358 replies to this topic

[mabrowndog]

It just keeps getting more and more awesome around here.

Buried in this tweet from Trags at WEEI:

Mike Petraglia @Trags
Reply Retweet Favorite ·More
So here's lowdown. Middlebrooks up, starts at 3B, Mortensen in pen. Youk, Beckett likely headed to DL. Cook likely to start Sat. #RedSox

Please, let's have MANY MANY MORE 120+ PITCH OUTINGS FROM OUR BULLDOG HOSS STARTING PITCHERS!!

Edited by mabrowndog, 03 May 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[Foulkey Reese]

126 pitches in April isn't looking so smart now.

[RingoOSU]

Counting Youkilis and Beckett, the sox now have 93 mil in payroll on the DL.

[mabrowndog]

Trags still the only reporter who's mentioned Beckett and DL in the same sentence today. Now he appears to be softening his stance:

Mike Petraglia @Trags
9m
Word is Beckett is dealing with lat soreness but NO move has been made. Only a possibility. Threw 124 pitches last start.

[trekfan55]

126 pitches in April isn't looking so smart now.

The difference between him facing Lillibridge or not was 12 pitches. I do not really blame BobbyV for that one.

But let's wait until we know more, I think. The Sox look like they are making 100 moves in one day and no one can sort through the mess yet.

[Hendu's Gait]

no one can sort through the mess

That's kind of the problem.

[trekfan55]

That's kind of the problem.

Well...
Yesterday they sent Lars Anderson down
Yesterday they called up Iglesias (sent Tazawa down)
Today they are calling up Middlebrooks.
Today they are also calling up Mortnesen.
Cook is being called up to pitch Saturday

Youks is hurt, Beckett is hurt.

That's a lot of moves in one day. Someone is apt to speculate on 1 or 2 DLs in the age of twitter.

Now we know Youks is on the DL at least.

So it's Middlebrooks to the spot vacated by Anderson
Mortensen replaces Youk (it can easily be the other way around)
Iglesias stays.

On Saturday (or maybe Friday depending on the requirements of Cook's opt out clause) Cook replaces either Mortensen (can he be sent down?) or maybe Iglesias and a corresponding 40 man move is made.

[JakeRae]

Mortensen has options and is on the 40-man. He's just a placeholder for Cook who is available to pitch until Cook gets called up. Depending on whether Cook exercised his opt out or just received a promise of a call up, Mortensen might just be in Boston for tonight. (If Cook used his opt out, he needs to be added to the MLB roster tomorrow which means that Mortensen is gone, if he didn't, Mortensen will stay through Friday's game and be sent down to clear space for Cook after.)

The move to get Cook on the 40-man is shifting Crawford to the 60-day DL. That's an easy call. They could, alternatively, activate and DFA Miller in between optioning Mortensen and calling up Cook. I assume they'll put off cutting bait with Miller for the rest of the week just in case, so Crawford makes more sense for right now.

Iglesias future is dependent on whether they'd rather have him on the roster or Lars over the next week. The opportunity to get Lars back in Boston is the Youkilis DL move that just happened. We'll know the answer to this soon as the only way to make Middlebrooks and Lars both coming to Boston work is for Iglesias to be the corresponding roster move to Middlebrooks and Lars getting recalled correspond to Youkilis being placed on the DL. I'd prefer they send Iglesias back down to get at bats and bring Lars back up as a bench bat and platoon outfielder.

We've got another hour and a half to see how the dust settles on all this. Based on the early reports, I'm not expecting a Beckett DL trip right away. If he hits the DL, I'd expect Tazawa getting recalled to be the corresponding move although giving Miller one final shot is another option.

[The Gray Eagle]

So does anyone know yet when Beckett will be making his next start? Sounds like he's not going on the DL after all, and is not pitching Saturday. But I haven't been able to find anything on when he actually will be pitching. Sunday? Thursday? Memorial Day?

[smastroyin]

I swear I heard a quote from Bobby V about an "extra day" for Beckett, but I can't really find it now.

Of course, even if he said that, the decision could change by Sunday.

