia's thumb?

Or does Pedro C go back to being "super-sub" (while Punto becomes "lousy-sub")?

[Al Zarilla]

So what's the chance Dustin plays DH a couple of games so they can leave Ciriaco in the lineup a bit longer? Any chance that will be good for Pedroia's thumb?

Or does Pedro C go back to being "super-sub" (while Punto becomes "lousy-sub")?

I'm still not comfortable with Ciriaco wanting to run the ball over to second base on double play opportunities. He did it again last night. Weird, never saw that before. Just a nit, I know. Kinda hard to not put the best fielding second baseman in the league back out there though.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

So what's the chance Dustin plays DH a couple of games so they can leave Ciriaco in the lineup a bit longer? Any chance that will be good for Pedroia's thumb?

Or does Pedro C go back to being "super-sub" (while Punto becomes "lousy-sub")?

Well, they're leaving Ciriaco in the lineup for at least one more game. He's the DH tonight. I assume that's because it's a lefty on the mound and Nava has been weak hitting from the right side.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

I think Pedey starts at second, he says he's been cleared to play and has been doing all the regular infield/hitting drills he normally would for 4 days now. This line-up is starting to look very scary and once Papi gets himself healed up it will be one of the longest and most balanced attacks in baseball.

My question is how do you work the batting order with CC obviously happy and looking good in the 2 hole?

My line up would be

1. Ellsbury CF
2. Crawford LF
3. Pedey 2b
4. Gonzo 1B
5. Ross RF
6. Nava DH
7. Middlebrooks 3B
8. Salty C
9. Aviles SS

having a number 9 hitter with 10 homers is nice...

Ciriaco could be the super-sub, with Sweeney your 4th outfielder

Not sure where that leaves Punto, Ciriaco adds the speed element that Punto lacks, but Punto looks to be better at OBP. Ciriaco could also fill in in the outfield which would open up a late season bench spot for Lavarnway

[sachilles]

If Ciriaco is in at the 9 spot, with Ellsbury and Crawford at one and two, that is a chance for a lot of speed in front of the mashers. Obviously that won't happen very long. When Ortiz comes back, and we have a chance to have all the expected regulars available it is a formidable line up.
I think you then go
1. Ellsbury CF
2. Crawford LF
3. Pedroia 2b.
4. Ortiz DH
5. Gonzo 1b
6. Ross RF
7. Middlebrooks 3b
8. Salty C
9. Aviles SS

[Lose Remerswaal]

That's the lineup I'd use right now (although mixing in Shoppach a bit more until Saltalamacchia starts hitting again). But once Ortiz is back, I think you go:

1. Ellsbury
2. Crawford
3. Pedroia
4. Ortiz
5. Gonzalez
6. Ross
7. Middlebrooks
8. Catcher
9. Aviles

Edit: I was replying to CET, looks like sachilles agrees with me

Edited by Lose Remerswaal, 19 July 2012 - 02:44 PM.