730 replies to this topic

[DukeSox]

I would like to point out just how poor Bobby V's decision to pitch a position player AFTER the other team made that move first, which would seem to greatly increase the chances for the Red Sox to win...until he matched the decision.

BOSTON -- In the first major league game since 1925 in which both teams put a position player on the mound, Baltimore designated hitter Chris Davisovercame an awful day at the plate by pitching two scoreless innings and getting the win as the Orioles outlasted Boston 9-6 Sunday in 17 innings.

The last time two teams brought in position players to pitch in the same game was Oct. 4, 1925, when Hall of Famers Ty Cobb of Detroit and George Sisler of the St. Louis Browns closed out the second game of a doubleheader on the last day of the season, STATS LLC said.

So a manager bringing in a position player AFTER the opposing manager did so, hasn't happened IN 87 YEARS. And the last time it did, it was a meaningless end of the season game. So who knows when it was before that.

Regardless, in nearly a century, every single manager has realized that the other team bringing in position player to pitch (blow out or not) is a white flag, that you take advantage of by keeping in your real pitchers, not matching the move.

This team needs wins, if nothing else just to stop losing at home. Instead of putting in a starter and figuring it out later, he kept the starters on the bench not wanting to disrupt whatever starter rhythm he thought was appropriate to increase their chances for a good performance in a future game. Yet this was a real game, that the other team was handing over, the opportunity for a real win, right now. And he didn't take it. He is clueless.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Once the O's had given up by sending a position player to the mound on the road, it's unforgivable that Valentine would do the same instead of using a real pitcher, any real pitcher, in the 17th. "Not fair?" What is this, pre-school? Get your professional pitcher down to the bullpen, get him warmed up, and take advantage of the win opportunity being presented to you on a silver platter. The Sox needed the win much more badly than the O's did today, and he still sent out McDonald to pitch.

It's beyond description at this point and it's indefensible.

EDIT: largely addressed by DukeSox above.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

It likely wasn't a hit-and-run, or Sweeney missed the sign. Because he didn't swing.

BobbyV just sent the runner. Aviles. On Wieters.

I think you have your answer.

This game was just horrible all around, including from BV who had no real reason to have DMac on the mound yet. Just bizarre. But in the steal situation, maybe I missed it, but do we know he sent the runner? Or did Aviles go on his own? Or did he think he saw a sign that wasn't there?

[TomRicardo]

Awful. He should be fired tomorrow.

[bosox4283]

Awful. He should be fired tomorrow.

Why? It's not Bobby V's fault the Sox could not score a one off a first baseman. It is not Bobby V's fault that Gonzalez struck out (!) against him.

[BoSox Rule]

Why? It's not Bobby V's fault the Sox could not score a one off a first baseman. It is not Bobby V's fault that Gonzalez struck out (!) against him.

It's his fault Darnell McDonald threw Adam Jones batting practice.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why? It's not Bobby V's fault the Sox could not score a one off a first baseman. It is not Bobby V's fault that Gonzalez struck out (!) against him.

It is Bobby V's fault for not sending out a real pitcher once Davis was pitching for the O's. Because the chances of a real pitcher (in this case, Dubront) giving up a run before the position player are very, very low.

So Davis pitched 2 scoreless. So what? Make him try to pitch 3. Chances are very good he wouldn't be able to do it.

Also, the Sox and Valentine knew full well that Cook was going on the DL and Miller was going to be recalled. So losing tomorrow's starter to pitch today wouldn't have been a huge deal since they could just have Miller start in Dubront's stead.

[CaptainLaddie]

Exactly.

I was rooting for Bobby before today. I was willing to put up with his shit because I thought that maybe he'll get something going. It's INDEFENSIBLE that V didn't have a real pitcher in there.

[BoSox Rule]

It has to be the most brain dead move since Grady left Pedro in. Thats like what 30 non-Francona games?

