287 replies to this topic

[jsinger121]

The Pats drafted a safety no one ever heard of. Discuss here.

[URI]

My favorite part of the draft every year is when Belichick trolls everyone.

[JimBoSox9]

Captain, character guy, special teamer. Great dark horse value pick in the fifth round.

Wait, WHAT round???

[The Best Catch in 100 Years]

I keep seeing Sebastian Vollmer and Logan Mankins brought up as similarly "out of nowhere" picks. This seems a little more extreme though--Vollmer and Mankins were generally projected to be drafted the years they were picked, right?

[Hendu's Gait]

They drafted him to replace Law Firm's dreads.

[SoxScout]

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. —Illinois sophomore cornerback Tavon Wilson could have gone in another direction when both of his parents died before he entered the sixth grade in inner-city Washington, D.C.

His father was murdered when Wilson was 1. His mother drowned during a pool party when Wilson was 12.

http://www.galesburg...rom-grandmother

Edited by SoxScout, 27 April 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[triniSox]

At least we're drafting in areas of need...

Edit: But on a serious note, BB must feel like he can coach him up. By the end of the year, he had Sterling Moore and Kyle Arrington playing well.

Edited by triniSox, 27 April 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[URI]

Players who have dreadlocks whose parents died tragically?

[soxfan121]

NFP - Wes Bunting:

A thickly put together safety prospect with a compact frame and natural girth through the mid section. However, looks heavy-footed when trying to re-direct and isn't real sudden/explosive in space. Tries to sit into his drop off the line and does a decent job keeping his base down and feet under him. However, gets upright when asked to turn and run, is stiff in the hips and lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder. Struggles in tight areas as well, doesn't feel routes develop around him quickly and lacks the fluidity to open up his hips laterally and close. Gets very grabby and is uncomfortable in space and doesn't possess the short area quickness/range to hold up in man. Possesses questionable instincts as well, rarely getting early jumps on the football and struggles to recognize his run/pass keys at times.

Displays a slight burst attacking downhill and running the alley. Locates the football quickly and has the tenacity needed to work his way toward the ball carrier. However, lacks that second gear to routinely make the play. Sees his fair share of angles outpaced toward daylight and isn't the most effective when asked to breakdown one-on-one. Lowers his shoulder into contact and generates some pop into contact when in a phone booth. However, is inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Impression: A thick framed kid with some natural power, but his lacking closing gear shows up in both the run and pass game.

[SoxinSeattle]

[Domer]

Any relation to Eugene Wilson?

[Preacher]

Any relation to Eugene Wilson?

Sure, both went to Illinois?

[reggiecleveland]

Rotoworld's take

An honorable mention All-Big Ten member with 81 tackles last season, Wilson is a virtual unknown outside of NFL circles. However, plenty of teams showed interest in the pre-draft process in terms of visits and workouts. At 6'0/205 pounds and 4.52 forty speed, Wilson has prototypical size and speed for the position. Possibly benefiting from Whitney Mercilus' 16 sacks in front of him, Wilson is an interesting selection in the second-round.

[pappymojo]

http://www.fightingi...on_tavon00.html

2011 - Senior: Honorable mention All-Big Ten selection by the coaches ... Team captain ... Named team's outstanding defensive back at the annual postseason banquet ... Started all 13 games ... Finished third on the team with 81 tackles ... Notched seven tackles and one TFL in win over UCLA in Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl ... Recorded seven tackles and one PBU against Minnesota ... Posted seven tackles and one TFL against Wisconsin ... Led the Illini with 11 tackles, one fumble recovery and one interception against Michigan ... Recorded six tackles, one forced fumble and one PBU against Ohio State ... Led the team with 11 total tackles, a career-best 3.5 TFLs, one sack and returned a fumble 66 yards for a touchdown in victory over Indiana ... Posted six tackles and 0.5 TFL against Northwestern ... Recorded seven tackles, one PBU and one QB hurry against Western Michigan ... Tied team-high with eight tackles and had a half-TFL and a PBU in win over Arizona State ... Tied for team lead with five tackles and had one PBU in win over South Dakota State.
2010 - Junior: All-Big Ten honorable mention (coaches and media) ... Named team's Outstanding Defensive Back at annual postseason banquet ... Illinois' honoree for Big Ten Sportsmanship Award ... Started all 13 games at safety ... Had 48 tackles on the season along with 2.0 TFL, a team-high eight PBUs, one interception and two fumble recoveries ... Secured seven tackles and one PBU in Texas Bowl win over Baylor ... Recorded five tackles, 1.5 TFLs and one PBU against Minnesota ... Recorded first interception of 2010 and two tackles in win over Indiana ... Posted four tackles and one PBU in win at Penn State ... Tallied seven tackles against Ohio State ... Had two tackles, a PBU and a fumble recovery against Northern Illinois ... Had a career-best three PBUs and recorded five tackles in win over Southern Illinois ... Tallied first career fumble recovery, along with four tackles in season-opener against Missouri ... Moved to safety before 2010 season after playing his first two seasons at cornerback ... Preseason fourth-team All-Big Ten by Phil Steele's College Football Preview.
2009 - Sophomore: Started all 12 games, finishing third on the team with 74 tackles and leading the team with seven passes broken up ... Recorded seven solo tackles, including one for loss, in the season finale against Fresno State ... Posted five tackles, including one for loss, and a pass break up against No. 5 Cincinnati ... Was second on the team with 11 tackles, including a career-best 10 solo stops, against Northwestern ... Had five tackles and two passes broken up in win over Michigan ... Posted one tackle at Purdue ... Named Midseason Third-Team All-Big Ten by Phil Steele Magazine ... Posted seven tackles at Indiana ... Led the team with a career-best 13 tackles, including a tackle for loss and an interception that set up Illinois' first touchdown vs. Michigan State ... Posted five tackles and one pass broken up against Ohio State ... Recorded six tackles, including a career-best five solo stops and two passes broken up against Illinois State ... Logged seven tackles and a career-best 1.5 tackles for loss against Missouri.
2008 - Freshman: Played in 11 games as a true-freshman on both special teams and defense, recording 11 tackles and one PBU on the season ... Was in on 160 defensive snaps ... Posted two tackles and broke up a pass in the season finale at Northwestern ... Had a career-high five tackles against Western Michigan, including four solos ... Recorded his first career tackles against Eastern Illinois, including a TFL for a loss of one yard.

