202 replies to this topic

[czar]

Not in lineup today. Wearing a brace on his thumb in the clubhouse.

---

Karl Ravech tweeted this 5 minutes ago, FWIW.

Punto in lineup for red sox, nothing official yet but hearing Pedroia likely to miss a month

[Laser Show]

This team can literally not catch a break the past few years. Good God.

[trekfan55]

Can someone please look up the possible bad luck with injuries the Sox have had recently and put in in historical perspective?

No GM or manager of any team can be expected to deal with stuff like this.

[czar]

Sox soon to make announcement on Dustin Pedroia. Out of lineup. Doesn't sound good.

Cafardo

[Soxfan in Fla]

I for one am thrilled to have Nick Punto and his eye popping (gouging) .450 OPS in the lineup everyday.

/ sarcasm

[Corsi]

Can Youk play 2B?

[Joe Shlabotnick]

This team can literally not catch a break the past few years. Good God.

Could this be some sort of karmaic revenge for the two WS championships?

Edited by Joe Shlabotnick, 29 May 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Sounds like a grade 2 UCL. Goddamnit.

Iglesias up, Aviles to second?

[mabrowndog]

Can someone please look up the possible bad luck with injuries the Sox have had recently and put in in historical perspective?

No GM or manager of any team can be expected to deal with stuff like this.

Let's put it this way. Last season was by far the worst I could ever recall for man-days missed by any team due to injury and/or the DL. I believe one or more posters presented some data here that confirmed it.

This season is on pace to absolutely dwarf 2011. And it's not just man-days. I'm sure once you assign dollar values to each missed man-day based on salary & bonuses, the projected full-season figure for 2012 would be jaw-dropping.

[bosockboy]

Sounds like a grade 2 UCL. Goddamnit.

Iglesias up, Aviles to second?

Has to be I'd think.....Iglesias' D would somewhat offset the devastating offensive downgrade.

[ShaneTrot]

Isn't the best move to bring up either up either Iglesias or Ciriaco and move Aviles to second and let Punto do what he does best, take up space?

[Corsi]

Isn't the best move to bring up either up either Iglesias or Ciriaco and move Aviles to second and let Punto do what he does best, take up space?

Considering the circumstances, is it time to make a trade for a decent 2B (i.e. someone like Graffanino back in '05), who can eventually just take Punto's job once Pedroia is healthy?

[trekfan55]

Yeah, but in true Sox timing Iglesias seems to be injured (cannot find the link now but it was all over the gamethread yesterday)

Edit: Just got this

2 thoughts on Pedroia: 1) Iglesias has been out/injured last few games. #pawsoxmgr Arnie Beyeler told @TBritton_Projo he's out Tues, too...

Edited by trekfan55, 29 May 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[MalzoneExpress]

Yeah, but in true Sox timing Iglesias seems to be injured (cannot find the link now but it was all over the gamethread yesterday)

http://blogs.provide...g-injuries.html

It looks like he has been given a few days off to get over some nagging injuries.

[Bongorific]

Maufman's kid must be thrilled.

[Toe Nash]

Yeah, but in true Sox timing Iglesias seems to be injured (cannot find the link now but it was all over the gamethread yesterday)

Here you go -- this just describes them as "nagging injuries" http://blogs.provide...g-injuries.html

edit: beaten

Edited by Toe Nash, 29 May 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[EP Sox Fan]

Isn't the best move to bring up either up either Iglesias or Ciriaco and move Aviles to second and let Punto do what he does best, take up space?

That was my first thought. I took a look at Aviles career fielding numbers at 2B. He has a UZR of -4.8 and a UZR/150 of -10.9 in 1061.2 innings at 2B. Punto has UZR of 10.9 and UZR/150 of 6.9. I have to think they'll call up Ciraco and that we'll be seeing an unfortunate amount of Punto until Pedey gets healthy.

[Laser Show]

Could this be some sort of karmaic revenge for the two WS championships?

I literally almost put this in my post. This is jaw-dropping.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Could this be some sort of karmaic revenge for the two WS championships?