[glennhoffmania]

I have never had such little faith in the head coach of a team I root for. Every game I wonder what ridiculous move or decision he's going to make. I've never seen anything like this. It's incredible how the organization went from being one of the smartest from top to bottom to one of the dumbest in such a short amount of time. It has really sapped my interest in this team and this season.

[ngruz25]

Bobby had the following options in the 16th inning:

1. Have Atchison pitch another inning. Atchison had pitched 3 innings today and 6 in the last two. Continuing to pitch him risks injury to one of the team's best relievers.
2. Pitch Mortensen, who had thrown 3 innings yesterday and 6 in the last five. Pitching him risks injury to a fungible reliever.
3. Pitch Felix Doubront. Having Felix pitch would probably necessitate Daisuke's activation for tomorrow's game, and another mystery man's addition to piggyback off Daisuke's 3-5 innings. Or rather, you could have Felix pitch on back-to-back days and risk injury to a pretty important young pitcher.
4. Pray for your offense to score a run off a DH, and if not, that your OF can match said DH in a fielder's duel.

The preferable option, of course, would have been scoring some runs against the DH. The starting catcher and 3B struck out on three pitches and hit a weak fly to CF, respectively. The starting CF then grounded weakly to 3B and reached on an error. There would have been runners on 2nd and 3rd and two outs for the team's best hitter had Byrd not strapped a piano to his back somewhere around third base or been held up by Not Bogar.

The next preferable option was probably Mortensen. I'm not sure why they care about his arm.

[czar]

Also, the Sox and Valentine knew full well that Cook was going on the DL and Miller was going to be recalled. So losing tomorrow's starter to pitch today wouldn't have been a huge deal since they could just have Miller start in Dubront's stead.

Full disclosure: I agree with the "why didn't Bobby use a real pitcher sentiment" (as evidenced by the last page of this thread).

However, Miller pitched today and is not stretched out. It isn't *quite* as easy as swapping Doubront with someone on the team, although I think going with Doubront (if he was able to get up in 1/2 an inning) and then demoting Miller and calling up Pawtucket's Monday starter* for tomorrow's game essentially guarantees the team of *at least* 1-1 split over the next 2 days.

Very general assumptions, but pitch a real pitcher (Doubront) and you are 90-10 to win today. Throw D-Mac and you are 50-50. Tomorrow vs. the Royals w/ Doubront you are 50-50. With AAA filler you are 40-60. 1.4 expected wins using Doubront vs. 1.0 without using him. Specifics (like if Doubront could get loose, etc.) aside, the odds seem strongly tilted towards just eating the bait when Buck Showalter hands it to you off a hook in the form of Chris Davis on the mound (for multiple innings).

3. Pitch Felix Doubront. Having Felix pitch would probably necessitate Daisuke's activation for tomorrow's game, and another mystery man's addition to piggyback off Daisuke's 3-5 innings. Or rather, you could have Felix pitch on back-to-back days and risk injury to a pretty important young pitcher.

*No way Doubront pitches back-to-back days. You could have called up Dice-K, I suppose, but the preferable solution was probably to use Germano or Ohlendorf who are stretched out and would be working on some normal semblance of rest (unless I missed something in the boxscores).

Edited by czar, 06 May 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Full disclosure: I agree with the "why didn't Bobby use a real pitcher sentiment" (as evidenced by the last page of this thread).

However, Miller pitched today and is not stretched out. It isn't *quite* as easy as swapping Doubront with someone on the team, although I think going with Doubront (if he was able to get up in 1/2 an inning) and then demoting Miller and calling up Pawtucket's Monday starter for tomorrow's game essentially guarantees the team of at least 1-1 split over the next 2 days.

Thanks for the info, I hadn't realized Miller pitched today, not sure how I missed that although I was on the road most of the day. So not quite as easy, indeed.

Still, have to pitch Dubront and figure out a move tomorrow. We appear to be in agreement there.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

The next preferable option was probably Mortensen. I'm not sure why they care about his arm.

