730 replies to this topic

[rembrat]

Seriously, we are complaining about a PH appearance on the late innings of a blowout now? More bitching about Punto, who is averaging a plate appearance a game? Aviles, with just an 828 OPS vs righties shouldn't be batting lead off vs RH? We get that you hate the manager, but you're reaching.

I really don't think it is. How many times does Farrell PH some scrub for Jose Bautista or Wash with Hamilton and so on. It actually felt like he was doing Ventura a favor, sort of a gentlemanly baseball thing. And noting that Aviles' slash stats are starting to normalize vs RHP isn't main board material? Well, jesus fuck, lets just shut up and only post about things when they happen.

[ngruz25]

I really don't think it is. How many times does Farrell PH some scrub for Jose Bautista or Wash with Hamilton and so on.

Probably way more often than you think, because it never matters.

Random example from Jose Bautista's game logs last year: June 12 vs. Boston Red Sox. In the 7th inning of a 12-1 ballgame, with runners on first and second and one out Mike Cameron pinch hits for Adrian Gonzalez. Top of the 8th inning, somebody named Mike McCoy subs in for Jose Bautista.

Random example from Josh Hamilton's game logs last year: June 3 vs. Cleveland Indians. In the 8th inning of a 10-1 ballgame, with a runner on second and no outs Craig Gentry pinch hit for Josh Hamilton.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Seriously, we are complaining about a PH appearance on the late innings of a blowout now? More bitching about Punto, who is averaging a plate appearance a game? Aviles, with just an 828 OPS vs righties shouldn't be batting lead off vs RH? We get that you hate the manager, but you're reaching.

Plugging Lars as a defensive replacement for Gonzalez doesn't make much sense, but I can let it go in the bottom of the ninth on a cold night and in a blowout. It makes sense to give AG's legs a breather after stretching for some really poor throws over the previous eight.

There may be good reasons BobbyV pinch-hit Punto for Ortiz, but no one here is aware of any. Without our knowing any mitigating factors, BobbyV simply arbitrarily took the bat out of the hands of the hottest hitter in the AL in this young season and gave it to Nick Punto instead. That move makes no sense to me.

Also, without our knowing any mitigating factors, BobbyV gave the ball to Albers in the 8th inning, rather than to a warmed-up Rich Hill. The batters due up were Dunn (career .917 OPS vs RHP, .784 OPS vs LHP), Konerko (.840 vs RHP, .919 vs LHP), and Pierzynski (.770 vs RHP, .674 vs LHP). That move also makes no sense to me.

.......

If BobbyV really wanted to get Nick into the game, why have him bat for Ortiz rather than for Youkilis one batter before, who at least is nursing an injury and has already made a throwing error? If BobbyV really wants to use Albers, why not bring him in for the 9th, when the next four batters due up are all right-handed?

Again, there was no harm done tonight, so folks justifiably can say this is useless hand-wringing.

But neither of his eighth-inning moves makes any sense except if (a) there are two separate, unknown mitigating factors to lead BobbyV to those decisions rather than the more sensible ones, or (b) BobbyV is feeling fat and happy with a big lead, and sees no reason not to light up the victory cigar when the fourth quarter has just begun.

From what little I have seen of BobbyV, I do not believe (a) is likely. And that leaves (b) as the option -- which does nothing to ease my overall concerns after watching earlier, similar, but more costly miscalculations.

[edit: grammar and a little tweaking of content]

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 28 April 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[rembrat]

Probably way more often than you think, because it never matters.

Random example from Jose Bautista's game logs last year: June 12 vs. Boston Red Sox. In the 7th inning of a 12-1 ballgame, with runners on first and second and one out Mike Cameron pinch hits for Adrian Gonzalez. Top of the 8th inning, somebody named Mike McCoy subs in for Jose Bautista.

Random example from Josh Hamilton's game logs last year: June 3 vs. Cleveland Indians. In the 8th inning of a 10-1 ballgame, with a runner on second and no outs Craig Gentry pinch hit for Josh Hamilton.