[pappymojo]

http://www.fightingi...d=1565255974001

Not sure how to embed this video.

[Mystic Merlin]

'Possibly benefiting'

Yes, just like Mark Barron 'possibly benefited' from Hightower and Upshaw wreaking havoc up front. Rotoworld is the best.

[SoxScout]

Q: Heading into the draft, when did you expect to get taken?

TW: I didn't really know. I was hearing a lot of different things as far as what round and all that stuff. I just tried to focus, keep my head down and just keep on working. I never knew where I was going to be taken, but I just knew it was all over the place. It was out of my hands. I just did everything I can to get drafted as high as possible.

Q: What round were people telling you?

TW: It was kind of all over the place. A lot of people had a lot of different predictions. I didn't really pay [any] attention to it. I just worked as hard as I could and great things happened for me.

Q: How much pre-draft contact did you have with the Patriots?

TW: I worked out with them before. I pretty much talked to a lot of teams and heard a lot of good things. I worked out for them one time.

Q: Is it accurate that you played more cornerback last year than safety and if so, was that something that was planned or due to injury?

TW: My junior year I started at safety. I came in as a corner, but my junior someone was hurt, so I had to move to safety. Last year, my coaches asked me what position I wanted to play for my senior season and I told them I wanted to play corner. I kind of played everywhere. I played some safety some games, some corner, some nickel.

http://www.patriots....af-7bdd6eb3a508

[LTF]

Players who have dreadlocks whose parents died tragically?

This was a category on "Jeopardy" last week.

[Alternate34]

Look, its obvious what Belichick was doing. Tavon had all the powers and abilities to be a second rounder except for being considered ranked on any draft boards as a second round draft pick. However, that was the only way he could be a second round draft pick value was by being taken in the second rounder. Belichick knew this so he Tavon Wilson a second round draft by making Tavon Wilson a second round draft pick.

Edited by Alternate34, 27 April 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Garshaparra]

Look, its obvious what Belichick was doing. Tavon had all the powers and abilities to be a second rounder except for being considered ranked on any draft boards as a second round draft pick. However, that was the only way he could be a second round draft pick value was by being taken in the second rounder. Belichick knew this so he Tavon Wilson a second round draft by making Tavon Wilson a second round draft pick.

whoa

[LaszloKovacks]

Look, its obvious what Belichick was doing. Tavon had all the powers and abilities to be a second rounder except for being considered ranked on any draft boards as a second round draft pick. However, that was the only way he could be a second round draft pick value was by being taken in the second rounder. Belichick knew this so he Tavon Wilson a second round draft by making Tavon Wilson a second round draft pick.

I see your point.

[bradmahn]

The last orphaned Patriot the team drafted was Wilfork. Let's hope Tavon works out as well as Big Hungry.

Edited by bradmahn, 27 April 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Salva135]

I read that this guy was projected into the 6th or 7th round. I'm sorry, but that's a flat out institutional failure. What Belichick sees in him is meaningless if that's what the true reach was. I am totally shocked the Patriots screwed up this badly. This is where the "Belichick thinks he's smarter than everyone else, but sucks at drafting" rep comes from.

Edited by Salva135, 27 April 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Oil Can Dan]

I remember when a lot of people had a similar WTF moment when the Giants took Osi Umenyiora out of Troy in the 2nd round back in '02. The thing is, we (meaning Joe Burger Kings like most of us here) just never know.

[SeoulSoxFan]

I read that this guy was projected into the 6th or 7th round. I'm sorry, but that's a flat out institutional failure. What Belichick sees in him is meaningless if that's what the true reach was. I am totally shocked the Patriots screwed up this badly. This is where the "Belichick thinks he's smarter than everyone else, but sucks at drafting" rep comes from.

Yup. We've got Wilson already lost unplayed games and misplayed yet-to-be-drawn assignments, all within less than 12 hours of the pick.

Wilson sucks and so does Belichick. Can we trade for Tanny?

[Ed Hillel]

What Belichick sees in him is meaningless if that's what the true reach was.

Exactly.

[Soxy Brown]

I know less than nothing about college football players, so my voice here could be meaningless. But I think it's silly to bitch and moan about how the guy was supposed to be undrafted. Clearly, there is a reason why the Pats drafted him. Figuring out that reason is much more interesting than "ZOMG wat R they doing!!!?!!!"

The Pats seemingly don't think much of this draft class. Or, at the very least, they don't think it's very deep. If they did, they probably would have accumulated more picks. They probably wouldn't be discarding 3rd and 4th rounders to target specific guys in the 1st round. They probably wouldn't have taken a lesser deal from GB to trade down. Frankly, it doesn't appear that they see a lot of players who can add value to their team here. So, that's a pretty salient point, I think. Obvious, maybe, but it seems like some aren't considering that as strongly as they should. Being an 'X' round pick means different things from year to year, because the talent level varies from year to year. It's what mabrowndog was referring to in the game thread. The 48th pick, or whatever pick, does not have the same value every year. Expectations need to be scaled to the talent level of the class. And this appears to be a weak class.

Another couple points. In the War Room book, Belichick noted that 2nd round picks are often the riskiest in the draft, as they're usually guys who have 1st round talent, but there are question marks. Maybe it's work ethic, off the field stuff, size, whatever. But there's something. So they're a bit of a dice roll. It's also been noted in that book that the Pats view potential draft picks through the lens of: "Whose job can this kid take?" Basically, they want to know how competitive the draftee can be vis-a-vis someone already on the roster. Where will this draftee fit into the roster, and what role will he play? Can he do that role better than someone we already have? If the answer is "yes" or "probably," then they like that player.

By taking some safety no one has heard of, Belichick isn't saying: "I don't care what others think." Although I would reckon that he doesn't, that's not the impetus for this pick, obviously. What he's saying is: "I see a role for this guy on my team." That's the important part. They see a role on their team for Tavon Wilson. Maybe there were other players who "graded out higher," or whatever, but what would their role be? Whose job would they take? Are they going to do "their job" better than someone else who is already on the roster can do it?