[DanoooME]

I swear I heard a quote from Bobby V about an "extra day" for Beckett, but I can't really find it now.

Of course, even if he said that, the decision could change by Sunday.

Well there's some interesting info in this article. Like:

Valetine also announced that Josh Beckett will miss his next scheduled start, Saturday against Baltimore, because of stiffness in his right lat muscle and that PawSox pitcher Aaron Cook will take the mound instead. Cook, whose contract called for him to have the chance to leave the organization as a free agent if Boston didn't promote him from Pawtucket by May 1, has remained with the team and will be added to the major league roster on Saturday, according to Valentine. A corresponding move will have to be made to make room for him on the roster.
Valentine said Beckett will be able to start again when his turn in the rotation comes up the next time through.

And this gem:

He also mentioned another possibility for Boston's rotation.
"I'm not opposed to a having more than five starters during long stretches depending on how the pitchers are pitching," he said. "There's no need to project anything further (regarding Cook's status) than Saturday."

Really, the six man rotation idea again?

Edit: Meaning we here have discussed the six man idea to death many times before.

Edited by DanoooME, 03 May 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

(If Cook used his opt out, he needs to be added to the MLB roster tomorrow which means that Mortensen is gone, if he didn't, Mortensen will stay through Friday's game and be sent down to clear space for Cook after.)

I can't imagine it would be a huge problem if the Sox said to Cook, "You're going to start Saturday but we'd like to amend the contract to give us another 24 hours to put you on the 25-man roster because we need an extra reliever."

[someoneanywhere]

The difference between him facing Lillibridge or not was 12 pitches. I do not really blame BobbyV for that one.

But let's wait until we know more, I think. The Sox look like they are making 100 moves in one day and no one can sort through the mess yet.

No one here can sort through this mess. Let's distinguish between the mess, which is certainly worthy of questioning, and the sorting, which has all sorts of people on this board -- none of whom has a job in baseball -- perplexed. My guess is that while it may be zany up in the FO right now, the control of the roster (that is, who can go where, when, and for how long) is pretty solid.

[EddieYost]

Really, the six man rotation idea again?

Edit: Meaning we here have discussed the six man idea to death many times before.

Billy Martin loved the idea! Of course his stud pitchers were throwing complete games.

http://news.google.c...pg=5904,4959775

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Billy Martin loved the idea! Of course his stud pitchers were throwing complete games.

http://news.google.c...pg=5904,4959775

Underwood made only 5 starts in 1981, so the idea didn't last very long with Martin.

Also, every one of his 5 starts from that year got seriously injured within the next couple of seasons, so maybe all those CGs weren't a great idea either.

[EddieYost]

Underwood made only 5 starts in 1981, so the idea didn't last very long with Martin.

Also, every one of his 5 starts from that year got seriously injured within the next couple of seasons, so maybe all those CGs weren't a great idea either.

Agreed. I forgot the sarcasm emoticon. My point was that the idea has been around for at least 30 years and it's never really panned out. It's one thing to stick an extra guy in there once in a while to give everyone an extra day. Going with a 6 man rotation when it is hard enough to find 5 good starters is, IMO, a bad idea.

[JakeRae]

I can't imagine it would be a huge problem if the Sox said to Cook, "You're going to start Saturday but we'd like to amend the contract to give us another 24 hours to put you on the 25-man roster because we need an extra reliever."

If he had already exercised his opt-out, that would likely require the MLBPA to sign off and I doubt they would. It almost certainly wouldn't happen in time. On May 1st, Beckett wasn't scheduled to miss his next start so Cook having exercised the opt-out is likely. With Mortensen having thrown 3 innings yesterday, there's a pretty good chance he'll be unavailable on Friday anyway so the difference in timing is likely inconsequential at this point.

[trekfan55]

No one here can sort through this mess. Let's distinguish between the mess, which is certainly worthy of questioning, and the sorting, which has all sorts of people on this board -- none of whom has a job in baseball -- perplexed. My guess is that while it may be zany up in the FO right now, the control of the roster (that is, who can go where, when, and for how long) is pretty solid.

