21 replies to this topic

[Rudy Pemberton]

It's time to discuss the 13 man staff, and more importantly, the 3 man bench. Why is this happening? How can a team routinely starting such poor offensive players have a bench where the bats are Punto, McDonald, and Shoppach? There is one player backing up 3B, 2B, and SS. No legitimate backup at 1B. It's forcing the team to give important at bats to shitty players. Why can't Gomez, Lavarnway, or Linares replace the 8th reliever.

I mean, 13 pitchers? Long live Bill James and the smartest guys in the room.

[EddieYost]

I recall when 9 man staffs were just as likely as 10 man staffs. I remember thinking it was dumb when 11 man staffs became the norm. (Can I blame that on LaRussa too?). 13 is nuts. I would like to see more platooning and pinch hitting until they get healthier. Would love a 5 man bench with Lavarnway on it.

[Trautwein's Degree]

It's time to discuss the 13 man staff, and more importantly, the 3 man bench. Why is this happening? How can a team routinely starting such poor offensive players have a bench where the bats are Punto, McDonald, and Shoppach? There is one player backing up 3B, 2B, and SS. No legitimate backup at 1B. It's forcing the team to give important at bats to shitty players. Why can't Gomez, Lavarnway, or Linares replace the 8th reliever.

I mean, 13 pitchers? Long live Bill James and the smartest guys in the room.

Too bad Theo didn't take Ben with him to Chicago. This team is terrible. Depth was an issue last season. Failing to address depth was an issue this offseason. Trading away depth for nothing was more stupid. The sooner this roster and front office turn over - the sooner the Red Sox will return to being distinguishable from the Mets. When this season is done, we'll spend the winter pining for the days of consecutive third place finishes.

Edited by Trautwein's Degree, 06 May 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[mabrowndog]

It's time to discuss the 13 man staff, and more importantly, the 3 man bench. Why is this happening? How can a team routinely starting such poor offensive players have a bench where the bats are Punto, McDonald, and Shoppach? There is one player backing up 3B, 2B, and SS. No legitimate backup at 1B. It's forcing the team to give important at bats to shitty players. Why can't Gomez, Lavarnway, or Linares replace the 8th reliever.

I mean, 13 pitchers? Long live Bill James and the smartest guys in the room.

Well, part of the "13 pitchers" thing is they're on day 3 of a 20-day stretch with no off-days. Considering the starters as a group still aren't reliably or consistently working deep into games, it's a problem.

Of course, so is the vacuous offense so I agree with your point. But based on what I've seen of Mauro Gomez, he's not a major league hitter despite his impressive AAA numbers, and he's a pretty crappy fielder at 1B to boot. Lavarnway has been in a slump (.238 BA, .338 SLG) and has told reporters the Sox want him to focus on defense. Linares, despite seeming deserving of a AAA spot, is still in AA so there's little chance they jump him to the big club.

So it's really a double-edged sword.

[Rudy Pemberton]

The fact they don't have anyone better than Punto or McDonald to act as a bat off the bench is damning. Player development machine, my ass.

[mabrowndog]

The fact they don't have anyone better than Punto or McDonald to act as a bat off the bench is damning. Player development machine, my ass.

Yup, they suck at the plate. But even if they had any other players on the 40-man being developed in the minors as offensive machines, guys like that aren't often well-suited for bench roles requiring spot starts, pinch-hitting and late-inning defense. The Bernie Carbos and Doug Mirabellis of the world are rare breeds, and they usually develop an affinity for those roles after they've been in the majors a few years or after they've been down-graded from full-time starters due to age.

If they come up from the minors, most likely they'll suck in that role. For the few who don't, they're best upside is the Ted Cox/Daniel Nava path from hot shit in a champagne bottle to lukewarm diarrhea in a Dixie cup.

And even if you get that one stud who performs well over the short term while playing sparsely and being yo-yo'd between roles, you might end up short-circuiting his development.

Edited by mabrowndog, 06 May 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

The fact they don't have anyone better than Punto or McDonald to act as a bat off the bench is damning. Player development machine, my ass.

To be fair, good-hitting bench players are what you're supposed to be relying on cheap veterans for, not the farm system. Sadly, all of ours except Punto and McDonald seem to be pressed into starting duty.

Once again, when you've got a $70MM DL, it means there's not a whole lot of options left. Of course, Lowrie would look awfully good around here these days.