As for the, "We could have gotten him in the 7th round!?!" argument, that rings a bit hollow to me. For one, the Patriots don't have a 7th round pick. So there's that. Second, teams weren't exactly falling over themselves trying to trade up. Clearly they see a role for this kid on their team or they wouldn't have drafted him. The other options available to them might be better players in a vacuum, but are they better players for the Patriots? I'm not assuming the answer to that question is "no," mind you, simply because they took Wilson; it's a valid question to ask. But, clearly, if the Patriots felt the answer was "no," then Tavon Wilson wouldn't have been drafted at that spot.

So what role can this kid play? He seems to have a lot of versatility, so that's a good thing. Has experience playing both safety and corner back. Played as a gunner on special teams. Can he play every spot in the defensive backfield? I think that's an interesting question, and one which I am in no way qualified to answer. It's one thing to say, "He can play CB and S." Can he play outside and inside CB positions? Can you play him as an "in the box" safety, and as a deep safety? If he can do all of those things and be pretty competent at all of them, that's arguably more valuable than a guy who can only play one DB spot, even if he can play that one spot better than Wilson will ever play any DB spot (to a degree, of course).

I'm going to stop rambling before the gin and tonics really take hold, but just some food for thought on this kid. I don't follow the draft nearly as closely as others, especially leading up to it, but the out-of-nowhere picks are always interesting to me. Someone is probably right here and someone is probably wrong here. And, right now, we don't really have any idea who. So that's kind of cool. And we may never know.

[Alternate34]

I got it. They selected Tavon with the second pick because all he needed was someone to believe in him. Now his talent is unlocked because he knows the Patriots think he is a second rounder.

I theorized that the Pats had broken the draft after the first day. It turned out I was right, but the consequences, the consequences...

[Super Nomario]

Re: Wilson specifically:

Justin Striebel ‏ @jstriebel22

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#illini RT @RavensInsider: Another safety the Ravens displayed interest in during predraft process: Illinois' Tavon Wilson

JennaLaineBucs ‏ @JennaLaineBucs

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Surprised Tavon Wilson isn't being discussed more as possible target for Bucs. Illinois safety did have a workout with the team...

Some clips from the Michigan game ... not too impressive to me, but I'm not an expert.
http://patspropagand...s-michigan-2011

[Super Nomario]

I keep seeing Sebastian Vollmer and Logan Mankins brought up as similarly "out of nowhere" picks. This seems a little more extreme though--Vollmer and Mankins were generally projected to be drafted the years they were picked, right?

Per this link http://www.boston.co...m.html#comments, Vollmer was projected as undrafted by Pro Football Weekly.

[MainerInExile]

I think the explanation is probably quite simple. He was the highest guy on their board, and they tried but couldn't trade the pick.

[E5 Yaz]

Tavon Wilson seems unique with no Combine and no all-star games. It seems unique and there were fewer opportunities to see him play.
"He played plenty. You can see him plenty at Illinois. You can see him against whoever you want to see him against: all the Big Ten schools, Arizona State, teams that throw the ball. He’s playing corner, he’s playing safety, he’s playing the inside positions, the nickel position, the dime position – Michigan State, they’re a good passing team; Michigan, they’re a spread out offense team. There’s a lot of passing in that conference, Northwestern, all those teams."

It was hard to find information on Tavon Wilson. It wasn’t in some of these scouting books. Does this represent a gap between the teams’ scouting and the media books?
"Similar situation with [Sebastian] Vollmer a couple of years ago. We drafted guys – I think one year, didn’t we draft like three of four guys that were non-Combine guys? Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don’t. I don’t know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don’t know who picks the Combine for that matter. How does [Brandon] Brooks not get invited to the Combine, kid from Miami, the offensive guard? How did Vollmer not get invited to the Combine? I don’t know. We can’t really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can. If they’re there, they’re there. If they’re not, they’re not. If they play in an all-star game, we look at it. If they don’t, they don’t."

Tavon Wilson said that you guys worked him out privately at Illinois. Who was there?
"Nick [Caserio] and Jon Robinson were there. We’ve crossed over a lot of these guys. I’m not sure I even keep track of who everybody worked out. Nick and Jon were both there."

Was there anything in his workout that caught their eye?
"No, I think his workout was consistent with the way he plays. I’d say that about [Jake] Bequette and I’d say that about [Dont’a] Hightower and I’d probably say that about Chandler Jones, too. I’d say those guys worked out consistently with what we saw on film. I think they’re all smart guys that can handle multiple responsibilities and had played at a good level and were productive at that level. Illinois, Syracuse, Alabama, Arkansas – those are all high level, competitive programs and those guys have all done well there for multiple years. I would say that when we went in to see those players, both in the interviews and the workouts and all that, that was represented in those meetings slash workouts."

http://espn.go.com/b...-day-2-of-draft

Edited by E5 Yaz, 28 April 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[The Best Catch in 100 Years]

This point has been made in the other thread, but I'm not convinced all these draft experts who stuck a 7th round+ grade on this guy and are lambasting the Patriots for the "poor value" are correct in their assumption that he would have still been around much later in the draft. When they're trying to prognosticate where players will be selected in the draft, most analysts seem to rely a lot on already-available scouting reports and whatever information team sources release; it makes sense that they would have certain blind spots. This is kind of circular reasoning, but I trust Bill Belichick's sense of where a guy's likely to go (or that of pretty much any other NFL personnel guy) much more than Todd McShay's or whoever else's. Other teams apparently had at least some interest in him, and if, as I'd assume, he was actually the top guy on BB's board at pick 48, the Patriots did well to pounce early.

[Reverend]

If threads in this forum start falling apart because a few good posters post ironically and some, er, other posters, can't understand what is going on... that will be bad.

Which is to say, I think there are some posts in here intended to be humorous that some find unhumorous. Or more precisely, fail to recognize as humorous.

Which is also to say that there are some negative posts in here that... <excised>.

In summation*: Logan Fucking Mankins.

*This is in no way a guarantee of any given pick, but it is a statement of why no given unexpected pick ought to be discredited. Troll face, Snoogins. Later.