What's the point of the 8 man bullpen if you'd rather go to an OF than this guy in an emergency situation like this? He was a throw-in in a salary dump trade, he's got almost no value to lose if he gets hurt.

If Bobby V were managing the Sox in 2004, he'd have had Gabe Kapler pitching at the end of the game four instead of Leskanic.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

A-Gon: 0-8, 8 men LOB. That strike-out in the 17th on three sub-85mph pitches is one of the more embarrassing things I've ever seen a professional baseball player do. And he's not just any professional baseball player. He's supposedly one of the 10 best hitters in baseball, I'd say. WTF? At some point, the players have to perform. They went nine innings without scoring a run against the Orioles bullpen. They're good, but they're not that good.

That said, running McDonald out there was shocking, both in the moment and after the fact with the benefit of a little time to consider. Atchison had thrown 23 pitches. Yes, he's been overworked, but you've got to throw him out there again for another inning. I don't know how that Davis guy was so good, but you've got to play the odds that your professional pitcher will outduel their first baseman. You've got to.

Bobby V after the game as pathetic, too. Snippy with the media doesn't cut it when you've just shit the bed so terribly. Take it like a man and answer the questions - they were lobbing up softballs and you wouldn't even deign to sing McDonald's praises for taking one for the team. Fuck you.

[rembrat]

It really makes me wonder about the interview process that took place in December or if there even was one. Did LL just show up and hand Valentine the keys?

Valentine is managing and using his roster like he fell on his head. Repeatedly.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Thanks for the info, I hadn't realized Miller pitched today, not sure how I missed that although I was on the road most of the day. So not quite as easy, indeed.

Still, have to pitch Dubront and figure out a move tomorrow. We appear to be in agreement there.

Another, perhaps better option would be to try to get an inning or even two out of Bard, who doesn't pitch until Tuesday. You could even push his start back a day and throw Miller out there in his place. Miller threw only 17 pitches today, fewest of any of the Red Sox 9 count 'em 9 pitchers today. He could probably get you five innings the day after tomorrow.

I've been a BV defender for the most part, mainly because I've felt much of the vitriol toward him has been way over the top. But I gotta admit, I'm wondering lately if he's up for this.

On the other hand, do we really believe the Bogar era would be any better?

And of course, we're not even having this discussion today if Buchholz doesn't stink out the joint for the sixth straight time -- out of six! He hasn't allowed fewer than five earned runs in any start yet this year. I'd almost rather have Lackey out there. Almost.

[LeoCarrillo]

A-Gon: 0-8, 8 men LOB. That strike-out in the 17th on three sub-85mph pitches is one of the more embarrassing things I've ever seen a professional baseball player do. And he's not just any professional baseball player. He's supposedly one of the 10 best hitters in baseball, I'd say. WTF? At some point, the players have to perform.

A caveat that I certainly agree with the idea that so much of this is on the players, especially the starting pitchers.

But I wonder if an 0 for 8 for Adrian Gonzalez is a red flag. O for f'ing 8. Could this be an indication of the toxicity in Valentine's clubhouse? I mean, you've probably got the two biggest team leaders, Pedey and Papi, not backing the guy because they're Tito people. Maybe he is "one sour dude," because, in fact, the scene's so rancid any sensible guy would take that attitude? Which, in any case, is on V.

I'm just stunned by 0 for 8. It's too askew. Makes me think of an A-average kid suddenly failing English class. Gotta look at the teacher.

[941827]

Another, perhaps better option would be to try to get an inning or even two out of Bard, who doesn't pitch until Tuesday. You could even push his start back a day and throw Miller out there in his place. Miller threw only 17 pitches today, fewest of any of the Red Sox 9 count 'em 9 pitchers today. He could probably get you five innings the day after tomorrow.

Would today have been a "throw day" for Bard? I assume they could not have a pitcher who threw earlier in the day try to warm back up and pitch, so if Bard threw on the side before the game, he probably couldn't have pitched today.

