60 replies to this topic

[Rudy Pemberton]

Another disastrous outing for the worst pitcher in the AL. The peripherals are a joke. Would love to hear a reason why this guy shouldn't be doing his pitching in Rhode Island.

[TheYellowDart5]

So at this point, something has to change, right? At the very least, they can't keep running Buchholz out there every five days to take a beating. But if they pull him out of the rotation, what do they do with him? And who replaces him?

If someone wants to separate that out from the (excellent) analysis going on here, please feel free. But clearly, something is very wrong with Buchholz.

[Rasputin]

Another disastrous outing for the worst pitcher in the AL. The peripherals are a joke. Would love to hear a reason why this guy shouldn't be doing his pitching in Rhode Island.

So at this point, something has to change, right? At the very least, they can't keep running Buchholz out there every five days to take a beating. But if they pull him out of the rotation, what do they do with him? And who replaces him?

If someone wants to separate that out from the (excellent) analysis going on here, please feel free. But clearly, something is very wrong with Buchholz.

Rhode Island doesn't want him and at the moment the best option to replace him might be Aceves.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

So at this point, something has to change, right? At the very least, they can't keep running Buchholz out there every five days to take a beating. But if they pull him out of the rotation, what do they do with him? And who replaces him?

12 step program to a Buchholz-free rotation.

• 5/7 - Matsuzaka 50 pitches in AAA; Doubront starts @ KC
• 5/8 - Bard @ KCR
• 5/9 - Lester @ KCR
• 5/10 Beckett vs CLE
• 5/11 Matsuzaka 60 pitches in AAA; Padilla starts bullpen game vs CLE
• 5/12 Doubront vs CLE
• 5/13 Bard vs. CLE
• 5/14 Lester vs. CLE
• 5/15 Beckett vs SEA
• 5/16 Matsuzaka 80 pitches vs SEA
• 5/17 Doubront @ TBR
• 5/18 Bard @ SEA

[TomRicardo]

Daisuke is pitching tomorrow in RI and has looked good in his rehab starts. I don't think finding a replacement is the problem.

[NDame616]

Daisuke is pitching tomorrow in RI and has looked good in his rehab starts. I don't think finding a replacement is the problem.

Did anyone think a year ago someone would be suggesting we replace Buchholz with DiceK in the rotation?

(not that it isn't a viable option, and maybe the best one. I just think it's funny the way things work out...)

[mabrowndog]

Ricardo's right. That's the answer.

But that's a problem for Thursday. Right now they need to get another fresh arm (or two, if possible) on the roster. And Buchholz's departure from the 25-man needs to be part of the solution.

If they DL him they can recall Tazawa earlier than his 10-day minimum stay at AAA, since he'd be an injury replacement. If they option him, it's likely the return of Melancon. They might end up having to DL Clay regardless if he gets claimed on optional assignment waivers.

To get Daisuke on the roster next week, they can option Mortensen. Or, if Miller reverts to his wild ways in his next 1 or 2 outings, they can trade/DFA him. The problem is very few pitchers on the staff are (a) capable of being optioned, or (b) dispensable.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Ricardo's right. That's the answer.

But that's a problem for Thursday. Right now they need to get another fresh arm (or two, if possible) on the roster. And Buchholz's departure from the 25-man needs to be part of the solution.

If they DL him they can recall Tazawa earlier than his 10-day minimum stay at AAA, since he'd be an injury replacement. If they option him, it's likely the return of Melancon. They might end up having to DL Clay regardless if he gets claimed on optional assignment waivers.

To get Daisuke on the roster next week, they can option Mortensen. Or, if Miller reverts to his wild ways in his next 1 or 2 outings, they can trade/DFA him. The problem is very few pitchers on the staff are (a) capable of being optioned, or (b) dispensable.

Matsuzaka is ready to pitch, but should be on a limited pitch count. Tazawa threw over 30 pitches today as well.

I say Ben options Buchholz, activates DiceK, and starts him tomorrow on an 80-pitch count with Doubront as a piggyback bullpen arm to carry the last 4-5 IP.

With luck, it will only take the two of them. But if not, Padilla is still available. Possibly Mortensen, if it goes extras.