Edited by Reverend, 28 April 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[phragle]

[Groovenstein]

I think the explanation is probably quite simple. He was the highest guy on their board, and they tried but couldn't trade the pick.

Obv we'll never know, but this makes as much sense as anything. It's not like they can take any offer that comes their way. If no one makes a decent offer, you take the best guy you can. [Edit: By "best
guy I mean guy you value the highest.]

Edited by Groovenstein, 28 April 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[steveluck7]

Greg Bedard on CSN last evening referred to him as "Tavon Martin" no fewer than 2 times in 1 segment. I cringed both times.

Also, why trade the 2nd 2? It seems, at the very least, that he could have traded the 1st 2nd rounder for a better return and get this guy with the other one, or trade both and get this guy in the 3rd...

[URI]

If threads in this forum start falling apart because a few good posters post ironically and some, er, other posters, can't understand what is going on... that will be bad.

Which is to say, I think there are some posts in here intended to be humorous that some find unhumorous. Or more precisely, fail to recognize as humorous.

Which is also to say that there are some negative posts in here that... <excised>.

In summation*: Logan Fucking Mankins.

*This is in no way a guarantee of any given pick, but it is a statement of why no given unexpected pick ought to be discredited. Troll face, Snoogins. Later.

Belichick got to you too.

[Caspir]

Greg Bedard on CSN last evening referred to him as "Tavon Martin" no fewer than 2 times in 1 segment. I cringed both times.

Also, why trade the 2nd 2? It seems, at the very least, that he could have traded the 1st 2nd rounder for a better return and get this guy with the other one, or trade both and get this guy in the 3rd...

Because you need a partner to complete a trade, and just making picks available doesn't guarantee interest? Also, the Patriots twitter said that they were trying to trade down, which is different (in terms of value) than another team trying to trade up. Wouldn't surprise me if they made the pick available, but didn't generate enough interest.

[ivanvamp]

CHFF round 2 analysis here (http://cnnsi.com/foo...analysis/2.html).

On Wilson: "New England has left as many as three Super Bowl titles on the table because it sported defenses that couldn't make critical stops in 2006, 2007 and 2011. The all-out effort to change those fortunes continues with their third defender -- one at each level -- drafted among the first 48 picks. Wilson, a three-year starter, was one of the Illini's best tacklers."

Ok that sounds pretty good - I like good tacklers at safety.

But LOL, he's the only guy they don't even have a picture for, and their grade for that pick (2.05) was by far the lowest in the 2nd round (next lowest was a 2.50).

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I'm glad to see things got a little more tame regarding Tavon Wilson the last few hours. I can understand how confusion can turn into bewilderment, but the backlash in the draft thread oozed into this thread. Yuck.

I just had a few thoughts on the pick.

1.) They didn't draft him with special teams in mind. They drafted him to play safety. That's not saying he won't play special teams, but this team had a need at safety and they went and got the player they felt best fit their system and was the best overall talent. All these "draftniks" think they watch a bunch of film, but they're just watching the same film that everyone else watched. It's amazing that people can complain about how awful the pick was, and then follow it up with "I've never even heard of this guy!!!1!" Well, gee, if you've never even heard of him, how the fuck do you know he's not a good player?

For all the complaints about "you probably could have got him later and traded back"...you don't know that. It might be true, but does that even matter? To be honest, the fact that BB didn't trade back (they still had 6 minutes to take incoming calls) gives me more confidence in the pick. If you know that most teams don't have him on the radar, then BB knows most teams don't have him on the radar. That to me means that BB valued him enough that he didn't want to take the chance of waiting a few rounds for him to fall. This was BB's guy and he wanted him.

2.) I've always believed the "Devin McCourty will be a full time safety" conversation was garbage. He played poorly in the first handful of games on the season and then started to play very well again. He was thrust into the safety position more because of need. We had nobody to play safety. Chung was out until the last game of the season, Ihedigbo was in and out of the lineup, Barrett, Slater, Brown...they had nobody back there. On the other hand, the Patriots had some CB help. Moore and Arrington could hold down the fort at CB, and there was no way they could play safety (Moore tried and failed.) McCourty was the option.

I think that this pick confirms that Bill wants McCourty back at cornerback. It brings stability back into the defensive secondary. I have a lot more thoughts on the secondary, but I don't want to go off on a tangent.

What I do want to do is try to get a little feel of Tavon Wilson through some of the analysis that's out there.

A thickly put together safety prospect with a compact frame and natural girth through the mid section. However, looks heavy-footed when trying to re-direct and isn't real sudden/explosive in space. Tries to sit into his drop off the line and does a decent job keeping his base down and feet under him. However, gets upright when asked to turn and run, is stiff in the hips and lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder. Struggles in tight areas as well, doesn't feel routes develop around him quickly and lacks the fluidity to open up his hips laterally and close. Gets very grabby and is uncomfortable in space and doesn't possess the short area quickness/range to hold up in man. Possesses questionable instincts as well, rarely getting early jumps on the football and struggles to recognize his run/pass keys at times.

Displays a slight burst attacking downhill and running the alley. Locates the football quickly and has the tenacity needed to work his way toward the ball carrier. However, lacks that second gear to routinely make the play. Sees his fair share of angles outpaced toward daylight and isn't the most effective when asked to breakdown one-on-one. Lowers his shoulder into contact and generates some pop into contact when in a phone booth. However, is inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Impression: A thick framed kid with some natural power, but his lacking closing gear shows up in both the run and pass game.

Tackling Mechanics

• Displays a slight burst attacking downhill and running the alley.
• Locates the football quickly and has the tenacity needed to work his way toward the ball carrier.
• Lacks that second gear to routinely make the play.
• Isn't the most effective when asked to breakdown one-on-one.
• Lowers his shoulder into contact and generates some pop into contact when in a phone booth.
• inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Sounds to me like a guy who has the ability to be a true "run first" safety in the NFL. It also sounds to me like he'll be a perfect compliment to Patrick Chung. Chung has done a pretty good job playing both the pass and run, but he's been getting injured because of his slight frame. Chung has a hard time holding up in the trenches (not a knock on him, he's more than willing to launch himself into the pile.) Tavon, on the other hand, is described as "A thickly put together safety prospect with a compact frame and natural girth through the mid section." This pick could benefit us three ways. We get a real safety, it isn't James Ihedigbo, it might keep Patrick Chunk off the IR.

