202 replies to this topic

[Manramsclan]

Pedroia showed off a new brace - which he already has tested, against the medical staff’s wishes - that he feels might be able to absorb the impact when he bats.

Shut him down. For his own sake.

[wutang112878]

Exactly, a 15 day DL stint isnt nearly as bad for him or the team than injuring this any further.

[Noah]

Shut him down. For his own sake.

Seriously. Didn't we learn our lesson when he tried to come back from the broken foot too soon?

[twothousandone]

Strains involve muscles, sprains are ligament injuries (i.e., you sprain your ankle, you strain your hamstring).

If I break my ankle, is the ligament torn?

According to @AlexSpeier, Valentine said today that Middlebrooks will take some grounders at SS during BP as the emergency solution should Aviles or Punto go down.

I'm glad they are thinking about this, but I hope that unlikely occurrence isn't the only scenario they will consider an emergency with Pedroia unavailable. If the tying run is in scoring position is in scoring position in an away game in the eighth or later, don't they have to PH for Punto?

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

If I break my ankle, is the ligament torn?

If it's a supination-external rotation type-IV equivalent, then, yes, the deep deltoid is torn, that's why it requires an ORIF.

Duh.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Seriously. Didn't we learn our lesson when he tried to come back from the broken foot too soon?

To be fair, his foot wasn't broken enough, either.

[fineyoungarm]

He has "Pete Reiser' Syndrome" - he's simply that type of player. (Although I don't think we'll witness Pedroia issued extreme unction on the playing field.) Only one way to control - sort of - the DL.

[sodenj5]

He has "Pete Reiser' Syndrome" - he's simply that type of player. (Although I don't think we'll witness Pedroia issued extreme unction on the playing field.) Only one way to control - sort of - the DL.

Even that won't work, really.



The dude just has no off switch. Taking away baseball for him is like taking away oxygen. He needs to be locked up and shackled.

[fineyoungarm]

Even that won't work, really.



The dude just has no off switch. Taking away baseball for him is like taking away oxygen. He needs to be locked up and shackled.

It's all true. Force him to take a vacation in the Carribean and he'd end up playing ball with a bunch of kids from some barrios.

Edited by fineyoungarm, 01 June 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Even that won't work, really.

The dude just has no off switch. Taking away baseball for him is like taking away oxygen. He needs to be locked up and shackled.

I'm waiting for Aceves to duct-tape him to a pole in the dugout, myself.

[El Tiante]

I love his attitude. But, the Sox should really DL the guy and let him heal. Think long term.

[cornwalls@6]

Just piling on here, but for god sake DL him now. I really can't understand why they've even waited this long. As pointed out up-thread, a workable stretch of the schedule is coming up with inter-league etc., the ballclub has stabilized and is playing well, and recent instances of guys pushing to hard to play through/comeback early from injuries have had very negative consequences. Tough shit if he raises hell, it's for his own good.

[mabrowndog]

Sigh... This team just won't exercise restraint or common sense.

PeteAbe: "Pedroia will take grounders today and BP on Tuesday. #RedSox"

[Snodgrass'Muff]

I love his attitude. But, the Sox should really DL the guy and let him heal. Think long term.

+1

I will love Pedroia forever for the the fact that nothing short of a wheelchair is going to keep him off the field (even that might not be enough), but he's his own worst enemy when hurt. The team needs to take the decision out of his hands or he'll keep trying to get back out there.

15 days won't kill the season. They wouldn't even need to keep him on the shelf that long as they could back date it. There is so little downside to DLing him at this point that it's mind boggling it hasn't happened.

[dwainw]

I've been in agreement with the great majority in wanting the Red Sox to just DL him already. But with Pedroia expecting that he should be able to play by Tuesday when they get back to Boston, a better case could be made that the right decision was made. Assuming he does play Tuesday, it would be 8 days after they shut him down. If the thumb proves to hold up with his new brace and the season resumes as normal for him, are the 6 extra games gained with him on the field worth the 7 games they've played shorthanded? They're 3 - 1 since he went down while the Navas and Podsedniks of the world are carrying more than their fair share of the weight, the Ortiz'z and Youkilis's [you've gotta use apostrophes there, don't you?] of the world are doing what you'd expect/hope, and the pitching staff is picking everyone up. Does this better support or refute the idea that they should have DL'd him all along?