[BosRedSox5]

DL... or AAA? There doesn't seem to be an option for burning him at the stake.

Seriously, I love the Dice-Doubie combo. Let's try that. If Dice-K saves our season then the Corvus brachyrhynchos is going to become an endangered species in New England.

[mabrowndog]

Matsuzaka is ready to pitch, but should be on a limited pitch count. Tazawa threw over 30 pitches today as well.

I say Ben options Buchholz, activates DiceK, and starts him tomorrow on an 80-pitch count with Doubront as a piggyback bullpen arm to carry the last 4-5 IP.

With luck, it will only take the two of them. But if not, Padilla is still available. Possibly Mortensen, if it goes extras.

I like your Plan B a lot better than my Plan A. If Mortensen winds up pitching tomorrow, they can bring up Melancon on Tuesday. I hadn't checked to see if Tazawa worked today; sucks that he's not a viable option for the pen right now.

Tazawa can be recalled without a corresponding DL move as of this Friday, so if needed he can replace Mortensen/Melancon or Miller if they cut bait.

Edited by mabrowndog, 06 May 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

If someone were to claim Buchholz, would you pull him back, or let him go?

[FelixMantilla]

If Royal Rooters were to claim Rudy, would SoSH pull him back, or let him go?

[Rasputin]

If someone were to claim Buchholz, would you pull him back, or let him go?

Of course you pull him back. You pull on his arm, real hard, and wrench it a bit requiring a DL stay.

If Royal Rooters were to claim Rudy, would SoSH pull him back, or let him go?

Eh...Rudy...how's your arm?

[Rudy Pemberton]

Let's be realistic, they'd never claim me.

Regarding Buchholz, I don't think they'd give him away but I could see a trade. He doesn't seem like the type who will accept a demotion well, perhaps a fresh start is needed.

I think he still has value, but if he has another lost year, he won't. Is a trade of an established player too far fetched to be considered?

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 06 May 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[mabrowndog]

If someone were to claim Buchholz, would you pull him back, or let him go?

I'd like to think this wasn't a serious question, but I fear that it was.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Regarding Buchholz, I don't think they'd give him away but I could see a trade. He doesn't seem like the type who will accept a demotion well, perhaps a fresh start is needed.

I think he still has value, but if he has another lost year, he won't. Is a trade of an established player too far fetched to be considered?

Since it seems unlikely that this season is going anywhere anyway, wouldn't we be better served spending the next 4 1/2 months trying to get Buchholz back to where he's supposed to be than dumping him at an all time low value?

[Rudy Pemberton]

I think his value could become much lower, frankly. The guy had one nice year where his ERA was way better than his peripherals, but other than that? Is it really absurd to suggest moving him might be beneficial? I mean, we are talking about sending the guy down so there's obviously some issues here, and with Matsuzaka coming back, I don't know. Is he a cornerstone to build around, or someone who doesn't get it?

[Sprowl]

I think his value could become much lower, frankly. The guy had one nice year where his ERA was way better than his peripherals, but other than that? Is it really absurd to suggest moving him might be beneficial? I mean, we are talking about sending the guy down so there's obviously some issues here, and with Matsuzaka coming back, I don't know. Is he a cornerstone to build around, or someone who doesn't get it?

Let's see -- he threw a no-hitter in 2007. He had a very solid early 2008, before the brain trust decided that June 2008 was the time to switch his arm slot (not the offseason, where most major mechanical changes are prescribed). He had a fine comeback 2009 with the new arm angle, including the best changeup seen in a decade. Before getting sent to the DL in 2011, he had a dominant May.

Signs of Buchholz's high ceiling: 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011.

Signs of RudyP's sanity? Still waiting...

[bosockboy]

If they fade I think Beckett is the guy they want to move.

[Rudy Pemberton]

So you think he'll happily go to the minors, get his shit together, and return to form and live happily ever after with the Red Sox? Sorry I'd I'm skeptical, although I guess the most likely scenario here is that he's hurt.

[bd11]

How many options does he have left?

[Sprowl]

So you think he'll happily go to the minors, get his shit together, and return to form and live happily ever after with the Red Sox? Sorry I'd I'm skeptical, although I guess the most likely scenario here is that he's hurt.