Basically, this kid can control everything between the hash marks. He's a run stopper. Steve Gregory isn't. Patrick Chung isn't. This kid is.

Pass Defending Technique

• Looks heavy-footed when trying to re-direct and isn't real sudden/explosive in space.
• Tries to sit into his drop off the line and does a decent job keeping his base down and feet under him.
• Gets upright when asked to turn and run, is stiff in the hips and lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.
• Struggles in tight areas
• Doesn't feel routes develop around him quickly and lacks the fluidity to open up his hips laterally and close.
• Gets very grabby and is uncomfortable in space and doesn't possess the short area quickness/range to hold up in man
• Possesses questionable instincts as well, rarely getting early jumps on the football and struggles to recognize his run/pass keys at times.

I can describe my feeling about all these traits in three words...I don't care.

Almost every single one of these issues is a major issue for a cornerback, not a safety. Since Wilson played so much time at corner, that's what some analysts judged him as. Well, it's clear he isn't a great cornerback, but that's not what the Patriots plan on using him as. Only two of the issues listed above might affect his play at safety...

1.) Lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.

and

2.) Possesses questionable instincts

First, the range as a centerfielder is severely mitigated if he'll be playing SS and Chung is playing FS. Chung will be our centerfielder, so this is less of a problem. The instincts one can be a bit more of a problem. But I assume that this scouting report is judging him more on cornerback play then safety play. Your run/pass reads as a cornerback are entirely different then they would be at safety. When playing corner, you have to play your man and base your run/pass instinct off contact with your WR. You then have to sneak a peak at the developing play. As a safety, you see everything develop in front of you. The only time you don't know 100% if it's a run or a pass is on a play-action. Even then, you get the chance to see the linemen sit back into a pass blocking technique instead of going forward aggressively into a run block. You'll see the WR head out on their routes instead of staying into block.

What We Know
We know that we don't know a thing about how he'll play against the pass as a safety. The scouting reports talk about his weakness against man (which he'll rarely play as a safety) and his inadequacy as a cornerback. Neither of those things translate to any knowledge about his ability against the pass as a safety. Stick Troy Polamalu at cornerback and have him play man coverage, see how he does.

We know he's a team leader and a hard worker. We know he can stop the run. We know he doesn't have the pedigree of many players that were left in the draft, but what does that even mean? Hell, he was drafted as a safety and played the last several games at safety, yet scouts and draft experts are picking apart his game as a fucking cornerback! That alone tells me that there was a disconnect with this kid and the public. I don't know how he's going to turn out, but I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach, because it doesn't sound like any of the "experts" have any fucking clue what this kid can actually do.

Edited by Kenny F'ing Powers, 28 April 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[pedroia'sboys]

I'm glad to see things got a little more tame regarding Tavon Wilson the last few hours. I can understand how confusion can turn into bewilderment, but the backlash in the draft thread oozed into this thread. Yuck.

I just had a few thoughts on the pick.

1.) They didn't draft him with special teams in mind. They drafted him to play safety. That's not saying he won't play special teams, but this team had a need at safety and they went and got the player they felt best fit their system and was the best overall talent. All these "draftniks" think they watch a bunch of film, but they're just watching the same film that everyone else watched. It's amazing that people can complain about how awful the pick was, and then follow it up with "I've never even heard of this guy!!!1!" Well, gee, if you've never even heard of him, how the fuck do you know he's not a good player?

For all the complaints about "you probably could have got him later and traded back"...you don't know that. It might be true, but does that even matter? To be honest, the fact that BB didn't trade back (they still had 6 minutes to take incoming calls) gives me more confidence in the pick. If you know that most teams don't have him on the radar, then BB knows most teams don't have him on the radar. That to me means that BB valued him enough that he didn't want to take the chance of waiting a few rounds for him to fall. This was BB's guy and he wanted him.

2.) I've always believed the "Devin McCourty will be a full time safety" conversation was garbage. He played poorly in the first handful of games on the season and then started to play very well again. He was thrust into the safety position more because of need. We had nobody to play safety. Chung was out until the last game of the season, Ihedigbo was in and out of the lineup, Barrett, Slater, Brown...they had nobody back there. On the other hand, the Patriots had some CB help. Moore and Arrington could hold down the fort at CB, and there was no way they could play safety (Moore tried and failed.) McCourty was the option.

I think that this pick confirms that Bill wants McCourty back at cornerback. It brings stability back into the defensive secondary. I have a lot more thoughts on the secondary, but I don't want to go off on a tangent.

What I do want to do is try to get a little feel of Tavon Wilson through some of the analysis that's out there.

[/font][/size][/font][/color]

Tackling Mechanics

• Displays a slight burst attacking downhill and running the alley.
• Locates the football quickly and has the tenacity needed to work his way toward the ball carrier.
• Lacks that second gear to routinely make the play.
• Isn't the most effective when asked to breakdown one-on-one.
• Lowers his shoulder into contact and generates some pop into contact when in a phone booth.
• inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Sounds to me like a guy who has the ability to be a true "run first" safety in the NFL. It also sounds to me like he'll be a perfect compliment to Patrick Chung. Chung has done a pretty good job playing both the pass and run, but he's been getting injured because of his slight frame. Chung has a hard time holding up in the trenches (not a knock on him, he's more than willing to launch himself into the pile.) Tavon, on the other hand, is described as "A thickly put together safety prospect with a compact frame and natural girth through the mid section." This pick could benefit us three ways. We get a real safety, it isn't James Ihedigbo, it might keep Patrick Chunk off the IR.

Basically, this kid can control everything between the hash marks. He's a run stopper. Steve Gregory isn't. Patrick Chung isn't. This kid is.

Pass Defending Technique

• Looks heavy-footed when trying to re-direct and isn't real sudden/explosive in space.
• Tries to sit into his drop off the line and does a decent job keeping his base down and feet under him.
• Gets upright when asked to turn and run, is stiff in the hips and lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.
• Struggles in tight areas
• Doesn't feel routes develop around him quickly and lacks the fluidity to open up his hips laterally and close.
• Gets very grabby and is uncomfortable in space and doesn't possess the short area quickness/range to hold up in man
• Possesses questionable instincts as well, rarely getting early jumps on the football and struggles to recognize his run/pass keys at times.