I assume that BV is able to communicate with Ben during the game. Ben may have told BV that he'd rather punt this game than risk injury by having a starter hurriedly warm up. Mortensen may have told BV he couldn't pitch today. Atchison may have admitted he was out of gas after his last inning. This decision is only a horrifically stupid decision by BV if we're sure that no other options were available.

Edit:

I'm just stunned by 0 for 8. It's too askew. Makes me think of an A-average kid suddenly failing English class. Gotta look at the teacher.

By this logic, Scioscia should've been fired for Pujols's start.

OK, I'm done defending BV.

Edited by 941827, 06 May 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[No Guru No Method]

A caveat that I certainly agree with the idea that so much of this is on the players, especially the starting pitchers.

But I wonder if an 0 for 8 for Adrian Gonzalez is a red flag. O for f'ing 8. Could this be an indication of the toxicity in Valentine's clubhouse? I mean, you've probably got the two biggest team leaders, Pedey and Papi, not backing the guy because they're Tito people. Maybe he is "one sour dude," because, in fact, the scene's so rancid any sensible guy would take that attitude? Which, in any case, is on V.

I'm just stunned by 0 for 8. It's too askew. Makes me think of an A-average kid suddenly failing English class. Gotta look at the teacher.

Really 0-8 ? Just cause it happened in one game ? Everybody goes 0-8. Do you think the Babe, Hank Aaron, Rogers Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Yaz were "askew" just because they were 0-8 ?

[DukeSox]

I have never had such little faith in the head coach of a team I root for.

Or the management that made the head coach decision...

[LeoCarrillo]

Really 0-8 ? Just cause it happened in one game ? Everybody goes 0-8. Do you think the Babe, Hank Aaron, Rogers Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Yaz were "askew" just because they were 0-8 ?

Fair enough. It was certainly not a scientific observation. I just don't see a lot of dugout camaraderie around V. (Admittedly, SSS on shots of the dugout from NESN cameras.) Would a young guy like Sveum be better? Bring a "let's build this" spirit to the dugout? I'd like to see it.

[OttoC]

Red Sox Batters went 5 for 25 with runners in scoring position in the three games with the Orioles. Is that Valentine's fault? Red Sox starters had an ERA of 10.41 in the three games. Is that Valentine's fault? In the latter case he does bear some responsibility because he let Cook stay in the game after a fairly serious knee injury.

But that aside, how come no one suggests that some of the pitching problems aren't related to the new pitching coach?

I also think that the owners bear some of the responsibility by allowing the off-season fiasco involving the firing of their long-time manager and almost simultaneously letting their GM out of his contract without having a back-up plan in place. Then a good part of the off-season was squandered in arguing about compensation for Epstein. Instead of using the off-season as a time to glue the team back together and replacing broken parts, they wasted it.

[LeoCarrillo]

Point taken, NGNM. Just for amusement though, run these at-bats through your mind:

Babe, Hank Aaron, Rogers Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Yaz

... taking cuts against Orioles 1B Chris Davis on the mound.

[dynomite]

Bobby had the following options in the 16th inning:

1. Have Atchison pitch another inning. Atchison had pitched 3 innings today and 6 in the last two. Continuing to pitch him risks injury to one of the team's best relievers.
2. Pitch Mortensen, who had thrown 3 innings yesterday and 6 in the last five. Pitching him risks injury to a fungible reliever.
3. Pitch Felix Doubront. Having Felix pitch would probably necessitate Daisuke's activation for tomorrow's game, and another mystery man's addition to piggyback off Daisuke's 3-5 innings. Or rather, you could have Felix pitch on back-to-back days and risk injury to a pretty important young pitcher.
4. Pray for your offense to score a run off a DH, and if not, that your OF can match said DH in a fielder's duel.

I think you need to add:

5. Pitch Bard for an inning.

Edit: I see others noticed this as well.

Would today have been a "throw day" for Bard? I assume they could not have a pitcher who threw earlier in the day try to warm back up and pitch, so if Bard threw on the side before the game, he probably couldn't have pitched today.