None of this speaks to the potential risks of not allowing his thumb to recover properly and, frankly, my version of common sense tells me they should DL him even now, especially with the rest of the team playing so well. But I'll leave the purely medical component of this debate to the experts.

Edit: To clarify my "logic."

Edited by dwainw, 02 June 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Yaz4Ever]

+1

I will love Pedroia forever for the the fact that nothing short of a wheelchair is going to keep him off the field (even that might not be enough), but he's his own worst enemy when hurt. The team needs to take the decision out of his hands or he'll keep trying to get back out there.

15 days won't kill the season. They wouldn't even need to keep him on the shelf that long as they could back date it. There is so little downside to DLing him at this point that it's mind boggling it hasn't happened.

And this, IMHO, is what makes him the anti-Drew to many of us. I know that's completely irrational to many on this board, but there are plenty of us who love not only the sabre stuff and history of the game but also relish the fact that there are players in the majors who appreciate the opportunity they have to play a game we all love. Many of us believe that we'd leave it all on the field if just given the chance to be in their shoes.

As someone getting longer in the tooth and somewhat maturing, this becomes a combination of sense of pride and frustration when guys like Pedroia take possibly unnecessary risks with their future especially when being enabled by the grown ups who should know better.

A couple of weeks of maybe 70% Pedroia is certainly better than 100% Punto, but aggravating this and leading to ten weeks of 100% Punto would be an unmitigated disaster.

[Reverend]

And this, IMHO, is what makes him the anti-Drew to many of us. I know that's completely irrational to many on this board, but there are plenty of us who love not only the sabre stuff and history of the game but also relish the fact that there are players in the majors who appreciate the opportunity they have to play a game we all love. Many of us believe that we'd leave it all on the field if just given the chance to be in their shoes.

As someone getting longer in the tooth and somewhat maturing, this becomes a combination of sense of pride and frustration when guys like Pedroia take possibly unnecessary risks with their future especially when being enabled by the grown ups who should know better.

A couple of weeks of maybe 70% Pedroia is certainly better than 100% Punto, but aggravating this and leading to ten weeks of 100% Punto would be an unmitigated disaster.

As long as you understand that this is what's called "wanting to have it both ways".

Make no mistake, I love Pedey and I love how he plays the game, and I understand why players bs their managers and coaches. But as a A&O and others have mentioned, he's .232/.262/.250 since May 14th. The man plays with pride, no doubt, but he may have actually hurt the ball club with that pride; it cuts both ways. The basic difference is, like holding the guy at third or not going for it on 4th and short, you only get blamed for one version of the mistake and not the other--and Pedey will never be blamed even if he does do damage because we love him for being a gamer.

And again, I love the spirit too. I'm ambivalent, though, as to where it fits into being a professional. I think that's why so many people adopt the stance of wanting the manager to step in--that way we get the unbridled player without the potential harm to the team. Cake. Eat it. Cake.

Edited by Reverend, 02 June 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[Yaz4Ever]

Not arguing rev's point at all. I agree that what I live about Pedroia and what frustrates me about Pedroia are some of the same things.

[fineyoungarm]

As long as you understand that this is what's called "wanting to have it both ways".

Make no mistake, I love Pedey and I love how he plays the game, and I understand why players bs their managers and coaches. But as a A&O and others have mentioned, he's .232/.262/.250 since May 14th. The man plays with pride, no doubt, but he may have actually hurt the ball club with that pride; it cuts both ways. The basic difference is, like holding the guy at third or not going for it on 4th and short, you only get blamed for one version of the mistake and not the other--and Pedey will never be blamed even if he does do damage because we love him for being a gamer.

And again, I love the spirit too. I'm ambivalent, though, as to where it fits into being a professional. I think that's why so many people adopt the stance of wanting the manager to step in--that way we get the unbridled player without the potential harm to the team. Cake. Eat it. Cake.

That pretty much says it all. Also, given that we appear to live in an age of miracles, as this team remains very competitive in a very competitive division, it's clear that if they are going to make a run at it after the All Star Break, a very healthy Dustin Pedroia will be essential (I always stop short of indispensable).