My point was exactly that. No one here and no one in the press. With all the comings and goings everyone was speculating something and that included a trip by Beckett to the DL. I never meant that the people in the FO did not know what was happening. Although sending Tazawa and Lars down seemed like rather hasty moves IMO.

If he had already exercised his opt-out, that would likely require the MLBPA to sign off and I doubt they would. It almost certainly wouldn't happen in time. On May 1st, Beckett wasn't scheduled to miss his next start so Cook having exercised the opt-out is likely. With Mortensen having thrown 3 innings yesterday, there's a pretty good chance he'll be unavailable on Friday anyway so the difference in timing is likely inconsequential at this point.

We do not really know if he indeed opted out on May 1st. He has expressed a willingness to stay with the Sox before so maybe they had a good dialogue.

Of course as I type that Maureen Mullen tweets this:

#RedSox send Iglesias back. Clears 25-man for RHP Cook. Still need spot on 40-man. Crawford to 60-day DL?? http://tinyurl.com/85wcwtg #redsoxtalk

So that means Mortensen stays I guess, or maybe one more move to come?

[someoneanywhere]

My point was exactly that. No one here and no one in the press. With all the comings and goings everyone was speculating something and that included a trip by Beckett to the DL. I never meant that the people in the FO did not know what was happening. Although sending Tazawa and Lars down seemed like rather hasty moves IMO.

I picked up on that. I was only trying to reinforce the point with what I thought was the significant distinction.

Edited by someoneanywhere, 03 May 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Manramsclan]

I don't like the idea of a six man rotation either, but a stretch with 20 games in 20 days is certainly a great time to have an extra starter and bullpen arm around.

http://boston.redsox...alendar=DEFAULT

[lexrageorge]

All Valentine said is that he'd like an extra starter given the upcoming stretch of 20 games in 20 days. There is a big difference between having an extra starter around and going with a 6-man rotation. A 6th starter allows him to skip the occasional start (like Beckett's), or give a pitcher an extra day of rest, or have a starter come in early if need be. As the above poster mentions, it's certainly prudent.

[xjack]

Maybe the Sox should start thinking about next year and let Beckett have surgery. He's had a rotator cuff tear since they acquired him, and I doubt it's gotten bettter in the six years since.

[trekfan55]

PeteAbe

Josh Beckett said his shoulder is feeling better and he believes he will make his next start after beung skipped tomorrow. #RedSox

[lexrageorge]

Maybe the Sox should start thinking about next year and let Beckett have surgery. He's had a rotator cuff tear since they acquired him, and I doubt it's gotten bettter in the six years since.

There's a huge difference between a sore lat and a rotator cuff tear. The former does not indicate potentially career-risking surgery.

[Al Zarilla]

There's a huge difference between a sore lat and a rotator cuff tear. The former does not indicate potentially career-risking surgery.

In fact, Lester had a lat issue last year. Don't recall if he missed a start or not.

[trekfan55]

Cafardo

Josh Beckett said his lat feels better and should make next start. Revealed he felt it before last start and never told anyone.

And...

Valentine on Beckett having lat discomfort pre-126 pitch outing: 'In retrospect, it would have been nice to know that.'

Speier

[Al Zarilla]

Cafardo



And...



Speier

Valentine on Beckett having lat discomfort pre-126 pitch outing: 'In retrospect, it would have been nice to know that.'

Oh shit, here we go again. Couldn't BV have just thought that instead of going public with it?

[Sprowl]

In fact, Lester had a lat issue last year. Don't recall if he missed a start or not.

Lester was pulled on July 5 in Toronto (4 ip, 0 h, 1 bb, 5 k). He pitched again on July 25, so it looks like he missed two starts.

[trekfan55]

Valentine on Beckett having lat discomfort pre-126 pitch outing: 'In retrospect, it would have been nice to know that.'

Oh shit, here we go again. Couldn't BV have just thought that instead of going public with it?

You have a point. But Valentine is getting some heat fro leaving him in for 126 pitches.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Lester was pulled on July 5 in Toronto (4 ip, 0 h, 1 bb, 5 k). He pitched again on July 25, so it looks like he missed two starts.