This is the real question, and I guess we should give Bobby the benefit of the doubt here.

Edited by dynomite, 06 May 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[ichirob4ichiro]

We're debating the decision Valentine made in the top of the 17th inning. Once again, that means the manager is getting grilled for something that happened long after the point at which any group of professional hitters would have ended the game, against the Orioles first baseman, who was pitching the bottom of the 16th. Jerry Royster should be drawn and quartered for sending Byrd home. They should cut Saltalamacchia for whiffing. They should make Gonzalez play the rest of the week in a dress. Middlebrooks also deserves to be demoted, because he apparently can't be bothered to run hard on a ball down the line.

I don't understand those who think that just becuase the offense could have won the game earlier, then that must be the main reason for the loss. Of course the big bats coming up (relatively) silent the first 16 innings led to the loss, but there was a chance that a simple managing decision could have WON this game in the 17th. Which one is more surprising or egregious?

[Harry Hooper]

In his post-game press conference, Bobby said it was Lester's turn to throw between starts. He said Jon had done so before the game.

[dynomite]

In his post-game press conference, Bobby said it was Lester's turn to throw between starts. He said Jon had done so before the game.

Then Bard threw yesterday? Would make sense to do it in the middle of his 5 days off.

[Rasputin]

I have never had such little faith in the head coach of a team I root for. Every game I wonder what ridiculous move or decision he's going to make. I've never seen anything like this. It's incredible how the organization went from being one of the smartest from top to bottom to one of the dumbest in such a short amount of time. It has really sapped my interest in this team and this season.

Oh bullshit. You were around for Gump and Gump II weren't you? They were worse, stupider, and at times perhaps on purpose.

[ngruz25]

I don't understand those who think that just becuase the offense could have won the game earlier, then that must be the main reason for the loss. Of course the big bats coming up (relatively) silent the first 16 innings led to the loss, but there was a chance that a simple managing decision could have WON this game in the 17th. Which one is more surprising or egregious?

Given that the Sox did not score in their half of the 17th, I don't think any decision Bobby could have made would have won the game in the 17th. Perhaps the 18th would have been the inning that the Sox solved Chris Davis.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Oh bullshit. You were around for Gump and Gump II weren't you? They were worse, stupider, and at times perhaps on purpose.

Yes, and this is what alway bothered me about the over-the-top animosity toward Bobby V. Seriously, people have "never seen anything like this"? With one or two partial exceptions, every Red Sox manager of my lifetime has been like this. Worse, in fact. Hell, Darrell Johnson brought in a nondescript rookie to pitch the 9th inning of the 7th game of the World Freakin' Series, fercripessakes! Even if you're too young to remember it, surely all Red Sox fans know how that turned out. Or does the name Don Zimmer ring a bell for anyone?

Of course, Grady Little we all know about. Jimy Williams tanked an entire season because he was feuding with his GM. That was afterthe time he got so badly outfoxed by Joe Torre that he ended up with Damon Buford as his only available option to hit against Mariano Rivera with runners on first and third down by one run in the 9th inning of an ALCS game.

If there ever was a "curse" on the red Sox it was the curse of terrible managers. Before my time, but the Red Sox could have reached and very likely won a World Series in 1948 if not for a managerial blunder -- not to mention '75, '86 and 2003.

Edited by Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, 07 May 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[reggiecleveland]

You know what I hate. When a decision is discussed and people defend the course of action, not on its merits but on other failures that could have made the decision unnecessary. The fact most of the guys, Gonzales in particular, didn't hit have nothing to do with the decision to pitch Darnell. The situation arose and a decision needed to be made. Bobby got cute and fucked away a game.

Sure if France had put their tanks in armored divisions on the Belgian border and attacked, Churchill never would have had to decide if he was going to make peace with Hitler, or convince the UK to stand alone. But they fucking didn't. They spread them thin all over the fucking place and then abandoned them. So Winston had a tough fucking call to make.