It's karmic revenge for all the shit everyone talked about the previous medical staff. Somewhere Tom Gill is laughing his ass off.

[Rasputin]

Insert rehash of all the arguments against having Punto as your primary backup infielder here.

So, um Jose, how about making an awesome debut*?

*Edit--Yeah, I know, it's not really his debut.

Edited by Rasputin, 29 May 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[bosockboy]

Considering the circumstances, is it time to make a trade for a decent 2B (i.e. someone like Graffanino back in '05), who can eventually just take Punto's job once Pedroia is healthy?

Wonder what it would take to get Prado from Atlanta? That seems like the current incarnation of Graffanino.

[TheoShmeo]

It's karmic revenge for all the shit everyone talked about the previous medical staff. Somewhere Tom Gill is laughing his ass off.

The problem was never really the prior medical staff. It was the evil front office, who forced the doctors to make decisions based on the perceived best interests of the team, as opposed to the players. Without getting rid of the Evil Trio, the medical problems will continue.

At least, that's what they tell me.

And speaking of the front office...Ben, please, Nick Punto for more than a game or two is cruel and unusual punishment. Do something, stat.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 29 May 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[Dogman2]

Insert rehash of all the arguments against having Punto as your primary backup infielder here.

So, um Jose, how about making an awesome debut?

Insert rehash of the no guarantee they get injured argument here.

Relax Ras, I'm joking with you here.

Maybe.

Edited by Dogman2, 29 May 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[Rasputin]

Insert rehash of the no guarantee they get injured argument here.

Relax Ras, I'm joking with you here.

Maybe.

Unless you're willing to explain how it is guaranteed that all our most important players will spend more than the usual time on the DL, you can feel free to not pretend you're joking. it's not me you're making look silly.

[fineyoungarm]

Could this be some sort of karmaic revenge for the two WS championships?

In terms of #s, this is tough to beat. In terms of severity and timing to key members - there is some competition. Obviously, there are Conigliaro in 1967 (the Bob Gibson factor may have reduced his importance) and Jim Rice in 1975. WIth him in the Series in 1975 - well ...

Jim Lonborg and his (stupid f***ing) broken leg in 1968 (and to a lesser extent his broken toe in 1969 - ?). Losing him, given the caliber of the rest of the staff, was like a #1 and a #2 going down for an entire season.

Petrocelli played in pain, but when his arm went, that tore the heart out of the team - defensively and, some maintain, offensively. The post 1967 leader in the clubhouse was Rico - not Yaz.

And, the most dreadful of all, the blister on Roger Clemens finger in game 6 of the 1986 Series. Not only did that keep him from completing game 6, but must have prevented McNamara from using him in game 7, when Hurst tired, because otherwise it certainly would have had a couple of innings in him, given his youth, strength, the importance of the game and the fact that he could then REST for 4 months.

[Dogman2]

nm

Edited by Dogman2, 29 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Considering the circumstances, is it time to make a trade for a decent 2B (i.e. someone like Graffanino back in '05), who can eventually just take Punto's job once Pedroia is healthy?

[Hendu's Gait]

This team can literally not catch a break the past few years. Good God.

What (TF) are you talking about? They're obviously breaking too many joints, ligaments, and bones as it is.

/joke

[reggiecleveland]

Unless you're willing to explain how it is guaranteed that all our most important players will spend more than the usual time on the DL, you can feel free to not pretend you're joking. it's not me you're making look silly.

Pedroia
Ellsbury
Gonzales
Beckett
Lester
Ortiz
Youkilis*
Buchholz
Bailey
Crawford

I think "all" is a silly over statement. 3 of the top ten, yeah that's bad. Mind you one of them was one of the worst players in baseball last year, som him being ijured my be a plus.Has Youkilis spent more than normal time?

I have not seen Pedroia DLed yet. Maybe we should wait a day.

Just as big a problem is the poor performance of the top ten that are healthy. Gonzales, Lester, have been below what is expected. That has amplified the injury problems.