And he was on the DL in the interim.

[Al Zarilla]

You have a point. But Valentine is getting some heat fro leaving him in for 126 pitches.

True. Maybe Bobby is at the point now where people are going to analyze most everything he says, but that statement seems like a shot at Beckett for being irresponsible for not speaking up about a problem.

[Sprowl]

True. Maybe Bobby is at the point now where people are going to analyze most everything he says, but that statement seems like a shot at Beckett for being irresponsible for not speaking up about a problem.

... or to shift responsibility away from Bobby the Fifth for having let Beckett throw 126 pitches.

I don't think there's that much blame to go around, since the last at-bat was unexpectedly tough and Beckett still seemed to be throwing well, but I'm thinking that Bobby should spend more of his time asking his players questions instead of giving the press answers.

[mabrowndog]

Oh shit, here we go again. Couldn't BV have just thought that instead of going public with it?

BV was responding to questions from the press, because Beckett's the one who had earlier acknowledged to reporters that he felt pain and discomfort before his last start and trying to pitch through it.

Scott Lauber ‏ @ScottLauber
Beckett said lat was sore before last Sunday when he threw 126 pitches in Chicago. He played catch from 90 ft today and felt better

Brian MacPherson ‏ @brianmacp
Beckett said he felt stiffness before his last start but wasn't "smart about it." He felt better today, expects to make next start.

So yeah, Beckett's a complete fucking idiot. Should Bobby had shut up rather than throw Beckett under the bus a little there? Perhaps. But this is NOTHING like the Youk comments, which came out of nowhere. The Beckett shit is already out there, and if affected an in-game decision. So frankly, I don't give a fuck if Bobby spouts off about it.

Edited by mabrowndog, 04 May 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[xjack]

There's a huge difference between a sore lat and a rotator cuff tear. The former does not indicate potentially career-risking surgery.

Obviously I don't believe Beckett's sore lat story any more than I believed Dice-K's sore back story. Beckett has a rotator cuff issue and labrum tear that have not been surgically repaired. He's been pitching this way since we acquired him. The Mnookin book referenced the issue, as did Chad Finn:

"[Beckett] had a serious scare with two tours on the disabled list with shoulder tendinitis in 2000. Offseason tests diagnosed two tears in his labrum, fraying in his rotator cuff, biceps tendinitis, and an impingement. Dr. James Andrews advised against surgery. Beckett worked hard to rehabilitate his shoulder in the winter, and came out firing." I think we now know why the Sox were terrified of his MRI before trading for him.

http://www.boston.co...rospecting.html

[Sprowl]

Obviously I don't believe Beckett's sore lat story any more than I believed Dice-K's sore back story. Beckett has a rotator cuff issue and labrum tear that have not been surgically repaired. He's been pitching this way since we acquired him. The Mnookin book referenced the issue, as did Chad Finn:

[/i]
http://www.boston.co...rospecting.html

So why is a 2000 diagnosis relevant to 2012 Beckett, after his 2003 shutdown of the Yankees, his 2007 ace playoff performance against Angels, Indians and Rockies, multiple years of odd-year Beckett, multiple years of even-year Beckett, and thousands of innings? What makes you think that the tears identified in a 2000 diagnosis should be repaired in 2012, in spite of all that went before? Why is NOW the moment to cut into the joint, and what would that magic surgery fix that hasn't been dealt with, overcome or otherwise worked around over the last 12 years?

Because I'm really curious to know.

[xjack]

Here is his average fastball speed according to Fangraphs:

2009: 94
2010: 93.6
2011: 93
2012: 91.5
His k/9 has gone from 8.4 to 6.7 over the same period.

The point is that I don't believe the Sox are honest about pitcher injuries. In Beckett's case, we know he's been pitching with a compromised shoulder for years, and labrums and rotator cuffs don't usually heal themselves.

[Sprowl]

Here is his average fastball speed according to Fangraphs:

2009: 94
2010: 93.6
2011: 93
2012: 91.5
His k/9 has gone from 8.4 to 6.7 over the same period.