Edited by reggiecleveland, 07 May 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[JayMags71]

Put another way: the line-up is hitting like the losers of a cripple fight *AND* Bobby V is managing like he has diarrhea-soaked coffee grounds in a paper bag in his cranium instead of a brain. It's not an either/or situation.

Jesus Christ, people; it's not that tough

[No Guru No Method]

Point taken, NGNM. Just for amusement though, run these at-bats through your mind:

Babe, Hank Aaron, Rogers Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Yaz

... taking cuts against Orioles 1B Chris Davis on the mound.

That's a totally different point than your first one. One AB against a position player ? Anything can happen.

[LeoCarrillo]

That's a totally different point than your first one. One AB against a position player ? Anything can happen.

Agreed. One at-bat means nothing. That post was meant to amuse.

And I respect that fans are reactionary and that metrics exist to best predict season-long production. I'm sorry, though. I've played sports a little. And I've watched sports a lot. And a guy of Gonzo's talent going 0 for 8 makes me wonder. Is there encouragement? Is there cohesion? Is it loose? Is he trying too hard? Does he hate everyone in the dugout?

I know the kneejerk is, "Tough crap, produce! We pay you $200 million!"

But if the clubhouse is rancid, and like I threw out earlier maybe even Pedey's throwing a 'tude because Tito's gone, there could be a vaccuum of leadership. No fun. I don't know, man. But Gonzo just went 0 for 8. How does that happen? Maybe partly a shit environment? Athletes can throw it into neutral. It happens.

[941827]

From Edes' article:

But come the 17th, Valentine had no one left.Clayton Mortensen had thrown 3 1/3 innings on Saturday. He wasn't coming in. Jon Lester, who was starting Wednesday, had already thrown his between-starts bullpen. Valentine wasn't going to mess with Felix Doubront and Daniel Bard, who are pitching in that order the next two nights in Kansas City, for essentially the same reason Showalter cited for not using one of his starters. It wasn't worth the "disarray."

http://espn.go.com/b...bterranean-lows

Seems like he felt that he didn't have any choice but to bring in a position player to pitch. Whether you think that was reasonable or not probably depends on how you feel about how much "disarray" using Bard really would have caused.

[In my lifetime]

Of course, the real issue in this game is playing a 17 inning game after your starter can't make it through the 4th inning.

[geoduck no quahog]

The Red Sox at home should have won that game if only by virtue of having the last at-bat. Pathetic.

Edited by geoduck no quahog, 07 May 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Eric Van]

Apologies if this has been mentioned, but I was frankly surprised that they didn't option Mortensen and recall Melancon after Saturday's game. I guess they thought that adding Miller to the pen was enough ... but what's the downside of that move, given how well Melancon has been pitching and the inevitably of giving him another chance in MLB, and how much better than Mortensen he was projected to be, and that we're talking about the 12th man in the pen anyway?

And the irony, of course, is that they'll probably make that move today (unless they opt for Ohlendorf, who has had 4 days rest, and make an offsetting 40-man move).

[Philip Jeff Frye]

You know what I hate. When a decision is discussed and people defend the course of action, not on its merits but on other failures that could have made the decision unnecessary. The fact most of the guys, Gonzales in particular, didn't hit have nothing to do with the decision to pitch Darnell. The situation arose and a decision needed to be made. Bobby got cute and fucked away a game.

Sure if France had put their tanks in armored divisions on the Belgian border and attacked, Churchill never would have had to decide if he was going to make peace with Hitler, or convince the UK to stand alone. But they fucking didn't. They spread them thin all over the fucking place and then abandoned them. So Winston had a tough fucking call to make.

Its not as if this team has shown it has the margin of error to overcome Bobby's brain cramps so far this season. Sure the pitching has sucked and the offense has been annoyingly inconsistent, but those are all the more reasons we need a manager who doesn't contribute to losses through dumb decisions.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

From Edes' article:



http://espn.go.com/b...bterranean-lows

Seems like he felt that he didn't have any choice but to bring in a position player to pitch. Whether you think that was reasonable or not probably depends on how you feel about how much "disarray" using Bard really would have caused.