Edited by reggiecleveland, 29 May 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Al Zarilla]

In terms of #s, this is tough to beat. In terms of severity and timing to key members - there is some competition. Obviously, there are Conigliaro in 1967 (the Bob Gibson factor may have reduced his importance) and Jim Rice in 1975. WIth him in the Series in 1975 - well ...

Jim Lonborg and his (stupid f***ing) broken leg in 1968 (and to a lesser extent his broken toe in 1969 - ?). Losing him, given the caliber of the rest of the staff, was like a #1 and a #2 going down for an entire season.

Petrocelli played in pain, but when his arm went, that tore the heart out of the team - defensively and, some maintain, offensively. The post 1967 leader in the clubhouse was Rico - not Yaz.

And, the most dreadful of all, the blister on Roger Clemens finger in game 6 of the 1986 Series. Not only did that keep him from completing game 6, but must have prevented McNamara from using him in game 7, when Hurst tired, because otherwise it certainly would have had a couple of innings in him, given his youth, strength, the importance of the game and the fact that he could then REST for 4 months.

Doesn't McNamara claim to this day that Clemens had something about the severity of a paper cut?

Edited by Al Zarilla, 29 May 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Rasputin]

Pedroia
Ellsbury
Gonzales
Beckett
Lester
Ortiz
Youkilis*
Buchholz
Bailey
Crawford

I think "all" is a silly over statement. 3 of the top ten, yeah that's bad. Mind you one of them was one of the worst players in baseball last year, som him being ijured my be a plus.Has Youkilis spent more than normal time?

I have not seen Pedroia DLed yet. Maybe we should wait a day.

Just as big a problem is the poor performance of the top ten that are healthy. Gonzales, Lester, have been below what is expected. That has amplified the injury problems.

Sure, I got no argument with that, though you should add Buchholz to the underperforming list. Maybe he isn't among our "best" players whatever that means but his under performance has been the biggest anchor on the team outside of the injuries.

[thehitcat]

Nick Cafardo just tweeted the following (from Boston.com)


nickcafardo Valentine says team still going over pedroia mri. No word yet. He's had discomfort about three weeks. 42 minutes ago reply


THREE WEEKS AGO!!! Isn't this what was happening last year with guys "gutting out injuries?"

[Harry Hooper]

Chad Finn's joke may come true yet:

6. As fun as it was to see the latter's contribution Wednesday, I never thought I'd see the day when Scrappy 'N' Gutty Hall of Famers Nick Punto and Scott Podsednik were on the Red Sox roster. Somewhere, David Eckstein stands alone on a Little League field, air bunting, sprinting out imaginary walks, and waiting for his phone to ring.

[Foulkey Reese]

Chad Finn's joke may come true yet:

That joke has been made in the game threads a dozen times. Tsk tsk Chad.

[fineyoungarm]

Doesn't McNamara claim to this day that Clemens had something about the severity of a paper cut?

Doesn't McNamara claim to this day that Clemens had something about the severity of a paper cut?

Clemens claims that he was fine. McNamara claims that his ace told him he was through. I don't know that McNamara has ever commented beyond that. If I had to choose, I would say that the mgr is closer to the truth. Now, I guess we should return to the present. The past is done (think about it).

[mabrowndog]

2010 was a pretty awful year for injuries as well. Sibpin put together a spreadsheet to track the missed days that season. Alex's last update that year was August 20, and by then the Sox had lost 767 man-games to injury. They'd also used 50 different different players.

The 2012 Sox have already used 50 different players in about 3 fewer months' time. By my count, they've lost 549 man-games to injury through tonight. Admittedly that data is skewed by the likes of Carpenter and Repko, and by the glut of pitchers who are far from everyday players. But I'm counting anyone who's been on the active roster or the 60-day DL since the season started.