[fineyoungarm]

Not arguing rev's point at all. I agree that what I live about Pedroia and what frustrates me about Pedroia are some of the same things.

My reference yesterday to Pete Reiser Syndrome was only partly tongue in chief. There is a history with these "gamers" - and it often is an unhappy one.

[dwainw]

If the Red Sox had gone 0 - 4 in the last 4 games and continued to lose through the weekend, would the ensuing urgency make the presumed risk of keeping Pedey active and bringing him back sooner worth it at this point of the season? Also, does anyone know how long he's expected to wear the brace?

[fineyoungarm]

If the Red Sox had gone 0 - 4 in the last 4 games and continued to lose through the weekend, would the ensuing urgency make the presumed risk of keeping Pedey active and bringing him back sooner worth it at this point of the season? Also, does anyone know how long he's expected to wear the brace?

I don't think so, given his preinjury production issues and the risk of long term injury to the teams most important every day player.

[Toe Nash]

Pedroia expected to start tonight courtesy of Bradford and others.

http://www.overthemo...-lineup-tuesday

We'll see how he does, but had they DLed him he would have been ineligible to play for another week.

[PrometheusWakefield]

I'm a little confused by this. Are they thinking that his recent subpar performance is unrelated to the injury, or that the current amount of rest was sufficient to heal it and more rest would be useless? Is there a more permanent fix to this or are we stuck with a less than 100% Pedroia for the rest of the year? Pedey is exactly the kind of player that you'd be concerned would try to play through an injury when he shouldn't.

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

Are they thinking that his recent subpar performance is unrelated to the injury, or that the current amount of rest was sufficient to heal it and more rest would be useless?

I'd guess it's more the latter, combined with the padded thumbguard (plus the likely assurance that it 'probably' won't get any worse - which, given recent history ...).

[Eric Van]

I'm a little confused by this. Are they thinking that his recent subpar performance is unrelated to the injury, or that the current amount of rest was sufficient to heal it and more rest would be useless? Is there a more permanent fix to this or are we stuck with a less than 100% Pedroia for the rest of the year? Pedey is exactly the kind of player that you'd be concerned would try to play through an injury when he shouldn't.

He did hit .395 / .489 / .684 in his first 8 injured games (47 PA, May 4 to 12). That suggests that there's a level of hurt that doesn't affect his play, and that they think they've gotten back to it.

[Plympton91]

2 K's, a popup to CF, a walk, and a weak grounder to shortstop. For one game you can chalk it up to rust, but I hope they force him to actually produce at a reasonable clip in order to stay off the DL. If he goes 10 days of hitting .222 / .259 / .290 then it's time to pull the plug.

[HriniakPosterChild]

If he goes 10 days of hitting .222 / .259 / .290 then it's time to pull the plug.

No, in that case it would be about 15 days past time to pull the plug.

Not that we haven't seen that kind of thing before.

[sachilles]

When Salty hit the home run in the 9th last night, Pedroia could be seen high fiving with both hands with quite a bit of force, without any sort of wince of pain. If the thumb was sore at all, I'd think he may not have offered up the bad hand.

[Reverend]

He did hit .395 / .489 / .684 in his first 8 injured games (47 PA, May 4 to 12). That suggests that there's a level of hurt that doesn't affect his play, and that they think they've gotten back to it.

Possibly. But then my concern would be that from that point--that "it"--his play then deteriorated. So I don't want him to get back to that point; I want him healthy enough such that play will not cause the injury to worsen (if that is what's going on, of course).

When Salty hit the home run in the 9th last night, Pedroia could be seen high fiving with both hands with quite a bit of force, without any sort of wince of pain. If the thumb was sore at all, I'd think he may not have offered up the bad hand.

I guess they can just lock the thread now, huh?

I'm thrilled to have such clarity.

[sachilles]

If you look at his historical batting stats, you'll find that his yearly low points seem to occur at this same point in the last few seasons. Assumptions are being made that the thumb injury has caused the diminshed performance. Eric Van showed that he was still hitting well while injured.
The diving play against Detroit towards the end of the game, shortly before he was removed was a clear point of the injury taking a turn for the worst. He played well the three games prior to and including the one where he was pulled.
He has since rested, and resumed action
The player reported no pain after the game last night. He clearly demonstrated that there wasn't any pain during the game. He just batted poorly(after being out of action for a week). In a year where injuries are coming at the training staff from every direction, it's natural to blame injury for everything.
What will convince you that the injury is not a factor?