Of course, Showalter has the great advantage of having a team that's off to a great start, so it really wasn't worth the disarray for him.

The Sox are in a horrible tailspin and needed a win yesterday very, very badly. So it probably was worth the disarray to pitch one of the upcoming starters late in the game to ensure a win and at least put a band aid on the gunshot wound that is this season.

Net net, Valentine screwed up. Can't use DMac to pitch once Davis is pitching for the O's. Use a real pitcher, win the goddamn game and figure things out for KC afterwards.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Red Sox Batters went 5 for 25 with runners in scoring position in the three games with the Orioles. Is that Valentine's fault? Red Sox starters had an ERA of 10.41 in the three games. Is that Valentine's fault? In the latter case he does bear some responsibility because he let Cook stay in the game after a fairly serious knee injury.

But that aside, how come no one suggests that some of the pitching problems aren't related to the new pitching coach?

I also think that the owners bear some of the responsibility by allowing the off-season fiasco involving the firing of their long-time manager and almost simultaneously letting their GM out of his contract without having a back-up plan in place. Then a good part of the off-season was squandered in arguing about compensation for Epstein. Instead of using the off-season as a time to glue the team back together and replacing broken parts, they wasted it.

Thank you.

Speaking of McClure, we've got a pitching coach who's best known for running terrible staffs in KC and contributing to the shredding of Gil Meche's arm and ending his career out there. Posnanski killed about a hundred tress writing about that fiasco. After ownership neutered Cherington by publicly nixing his first choice for manager, the team had to press reset on that whole process to hire Valentine, at which point most of the more palatable coaching options weren't available. So we got a KC reject who's first trick here in Boston was to tinker with Buchholz. We're seen the results of that.

The baseball staff has been singularly unimpressive this season. At this rate I fully expect Royster to send Pedroia home to get thrown out by 35 feet and break his leg in the process.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Valentine was right. Screwing up the rotation for the next series was too high a price to pay for winning one game. Yeah, it was the final game of a three-game sweep, but it's going to show up exactly the same as any other win or loss come the end of the year. The manager is paid to keep his eye on the bottom line, not to lower the fans' day-to-day blood pressure. Throwing Doubront or Bard in there would have been a panic move. We may feel like it's time to panic, but the manager should never feel that way.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Valentine was right. Screwing up the rotation for the next series was too high a price to pay for winning one game. Yeah, it was the final game of a three-game sweep, but it's going to show up exactly the same as any other win or loss come the end of the year. The manager is paid to keep his eye on the bottom line, not to lower the fans' day-to-day blood pressure. Throwing Doubront or Bard in there would have been a panic move. We may feel like it's time to panic, but the manager should never feel that way.

Well, that's an interesting question. Should the manager never feel that way? Obviously "panic" is a negatively loaded word, but put it this way: if you are stuck in a "rut," that is, a pattern of behavor that clearly is not working for you, doesn't there come a point when you need to break that pattern?

That is, at some point, don't you need to try something different, unusual, outrageous, creative, whatever -- to at least attempt to snap the destructive pattern and allow a new, more successful pattern to take shape?

If you agree that there does come a point where bad patterns need to be broken, it seeme to me that a six-hour, 17 inning game following a four-game losing streak for an overall losing team would be a good time to break it.

Edited by Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, 07 May 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[bosockboy]

I'm not sure Valentine's up for this now either and I'm gravely concerned after yesterday's decision. Yet, while its easier to attack him, its like complaining about a broken hood ornament when you have a blown transmission. The roster is a mess, Buchholz is awful and we are using dreck like Padilla, Cook, Miller and others because the system isn't producing young pitching from within.

[glennhoffmania]

Put another way: the line-up is hitting like the losers of a cripple fight *AND* Bobby V is managing like he has diarrhea-soaked coffee grounds in a paper bag in his cranium instead of a brain. It's not an either/or situation.