Fükk you. Don't try to put words in my mouth, or you'll never eat lunch on this board again. I don't care if you're sorry, I care if you've got a rational thought to express. If you've got a diagnosis, present it. If you've got skepticism, then give a logical reason for it. If you're wasting our time, then go away and don't come back. What did he hurt? Are you expecting a spondylosis recurrence, and if so, why? There's a reason why you are a laughing stock on this board, and it's because of your failure to present any logic or reason to support your guesses.

[CaptainLaddie]

He's not going to the minors. He'd have to pass through some different version of waivers where other teams would get a crack at him -- he's not going to pass through that.

DL him, let him get his mechanics and head straight and let the other guys pick up the slack. The offense has to score 7-8 runs every time he pitches, which is unfair.

Edited by CaptainLaddie, 06 May 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

So you think he'll happily go to the minors, get his shit together, and return to form and live happily ever after with the Red Sox? Sorry I'd I'm skeptical, although I guess the most likely scenario here is that he's hurt.

As I said multiple times throughout spring training -- I don't care whether Buchholz or any of these guys are happy. But I do care about their productivity.

By which I mean is Clay keeping the ball in the damn yard. He's allowed 10 HR in under 33 IP. That's terrible, and needs to be worked on somewhere other than MLB games.

He's given up more runs than Bard and Doubront combined. He can rot in Rhode Island for the whole season, as far as I'm concerned, if he can't figure his mechanics out before then. That's what options are for. Use them.

[MikeM]

For soon to be 28 year old who's never thrown a 200 IP season in his career, and has registered just one 100 IP+ season in the bigs since his debut in 2007, going down for a second consecutive season with a back issue raised a pretty bright red flag imo. Throw in the reportedly poor conditioning habits, and this season's massive struggle on top of that, and i'm currently having a hard time seeing Buchholz as the same pillar'type piece of this team's future going forward as we all initially hoped he'd be. From that perspective, i can somewhat see where (i think) Rudy was attempting to come from there.

Still, that contract he signed is as (potentially) team-friendly as it gets, and with the lack of alternative options/internal hopefuls, yeah - obviously you pull him back. Now if this was the upcoming off-season where there was a readily available free agent starter out there we liked/ideally wanted to sign, and it took freeing up Clay's salary/commitment to make it the reality i'm otherwise not expecting to be there (personally projecting a similar financial squeeze to play itself out this winter)...that's a potentially different story imo.

[czar]

For soon to be 28 year old who's never thrown a 200 IP season in his career, and has registered just one 100 IP+ season in the bigs since his debut in 2007, going down for a second consecutive season with a back issue raised a pretty bright red flag imo. Throw in the reportedly poor conditioning habits...

I think the first bolded comment is unfair. Buchholz has thrown...

2006: 129 IP (between A and A+)
2007: 148 IP (AA, AAA, MLB)
2008: 155.2 IP (AAA, MLB, AZ fall)
2009: 191 IP (AAA, MLB)
2010: 177.1 IP (AAA, MLB)
2011: 82.2 IP (MLB)

None of these count playoff innings.

He had a leg injury from running the bases in 2010 and the back in 2011. (Knock on wood) I don't recall him having a single arm or otherwise chronic injury while in the Sox fold. Other than that his IP are consistent with the organization ramping up his workload year after year.

On the second bolded comment-- outside of potentially the "fried chicken fiasco," I'd be curious if you have any evidence that backs up his "reportedly poor conditioning." He has always been lauded as a phenomenal runner (BP and Globe commentary) and just the other night (in the OAK game) Gammons claimed he was one of the most athletic pitchers he had seen (senile Gammo or not). While I've never heard anything about Buchholz being the model worker when it comes to getting to the park early, lifting, whatever, I've also never heard anything that implies the opposite, either.

[HriniakPosterChild]

On the second bolded comment-- outside of potentially the "fried chicken fiasco," I'd be curious if you have any evidence that backs up his "reportedly poor conditioning."

Also, the "back issue" was a stress fracture, and perhaps one of the medical people could say something about this, but I don't think that a stress fracture is a sign that the guy was out of shape.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

Also, the "back issue" was a stress fracture, and perhaps one of the medical people could say something about this, but I don't think that a stress fracture is a sign that the guy was out of shape.