[Toe Nash]

Abraham (bold mine):
http://www.boston.co...ia_feeling.html

But before he wrote out the lineup, manager Bobby Valentine said he had a “heart to heart conversation” with Pedroia to make sure he was ready to go.

“It was just, ‘Tell me the truth. You’re not allowed to cross your fingers or any of that stuff,’ ” Valentine said. “He said he feels perfect. He has no reservations about doing everything that he has to do on the field.

“There’s no swelling, there’s no pain; there’s 100 percent green light from the training room.”

“My thumb was good,” Pedroia said. “I just got to get used to the guard and get my timing back a little bit. Other than that I felt fine. My last few at-bats I felt more comfortable.”

[Reverend]

If you look at his historical batting stats, you'll find that his yearly low points seem to occur at this same point in the last few seasons. Assumptions are being made that the thumb injury has caused the diminshed performance. Eric Van showed that he was still hitting well while injured.

The diving play against Detroit towards the end of the game, shortly before he was removed was a clear point of the injury taking a turn for the worst. He played well the three games prior to and including the one where he was pulled.

He has since rested, and resumed action

The player reported no pain after the game last night. He clearly demonstrated that there wasn't any pain during the game. He just batted poorly(after being out of action for a week). In a year where injuries are coming at the training staff from every direction, it's natural to blame injury for everything.

What will convince you that the injury is not a factor?

I dunno. What will make clear to you why your last was a much more potentially useful and informative post than your analysis of his high fiving ability?

It could be more interesting still, though, if we actually took a look at the data--something like this:

Pedey: May 14 June 1/2

Date	G__	PA_	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	BAbip
May 14, 2007 to Jun 1, 2007	13	49	0.465	0.521	0.651	1.172	0.475
May 14, 2008 to Jun 1, 2008	17	77	0.211	0.253	0.366	0.620	0.197
May 14, 2009 to Jun 2, 2009	18	83	0.333	0.427	0.478	0.905	0.333
May 14, 2010 to Jun 1, 2010	16	74	0.154	0.257	0.246	0.503	0.158
May 14, 2011 to Jun 1, 2011	17	79	0.257	0.342	0.371	0.713	0.271
May 14, 2012 to May 28, 2012	14	60	0.232	0.267	0.250	0.517	0.271

Pedey: Games 35-48

Date	G__	PA_	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	BAbip
May 12, 2007 to May 27, 2007	10	37	0.333	0.389	0.455	0.843	0.323
May 6, 2008 to May 20, 2008	14	62	0.263	0.300	0.316	0.616	0.275
May 16, 2009 to May 30, 2009	14	61	0.340	0.443	0.420	0.863	0.347
May 12, 2010 to May 27, 2010	14	64	0.164	0.281	0.255	0.536	0.170
May 10, 2011 to May 26, 2011	14	69	0.271	0.368	0.356	0.724	0.319
May 14, 2012 to May 28, 2012	14	60	0.232	0.267	0.250	0.517	0.271

And for reference:

Pedey: Seasons

Date: Gibberish to line up rit	G__	PA_	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	Babip
2007	139	581	0.317	0.380	0.442	0.823	0.333
2008	157	726	0.326	0.376	0.493	0.869	0.331
2009	154	714	0.296	0.371	0.447	0.819	0.297
2010	75	351	0.288	0.367	0.493	0.860	0.291
2011	159	731	0.307	0.387	0.474	0.861	0.325
2012	49	225	0.291	0.347	0.443	0.790	0.310

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[BlackSox Jack]

Independent of the week prior that was a wasted roster spot, hard to see how having him sItting in the 2 hole and 1 for his last 16, hasn't been a significant miss. Total second guessing but he does not appear to be able-bodied at the plate.

[Harry Hooper]

His 1 hit was off a mediocre change-up, so he's not exactly driving the ball. Looks like avoiding the DL was a bad move already, with the potential to be even more damaging if an aggravation of the injury occurs.