I can describe my feeling about all these traits in three words...I don't care.

Almost every single one of these issues is a major issue for a cornerback, not a safety. Since Wilson played so much time at corner, that's what some analysts judged him as. Well, it's clear he isn't a great cornerback, but that's not what the Patriots plan on using him as. Only two of the issues listed above might affect his play at safety...

1.) Lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.

and

2.) Possesses questionable instincts

First, the range as a centerfielder is severely mitigated if he'll be playing SS and Chung is playing FS. Chung will be our centerfielder, so this is less of a problem. The instincts one can be a bit more of a problem. But I assume that this scouting report is judging him more on cornerback play then safety play. Your run/pass reads as a cornerback are entirely different then they would be at safety. When playing corner, you have to play your man and base your run/pass instinct off contact with your WR. You then have to sneak a peak at the developing play. As a safety, you see everything develop in front of you. The only time you don't know 100% if it's a run or a pass is on a play-action. Even then, you get the chance to see the linemen sit back into a pass blocking technique instead of going forward aggressively into a run block. You'll see the WR head out on their routes instead of staying into block.

What We Know
We know that we don't know a thing about how he'll play against the pass as a safety. The scouting reports talk about his weakness against man (which he'll rarely play as a safety) and his inadequacy as a cornerback. Neither of those things translate to any knowledge about his ability against the pass as a safety. Stick Troy Polamalu at cornerback and have him play man coverage, see how he does.

We know he's a team leader and a hard worker. We know he can stop the run. We know he doesn't have the pedigree of many players that were left in the draft, but what does that even mean? Hell, he was drafted as a safety and played the last several games at safety, yet scouts and draft experts are picking apart his game as a fucking cornerback! That alone tells me that there was a disconnect with this kid and the public. I don't know how he's going to turn out, but I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach, because it doesn't sound like any of the "experts" have any fucking clue what this kid can actually do.

One of the best post I have read in here.
Love when people always misuse the term value. The patriots didn't get value based on the media's/publics perception of his worth. How the hell are any of us suppose to know if one other team fell in love with him. If one other team had him rated as their top player left, and he was by far the top guy on their board, explain to me how they didnt get value. Even if no other team had him rated as a second round prospect, I would still expect him to draft the top guy on his board, especially not having picks later in the draft. Why risk it?For two days all I heard was fucking Boykin by every expert. If we took him we would of got our "values" worth, yet somehow this stud didn't get drafted yet. We need to trade up so we can take him and make up for our lost value. Loved Belichick's answer about the trading chart.

"I don’t know. To make a trade, you have to have two people agree to it. So if two people agree, then whatever it is, it’s a good trade if you’re willing to accept the terms that someone else is willing to give you and vice versa. If it works for both teams, then you have a trade. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t make a difference what any chart says or what any value is. If two teams aren’t willing to make the exchange, then you don’t have a trade. I don’t care what the chart says."

Edited by pedroia'sboys, 28 April 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Royal Reader]

The Pats seemingly don't think much of this draft class. Or, at the very least, they don't think it's very deep. If they did, they probably would have accumulated more picks. They probably wouldn't be discarding 3rd and 4th rounders to target specific guys in the 1st round. They probably wouldn't have taken a lesser deal from GB to trade down. Frankly, it doesn't appear that they see a lot of players who can add value to their team here. So, that's a pretty salient point, I think. Obvious, maybe, but it seems like some aren't considering that as strongly as they should. Being an 'X' round pick means different things from year to year, because the talent level varies from year to year. It's what mabrowndog was referring to in the game thread. The 48th pick, or whatever pick, does not have the same value every year. Expectations need to be scaled to the talent level of the class. And this appears to be a weak class.

This is true, but whatever you think of the talent level in a specific draft, you can still usually get a first the following year for it (particularly the Oakland pick, since it was top half). Or a second the following year and a third this. That's the real opportunity cost - not taking someone Bill didn't want, but the chance to get a better player next year.

Of course, everyone thought Vollmer was a massive reach, then it emerged there were two teams drafting shortly after New England who were considering him. It really can't be stated enough times that the teams' boards are all very different to both Kiper's and each others'. If the Patriots consider X a second round talent, it doesn't matter if half the league think he's a sixth rounder so long as two or three other teams agree with their assessment. In the same way there are guys who are projected in the first round who they'd never, ever take however much they fell.

[Van Everyman]

Greg Bedard on CSN last evening referred to him as "Tavon Martin" no fewer than 2 times in 1 segment. I cringed both times.

If Obama had a son that played safety, he'd look like Tavon Wilson.

Edited by Van Everyman, 28 April 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[ivanvamp]

We know he's a team leader and a hard worker. We know he can stop the run. We know he doesn't have the pedigree of many players that were left in the draft, but what does that even mean? Hell, he was drafted as a safety and played the last several games at safety, yet scouts and draft experts are picking apart his game as a fucking cornerback! That alone tells me that there was a disconnect with this kid and the public. I don't know how he's going to turn out, but I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach, because it doesn't sound like any of the "experts" have any fucking clue what this kid can actually do.

Kenny, we all really have no choice but to "wait and see", on *all* of the picks. I like the Hightower pick a lot, but what do I know? Maybe his game/attitude/whatever really *won't* translate to the pros and maybe he'll be a pretty bad pick. Maybe Wilson ends up being the best of the four guys they've picked so far. We don't really know.

Honest question, and because I respect your football knowledge a lot, I'd love to hear you on this. When you first heard the announcement of the Wilson pick, what were your initial thoughts?

[Royal Reader]

If Obama had a son that played safety, he'd look like Tavon Wilson.

Outstanding.

[SoxVindaloo]

I'm glad to see things got a little more tame regarding Tavon Wilson the last few hours. I can understand how confusion can turn into bewilderment, but the backlash in the draft thread oozed into this thread. Yuck.

I just had a few thoughts on the pick.