[Hendu's Gait]

Looks like they badly underestimated injuries, both in their severity (Hot Carl) and possibility (Ells, Youk, Bailey). Ross was supposed to be that bat of the bench, but he's had to start due to the injuries in LF and CF. Bailey's injury exacerbated a situation where there aren't enough bullpen arms and perhaps they feel they need for quantity over quantity (which is one of the fundamental errors of judgment in the Bobby V hiring). Then you have the mis-evaluation of Melancon and perhaps even Mortensen. A bench of Aviles/Ross/Shoppach/McDonald (with Lowrie or Scutaro and Ellsbury starting) would be better. I'm still boggled by the decision to get rid of BOTH Scutaro and Lowrie.

[Toe Nash]

Too bad Theo didn't take Ben with him to Chicago. This team is terrible. Depth was an issue last season. Failing to address depth was an issue this offseason. Trading away depth for nothing was more stupid. The sooner this roster and front office turn over - the sooner the Red Sox will return to being distinguishable from the Mets. When this season is done, we'll spend the winter pining for the days of consecutive third place finishes.

The depth Ben acquired has actually been pretty good and is a reason this team isn't worse than 11-15. Three position player starters are hurt, but Ross, Sweeney and Byrd have been decent to great. Punto sucks but he's been over-exposed, first by Youkilis's back and then by Middlebrooks's hammy, and he's been fine defensively. Shoppach has been alright.

The pieces they targeted for the pen turned out poorly, and Ben get blame for that. But if Crawford and Ellsbury were healthy (leaving Youk alone for a minute) one of Ross and Sweeney would always be available to pinch-hit and that would help immensely. And if they hadn't acquired those guys then McDonald and Byrd would be playing every day.

I do agree that with so many injuries having a 3-man bench really limits what the team can do offensively as a lot of important ABs are going to crummy hitters, or hitters batting against the wrong-handed pitcher for them. But the team is pretty deep offensively. I would like to see Lavarnway up until Youk comes back -- Even if he loses three weeks of "development time" I think it would be worth it to have a legit bat off the bench.

[Reverend]

Well, part of the "13 pitchers" thing is they're on day 3 of a 20-day stretch with no off-days. Considering the starters as a group still aren't reliably or consistently working deep into games, it's a problem.

Yep.

Looks like they badly underestimated injuries, both in their severity (Hot Carl) and possibility (Ells, Youk, Bailey). Ross was supposed to be that bat of the bench, but he's had to start due to the injuries in LF and CF. Bailey's injury exacerbated a situation where there aren't enough bullpen arms and perhaps they feel they need for quantity over quantity (which is one of the fundamental errors of judgment in the Bobby V hiring). Then you have the mis-evaluation of Melancon and perhaps even Mortensen. A bench of Aviles/Ross/Shoppach/McDonald (with Lowrie or Scutaro and Ellsbury starting) would be better. I'm still boggled by the decision to get rid of BOTH Scutaro and Lowrie.

[Pumpsie]

Pandora's Box reference. Nice.

And, let's face it, it's for all practical purposes, a two-man bench. Punto (.154) for the infield and McDonald (.178) for the outfield. The catcher won't be used until late in a game, if at all. So, really, the only sub that might be a good one would be McDonald batting for Sweeney against a lefty in a crucial situation. And that can be upended if the opposing manager brings in a lefty himself. The bench is practically useless, in other words, because the bench players have to be starting because of injuries and you don't want to use the kids on the bench. It's pretty depressing.

Aviles looks tired and could use a day off right now and now and again, I'm sure. Those ropes he was hitting to left are now grounders to second. But your only choice is Nick Punto. I'd rather have the tired Aviles...and those grounders to second...and that's awful.

Edited by Pumpsie, 06 May 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[twothousandone]

The fact they don't have anyone better than Punto or McDonald to act as a bat off the bench is damning. Player development machine, my ass.

Ty Wigginton is making $4 million for Washington. He's always been decent or better against lefties.

Would that have been a wise allocation?

So long as the OF is Ross, Sweeney and Byrd, McDonald should only be a back-up. Wigginton could PH for the corner guys against lefties, and McDonald could come in the play in the field. But that was $4 million they didn't have the offseason.

Can that be Lavarnway's role? Would he also PH for Aviles late, with Punto then taking over? I'm not sure he's a better choice. With Bobby V as manager, maybe there's a PH every other game. Even if they are all against lefties, is 3-4 at-bats a week enough for Lavarnway to be with the club?

[crystalline]

The bench is practically useless, in other words, because the bench players have to be starting because of injuries and you don't want to use the kids on the bench. It's pretty depressing.

To be fair, good-hitting bench players are what you're supposed to be relying on cheap veterans for, not the farm system. Sadly, all of ours except Punto and McDonald seem to be pressed into starting duty. Once again, when you've got a $70MM DL, it means there's not a whole lot of options left. Of course, Lowrie would look awfully good around here these days.

Yeah, with injuries you can't rely on cheap vets for the bench.

Because you only get to sign about 3 of them before your 25 man is full.

And then you can't sign cheap vets and send them to the minors - or rather, if you do that, you get the really crappy cheap vets that can't get a major league offer elsewhere.

One option is to do the Youk-style longterm Pawtucket shuttle, because you CAN keep good cheap young players in the minors as injury insurance. In this case we'd have kept Scutaro and Lowrie. But then you block potential good years from the young guys and you miss out on the chance to trade Scutaro for a good bullpen arm. (Yeah.)

Summary: maybe we should reallocate to a $60MM player development machine and a $40MM medical department.

[Harry Hooper]

Get ready for the 2-man bench in KC.

[The Gray Eagle]

Apparently 13 pitchers isn't enough, we still had an outfielder throwing the highest leverage inning of the game.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Three position player starters are hurt, but Ross, Sweeney and Byrd have been decent to great.

Can't disagree about Ross and Sweeney but Byrd is now at a 546 OPS in his time with the Sox. I guess that's better than what Repko was giving us, but not by much.

[CSteinhardt]

Little did we know it's actually a 2-man bench. Then again, don't we have a pitcher somewhere in our farm system who can hit better than McDonald

[trekfan55]

Can't disagree about Ross and Sweeney but Byrd is now at a 546 OPS in his time with the Sox. I guess that's better than what Repko was giving us, but not by much.

Byrd was acquired because he plays an acceptable CF defense. Repko was simply not cutting it there.

[Pumpsie]

As far as the bench goes, I think we could improve it a tad by cutting Punto outright and promoting Ciriaco to take his place. It's doubtful Cherington would do this, but it would help a little bit, I think.

[JakeRae]

As far as the bench goes, I think we could improve it a tad by cutting Punto outright and promoting Ciriaco to take his place. It's doubtful Cherington would do this, but it would help a little bit, I think.

How would a player with a career AAA batting line of .260/.276/.363 over 854 PA with a AAA line of .231/.243/.300 last year in 289 PA be an improvement over Nick Punto? As a comparison, Nick Punto has a career MLB batting line of .248/.325/.326 over 3018 PA and a .278/.388/.421 line last year in 166 PA.

[Pumpsie]

How would a player with a career AAA batting line of .260/.276/.363 over 854 PA with a AAA line of .231/.243/.300 last year in 289 PA be an improvement over Nick Punto? As a comparison, Nick Punto has a career MLB batting line of .248/.325/.326 over 3018 PA and a .278/.388/.421 line last year in 166 PA.

Because Ciriaco is doing better than that now and Punto is doing worse. It could well be that Ciriaco is approaching his best years in baseball as Punto is approaching his worst. Plus, Ciriaco gives you better speed on the bases and, right now, the Sox have NO baserunner sub.

Also, replacing Punto with Ciriaco would do wonders for the collective blood pressure of this board.

Edited by Pumpsie, 07 May 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Because Ciriaco is doing better than that now and Punto is doing worse. It could well be that Ciriaco is approaching his best years in baseball as Punto is approaching his worst. Plus, Ciriaco gives you better speed on the bases and, right now, the Sox have NO baserunner sub.

Also, replacing Punto with Ciriaco would do wonders for the collective blood pressure of this board.

Ciriaco's "better" season so far is based on all of 14 games played, and Punto has only gotten into 13 big league games himself. I'm no Punto fan myself, but I'm going to believe the thousands of plate appearances versus the collective 97 PAs (more than half of which are minor league PAs) you're basing your judgement on.

Ciriaco is Cesar Crespo redux. No thank you.