[JimBoSox9]

I wish I could prove this, but I think his bat speed is down. His specialty is turning around inside fastballs, and I haven't seen that in quite awhile.

[Plympton91]

Yup, this whole decisionmaking process has been pathetic. Once again we have an injured player attempting to "gut it out" and hurting the team tremendously in the process. When does the management of the team act like an adult and pull the plug. Pedroia is never going to tell them he's too hurt to play. Cherington has the DL power; he needs to be the parent.

[bosockboy]

I think at this point, Iglesias' glove>Pedroia's bat. Get him healthy.

[TheoShmeo]

I think at this point, Iglesias' glove>Pedroia's bat. Get him healthy.

Iglesias is on the minor league DL. He's not healthy, either.

My inclination is that Pedey isn't ready to be out there, but with Punto as the only realistic option (am I missing another one?), I'm OK with the Sox giving Pedroia a little more time to get his timing down or definitively show that he needs a DL stint.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I think at this point, Iglesias' glove>Pedroia's bat. Get him healthy.

Are you talking about getting Pedroia healthy or Iglesias? Because at the moment, Iglesias is on the DL.

[bosockboy]

My bad....I forgot about Iglesias being on the DL.

[Worst Trade Evah]

So Pedroia has a .384 OPS in the 8 games since his return, with a slash line of .129 / .222 / .161. I guess that .384 under-rates the relative strength of the .222 OBP. He looks terrible at the plate. I don't have a good sense how his defense has been the last 8 games. As an impression it seems okay, but I don't think it's easy to tell much with the view from the living room.

I dislike it when they try to get these players to play through injuries. Small samples, anything can happen, yada, yada, yada. I don't think they should have put him back out there. Does the front office track injuries by type, and have a sense of what can be played through and what can't? Is there any reason to think continuing to play will slow healing or worsen the injury? He'd missed 6 games before he game back, and he's now played 8 with minimal contribution on offense -- wouldn't they have been better putting him on the DL?

FWIW, in his 18 PA in June Punto has a 1.069 OPS.

Edited by Worst Trade Evah, 13 June 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[luckysox]

Bump. Left game tonight after a pop up in his last at bat. Shaking hand/thumb, wincing, and went to clubhouse.

[LondonSox]

So let him play on it, and shockingly he hurts it. What might have been a short DL may now become a serious layoff.
Awesome.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Pedroia expected to start tonight courtesy of Bradford and others.

http://www.overthemo...-lineup-tuesday

We'll see how he does, but had they DLed him he would have been ineligible to play for another week.

In the last 14 days, Baseball Reference has him hitting .170/.235/.213.

I guess we're seeing how he does.

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 19 June 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[StuckOnYouk]

Just DL him tonight and tell him we'll see him right after the all-star break as long as his thumb shows improvement with rest.

Punto would have been an upgrade over Pedey these last few weeeks.

[AimingForYoko]

Congrats Pedey, you're gritty and we love you for it. Now go on the goddamned DL.

[donutogre]

Congrats Pedey, you're gritty and we love you for it. Now go on the goddamned DL.

A month later than he should have. Just brilliant management of one of the team's most important assets. We really benefitted from having him play through it, as one can see by looking at his terrible slash line for the last 4 weeks or so. What a royal fuckup this whole situation has been.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Congrats Pedey, you're gritty and we love you for it. Now go on the goddamned DL.

Thank you. Redassery helps no one over the long term. He's hurting himself and the team. As much as I detest Punto, I can live with him getting 15 days of playing time while Pedroia heals up.

[Toe Nash]

In the last 14 days, Baseball Reference has him hitting .170/.235/.213.

I guess we're seeing how he does.

Ok, he wasn't very good. I still think it was worth the risk and he seemed to be getting better so maybe there's something to Remy's assertion that his timing was off. 2 hits Sunday, nice double last night. He said he wasn't limited by the injury or pain once he removed the brace.

There's just an incredible amount of know-it-all-ness (and knee-jerk assumption that the team's medical staff is wrong) regarding any injury a player has when we really know very little about the specific injury, its expected healing time, whether it will heal with rest, whether it's something that's just going to have to be managed for the rest of the year, etc.