Mike in for Adrian in a 12-1 game is Tito waving the white flag. McCoy in for Bautista is a defensive sub not exactly the same scenario as last night. And neither is the Hamilton example.

The bullpen has been incredibly volatile since the start of the season. They allowed 7 runs in back to back innings 6 days ago. The game is 9-3 and you have Ortiz w/ men on 1st and 2nd with a shot to really put this game away and you PH Nick Punto? Why? Nick Punto didn't even get into the game, he stayed the DH.

[ngruz25]

I'm guessing because it was freezing cold and he didn't want his best hitter pulling a muscle for no reason. I know the bullpen has been terrible, but the win expectancy at the time was 100%. Punto's at-bat was worth -.001 in WPA. The likelihood that the Sox would need Ortiz's bat again was really, really low. In that context, I'm fine with Ortiz being PH for.

I'd say the likelihood of Ortiz hurting himself swinging the bat (in his last at-bat Ortiz took a huge hack at a fastball and whiffed badly) is about the same as the likelihood of Ortiz getting another meaningful PA.

[Plympton91]

Also, without our knowing any mitigating factors, BobbyV gave the ball to Albers in the 8th inning, rather than to a warmed-up Rich Hill. The batters due up were Dunn (career .917 OPS vs RHP, .784 OPS vs LHP), Konerko (.840 vs RHP, .919 vs LHP), and Pierzynski (.770 vs RHP, .674 vs LHP). That move also makes no sense to me.

Hill had pitched back-to-back games on Tue and Wed, so another day off doesn't hurt. Plus, I would hope that they don't want him to do b-t-b very often, particularly when it is not necessary and when it is 40 degrees. So, it seems very reasonable to me to not use Hill once they tacked on a couple more insurance runs.

I was thinking the same thing about using Punto for Youk if the idea was to get Punto in a game. That's why I wonder if there's something we don't know about Ortiz. Maybe its just paranoia, but I did think I saw a small hitch in his gait last night.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I'm guessing because it was freezing cold and he didn't want his best hitter pulling a muscle for no reason. I know the bullpen has been terrible, but the win expectancy at the time was 100%. Punto's at-bat was worth -.001 in WPA. The likelihood that the Sox would need Ortiz's bat again was really, really low. In that context, I'm fine with Ortiz being PH for.

I'd say the likelihood of Ortiz hurting himself swinging the bat (in his last at-bat Ortiz took a huge hack at a fastball and whiffed badly) is about the same as the likelihood of Ortiz getting another meaningful PA.

I agree that maybe the weather had something to do with things, but we just don't know.
Maybe BobbyV is setting up a full bullpen for the next two days, but we just don't know.
Maybe Ortiz tweaked a hammy or something while killing XBH, but we just don't know.

None of this mattered over the course of last night's game. It was 100% win-expectancy by the eighth, after all.

But it was also 100% win-expectancy by the top of the seventh last Saturday, and 100% playoff expectancy by September 1st of last season.

----

Was there anything in the post-game press conference about these decisions to add to what we know? Because if not, I'm still worried it's Gump 2.0 here.

[Rudy Pemberton]

If Ortiz got hurt batting in that situation, what would the reaction be? What if Hill was unavailable today because he pitched yesterday? I can't imagine anyone asked Valentine why he PH for Ortiz in a blowout game, because everyone does it.

[MalzoneExpress]

Speaking of Ventura, I can only imagine the shitstorm this thread would be today if Valentine had left a tired, struggling lefthanded starter in the game to face Darnell McDonald with the bases loaded and the score tied in the 6th, and then let him face Byrd as well.

You are probably right that Bobby V would have gotten grief, but...

Danks had retired nine in a row entering the 6th inning and had thrown only 63(?) pitched through 5. He was cruising. By the time it became apparent he was "struggling", Ventura didn't have sufficient time to get someone warm on a cold April night in Chicago before McDonald or Byrd. And Ventura couldn't rely on his vast minor and major league managerial experience to anticipate the impending meltdown and get someone up sooner. Ventura gets a pass from me, this time.

[lexrageorge]

I don't know, but I'd much rather use 2 innings of Albers in a blowout than put out a fresh-off-TJS Hill out for 2 meaningless innings on a 40 degree night. Complaining about late inning moves in a blowout is absurd.

[TheoShmeo]

Anyone else a bit concerned about what we might see out of Lester and Beckett the next time out after having pitched into the 120s in April?

[HriniakPosterChild]

Anyone else a bit concerned about what we might see out of Lester and Beckett the next time out after having pitched into the 120s in April?

The schedule is giving them a gift--there's an off-day on Thursday, May 3. If they didn't have that extra day of rest, I'd be more concerned.

[budcrew08]

The average pitch count for those guys is just over 100, so it seemed like it isn't out of the ordinary.

[Sprowl]

Bobby V used Atchison as a high-leverage ROOGy, and he performed as advertised. Bobby also rested Youks against Floyd, a RHP with great breaking stuff, which is a good move for Youk's health and value. Good calls both.

[kieckeredinthehead]

The average pitch count for those guys is just over 100, so it seemed like it isn't out of the ordinary.

The difference between 100 and 125 can't be over-stated. Beckett tied a career record for pitches today, and Lester's start yesterday was his 5th or 6th most pitches ever.

[rembrat]

Bobby V used Atchison as a high-leverage ROOGy, and he performed as advertised. Bobby also rested Youks against Floyd, a RHP with great breaking stuff, which is a good move for Youk's health and value. Good calls both.

Youk was in the lineup and was a late minute stratch due to lower back tightness.

[E5 Yaz]

Youk was in the lineup and was a late minute stratch due to lower back tightness.

Kevin Youkilis, who was a late scratch for Sunday's road trip finale against the White Sox at Chicago with a stiff lower back, told reporters after the game that he could have pinch hit in the 4-1 loss and thinks he'll be ready to play Monday at Fenway Park against the A's.

"I was just really tight today and it locked up and they decided to scratch me and use me later on in the game if they were going to use me," Youkilis said, according to WEEI.com. "As far as I was concerned, I was ready."

http://espn.go.com/b...nt-keep-him-out

[geoduck no quahog]

The difference between 100 and 125 can't be over-stated. Beckett tied a career record for pitches today, and Lester's start yesterday was his 5th or 6th most pitches ever.

I believe it can be overstated.

{pending the situation, the upcoming schedule, the pitcher's physical abilities and psyche - and any number of other reasons. What makes you think that every major league pitcher should have the same limits? Why not 81 pitches for all?}

Edit: So what's more important in a pitch count?

1. Success against the previous batters?
2. Number of times through the lineup?
3. Fatigue (as measurable by #1)
4. Next scheduled start
5. Time of year?
6. Weather?
7. Score?
8. Quality of Pen?
9. All the above?

Seems like a lot of variables.

Edited by geoduck no quahog, 30 April 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[kieckeredinthehead]

I believe it can be overstated... Seems like a lot of variables.

There are a lot of variables. But for a manager who can't even keep the handedness of the opposing pitcher in his head, a simple metric for him to follow seems like a good idea, no? Like, say a big, round number? Assuming Bobby and McClure are keeping track of how many pitches their starters are throwing.

For about a decade, the consensus has been that 100-110 pitches should be the general safe target for starting pitchers, or 3 games / 330 pitches. Anything over that, and injury risk rises exponentially. Francona stuck to that religiously (see the Buchholz v. Indians game last spring when Clay was pulled at the 330 mark). Obviously, Nolan Ryan has decided pitch counts don't matter and let the Rangers starters run wild. If the Red Sox / Valentine have changed their approach because of a well thought out, data-driven decision, I'd love to know that. If he's abusing his starters because he's afraid of his pen, that would be good to know, too.

[Al Zarilla]

Bruce Bochy (and Dave Righetti) let Lincecum throw 121 pitches on Saturday night and 22 year old Madison Bumgarner 117 yesterday. I've seen them leave Lincecum in for ~ 130 a few times. Matt Cain same. I trust those guys as much as anybody with pitchers' arms. I mean, we won't ever see the 150 to 190 pitch or more games again, like Spahn, Marichal and all the old timers threw at times, but I think the magic number of 100, stretched to 110, is partially because we have 10 fingers and 10 toes and therefore a decimal system. If we had 12 of each, would the number be 144?

Another thing is that all pitches aren't created equal. Curves and sliders put a lot more torquing pressure on the elbow than fastballs.

It would be nice to have the luxury of always pulling starting pitchers at 100 - 110, but then that might lose some games, or screw up the bullpen, or make a bad one worse (hopefully Boston's is on the way to getting to at least average).

[budcrew08]

There's also a part about game situation. Look at Bard against the Rays. Bobby let him stay in despite his obvious tiredness because it was a big time in the game and the fact that you want to let the starter get out of the mess.

[glennhoffmania]

There's also a part about game situation. Look at Bard against the Rays. Bobby let him stay in despite his obvious tiredness because it was a big time in the game and the fact that you want to let the starter get out of the mess.

Why?

[lexrageorge]

There are a lot of variables. But for a manager who can't even keep the handedness of the opposing pitcher in his head, a simple metric for him to follow seems like a good idea, no? Like, say a big, round number? Assuming Bobby and McClure are keeping track of how many pitches their starters are throwing.

For about a decade, the consensus has been that 100-110 pitches should be the general safe target for starting pitchers, or 3 games / 330 pitches. Anything over that, and injury risk rises exponentially. Francona stuck to that religiously (see the Buchholz v. Indians game last spring when Clay was pulled at the 330 mark). Obviously, Nolan Ryan has decided pitch counts don't matter and let the Rangers starters run wild. If the Red Sox / Valentine have changed their approach because of a well thought out, data-driven decision, I'd love to know that. If he's abusing his starters because he's afraid of his pen, that would be good to know, too.

It seems ridiculous to assume that the coaches and manager are *not* keeping track of the number of pitches. We're jumping to a lot of conclusions based on a rather meaningless snafu that occurred at the start of a road trip. Bobby V even said that there is a upcoming day off and he's planning to give both Beckett and Lester the benefit of the extra day of rest. So it does appear he did think about the pitch count, the upcoming schedule, the game situation, etc. and did decide that an extra 10-15 pitches (which in Beckett's case was one batter) was a reasonable trade off.

[kieckeredinthehead]

Bruce Bochy (and Dave Righetti) let Lincecum throw 121 pitches on Saturday night and 22 year old Madison Bumgarner 117 yesterday. I've seen them leave Lincecum in for ~ 130 a few times. Matt Cain same. I trust those guys as much as anybody with pitchers' arms. I mean, we won't ever see the 150 to 190 pitch or more games again, like Spahn, Marichal and all the old timers threw at times, but I think the magic number of 100, stretched to 110, is partially because we have 10 fingers and 10 toes and therefore a decimal system. If we had 12 of each, would the number be 144?

I'm not sure Lincecum is the picture of perfect health these days. I also think that even if 100 is arbitrary, it becomes a bit self-fulfilling: pitchers become physically and psychologically prepared to throw a certain number of pitches. I suspect pitchers could throw 144, if that became the expected norm - they'd dial down their velocity, probably take longer between each pitch, change their workout routine, etc. I assume that's the thinking behind Ryan's approach, and potentially the new approach for the Red Sox. The extra day Lester and Beckett have is a point well taken. I just think expecting starters to throw longer is a clear departure from the Tito era, and therefore worth noting. Looking at the Rays' approach (who I'd trust as much as the Giants, given their track record with pitchers' health AND clear dedication to data-driven decisions), they also let some of their starters air it out some of the time. Shields went over 120 five times last year, and seems to benefit from it.

[Al Zarilla]

I'm not sure Lincecum is the picture of perfect health these days.

If he weren't in good health, I don't think they leave him out there for 121 pitches.

So, everyone's eyes are on Beckett and Lester now for their next few starts? I'm guessing Valentine probably is more the old school type manager (Manuel, Bochy) that don't have a bell go off at or near 100 pitches.

[HriniakPosterChild]

Why?

Shows respect. It's one of those unwritten rules.

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

In Valentine's defense, in both games, the final batter faced by Lester (10) and then Beckett (13!) put up an insane AB - completely running the PC into unacceptable territory. I think once you let the SP start the AB you have to let him finish it

Edited by BCsMightyJoeYoung, 30 April 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Al Zarilla]

In Valentine's defense, in both games, the final batter faced by Lester (10) and then Beckett (13!) put up an insane AB - completely running the PC into unacceptable territory. I think once you let the SP start the AB you have to let him finish it

Aha, more information! Managers must start to sweat bullets when that happens.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Lester threw 130 pitches in the middle of May as a younger, less experienced pitcher with a pretty small track record of major league success. That, of course, was his no-hitter and he went on to have a great season. He was even better the two seasons after that.

I'm no Valentine fan, but I guess I just completely fail to understand the complaint about one start with a lot of pitches. At least wait until it becomes a recurring theme before worrying about it.

[Sprowl]

In Valentine's defense, in both games, the final batter faced by Lester (10) and then Beckett (13!) put up an insane AB - completely running the PC into unacceptable territory. I think once you let the SP start the AB you have to let him finish it

And also on the bright side, neither Lester nor Beckett appeared to be overthrowing during those epic at-bats. I would say they appeared to be throwing solid pitches with good location and movement, and showing none of the classical signs of being at the end of their tether (consistent arm slot, patience on the mound, no visible signs of frustration). Both are pitchers well into or past their physical primes, so they should be better able to tolerate occasional overwork with more rest to follow. I would not apply the same rule to Bard, Doubront and Buchholz, who are younger, frailer and easier to damage. Taking them out at 110 pitches or fewer is a more pressing concern than for Lester or Beckett.

[Al Zarilla]

Beckett got to 126 pitches in 6 2/3 with only 3 walks? Inefficient or what?

[joyofsox]

Valentine admitted today that he was kicking himself for not having a back-up plan if Bailey and/or Ellsbury went down.

"The outfield and the bullpen, I didn't have a major plan for not having Ellsbury -- my fault, and I should've. And not being too deep in the bullpen. The two guys we traded for during the winter time [Bailey and Mark Melancon], would be pitching in the ninth inning come April 13th.

Asked if he's had to adjust on the fly, Valentine replied, "Absolutely -- that's what I'm doing. And I think you have to have plans. I'm kicking myself a little that I didn't have a great plan. But it's coming to fruition now. On the fly, the plan seems to be working."

http://www.boston.co...22_pregame.html

Edited by joyofsox, 30 April 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Valentine admitted today that he was kicking himself for not having a back-up plan if Bailey and/or Ellsbury went down.

http://www.boston.co...22_pregame.html

Seems like he's being a little hard on himself there. That's a good thing! But really, how many teams have a "back up plan" for losing their MVP-caliber center fielder? What exactly is the back-up plan for that, other than, put someone else in center field? Isn't it more the GM who needs to have the back-up plan for injuries?

As for Bailey, Valentine clearly did have a back-up plan. In fact he may have had two. The first (if it existed), "move Bard into the closer role," was obviously a non-starer with the organization. The second -- well, we're seeing it. And it hit 98 mph on the gun the other day.

But it's good that Valentine sees the value of planning. I'm sure he did already. I think he's just doing his job and publicly assuming responsibility for the failures of the first 14 games, so the players don't have to.

[Frisbetarian]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could ask Bobby V what he was thinking? <shameless plug>

[Plympton91]

Seems like he's being a little hard on himself there. That's a good thing! But really, how many teams have a "back up plan" for losing their MVP-caliber center fielder? What exactly is the back-up plan for that, other than, put someone else in center field? Isn't it more the GM who needs to have the back-up plan for injuries?

Yeah, I'm thinking that's overcompensating a bit by Valentine. The manager's back-up plan is, "Put the next best option that the GM gave me into the position." In hindsight, despite two spectacular blow-ups, Aceves was the right choice as a back-up to Bailey and Morales seems to be the next best option for the 8th inning to Melancon. I'm not sure Repko was the right initial choice to fill in for Ellsbury, but now that Byrd is here that's a moot point.

[BCsMightyJoeYoung]

Yeah, I'm thinking that's overcompensating a bit by Valentine. The manager's back-up plan is, "Put the next best option that the GM gave me into the position." In hindsight, despite two spectacular blow-ups, Aceves was the right choice as a back-up to Bailey and Morales seems to be the next best option for the 8th inning to Melancon. I'm not sure Repko was the right initial choice to fill in for Ellsbury, but now that Byrd is here that's a moot point.

There was an interesting article on Valentine over on BP last week. The main feature one can take from it is Valentine's strong tendency to publicly question his own decision making process.

http://www.baseballp...articleid=16644

Which , of course, are seeing here ..

[Rudy Pemberton]

Another awful job leaving a starter in too long. Why let Buchholz walk two batters and leave him in for the inevitable homer which ruins his outing and makes the game a lot closer? Honestly, mind boggling. When Buchholz issues his first walk of the 7th, why not call it a night?

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

Another awful job leaving a starter in too long. Why let Buchholz walk two batters and leave him in for the inevitable homer which ruins his outing and makes the game a lot closer? Honestly, mind boggling. When Buchholz issues his first walk of the 7th, why not call it a night?

When he issued his first walk, Buchholz still was at a low pitch count, cruising, and up 10. Maybe someone should have started warming then, but little chance anyone would be warm.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Fair point, but I just don't understand why you'd let him face Reddick.

[Plympton91]

Fair point, but I just don't understand why you'd let him face Reddick.

Buchholz was basically snake-bit in that inning. The single up the middle to start the inning was a 10 hopper (seems like the placement of the defense is way worse than it was in the heyday of 2003-2008). He got squeezed on a strike three pitch that ended up being a walk a couple pitches later. The double play should have been called, because the runner was way out of the baseline. Crisp's hit was an inch out of Gonzalez's reach.

But, I agree that Reddick was the "too long" point. I wish he could have had Morales or Hill to pitch to Reddick. But, why use your set-up guy when you're up 8 runs and, again, they're probably very reluctant to use Hill on back-to-back days. My other question was why use Tazawa back-to-back days, either? Seems like they were looking to see how he'd respond, and get a better feel for how much help he'd be as a primary relief option?

I liked going to Padilla's experience in the bases loaded situtation, and not leaving in the kid who'd just been screwed by the error.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Another awful job leaving a starter in too long. Why let Buchholz walk two batters and leave him in for the inevitable homer which ruins his outing and makes the game a lot closer? Honestly, mind boggling. When Buchholz issues his first walk of the 7th, why not call it a night?

I don't mind BobbyV leaving Clay in to face Reddick -- what I mind is that a month into the season, BobbyV appears to have divided his current crop relievers into these two distinct sets:

{Aceves, Morales, Padilla, (Bard)} = must-win
{Albers, Hill, Tazawa, Atchison} = garbage-time

I get that most (if not all) managers build their bullpen roles somewhat similarly, but BobbyV's getting crazy with both the high number and random usage of his cleaning crew. He's reminding me a lot of Joe Torre, another one notorious for leaning too heavily on just a few guys entrusted with hi-leverage outs (Mendoza, Proctor, Quantrill, etc.), while basically picking names out of a hat for the middle innings.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

At what point did Valentine/McClure get a reliever warming up?

[lexrageorge]

I don't mind BobbyV leaving Clay in to face Reddick -- what I mind is that a month into the season, BobbyV appears to have divided his current crop relievers into these two distinct sets:

{Aceves, Morales, Padilla, (Bard)} = must-win
{Albers, Hill, Tazawa, Atchison} = garbage-time

I get that most (if not all) managers build their bullpen roles somewhat similarly, but BobbyV's getting crazy with both the high number and random usage of his cleaning crew. He's reminding me a lot of Joe Torre, another one notorious for leaning too heavily on just a few guys entrusted with hi-leverage outs (Mendoza, Proctor, