83 replies to this topic

[geoduck no quahog]

So, how 'bout that Youkilis to the DL thing?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

But Rasputin would have beaten you to it, and this thread would have been turned into one about religion and moved to V&N.
Intimating (or, more correctly, deciding that Bobby V was intimating) often comes across as putting words into someone else's mouth. I notice you didn't type 'NOT AS PHYSICALLY OR EMOTIONALLY INTO THE GAME.' Is it inconceivable that one who is injured, and struggling because of the injury, has a different emotional reaction? Perhaps, not reacting as strongly to athletic failure, because of the belief that the main cause is a physical ailment, as opposed to bad preparation, or a mental error following proper preparation?

You've already declared Bobby V is to blame, no matter the issue.

All I've done is put up his exact words and judging from there. Given that I was accused of putting words into Valentine's mouth, I find this latest twist absolutely hilarious.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So, how 'bout that Youkilis to the DL thing?

Yeah. Might as well get back to this.

At this point it's fair to seriously wonder if he'll ever be able to play 3B fulltime again. While it's not shortstop, the wear and tear at 3B has to be more than the wear one would get at 1B, his previous position. As the year goes on, we might well wonder if moving him back to 3B had a very adverse affect on his career.

[Savin Hillbilly]

I've always wondered about that "wear & tear are more at 3B than 1B" thing. Is the additional wear and tear mostly on the arm? I realize that there are more RHH than LHH and thus more hot smashes to the 3B side, but the difference doesn't seem that huge. Is it just that expectations are lower, so if a 1B doesn't dive for a ball it's "well, he's just a 1B" but if a 3B doesn't dive for the ball it's "we need a real 3B"?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I've always wondered about that "wear & tear are more at 3B than 1B" thing. Is the additional wear and tear mostly on the arm? I realize that there are more RHH than LHH and thus more hot smashes to the 3B side, but the difference doesn't seem that huge. Is it just that expectations are lower, so if a 1B doesn't dive for a ball it's "well, he's just a 1B" but if a 3B doesn't dive for the ball it's "we need a real 3B"?

It's a good question. CW and Bill James have said over the years that 1B is the least physically demanding position on the field, but we don't know how much more demanding 3B would be. Certainly the throws are longer, but range isn't nearly the factor that it is at other positions. And it's very possible that Youkilis is getting hurt more often now not because of the position switch, but because he's got a bad body type and he's now in his 30s.

So we don't know. Might make for a good jumping off point for the discussion.

[mabrowndog]

It's a good question. CW and Bill James have said over the years that 1B is the least physically demanding position on the field, but we don't know how much more demanding 3B would be. Certainly the throws are longer, but range isn't nearly the factor that it is at other positions. And it's very possible that Youkilis is getting hurt more often now not because of the position switch, but because he's got a bad body type and he's now in his 30s.

So we don't know. Might make for a good jumping off point for the discussion.

Agreed on the range, but because third basemen are positioned closer to the plate, there are more demands on their reaction time. Whereas 2B and SS will dive more for grounders traveling lower and slower; in fact, some of them would be line drives if hit toward 3B. They just happen to have a little more time for gravity and friction to take effect. Their bodies are not only closer to the ground, but their hands and arms are often in better position to help break their fall.

My perception has always been that 3B will dive straight-out horizontally more often as they extend to snare these hard-hit line drives. When that happens they have farther to fall to the hard ground, meaning they're traveling faster at impact. And because they're generally built heavier than 2B & SS, I believe fielding that position does take a greater physical toll over the long haul. It's all about Isaac Newton (F = ma).

Combine that with the longer throws to first, as well as the harder throws to 2nd on DPs than shortstops make, and it's no contest. Third base is the most physically taxing position on the diamond outside the battery.

[geoduck no quahog]

What happens if there is no worthwhile trade for Youkilis (probable), but he remains severely limited in the field - a Mike Lowell type of situation:

If WMB is offered the starting job and performs to (low but reasonable) expectations, but Youkilis still remains valuable as an experienced and selective hitter - he becomes the backup 3rd baseman/1st baseman/DH?

That means you still carry Punto to backup the middle infield and DM for the outfield. Is that so terrible? How many AB's would Youkilis get in that scenario?

(BTW, who sticks if/when Ellsbury returns...I assume Byrd. Who goes if/when Crawford returns?)

[Savin Hillbilly]

Agreed on the range, but because third basemen are positioned closer to the plate, there are more demands on their reaction time. Whereas 2B and SS will dive more for grounders traveling lower and slower; in fact, some of them would be line drives if hit toward 3B. They just happen to have a little more time for gravity and friction to take effect. Their bodies are not only closer to the ground, but their hands and arms are often in better position to help break their fall.

My perception has always been that 3B will dive straight-out horizontally more often as they extend to snare these hard-hit line drives. When that happens they have farther to fall to the hard ground, meaning they're traveling faster at impact. And because they're generally built heavier than 2B & SS, I believe fielding that position does take a greater physical toll over the long haul. It's all about Isaac Newton (F = ma).

Combine that with the longer throws to first, as well as the harder throws to 2nd on DPs than shortstops make, and it's no contest. Third base is the most physically taxing position on the diamond outside the battery.

This is a great explanation of why 3B is more physically demanding than 2B and SS, but I'm not sure it explains why it's more demanding than 1B (throws aside, as I said before).

[glennhoffmania]

Agreed on the range, but because third basemen are positioned closer to the plate, there are more demands on their reaction time. Whereas 2B and SS will dive more for grounders traveling lower and slower; in fact, some of them would be line drives if hit toward 3B. They just happen to have a little more time for gravity and friction to take effect. Their bodies are not only closer to the ground, but their hands and arms are often in better position to help break their fall.

My perception has always been that 3B will dive straight-out horizontally more often as they extend to snare these hard-hit line drives. When that happens they have farther to fall to the hard ground, meaning they're traveling faster at impact. And because they're generally built heavier than 2B & SS, I believe fielding that position does take a greater physical toll over the long haul. It's all about Isaac Newton (F = ma).

Combine that with the longer throws to first, as well as the harder throws to 2nd on DPs than shortstops make, and it's no contest. Third base is the most physically taxing position on the diamond outside the battery.

I agree with this in general, but the middle infielders have to perform a lot more longer attempts at fielding a ball that involve quicker bursts and more steps. Plus, they're the ones getting taken out at second during double plays. Third is a tough position to play and can definitely wear someone down, but I don't think it's so cut and dry that it's a more taxing position than short or second.

[Doctor G]

I agree with this in general, but the middle infielders have to perform a lot more longer attempts at fielding a ball that involve quicker bursts and more steps. Plus, they're the ones getting taken out at second during double plays. Third is a tough position to play and can definitely wear someone down, but I don't think it's so cut and dry that it's a more taxing position than short or second.

Third base is demanding especially on lower core due to the plant and throw mechanics involved in fielding bunts and slow rollers as well as diving stops and jumping up and throwing. Not the best spot for someone with hip and lower back problems. There is a reason why ARod is DH'ing so much to start the year.

Youkilis would have a lot more value to a team like the Orioles, where he could be the primary DH and play first occasionally.

[glennhoffmania]

Third base is demanding especially on lower core due to the plant and throw mechanics involved in fielding bunts and slow rollers as well as diving stops and jumping up and throwing. Not the best spot for someone with hip and lower back problems. There is a reason why ARod is DH'ing so much to start the year.

Youkilis would have a lot more value to a team like the Orioles, where he could be the primary DH and play first occasionally.

I agree. I guess all I'm saying is that both are pretty demanding but in different ways, but for someone with Youkilis' issues 3B would definitely seem to be a challenging position.

[luckysox]

I wonder how well Youk will take it if WMB plays so well over the next 10 days that it becomes almost impossible to re-insert Youk. It certainly is not unprecedented, and given that much of the fan base is basically already writing this team off, having a hot-shot rookie allows the team and organization a chance to get folks excited again, right now, about this season. But how will affect the team in the clubhouse? How will Youk take it? Because he won't get a ton of at-bats - Gonzo does not sit, period, and nobody's sitting Ortiz right now. So Youk would be looking at being a once, maybe twice a week player to WMB's 4-5 times a week? And Punto (mercifully) may never get an at-bat again (I wouldn't sit Aviles or Pedey more than every once in a great while either). If this happens - and if it does, then things are probably better for the Sox now and long term because WMB is raking - I wonder just how long Youk will be able to be the good teammate and not be so pissed that he loses it to the media, igniting yet another $hit-storm of controversy around Bobby V and his clubhouse management abilities.

Now, who knows, Youk may well already understand that he's cooked. It's his body and he knows his pain. But if he thinks for a minute that he can still be the guy he was a few years ago, he's gonna be pissed off that he's not playing. It will KILL his contract value for next year if he sits in favor of WMB, and it's the last decent chance at a big(ish) contract he'll have. And this was a guy who was one of the key cogs in one of the best offenses over the past 5 years. I just can't imagine it will go down smoothly if it shakes out this way. I'm going to hate it if it happens. I respect the guy and have loved watching him play here, even if it is time for him to maybe, possibly, move on (by sitting on the bench).

[Pumpsie]

All I've done is put up his exact words and judging from there. Given that I was accused of putting words into Valentine's mouth, I find this latest twist absolutely hilarious.

You quoted that Valentine said that it appeared that "Youks was not as physically or emotionally into the game" as he'd seen previously and then argued that what Valentine had said was that "Youks had given up on the season." See, that's different.

[Dogman2]

You quoted that Valentine said that it appeared that "Youks was not as physically or emotionally into the game" as he'd seen previously and then argued that what Valentine had said was that "Youks had given up on the season." See, that's different.

Can you quote where SJH said that? I can't seem to find it.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Can you quote where SJH said that? I can't seem to find it.

I said this earlier in this thread:

"Lessee, Valentine insinuated, to the press, without talking to the player first, that said player had checked out emotionally on the season. Bit of a difference there."

Given up? Not exactly. I suppose I should have said "checked out emotionally on the season SO FAR."

Pumpise, not sure why anyone needs to explain themselves to you since you've already admitted that you're essentially trolling here by deliberately taking positions you don't believe in. Drop the voodoo please and stick to positions you actually believe. It makes it much easier to scream at each other if at least we know we're sincere.

We don't have a devil's advocate forum here just yet.

[Pumpsie]

Can you quote where SJH said that? I can't seem to find it.

Maybe SJH remembers. This topic been batted around in several threads including game threads. I'll take a look.

[trekfan55]

I wonder how well Youk will take it if WMB plays so well over the next 10 days that it becomes almost impossible to re-insert Youk. It certainly is not unprecedented, and given that much of the fan base is basically already writing this team off, having a hot-shot rookie allows the team and organization a chance to get folks excited again, right now, about this season. But how will affect the team in the clubhouse? How will Youk take it? Because he won't get a ton of at-bats - Gonzo does not sit, period, and nobody's sitting Ortiz right now. So Youk would be looking at being a once, maybe twice a week player to WMB's 4-5 times a week? And Punto (mercifully) may never get an at-bat again (I wouldn't sit Aviles or Pedey more than every once in a great while either). If this happens - and if it does, then things are probably better for the Sox now and long term because WMB is raking - I wonder just how long Youk will be able to be the good teammate and not be so pissed that he loses it to the media, igniting yet another $hit-storm of controversy around Bobby V and his clubhouse management abilities.

Now, who knows, Youk may well already understand that he's cooked. It's his body and he knows his pain. But if he thinks for a minute that he can still be the guy he was a few years ago, he's gonna be pissed off that he's not playing. It will KILL his contract value for next year if he sits in favor of WMB, and it's the last decent chance at a big(ish) contract he'll have. And this was a guy who was one of the key cogs in one of the best offenses over the past 5 years. I just can't imagine it will go down smoothly if it shakes out this way. I'm going to hate it if it happens. I respect the guy and have loved watching him play here, even if it is time for him to maybe, possibly, move on (by sitting on the bench).

First off we have to see how hurt Youk really is. Until he is deemed 100% he probably won't be reactivated from the DL. If and when he declares himself 100% pain free and is found healthy enough by the FO then they may have a tough decision in their hands. But it will depend on whether WMB is indeed hitting well and what position the team is at.

The biggest problem is that this is essentially a contract year for Youks and if he is healthy and the Sox bury him on the bench it will not be pretty. But the "if" right now is a very big one.

[Pumpsie]

SJH to the re

I said this:

"Lessee, Valentine insinuated, to the press, without talking to the player first, that said player had checked out emotionally on the season. Bit of a difference there."

Given up? Not exactly.

SJH to the rescue! "Checked out emotionally on the season" really changes the meaning of the original quote, though. It's one thing to say "hey, it looks like he's not as into it as he used to be" to "he's checked out emotionally on the season." The first implies he's making a comment about right now...and that things could change...in fact, Valentine followed this statement by saying that Youks had a good weekend because he started getting some walks and he looked better and that he'd get himself out of it. The second implies that the player had decided not to try this season.

This is the kind of stuff that is like the proverbial rocket fired at the moon one degree off at the start that ends up missing the target by thousands of miles. The changed quote becomes a meme that spreads all over the place and then we're all talking about something (in all sorts of threads) that didn't actually happen as if it did.

I think that there's plenty of anti-Valentine ammunition lying around without having to go this extra step to shoot something at him.

[Reverend]

It appears that a non-DL Youks poses roster problems. I think that 3B is significantly more demanding than playing first; even when you're not diving and popping up--which is effectively a highly intense burpee--you're still doing doing a stoop and pop and plant and throw. In addition, there are more plays where the third baseman is required to cover more ground than the first baseman, who has less coverage responsibility in the cases where he is more tightly tethered to the bag.

And Youk isn't playing first on this team, obviously--unless something very bad happens.

Maybe SJH remembers. This topic been batted around in several threads including game threads. I'll take a look.

Although I'm prepared to be corrected, I don't think you're going to find it. And if that is the case, I think it's important to understand why.

Spoiler

SJH deleted the post to win an internet argument.

I think there is a Backwash thread that has some relevancy to all this. I'll see if I can find it.

Edited by Reverend, 04 May 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

SJH to the re


SJH to the rescue! "Checked out emotionally on the season" really changes the meaning of the original quote, though. It's one thing to say "hey, it looks like he's not as into it as he used to be" to "he's checked out emotionally on the season." The first implies he's making a comment about right now...and that things could change...in fact, Valentine followed this statement by saying that Youks had a good weekend because he started getting some walks and he looked better and that he'd get himself out of it. The second implies that the player had decided not to try this season.

This is the kind of stuff that is like the proverbial rocket fired at the moon one degree off at the start that ends up missing the target by thousands of miles. The changed quote becomes a meme that spreads all over the place and then we're all talking about something (in all sorts of threads) that didn't actually happen as if it did.

I think that there's plenty of anti-Valentine ammunition lying around without having to go this extra step to shoot something at him.

I can't imagine what the issue is since I kindly provided the original exact quote from Valentine in order to have the discussion in the first place. And I then set off my comments about that statement outside of the quotes.

If Valentine or his defenders don't want these things to be talked about and interpreted, I'd advise the manager to keep his trap shut going forward. Offhandedly offering a take on a player's mental state, to the press, is always going to be problematic.

And Rev is a big jerkface. I did no such thing.

[twothousandone]

I wonder just how long Youk will be able to be the good teammate and not be so pissed that he loses it to the media, igniting yet another $hit-storm of controversy around Bobby V and his clubhouse management abilities.

. . . if he thinks for a minute that he can still be the guy he was a few years ago, he's gonna be pissed off that he's not playing.

If it goes the way you suggested, with Middlebrooks holding his own and Youkilis struggling AND causing trouble, Cherrington will have to give away or cut Kevin Youkilis. If he can do something like Ramirez for Bay, it would be fantastic, but your scenario says Youkilis is cooked. Trade him to the Cubs and pick up the remainder of his salary.

Edited by twothousandone, 04 May 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Doctor G]

With Mat Gamel out for the season, and Travis Ishikawa the likely replacement at 1B Milwaukee does have a need. Cleveland could also use Youk to platoon with Hafner at DH and with Kotchman at 1B.

[mabrowndog]

FYI, we already have a whole thread dedicated to Youk's trade value, team-by-team assessments of possible landing spots, and the wisdom of entertaining such deals and handing the keys to WMB.

This thread is probably best confined to discussion of Youk's injuries and recovery.

[Pumpsie]

I've called EV the Mount Everest of bullshit. You might well be Kilimanjaro.

Kilimanjaro is a fine mountain to be associated with. I thank you for that. And let us remember that Eric and I are but two mountains here in the vast SOSH bullshit mountain complex and most of the mountains, admittedly, are not as pretty, or as connected with literature and art, as Kilimanjaro nor as famous and iconic as Everest.

[Pumpsie]

I can't imagine what the issue is since I kindly provided the original exact quote from Valentine in order to have the discussion in the first place. And I then set off my comments about that statement outside of the quotes.

Noted. I think that your comments about said quote kind of got swallowed up by the quotation marks somewhere along the line and references to Valentine having actually said that Youks had given up on the season began appearing in game threads and elsewhere.

If Valentine or his defenders don't want these things to be talked about and interpreted, I'd advise the manager to keep his trap shut going forward. Offhandedly offering a take on a player's mental state, to the press, is always going to be problematic.

I don't think ANYONE disagrees with this statement...including Valentine.

And Rev is a big jerkface. I did no such thing.

You probably did not do any such thing. But, that doesn't make Rev a "big jerkface." Although, it might make him a small foothill in a mountain range somewhere for some.

[sachilles]

When Youk moved to 1b, part of what made him a standout was his athleticism at the position. Convention lets teams put less mobile players there, as there primary purpose is to cover the bag on infield plays. In general, 2b covers more territory on that side of the field than a SS would on the opposite side of the field. The shift highlights the perceived weakness of the 1b players. Holding runners on at first ties the player to 1st to a certain extent, forgiving them of some of the responsibility to field the ball on that side of the plate. Over the course of the season that has to add up a little bit in terms of saved wear and tear. That being said, The way Youk played 1b, seemed more aggressive to me, and therefore a little more abusive.

He had these issues at 1b as well. I believe it has more to do with his body type and his approach to the game than it does with the position he is playing. I'm not convinced a move to first will save him a whole lot of wear and tear.

[Sprowl]

I agree. I guess all I'm saying is that both are pretty demanding but in different ways, but for someone with Youkilis' issues 3B would definitely seem to be a challenging position.

Coming in on bunts is another situation where a third baseman has more frequent and more taxing plays than a first baseman. Youkilis has a relatively low-stress sidearm throw across the diamond, so I don't think that is his problem, but when he really has to uncork a hard throw to beat the runner to first, he sometimes comes directly overhand. He does it quite well -- better than one would think, based on his usual throwing style -- but I think that does put an additional stress on his frame.

It's clear that Youk is no longer in peak condition physically, and if it is related to a degenerative hip-and-back condition, then it won't go away, although it might be manageable if Youkilis were not in the field on a daily basis. Bobby V stuck his foot in his mouth and chewed on his toenails by adding the word EMOTIONALLY to his diagnosis.

[cornwalls@6]

In retrospect, I wonder if the kind of plays/throws you're describing were a major factor that lead to Lowell's rotting hips, and ultimately chased him out of the game. If I recall correctly, it was a base-running play to first where he had his intial breakdown, but could that of been the final straw after a career of those charging, high-torque throws?? Ominously, it was Youk's baserunning in the second half of last season where his hip seemed to become an issue. I really hope he's not in the rapid descent phase that Lowell was at the end, but it sure doesn't look good.

[mabrowndog]

The Sox will have a short bench tonight -- Sweeney, Salty & Punto -- so this was interesting...

Alex Speier @alexspeier
Saltalamacchia spent some time at 1B taking grounders during BP. With youkilis out, makes sense to find another insurance option there

[Myt1]

This is a great explanation of why 3B is more physically demanding than 2B and SS, but I'm not sure it explains why it's more demanding than 1B (throws aside, as I said before).

More batters are righties, so more pulled balls struck with power are hit to third (so, more fast twitch plays, dives, balls striking the chest or cheekbone with bad hops. Compounding these issues, because the firstbaseman has the shortest play to first with no one on, he can play deeper as a result.

[mabrowndog]

Maureen Mullen @MaureenaMullen

Youkilis progressing but not doing baseball activities yet. Core, cardio work. Eligible to come off DL Mon.

[Harry Hooper]

The Sox will have a short bench tonight -- Sweeney, Salty & Punto -- so this was interesting...

So Ross not only can't start, but he can't go at all tonight? What's bothering him?



Edit: Thanks, dog, I suck.

Edited by Harry Hooper, 10 May 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[mabrowndog]

So Ross not only can't start, but he can't go at all tonight? What's bothering him?

The "short bench" post you're responding to was from a week ago. Ross started that night.

I do suspect there's now an issue with Ross, which I mentioned in the Nava/Mortensen thread.

Edited by mabrowndog, 10 May 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[mabrowndog]

Maureen Mullen

@MaureenaMullen
Youkilis expected to throw, swing, take grounders today.