If you have a weak core(for pitchers, this would include both abdominal and proximal leg muscles), it can definitely cause additional stress to be transferred to your low back - so while I'm not saying his poor conditioning caused his injury, it certainly didn't help.

Oh, that and the fact that he's a trifling, sniveling little douchewhistle isn't helping his cause, either.

[MikeM]

I think the first bolded comment is unfair. Buchholz has thrown...

2006: 129 IP (between A and A+)
2007: 148 IP (AA, AAA, MLB)
2008: 155.2 IP (AAA, MLB, AZ fall)
2009: 191 IP (AAA, MLB)
2010: 177.1 IP (AAA, MLB)
2011: 82.2 IP (MLB)

None of these count playoff innings.

He had a leg injury from running the bases in 2010 and the back in 2011. (Knock on wood) I don't recall him having a single arm or otherwise chronic injury while in the Sox fold. Other than that his IP are consistent with the organization ramping up his workload year after year.

If i recall correctly, Buchholz was reportedly dealing with back issues all through the latter stages of 2010 (although still pitching well through it), which ultimately led to him being scratched in his final start of the season. Fast forward to spring 2011, the extension, and reports that he was in tip top physical condition. Then the back popping up again as the summer months emerge. Was/is that a sign of it being a "chronic" problem? IDK, but like i said, it struck me as being fairly worthy of red flag consideration.

As far as the innings thing go, if Clay was the same 24 year old kid that Lester was when he started pumping out his top of the rotation type innings, i'd agree that i was being entirely too harsh there. He's not though. Nor are those statistically suggested prime years still ahead of him, they're already upon us. So while i'm not trying to dismiss that workload sample outright by any means, imo it's carrying a lot less weight behind it then it otherwise might/would in any "this is a guy that after a few hiccups is going on to be an anchoring force in a rotation for years to come" claim/projection from here on out.

On the second bolded comment-- outside of potentially the "fried chicken fiasco," I'd be curious if you have any evidence that backs up his "reportedly poor conditioning." He has always been lauded as a phenomenal runner (BP and Globe commentary) and just the other night (in the OAK game) Gammons claimed he was one of the most athletic pitchers he had seen (senile Gammo or not). While I've never heard anything about Buchholz being the model worker when it comes to getting to the park early, lifting, whatever, I've also never heard anything that implies the opposite, either.

The chicken fiasco obviously plays big into that current perception (why i made it a point to label my claim "reportedly", btw), but from the individual standpoint, i'm also admittedly going on my own individual observations over the years (not that i'd certainly expect that to be worth much of anything outside such, mind you). As a personal trainer living down in Florida, and somebody who frequently makes the hour drive over, the rather unhealthy highlight of every spring for me has always been the "who's coming into camp in bad shape" evaluations. I've been down on Clay ever since that camp of 2010, when/where he checked in at an "i've ate more" 200lbs that i evaluated as being more of a "hadn't touched a weight or treadmill all winter". Granted he went on to have the year that he did...but still. For me, the individual assessment that this is a guy coasting along on what his youthful talent had to offer just stuck.

Is that unfair and potentially way off base? Maybe. Evidence? Absolutely not. Won't argue any of that in the slightest, but that's where my personal perception stands atm, especially with those clubhouse stories of 2011 not helping to suggest anything different.

(that Globe article you linked talked about him being fast btw, which isn't quite the same as being the type of accomplished runner which would in turn suggest an effort at maintaining one's physical conditioning. That, and the shoulder fatigue thing)

[jon abbey]

12 step program to a Buchholz-free rotation.

• 5/7 - Matsuzaka 50 pitches in AAA; Doubront starts @ KC
• 5/8 - Bard @ KCR
• 5/9 - Lester @ KCR
• 5/10 Beckett vs CLE
• 5/11 Matsuzaka 60 pitches in AAA; Padilla starts bullpen game vs CLE
• 5/12 Doubront vs CLE
• 5/13 Bard vs. CLE
• 5/14 Lester vs. CLE
• 5/15 Beckett vs SEA
• 5/16 Matsuzaka 80 pitches vs SEA
• 5/17 Doubront @ TBR
• 5/18 Bard @ SEA

Just curious if you meant to have Dice-K going on 3 days rest between 5/7 and 5/11 (with any other pitcher, I'd be sure it was a mistake).

