37 replies to this topic

[Monbonthbump]

Gentlemen and Mods: OK, I understand and agree. The thread I started yesterday sucked and I didn't even proofread it before posting so it did deserve to be shut down. I thought it might prod someone into responding, since the sandbox ordinarily is a pretty uninteresting place to lurk. However it is one of the few areas in which I can make an active connection to fellow Red Sox fanatics. I understand that we are all somewhat embittered by the way this year is unfolding, and that we are all hip, cynical wiseasses who are only allowed to be in "Red Sox Nation" because our sports I.Q.'s are quite a bit higher than other elite fan bases. However, rather than circling an infrequent and lame poster like a group of sharks smelling blood, it might be a bit more charitable to simply let the thread die without the snide comments. Perhaps this is why we are now considered as arrogant and insufferable as Yankee fans in many ball parks. Please remember that I go back to an era when Hoot Evers was the left fielder and most of the good posters here were future sperm. Also remember that this should be a convivial site for people with common interests and that mean spiritedness might be more compatible in the Bronx. Now, have a nice Mother's day and get off of my lawn.

[collings94]

Gentlemen and Mods: OK, I understand and agree. The thread I started yesterday sucked and I didn't even proofread it before posting so it did deserve to be shut down. I thought it might prod someone into responding, since the sandbox ordinarily is a pretty uninteresting place to lurk. However it is one of the few areas in which I can make an active connection to fellow Red Sox fanatics. I understand that we are all somewhat embittered by the way this year is unfolding, and that we are all hip, cynical wiseasses who are only allowed to be in "Red Sox Nation" because our sports I.Q.'s are quite a bit higher than other elite fan bases. However, rather than circling an infrequent and lame poster like a group of sharks smelling blood, it might be a bit more charitable to simply let the thread die without the snide comments. Perhaps this is why we are now considered as arrogant and insufferable as Yankee fans in many ball parks. Please remember that I go back to an era when Hoot Evers was the left fielder and most of the good posters here were future sperm. Also remember that this should be a convivial site for people with common interests and that mean spiritedness might be more compatible in the Bronx. Now, have a nice Mother's day and get off of my lawn.

Right on, right on.

[touchstone033]

Gentlemen and Mods: OK, I understand and agree. The thread I started yesterday sucked and I didn't even proofread it before posting so it did deserve to be shut down. I thought it might prod someone into responding, since the sandbox ordinarily is a pretty uninteresting place to lurk. However it is one of the few areas in which I can make an active connection to fellow Red Sox fanatics. I understand that we are all somewhat embittered by the way this year is unfolding, and that we are all hip, cynical wiseasses who are only allowed to be in "Red Sox Nation" because our sports I.Q.'s are quite a bit higher than other elite fan bases. However, rather than circling an infrequent and lame poster like a group of sharks smelling blood, it might be a bit more charitable to simply let the thread die without the snide comments. Perhaps this is why we are now considered as arrogant and insufferable as Yankee fans in many ball parks. Please remember that I go back to an era when Hoot Evers was the left fielder and most of the good posters here were future sperm. Also remember that this should be a convivial site for people with common interests and that mean spiritedness might be more compatible in the Bronx. Now, have a nice Mother's day and get off of my lawn.

I won't argue that SoSHers aren't "insufferable," "snide," "arrogant," "cynical," "wiseasses," and "hip" (!). I suspect many of them don't give a rat's *ss what you think of them. That said, knowing the crowd here (having described them so well), you should know a little effort is required to write a successful post. Sprowl started a thread on what makes a good Sandbox post -- which I recommend -- but I'd like to add a couple of suggestions.

Be provocative. Challenge the conventional wisdom. And note that SoSH's conventional wisdom is different than, say, Bleacher Report's. In that way, your post was extremely provocative. Kudos.

Provide evidence. I've no idea how you came across the idea that the Reddick-for-Bailey-and-Sweeney trade was the worst since the day the Sox sold Ruth to New York to finance a musical. Maybe you were out mowing your lawn. Or it came to you over your breakfast cereal. Or on the crapper (like most of my good ideas). But don't rush right away to the site and post it. Research it first.

In this case, maybe check out Fangraphs. How good has Reddick been? Let's see...a .340 OBP...8 HRs...whoa! his defense is down!...good for a 1.3 fWAR. Pretty good. His K% is down, but he'll probably never draw a lot of walks. Anyway, Bailey hasn't pitched, but how has Sweeney done? Whoa! .372 OBP! Above-average fielding! Still, no power (a fatal flaw in a corner OFer), and good for only a 1.0 fWAR. But that's a lot closer than I would have thought.

And now you have a provocative post -- but that's extremely different than your first idea: "Despite Reddick's start, Sox still have a good chance to come out ahead in the Reddick-for-Sweeny-and-Bailey trade!" (At least in the short term, if Bailey comes back and pitches to his career norm.)