The point is that I don't believe the Sox are honest about pitcher injuries. In Beckett's case, we know he's been pitching with a compromised shoulder for years, and labrums and rotator cuffs don't usually heal themselves.

What makes you think that labrums and rotator cuffs are healed by surgery? You've mooted this preposterous notion before, so back it up, or own up that it's all your own wishcasting. What will surgery do for Beckett, and why is now the time? What telltale signs do you see in his MRI, and how can shoulder surgery fix them? If you don't come up with a plausible argument, I'm going to ban your ass, so make it good.

[NickEsasky]

I would recommend some light reading on labrum tears before wishing Beckett to have surgery.

http://www.slate.com...killed_him.html

http://www.baseballa...31shoulder.html
http://www.seattlepi...ame-1285680.php

The list of pitchers who have come back to achieve similar results after surgery to repair a labrum is a small one.

[RedOctober3829]

Hardy on 98.5 says one of his sources spotted Beckett on the golf course last Thursday. Is this the same Beckett that couldn't make his start on Saturday because of injury?

In my mind, that's a big F-U to his teammates and the organization. If you are not healthy enough to pitch, why are you out playing golf? This is indefensible IMO.

Edited by RedOctober3829, 09 May 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[RedOctober3829]

Scott Zolak

Beckett story 100 % IRONCLAD.....local private golf club last thursday with Buchholz, 2 days before his scratched start #leadership

https://twitter.com/...270648629673984

Edited by RedOctober3829, 09 May 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[E5 Yaz]

Hardy on 98.5 says one of his sources spotted Beckett on the golf course last Thursday. Is this the same Beckett that couldn't make his start on Saturday because of injury?

In my mind, that's a big F-U to his teammates and the organization. If you are not healthy enough to pitch, why are you out playing golf? This is indefensible IMO.

Unless the lat was just a cover story because they needed to get Cook a start before his opt out. A single piece of information isn't always the entire story.

Now, why they would concoct such a story instead of just saying they were giving Beckett a rest one time through the rotation, I don't know.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Last Thursday? The 3rd? The off day? He was golfing? OMG!!!

Maybe golfing doesn't affect the injured area? I don't know, I'm not a pitcher nor am I a doctor.

[Adrian's Dome]

Another thing that could be an issue if he's not really hurt is the 17-inning game. He was 6 days removed from throwing, why couldn't he step in for an inning or two? Shouldn't be any different than a side session at that point.

[RedOctober3829]

Last Thursday? The 3rd? The off day? He was golfing? OMG!!!

Maybe golfing doesn't affect the injured area? I don't know, I'm not a pitcher nor am I a doctor.

Have you ever played golf? They said he had a strained lat muscle. You use your lat muscles all the time swinging a golf club. Even if he felt better, you don't risk re-injuring yourself doing something off the baseball field that you don't need to be doing.

[mt8thsw9th]

Last Thursday? The 3rd? The off day? He was golfing? OMG!!!

Maybe golfing doesn't affect the injured area? I don't know, I'm not a pitcher nor am I a doctor.

Being an apologist is a full time job, though.

[Rudy Pemberton]

At least Buchholz was with him, I'm sure they were going over gameplan for his start vs. the O's.

[fineyoungarm]

Last Thursday? The 3rd? The off day? He was golfing? OMG!!!

Maybe golfing doesn't affect the injured area? I don't know, I'm not a pitcher nor am I a doctor.

Suspected snitch last seen in sand trap on 8th hole.

[Rocco Graziosa]

This Becket can't get out of his own way. He's out GOLFING last Thursday? I guess this guy doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks of him.

2007 seems like 50 years ago.

[Gambler7]

Gary Tanguay on with Felger now says Beckett during the last home stand refused to do the work he was supposed to with the rest of the pitchers, said he didn't feel like it, refused to listen to the strength coach. Went into the clubhouse instead.

[SoxScout]

Valentine on EEI: "Aware of the story... haven't talked to Josh yet... trying to sort out my feelings on it... when we told him not to make the start it was precautionary. If he was playing I think that was less than the best thing to do."

Edited by SoxScout, 09 May 2012 - 01:40 PM.