1.) They didn't draft him with special teams in mind. They drafted him to play safety. That's not saying he won't play special teams, but this team had a need at safety and they went and got the player they felt best fit their system and was the best overall talent. All these "draftniks" think they watch a bunch of film, but they're just watching the same film that everyone else watched. It's amazing that people can complain about how awful the pick was, and then follow it up with "I've never even heard of this guy!!!1!" Well, gee, if you've never even heard of him, how the fuck do you know he's not a good player?

For all the complaints about "you probably could have got him later and traded back"...you don't know that. It might be true, but does that even matter? To be honest, the fact that BB didn't trade back (they still had 6 minutes to take incoming calls) gives me more confidence in the pick. If you know that most teams don't have him on the radar, then BB knows most teams don't have him on the radar. That to me means that BB valued him enough that he didn't want to take the chance of waiting a few rounds for him to fall. This was BB's guy and he wanted him.

2.) I've always believed the "Devin McCourty will be a full time safety" conversation was garbage. He played poorly in the first handful of games on the season and then started to play very well again. He was thrust into the safety position more because of need. We had nobody to play safety. Chung was out until the last game of the season, Ihedigbo was in and out of the lineup, Barrett, Slater, Brown...they had nobody back there. On the other hand, the Patriots had some CB help. Moore and Arrington could hold down the fort at CB, and there was no way they could play safety (Moore tried and failed.) McCourty was the option.

I think that this pick confirms that Bill wants McCourty back at cornerback. It brings stability back into the defensive secondary. I have a lot more thoughts on the secondary, but I don't want to go off on a tangent.

What I do want to do is try to get a little feel of Tavon Wilson through some of the analysis that's out there.

[/font][/size][/font][/color]

Tackling Mechanics

• Displays a slight burst attacking downhill and running the alley.
• Locates the football quickly and has the tenacity needed to work his way toward the ball carrier.
• Lacks that second gear to routinely make the play.
• Isn't the most effective when asked to breakdown one-on-one.
• Lowers his shoulder into contact and generates some pop into contact when in a phone booth.
• inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Sounds to me like a guy who has the ability to be a true "run first" safety in the NFL. It also sounds to me like he'll be a perfect compliment to Patrick Chung. Chung has done a pretty good job playing both the pass and run, but he's been getting injured because of his slight frame. Chung has a hard time holding up in the trenches (not a knock on him, he's more than willing to launch himself into the pile.) Tavon, on the other hand, is described as "A thickly put together safety prospect with a compact frame and natural girth through the mid section." This pick could benefit us three ways. We get a real safety, it isn't James Ihedigbo, it might keep Patrick Chunk off the IR.

Basically, this kid can control everything between the hash marks. He's a run stopper. Steve Gregory isn't. Patrick Chung isn't. This kid is.

Pass Defending Technique

• Looks heavy-footed when trying to re-direct and isn't real sudden/explosive in space.
• Tries to sit into his drop off the line and does a decent job keeping his base down and feet under him.
• Gets upright when asked to turn and run, is stiff in the hips and lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.
• Struggles in tight areas
• Doesn't feel routes develop around him quickly and lacks the fluidity to open up his hips laterally and close.
• Gets very grabby and is uncomfortable in space and doesn't possess the short area quickness/range to hold up in man
• Possesses questionable instincts as well, rarely getting early jumps on the football and struggles to recognize his run/pass keys at times.

I can describe my feeling about all these traits in three words...I don't care.

Almost every single one of these issues is a major issue for a cornerback, not a safety. Since Wilson played so much time at corner, that's what some analysts judged him as. Well, it's clear he isn't a great cornerback, but that's not what the Patriots plan on using him as. Only two of the issues listed above might affect his play at safety...

1.) Lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.

and

2.) Possesses questionable instincts

First, the range as a centerfielder is severely mitigated if he'll be playing SS and Chung is playing FS. Chung will be our centerfielder, so this is less of a problem. The instincts one can be a bit more of a problem. But I assume that this scouting report is judging him more on cornerback play then safety play. Your run/pass reads as a cornerback are entirely different then they would be at safety. When playing corner, you have to play your man and base your run/pass instinct off contact with your WR. You then have to sneak a peak at the developing play. As a safety, you see everything develop in front of you. The only time you don't know 100% if it's a run or a pass is on a play-action. Even then, you get the chance to see the linemen sit back into a pass blocking technique instead of going forward aggressively into a run block. You'll see the WR head out on their routes instead of staying into block.

What We Know
We know that we don't know a thing about how he'll play against the pass as a safety. The scouting reports talk about his weakness against man (which he'll rarely play as a safety) and his inadequacy as a cornerback. Neither of those things translate to any knowledge about his ability against the pass as a safety. Stick Troy Polamalu at cornerback and have him play man coverage, see how he does.

We know he's a team leader and a hard worker. We know he can stop the run. We know he doesn't have the pedigree of many players that were left in the draft, but what does that even mean? Hell, he was drafted as a safety and played the last several games at safety, yet scouts and draft experts are picking apart his game as a fucking cornerback! That alone tells me that there was a disconnect with this kid and the public. I don't know how he's going to turn out, but I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach, because it doesn't sound like any of the "experts" have any fucking clue what this kid can actually do.

Great

I'm glad to see things got a little more tame regarding Tavon Wilson the last few hours. I can understand how confusion can turn into bewilderment, but the backlash in the draft thread oozed into this thread. Yuck.

I just had a few thoughts on the pick.

1.) They didn't draft him with special teams in mind. They drafted him to play safety. That's not saying he won't play special teams, but this team had a need at safety and they went and got the player they felt best fit their system and was the best overall talent. All these "draftniks" think they watch a bunch of film, but they're just watching the same film that everyone else watched. It's amazing that people can complain about how awful the pick was, and then follow it up with "I've never even heard of this guy!!!1!" Well, gee, if you've never even heard of him, how the fuck do you know he's not a good player?

For all the complaints about "you probably could have got him later and traded back"...you don't know that. It might be true, but does that even matter? To be honest, the fact that BB didn't trade back (they still had 6 minutes to take incoming calls) gives me more confidence in the pick. If you know that most teams don't have him on the radar, then BB knows most teams don't have him on the radar. That to me means that BB valued him enough that he didn't want to take the chance of waiting a few rounds for him to fall. This was BB's guy and he wanted him.