Andrew Bailey 49
Josh Beckett 5
Chris Carpenter 49
Aaron Cook 23
Rich Hill 18
Bobby Jenks 49
John Lackey 49
Daisuke Matsuzaka 49
Andrew Miller 26
Dustin Pedroia 1
Kevin Youkilis 22
Carl Crawford 49
Jacoby Ellsbury 42
Ryan Kalish 49
Darnell McDonald 17
Jason Repko 36
Cody Ross 9
Ryan Sweeney 7

TOTAL 549

Edited by mabrowndog, 29 May 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[Corsi]

If #Tigers decide to upgrade at 2B, Marco Scutaro a name to keep an eye on. #Rockies should be sellers.

https://twitter.com/...589725404540928

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

THREE WEEKS AGO!!! Isn't this what was happening last year with guys "gutting out injuries?"

He's been .232/.262/.250 since May 14, so there might be something to that.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Considering the circumstances, is it time to make a trade for a decent 2B (i.e. someone like Graffanino back in '05), who can eventually just take Punto's job once Pedroia is healthy?

Seems like it would also be a time to sell high on one of the MR's like Padilla/Albers/Morales. Surely one could get at least a decent .650 OPS UTL player? Would also free up Melancon obviously also.

[Remagellan]

He's been .232/.262/.250 since May 14, so there might be something to that.

So basically, Punto may be an upgrade over a busted Dustin.

[Noah]

Can Middlebrooks play second?

[mikeford]

2010 was a pretty awful year for injuries as well. Sibpin put together a spreadsheet to track the missed days that season. Alex's last update that year was August 20, and by then the Sox had lost 767 man-games to injury. They'd also used 50 different different players.

The 2012 Sox have already used 50 different players in about 3 fewer months' time. By my count, they've lost 500 man-games to injury through tonight. Admittedly that data is skewed by the likes of Carpenter and Repko, but I'm counting anyone who has been on the active roster or the 60-day DL since the season started.


Andrew Bailey 49
Josh Beckett 5
Chris Carpenter 49
Aaron Cook 23
Rich Hill 18
Bobby Jenks 49
Daisuke Matsuzaka 49
Andrew Miller 26
Dustin Pedroia 1
Kevin Youkilis 22
Carl Crawford 49
Jacoby Ellsbury 42
Ryan Kalish 49
Darnell McDonald 17
Jason Repko 36
Cody Ross 9
Ryan Sweeney 7

TOTAL 500

Your list left out Lackey, who I believe is also on the 60 day DL (why wouldn't he be?) so tack on another 49 games.

[maufman]

Sure, I got no argument with that, though you should add Buchholz to the underperforming list. Maybe he isn't among our "best" players whatever that means but his under performance has been the biggest anchor on the team outside of the injuries.

Absolutely. This winter, we heard repeatedly that replacing Lackey with a random body who was a little better than replacement level would be a significant upgrade. Felix Doubront has exceeded expectations as that "random body"; unfortunately, Buchholz has replaced Lackey as the rotation's black hole. More significantly, almost none of the other fixes for the pitching staff have worked as planned -- Bard has struggled after a slow start, Bailey is hurt, Melancon got himself shipped to Pawtucket, and Aceves has regressed to the mean as many of us feared he would.

Without doing a full-blown statistical analysis, it seems the failure of the FO's plan to fix the pitching staff on the cheap is more responsible for the club's early-season struggles than the rash of injuries -- which mostly affected position players, and which the offense has weathered surprisingly well. I'm not even sure you can blame the FO -- very few pitching staffs are constructed to succeed with only one key player exceeding expectations. That is the crux of the problem, imo.

Edited by maufman, 29 May 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[tonyarmasjr]

He's been .232/.262/.250 since May 14, so there might be something to that.

So basically, Punto may be an upgrade over a busted Dustin.

vs Punto's .128/.286/.154 this season? Nope, I don't see it.

[mabrowndog]

Your list left out Lackey, who I believe is also on the 60 day DL (why wouldn't he be?) so tack on another 49 games.

I've done my level best to obliterate him from my memory and consciousness. Thanks for the heads-up and the painful reminder that he's still a costly part of this organization.

[Rasputin]

Your list left out Lackey, who I believe is also on the 60 day DL (why wouldn't he be?) so tack on another 49 games.