Jesus Christ, people; it's not that tough

Exactly. The tangents people are going off on in this thread are frustrating. This is the manager's thread. How shitty Gonzalez has been can be discussed in a Gonzalez thread, unless people think his shittiness is due to the manager. Of course Bobby isn't the only reason this team sucks right now. That's why there are several negative threads in this forum.

[Plympton91]

I'm not sure Valentine's up for this now either and I'm gravely concerned after yesterday's decision. Yet, while its easier to attack him, its like complaining about a broken hood ornament when you have a blown transmission. The roster is a mess, Buchholz is awful and we are using dreck like Padilla, Cook, Miller and others because the system isn't producing young pitching from within.

Yup, I'd have preferred they go to Doubront or Bard, too. But, in the grand scheme of things Valentine's decision to use McDonald in the 17th inning gets about 1% of the blame for the loss; much less blame than Royster's decision to get Byrd thrown out at the plate with a first baseman on the mound, much less blame than Buchholz, much less blame than Gonzalez, much less blame than Saltalamacchia leading off the 16th hacking at everything, I'm sure if I'd watched more than half the game I could list others.

Valentine is not the worst manager the Red Sox have had in my lifetime, he's probably not even in the bottom half. With the current healthy roster, this might be, however, the worst team the Red Sox have fielded since 1997.

Edited by Plympton91, 07 May 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Reverend]

I'm not sure Valentine's up for this now either and I'm gravely concerned after yesterday's decision. Yet, while its easier to attack him, its like complaining about a broken hood ornament when you have a blown transmission. The roster is a mess, Buchholz is awful and we are using dreck like Padilla, Cook, Miller and others because the system isn't producing young pitching from within.

And we have threads about all those other things too. This thread, however, is to discuss what the manager does--and for what it's worth, beyond the fates of this particular team, I think a lot of us feel like we can learn about baseball by thinking about what the manager has to think about. And, obviously, he's involved in the games, so it's part of assessing what happens in the games. And so we have this thread to discuss it.

Seems reasonable to me.

[Stitch01]

Agreed. One at-bat means nothing. That post was meant to amuse.

And I respect that fans are reactionary and that metrics exist to best predict season-long production. I'm sorry, though. I've played sports a little. And I've watched sports a lot. And a guy of Gonzo's talent going 0 for 8 makes me wonder. Is there encouragement? Is there cohesion? Is it loose? Is he trying too hard? Does he hate everyone in the dugout?

I know the kneejerk is, "Tough crap, produce! We pay you $200 million!"

But if the clubhouse is rancid, and like I threw out earlier maybe even Pedey's throwing a 'tude because Tito's gone, there could be a vaccuum of leadership. No fun. I don't know, man. But Gonzo just went 0 for 8. How does that happen? Maybe partly a shit environment? Athletes can throw it into neutral. It happens.

8 at bat hitless streaks only happen to about 100% of major leaguers, so I see why this is cause for concern.

[trekfan55]

Valentine was right. Screwing up the rotation for the next series was too high a price to pay for winning one game. Yeah, it was the final game of a three-game sweep, but it's going to show up exactly the same as any other win or loss come the end of the year. The manager is paid to keep his eye on the bottom line, not to lower the fans' day-to-day blood pressure. Throwing Doubront or Bard in there would have been a panic move. We may feel like it's time to panic, but the manager should never feel that way.

The funny thing about this quote is that this very board was nearly asking for Tito's head many times when he did not do a certain move to "win the game right now" because he was thinking 2-3 games ahead, or for the entire season.

When the Sox have to skip one more start next week, having no day off for the next 17, and with their sixth starter (however ineffective) out because he went all in to win yesterday, we have a few more pages in this thread, I would guess.

We can disagree with Bobby's thinking, but this was a baseball decision that he felt he had to make, and I cannot really call it wrong. Hitting Punto leadoff on Saturday is wrong (even if he had gone 5-5 witth 2 grand slams).