2.) I've always believed the "Devin McCourty will be a full time safety" conversation was garbage. He played poorly in the first handful of games on the season and then started to play very well again. He was thrust into the safety position more because of need. We had nobody to play safety. Chung was out until the last game of the season, Ihedigbo was in and out of the lineup, Barrett, Slater, Brown...they had nobody back there. On the other hand, the Patriots had some CB help. Moore and Arrington could hold down the fort at CB, and there was no way they could play safety (Moore tried and failed.) McCourty was the option.

I think that this pick confirms that Bill wants McCourty back at cornerback. It brings stability back into the defensive secondary. I have a lot more thoughts on the secondary, but I don't want to go off on a tangent.

What I do want to do is try to get a little feel of Tavon Wilson through some of the analysis that's out there.

[/font][/size][/font][/color]

Tackling Mechanics

• Displays a slight burst attacking downhill and running the alley.
• Locates the football quickly and has the tenacity needed to work his way toward the ball carrier.
• Lacks that second gear to routinely make the play.
• Isn't the most effective when asked to breakdown one-on-one.
• Lowers his shoulder into contact and generates some pop into contact when in a phone booth.
• inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Sounds to me like a guy who has the ability to be a true "run first" safety in the NFL. It also sounds to me like he'll be a perfect compliment to Patrick Chung. Chung has done a pretty good job playing both the pass and run, but he's been getting injured because of his slight frame. Chung has a hard time holding up in the trenches (not a knock on him, he's more than willing to launch himself into the pile.) Tavon, on the other hand, is described as "A thickly put together safety prospect with a compact frame and natural girth through the mid section." This pick could benefit us three ways. We get a real safety, it isn't James Ihedigbo, it might keep Patrick Chunk off the IR.

Basically, this kid can control everything between the hash marks. He's a run stopper. Steve Gregory isn't. Patrick Chung isn't. This kid is.

Pass Defending Technique

• Looks heavy-footed when trying to re-direct and isn't real sudden/explosive in space.
• Tries to sit into his drop off the line and does a decent job keeping his base down and feet under him.
• Gets upright when asked to turn and run, is stiff in the hips and lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.
• Struggles in tight areas
• Doesn't feel routes develop around him quickly and lacks the fluidity to open up his hips laterally and close.
• Gets very grabby and is uncomfortable in space and doesn't possess the short area quickness/range to hold up in man
• Possesses questionable instincts as well, rarely getting early jumps on the football and struggles to recognize his run/pass keys at times.

I can describe my feeling about all these traits in three words...I don't care.

Almost every single one of these issues is a major issue for a cornerback, not a safety. Since Wilson played so much time at corner, that's what some analysts judged him as. Well, it's clear he isn't a great cornerback, but that's not what the Patriots plan on using him as. Only two of the issues listed above might affect his play at safety...

1.) Lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.

and

2.) Possesses questionable instincts

First, the range as a centerfielder is severely mitigated if he'll be playing SS and Chung is playing FS. Chung will be our centerfielder, so this is less of a problem. The instincts one can be a bit more of a problem. But I assume that this scouting report is judging him more on cornerback play then safety play. Your run/pass reads as a cornerback are entirely different then they would be at safety. When playing corner, you have to play your man and base your run/pass instinct off contact with your WR. You then have to sneak a peak at the developing play. As a safety, you see everything develop in front of you. The only time you don't know 100% if it's a run or a pass is on a play-action. Even then, you get the chance to see the linemen sit back into a pass blocking technique instead of going forward aggressively into a run block. You'll see the WR head out on their routes instead of staying into block.

What We Know
We know that we don't know a thing about how he'll play against the pass as a safety. The scouting reports talk about his weakness against man (which he'll rarely play as a safety) and his inadequacy as a cornerback. Neither of those things translate to any knowledge about his ability against the pass as a safety. Stick Troy Polamalu at cornerback and have him play man coverage, see how he does.

We know he's a team leader and a hard worker. We know he can stop the run. We know he doesn't have the pedigree of many players that were left in the draft, but what does that even mean? Hell, he was drafted as a safety and played the last several games at safety, yet scouts and draft experts are picking apart his game as a fucking cornerback! That alone tells me that there was a disconnect with this kid and the public. I don't know how he's going to turn out, but I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach, because it doesn't sound like any of the "experts" have any fucking clue what this kid can actually do.

Great post KFP. You took the noise right out of this pick. It would be interesting to look at some old scouting reports for current NFL guys that were CB/S in college but fared poorly at CB. I'm gonna take a stab at it.

[phragle]

Honest question, and because I respect your football knowledge a lot, I'd love to hear you on this. When you first heard the announcement of the Wilson pick, what were your initial thoughts?

[pedroia'sboys]

Not saying his draft record is perfect, because it isnt and no ones is. It's amazing to me the reaction this deal got. You have a guy who everybody calls the best coach in football. Hasn't won less than 10 games in 9 years. He is the gm and the coach of the team, that just came a cunt hair from winning another superbowl. Yet when the pick was announced everyone rushed to the media's side instead of asking the fascinating question that should be being asked right now. What the hell did Bill Belichick see in that film, that everyone else didn't see.

[j44thor]

• inconsistent wrapping up at times, as he will slip off backs and allow ball carriers to create through contact.

Sounds to me like a guy who has the ability to be a true "run first" safety in the NFL. It also sounds to me like he'll be a perfect compliment to Patrick Chung. Chung has done a pretty good job playing both the pass and run,

1.) Lacks the range to get off the top as a centerfielder.

and

2.) Possesses questionable instincts

First, the range as a centerfielder is severely mitigated if he'll be playing SS and Chung is playing FS. Chung will be our centerfielder,

So he is going to be a run first safety who has trouble tackling RB's and Chung is going to be our FS? Chung IMO is pretty awful against the pass especially in the deep part of the field as he seems to struggle with play action and certainly doesn't have the speed to recover well. I really thought Chung was the definition of SS and used as such, particularly when playing with McCourty who has much better speed/coverage skills.