[worm0082]

But if they pull him out of the rotation, what do they do with him? And who replaces him?

Wakefield. I'm only half joking.

[YTF]

Wakefield. I'm only half joking.

He would have to start AND relieve in the same game. Wish I were joking.

[Eric Van]

But if they pull him out of the rotation, what do they do with him? And who replaces him?

You just call up one of the AAA starters who's on option, right? Or, failing that, you select one who hasn't had his option clock started.

Oh, wait ... the entire AAA rotation is ml veterans, because you converted Tazawa, Mortsensen, and Wilson to the pen, leaving you without anybody you could call up for a start or two.

The best PawSox starter has been Justin Germano, who could pitch on the 11th on six days rest if he's passed over on the 9th. However, he's out of options and would have to be DFA'd when Dice-K is ready. Ohlendorf and Mathis both have an option left (they'd have to clear optional assignment waivers, but no one would claim them) and could hence be recalled and not lost from the organization ... but neither has pitched well.

When was the last time the Sox didn't have a starting pitcher they could recall? I can't recall.

[NDame616]

Still, that contract he signed is as (potentially) team-friendly as it gets,

While I admit his contract isn't in the ballpark of Lackey's, he is owed $25M over the next 3 seasons.....which isn't bad if he pitches well, but if he doesn't show significant improvement, we will have to send money to any team we try to trade trade him to (which I'm not saying we SHOULD do, but IF we do)

[Lose Remerswaal]

You just call up one of the AAA starters who's on option, right? Or, failing that, you select one who hasn't had his option clock started.

Oh, wait ... the entire AAA rotation is ml veterans, because you converted Tazawa, Mortsensen, and Wilson to the pen, leaving you without anybody you could call up for a start or two.

The best PawSox starter has been Justin Germano, who could pitch on the 11th on six days rest if he's passed over on the 9th. However, he's out of options and would have to be DFA'd when Dice-K is ready. Ohlendorf and Mathis both have an option left (they'd have to clear optional assignment waivers, but no one would claim them) and could hence be recalled and not lost from the organization ... but neither has pitched well.

When was the last time the Sox didn't have a starting pitcher they could recall? I can't recall.

And it's a problem to DFA Germano? Or to lose Duckworth or Ohlendorf?

Better that than resigning Wakefield (don't think pink hats and others aren't suggesting that because they are) or doing a "bullpen game" (which you can't do in a 20 game/20 day stretch) or starting Darnell.

It's easy to tell us what can't be done. Tell us what CAN be done.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Just curious if you meant to have Dice-K going on 3 days rest between 5/7 and 5/11 (with any other pitcher, I'd be sure it was a mistake).

Yes -- instead of upping Matsuzaka's pitch count to 100 today in AAA (so that he can throw another 100+ at AAA on 4-days rest), I would have him throw 50-60 today and the same number on 3-days rest.

It's not ideal, but what is with the Red Sox these days. And the reduced number of pitches should allow his arm to handle the decreased rest.

[OttoC]

He's not going to the minors. He'd have to pass through some different version of waivers where other teams would get a crack at him -- he's not going to pass through that.

DL him, let him get his mechanics and head straight and let the other guys pick up the slack. The offense has to score 7-8 runs every time he pitches, which is unfair.

Alex Speier points out that Buchholz has an option left, so he can be sent to the minors, but since his big-league debut is more than three years ago, he will have to pass through optional (revocable) waivers and that teams tend to treat that as a procedural formality and it is quite possible that no claim would be made on him.

[EddieYost]

Alex Speier points out that Buchholz has an option left, so he can be sent to the minors, but since his big-league debut is more than three years ago, he will have to pass through optional (revocable) waivers and that teams tend to treat that as a procedural formality and it is quite possible that no claim would be made on him.

And if someone did claim him they would be on the hook for a relatively large contract. So the Red Sox could just let him go. Not that they would, but the contract makes it even less likely that he would get claimed.