Be ambitious. Why stop there? Why not similarly grade all of Ben Cherington's moves. Do the same analysis to Theo, Duquette. Compare them! Now that would be a post! You'd be elected Mayor of SoSH! It might take a full week of research, but, hey! What else have you got on your plate? It's not like you're an astronaut or tallship captain or something. (Or maybe you are?)

Know your audience. This is true wherever you go in life. But here, on this site, you should fully expect a handful of jerks to pounce on a half-assed and ill-considered post, just like what would happen on any other Internet site devoted to a single topic and peopled with thousands of geeked-out obsessive fans of that topic. That's the negative. The positive is, that if you take your time, do your research, and post a topic that's intriguing, provocative, and with loads of evidence, not only will you have learned something by writing it, you'll get dozens of responses, building on what you wrote, challenging it, and we'll have a really cool conversation going.

/two cents

PS: Thanks for calling us "hip"!

[DrewDawg]

However, rather than circling an infrequent and lame poster like a group of sharks smelling blood, it might be a bit more charitable to simply let the thread die without the snide comments.

Oooh, this shows that while you may get "it", you may not get SoSH.

Better luck next time.

[AimingForYoko]

I'm sorry but,

[Monbonthbump]

touchstone033: I appreciate your thoughtful and respectful reply to my original rant. Your response certainly stays within the bounds of what used to pass as civil discourse and is now waved off as uninteresting blather on message boards. I'll try to be more thoughtful should I ever deign to begin another thread. However, do not expect me to consult Fangraphs or similar statistically obsessed sites because I have too few ticks left on my clock to worry about them. My relationship to baseball ,as it is to life any more, is mostly emotional and the reason the ill-fated thread was begun was because I just noticed Reddick had a mammoth day on Friday and I had always liked the kid. Thanks for paying any attention at all to my ramblings and Peace. And, by the way, is it still hip to use the word "hip"?

[URI]

If you have to ask...no.

[BoredViewer]

Hey... stacking this trade up against others in history will be hard - because time is needed for everything to shake out. But... I feel you. If Reddick ends this year with .280 33HR 105RBI - not to mention the arm of Roberto Clemente - and we get a decent platoon 4th outfielder and a guy that averages 1 major injury and 40IP/year... then the trade will certainly belong in the discussion!

[alwyn96]

However, do not expect me to consult Fangraphs or similar statistically obsessed sites because I have too few ticks left on my clock to worry about them. My relationship to baseball ,as it is to life any more, is mostly emotional and the reason the ill-fated thread was begun was because I just noticed Reddick had a mammoth day on Friday and I had always liked the kid.

I guess I would also add that, like in real life, it is not always productive to express every emotional thought without thinking about it a tiny bit first. I've certainly learned that one the hard way a few times. Since discussion boards are not like actual talking in that you can explain yourself in an easy back-and-forth, I think people tend to expect a slightly higher level of discourse than a regular conversation.

[jon abbey]

Hey... stacking this trade up against others in history will be hard - because time is needed for everything to shake out. But... I feel you. If Reddick ends this year with .280 33HR 105RBI - not to mention the arm of Roberto Clemente - and we get a decent platoon 4th outfielder and a guy that averages 1 major injury and 40IP/year... then the trade will certainly belong in the discussion!

No, that would be in the ballpark of one Jeff Bagwell season, and he put up 14 of them, with 449 career HRs and a .948 OPS:

http://www.baseball-...bagweje01.shtml

[travis bickled]

However, do not expect me to consult Fangraphs or similar statistically obsessed sites because I have too few ticks left on my clock to worry about them. My relationship to baseball ,as it is to life any more, is mostly emotional and the reason the ill-fated thread was begun was because I just noticed Reddick had a mammoth day on Friday and I had always liked the kid.

I guess I would also add that, like in real life, it is not always productive to express every emotional thought without thinking about it a tiny bit first. I've certainly learned that one the hard way a few times. Since discussion boards are not like actual talking in that you can explain yourself in an easy back-and-forth, I think people tend to expect a slightly higher level of discourse than a regular conversation.

Alwyn...I can attest to your comment...my failure to express myself appropriately(?) (via email) regarding my subscription earned me a lifetime ban.

Edited by travis bickled, 14 May 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[BoredViewer]

No, that would be in the ballpark of one Jeff Bagwell season, and he put up 14 of them, with 449 career HRs and a .948 OPS:

http://www.baseball-...bagweje01.shtml

But it would likely be better than Bagwell's first couple of seasons... which is why I said it belongs in the discussion. Obviously Bagwell went on to have an amazing (likely PED-enhanced) career... but I don't think that precludes us from ever evaluating any other "awful" trade.

You know it's possible to have discussions, comparisons and talk about the similarities without waiting to see how Reddick's career turns out.

Edited by BoredViewer, 14 May 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[NoMaRRaMoN]

Obviously Bagwell went on to have an amazing (likely PED-enhanced) career...

Why is that likely? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

[BoredViewer]

Why is that likely? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

I don't know anything you don't know. And to the best of my knowledge, nor do quite a few HoF voters... but, they have reached the same conclusion as I have.

[alwyn96]

Why is that likely? What do you know that the rest of us don't?

I guess that he was a power hitter in the 1990's? There's no evidence that he used, other than he was a good baseball player during that era. For some people that's all the evidence they need.

[jon abbey]

But it would likely be better than Bagwell's first couple of seasons... which is why I said it belongs in the discussion. Obviously Bagwell went on to have an amazing (likely PED-enhanced) career... but I don't think that precludes us from ever evaluating any other "awful" trade.

You know it's possible to have discussions, comparisons and talk about the similarities without waiting to see how Reddick's career turns out.

Discussions of course, comparisons and imagined similarities not for at least ten years IMO.

And this is the point, this is why that thread was locked. If the original post there had begun with:

"After last night's results and the way this year has unfolded, is the Reddick/Bailey trade shaping up as a lousy move?"

Then SoSH-worthy discussion could have ensued. But instead it actually began with:

"After last night's results and the way this year has unfolded, is the Reddick/Bailey trade shaping up as the worst since Ruth?"

Do you see the difference? Nothing good can come from an opening post like that.

[BoredViewer]

I can see where you're coming from... but, I didn't have too much trouble figuring out that the comparison he was using was mostly one of frustration and exaggeration. I didn't see it as too difficult of an opening to transition the conversation into an obvious discussion of how this trade might be shaping up to be another in the line of recent bad trades.

The immediate responses seemed a bit dick-ish.

[Monbonthbump]

Thanks, BoredViewer, for your support of my ill conceived and much maligned initial thread which was intended as hyperbole. I didn't know that it would be scrutinized like a doctoral dissertation. And it did seem to immediately attract a swarm of dicks as thick as horesflies on a cow turd. I'm ok with that, since I'm sure there are plenty of unpleasant personalities who are good Red Sox fans. I suppose my final salient point on this followup thread is to remind the mods that this somewhat hidden nook of SOSH is supposed to be a forum to give infrequent posters, who couldn't give a rats ass about being a member, an outlet to say something on occasion, lame as it may be. While I appreciate their honest attempts to somewhat patronizingly "correct" me, I have enjoyed reading the responses to this followup thread which somehow have managed to range all the way to Jeff Bagwell. I think that is the reason most of us spend any time perusing a message board and I think SOSH is one which sometimes takes itself a bit too seriously.

[msw6880]

There are plenty of other places on the internet to discuss the Red Sox.

[absintheofmalaise]

Thanks, BoredViewer, for your support of my ill conceived and much maligned initial thread which was intended as hyperbole. I didn't know that it would be scrutinized like a doctoral dissertation. And it did seem to immediately attract a swarm of dicks as thick as horesflies on a cow turd. I'm ok with that, since I'm sure there are plenty of unpleasant personalities who are good Red Sox fans. I suppose my final salient point on this followup thread is to remind the mods that this somewhat hidden nook of SOSH is supposed to be a forum to give infrequent posters, who couldn't give a rats ass about being a member, an outlet to say something on occasion, lame as it may be. While I appreciate their honest attempts to somewhat patronizingly "correct" me, I have enjoyed reading the responses to this followup thread which somehow have managed to range all the way to Jeff Bagwell. I think that is the reason most of us spend any time perusing a message board and I think SOSH is one which sometimes takes itself a bit too seriously.

No one is asking you, or telling you, that you need to use stats or write a doctoral dissertation when you post. What we do expect you to do is put some thought into your posts and use some logic and reason for making whatever statement you happen to be making at the time. Your thread was locked because it was written without any logic or reason. If you can't follow those pretty simple guidelines, then enjoy the Remy Report.

Oh, and thanks for telling us what the Sandbox is for.

[Monbonthbump]

Please don't send me to the Remy Report, Sirs. And I was only trying to define what the Sandbox (a somewhat demeaning appellation in itself) signifies for me, not for anyone else. And might I have another bowl of porridge?

[BoredViewer]

There are plenty of other places on the internet to discuss the Red Sox.

Says the Lurker with 25 posts in 6 years that apparently spends most of his time in the Patriots and Soccer forums...

Awesome.

[adam42381]

Says the Lurker with 25 posts in 6 years that apparently spends most of his time in the Patriots and Soccer forums...

Awesome.

Zing!

[absintheofmalaise]

Says the Lurker with 25 posts in 6 years that apparently spends most of his time in the Patriots and Soccer forums...

Awesome.

We make people members based on just their posts in those forums. You don't have to post about baseball. We've also made people members with fewer than 25 posts. I see that you were asked to become a member. Any reason you feel more comfortable posting in here than posting on the main board?

[touchstone033]

Any reason you feel more comfortable posting in here than posting on the main board?

Somewhat off the topic: I'm a member but still can't post on the main board. Is there a known fix? Or should I contact support?

[DrewDawg]

Somewhat off the topic: I'm a member but still can't post on the main board. Is there a known fix? Or should I contact support?

I'm pretty sure you need to buy a subsciption now.

[absintheofmalaise]

Somewhat off the topic: I'm a member but still can't post on the main board. Is there a known fix? Or should I contact support?

Have you paid for the subscription?

[touchstone033]

Have you paid for the subscription?

I'm not able to. When I click on the subscription page, I get "An Error Occurred" and "could not locate invoice." Etc & co.

[Muddy Chicken]

I'm sorry, I've been lurking for a while now here on SOSH, but what's with the subscription? Do we have to pay to play?
But more importantly, I'm loving this thread, so much fun here!
Be well.

Edit: Glad I have more than 25 posts!

Edited by Muddy Chicken, 17 May 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[travis bickled]

Touchstone....

You might have some luck if you follow the suggestions here ->.http://sonsofsamhorn...now-what-to-do/

Limit your expectations tho...SoSH has failed miserably (as compared to what is does well) when it comes to managing subscription issues and PM requests to resolve them.

Edited by travis bickled, 17 May 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Monbonthbump]

Hey, success. I actually started a thread which some people thought didn't suck. I'll make one final point and then crawl back under my lurker rock. I really do get the point made by the mods that threads should not be started without some forethought. And I do appreciate the effort they make to keep the site free from trolls and jerks (for the most part). I can assure them that I am neither. However, a random emotional outburst can initiate an interesting series of responses as this thread proves. the reason I came here in the first place was after purchasing Win it for.... after 2004. It contains some of the best and most honest writing that I have seen on any sports blog and perhaps it is time the mods reread it. They will have trouble finding any statistical arguments or facts within.

[alwyn96]

However, a random emotional outburst can initiate an interesting series of responses as this thread proves. the reason I came here in the first place was after purchasing Win it for.... after 2004. It contains some of the best and most honest writing that I have seen on any sports blog and perhaps it is time the mods reread it. They will have trouble finding any statistical arguments or facts within.

No one has suggested that this is purely a stat site, and as you said, good, thought-out, honest writing is appreciated. If you think Win it for... is a collection of random, poorly thought-out emotional outbursts, than I'd suggest you need to reread it. I think that's an insult to much of the writing in there - people put lots of thought into those posts.

Edited by alwyn96, 17 May 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[absintheofmalaise]

Hey, success. I actually started a thread which some people thought didn't suck. I'll make one final point and then crawl back under my lurker rock. I really do get the point made by the mods that threads should not be started without some forethought. And I do appreciate the effort they make to keep the site free from trolls and jerks (for the most part). I can assure them that I am neither. However, a random emotional outburst can initiate an interesting series of responses as this thread proves. the reason I came here in the first place was after purchasing Win it for.... after 2004. It contains some of the best and most honest writing that I have seen on any sports blog and perhaps it is time the mods reread it. They will have trouble finding any statistical arguments or facts within.

Speaking of reading things again, I suggest you read what I wrote about posting earlier in the thread. I specifically said you don't need to use stats.

[Monbonthbump]

Alwyn96: Speaking of rereading, take another look at the post you quoted. What I said was that Win it for... contains some of the best and most honest writing I've seen. This is hardly an insult. Please try not to be so defensive. After all aren't we supposed to be one big "nation" here?

[The Best Catch in 100 Years]

I don't know anything you don't know. And to the best of my knowledge, nor do quite a few HoF voters... but, they have reached the same conclusion as I have.

yeah that really means a lot

[BoredViewer]

We make people members based on just their posts in those forums. You don't have to post about baseball. We've also made people members with fewer than 25 posts. I see that you were asked to become a member. Any reason you feel more comfortable posting in here than posting on the main board?

$$$$$.

yeah that really means a lot

I don't know what to tell you. You think Bagwell didn't use PEDs. I think there is a very good chance he did. I don't really care to try and convince you.

Anyway... Josh hit his 12th tonight and at this point in the season is certainly in the mix for the starting RF spot in the ASG.

Edited by BoredViewer, 26 May 2012 - 12:57 AM.

[jon abbey]

That is way too many dollar signs for a $20 annual fee.

[Monbonthbump]

Here are some stats: Josh (the next Babe Ruth) Reddick, HR-19, RBI, 41. I think he may have stashed Gonzales' power in his duffelbag before he left for Oakland.