I think it is reasonable to exclude from the calculations, those injuries which were known about when the front office was making their off season decisions. This would be Lackey, the first month of Crawford, and Kalish.

The remaining list is still extreme.

[Super Nomario]

I think it is reasonable to exclude from the calculations, those injuries which were known about when the front office was making their off season decisions. This would be Lackey, the first month of Crawford, and Kalish.

The remaining list is still extreme.

Matsuzaka, too. And Rich Hill. And the complications from Jenks' surgery were in December; I think the FO would have had to operate assuming he wasn't going to contribute much.

The OF has been an absolute train-wreck, but other than Bailey and Beckett skipping one start the pitching has been pretty much healthy.

[Rasputin]

Absolutely. This winter, we heard repeatedly that replacing Lackey with a random body who was a little better than replacement level would be a significant upgrade. Felix Doubront has exceeded expectations as that "random body"; unfortunately, Buchholz has replaced Lackey as the rotation's black hole. More significantly, almost none of the other fixes for the pitching staff have worked as planned -- Bard has struggled after a slow start, Bailey is hurt, Melancon got himself shipped to Pawtucket, and Aceves has regressed to the mean as many of us feared he would.

Without doing a full-blown statistical analysis, it seems the failure of the FO's plan to fix the pitching staff on the cheap is more responsible for the club's early-season struggles than the rash of injuries -- which mostly affected position players, and which the offense has weathered surprisingly well. I'm not even sure you can blame the FO -- very few pitching staffs are constructed to succeed with only one key player exceeding expectations. That is the crux of the problem, imo.

Whoever said that was a genius.

I think I disagree with much of the rest of the assessment. I think it's very inaccurate to say the other fixes to the staff haven't worked as planned.

I think Bard has almost exactly worked as planned. He's walking too many and striking out too few while not going deep enough but I rather strongly suspect that's what the front office expected from him, or at least within the reasonable range of expectations they had for him. At the end of the day his ERA is 4.69, ERA+ is 90, and he's held the opposition to three runs or less in five of his nine starts while not allowing more than five in any of them. If you had suggested to me that we would get that from Bard in the beginning of his transition, I'd have taken it in a heartbeat.

Similarly with Aceves, while I wasn't a fan of making him a closer for the same reasons that nobody else is really a fan of it, he's allowed thirty five baserunners and fourteen runs in 23 innings with eight of those runs clustered in two games. Since the meltdown against the Yankees he has allowed six runs and I think 24 base runners in about 20 innings. Less than idea to be sure, but certainly an acceptable level.

Meanwhile there's Buchholz who has allowed less than five runs in a total of three of his ten starts. If he were performing up to the level of Bard (i.e. a little less than average) let alone his better than average baseline then it's pretty clear that this team would be closer than the 2.5 games out of the second wild card that we see currently.

That Buchholz' three best games come in his last four games is encouraging, I think. It stands to reason that there would be some kind of adjustment period for a guy coming back after missing almost a whole season and if this ends up being just a really bad adjustment period, I think we're all going to be fine with it.

I think the legitimate criticisms of the front office for their off season performance are limited to:

1) Not getting another real option at fifth starter so we are completely and utterly dependent on the health of the five we have.

2) Completely screwing up the infield situation so that Nick Punto is the primary backup and the secondary backups in the middle are Pedro Circiaco and Jose Iglesias. One of Aviles, Lowrie, Scutaro should be the primary backup with one of Punto, Ciriaco, Iglesias as the secondary middle infield backup and Middlebrooks of course the secondary backup at third.

[mabrowndog]

Using 2012 salary+bonus figures and playing around with a combination of projections and 2012 year-to-date output, the Sox have lost $22.6 million worth of player activity and about 5.5 fWAR through tonight's game.

[mikeford]

@Sean_McAdam
Pedroia has torn abductor muscle in right thumb. Will try to hit with it tomorrow; if he can't likely out 3-4 weeks. #RedSoxTalk


DRS, thoughts?