[BosRedSox5]

Sure, its possible he gets through waivers, but Kevin Millar's waiver process was thought of as a proceedural formality as well. If a team wants a player badly enough they're going to throw professional courtesy out the window and snap them up. Buchholz has shown a lot of talent and I doubt he makes it through waivers unclaimed. They are revocable, so it might still be worth a shot though.

If we need a pitcher badly enough, why isn't anyone talking about Roy Oswalt? I know he said he wasn't signing until after June, but maybe we could work something out...

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

And if someone did claim him they would be on the hook for a relatively large contract. So the Red Sox could just let him go. Not that they would, but the contract makes it even less likely that he would get claimed.

Seems more likely, and practical, to DL him and hope he works out the kinks in his rehab starts.

[86spike]

And if someone did claim him they would be on the hook for a relatively large contract. So the Red Sox could just let him go. Not that they would, but the contract makes it even less likely that he would get claimed.

if his back is going to preclude him from ever repeating the mechanics he was successful with (conjecture, of course, but the team must have a opinion on this one way or another), then they might see dropping a useless $8M off the roster as a decent option.

[EddieYost]

Seems more likely, and practical, to DL him and hope he works out the kinks in his rehab starts.

I agree with that. The option to send him down is probably not necessary, given that they have already talked about a blister problem.

[czar]

As far as the innings thing go, if Clay was the same 24 year old kid that Lester was when he started pumping out his top of the rotation type innings, i'd agree that i was being entirely too harsh there. He's not though. Nor are those statistically suggested prime years still ahead of him, they're already upon us. So while i'm not trying to dismiss that workload sample outright by any means, imo it's carrying a lot less weight behind it then it otherwise might/would in any "this is a guy that after a few hiccups is going on to be an anchoring force in a rotation for years to come" claim/projection from here on out.

But the organization put a physical wall on Buchholz and told him to stop throwing IP. His age doesn't matter, he was not allowed to throw extra innings those seasons. Therefore, saying crap like "he's not a 200 IP workhorse!" is essentially nonsense. No one is arguing whether or not he's a rotation anchor, I'm just pointing out that your argument essentially claiming he's a frail pitcher because he had "just one 100 IP+ season in the bigs since his debut in 2007" is invalid for what you are trying to claim.

The chicken fiasco obviously plays big into that current perception (why i made it a point to label my claim "reportedly", btw), but from the individual standpoint, i'm also admittedly going on my own individual observations over the years (not that i'd certainly expect that to be worth much of anything outside such, mind you). As a personal trainer living down in Florida, and somebody who frequently makes the hour drive over, the rather unhealthy highlight of every spring for me has always been the "who's coming into camp in bad shape" evaluations. I've been down on Clay ever since that camp of 2010, when/where he checked in at an "i've ate more" 200lbs that i evaluated as being more of a "hadn't touched a weight or treadmill all winter". Granted he went on to have the year that he did...but still. For me, the individual assessment that this is a guy coasting along on what his youthful talent had to offer just stuck.

Is that unfair and potentially way off base? Maybe. Evidence? Absolutely not. Won't argue any of that in the slightest, but that's where my personal perception stands atm, especially with those clubhouse stories of 2011 not helping to suggest anything different.

This is vastly different from "reportedly poor conditioning habits." There is really no evidence from the media or otherwise to suggest Buchholz is lazy or poorly conditioned or whatever. Essentially what you are arguing (and it's your opinion, so that's fine) is that YOU think Buchholz is poorly conditioned.

I guess I just don't see how that is any different from when everyone was busy screaming "he's a headcase, just look at him!" when railing on early Lester starts or when people post "well, I had a similar injury to Jacoby Ellsbury, so here's what my prognosis is..." I guess you can argue they are more substantiative than nothing, but to start saying things like "whatever, Jacoby Ellsbury is frail and a whiner, let's trade him" doesn't really do anyone any good.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I agree with that. The option to send him down is probably not necessary, given that they have already talked about a blister problem.

No. The Sox need him to be able to work on his issues without a timetable.

There's a 30-day limit to rehab work on the DL, so he would need to identify, fix, and perfect the changes to whatever mechanical flaw is wrong -- all within a maximum of 5 starts.

There's no way he gets claimed on optional waivers when he's a fragile 9+ ERA pitcher due $28MM on a guaranteed contract.

[tonyarmasjr]

No. The Sox need him to be able to work on his issues without a timetable.

There's a 30-day limit to rehab work on the DL, so he would need to identify, fix, and perfect the changes to whatever mechanical flaw is wrong -- all within a maximum of 5 starts.

There's no way he gets claimed on optional waivers when he's a fragile 9+ ERA pitcher due $28MM on a guaranteed contract.

And they can pull him back if he does get claimed and then DL him. I don't know why you wouldn't at least try that route first.

[Harry Agganis]

If you have a weak core(for pitchers, this would include both abdominal and proximal leg muscles), it can definitely cause additional stress to be transferred to your low back - so while I'm not saying his poor conditioning caused his injury, it certainly didn't help.

Oh, that and the fact that he's a trifling, sniveling little douchewhistle isn't helping his cause, either.

I have to say he has been a trifling sniveling little douchewhistle. This colors my judgement to some degree. But he clearly is not cutting it now. We don't have to spare his feelings or worry if we will damage his fragile psyche. He can't be worse at this point. He is the worst starting pitcher in the league. Option him now do not delay.

Edited by Harry Agganis, 07 May 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[JakeRae]

Sure, its possible he gets through waivers, but Kevin Millar's waiver process was thought of as a proceedural formality as well. If a team wants a player badly enough they're going to throw professional courtesy out the window and snap them up. Buchholz has shown a lot of talent and I doubt he makes it through waivers unclaimed. They are revocable, so it might still be worth a shot though.

If we need a pitcher badly enough, why isn't anyone talking about Roy Oswalt? I know he said he wasn't signing until after June, but maybe we could work something out...

The Millar waiver process was different. It was a one-sided agreement whereby Japanese teams benefited and MLB teams played nice. There was no self-serving reason for MLB teams to honor that gentleman's agreement when one decided they wanted a player involved in the process. The optional assignment waivers agreement is different. It is a game theory situation in that the best possible situation for everyone is for the current status quo to be maintained. It would have to be of very large benefit to an organization to break this deal as it would hurt their long term flexibility. Plus, if a player is worth claiming, they are very likely worth pulling back, so the claiming team would gain nothing and break a precedent that is to the benefit of all.

[MikeM]

While I admit his contract isn't in the ballpark of Lackey's, he is owed $25M over the next 3 seasons.....which isn't bad if he pitches well, but if he doesn't show significant improvement, we will have to send money to any team we try to trade trade him to (which I'm not saying we SHOULD do, but IF we do)

Heh, i did add the *potentially* in there.

If he stays healthy, 2010-2011 success level Clay is an arguable steal at it's $7.5'ish AAV imo. The two team options with fairly minor buyout costs tacked on at the end, for his age 31-32 seasons, wouldn't be looking all that bad either (which still keeps it's AAV under $10m, for whatever that will end up being worth by then).

[941827]

If the Sox are intent on saving the season and want immediate starting help, the best action at this point may be trading Buchholz. With that in mind: Ryan Dempster for Buchholz. Who says no?

Dempster: $14mm; FA after 2012; pitching extremely well; durable; slides in as #3 starter; much better than Oswalt

Buchholz: $3.5mm; signed through 2015 w/ 2 team options; pitching poorly; probably could use a change of scenery; Theo loved him

Risks from the Cubs' perspective: (1) may be able to get even more for Dempster at the trade deadline; (2) may think Buchholz is too hard-headed to pull himself together.

Risks from the Sox's perspective: (1) big risk to cut bait on promising, young, cost-controlled starter; (2) Dempster may not be a #3 in the AL East.

[yecul]

Why would you scramble and start moving chairs around? The Sox are either going to get their shit together or they're not. Let Buchholz work out his issues. If he is a lost cause, then most likely so is the season, so it's moot as to whether they can find an upgrade for a couple starts.

Unless you people are stressing about finishing slightly above .500 rather than at or below that mark. Playoffs or bust, baby, and they need a strong rotation to get there.

Besides, we all know his arm is going to fall off. We just have to wait until the off season to hear how he's been hurt for his entire life and is now just telling someone about it.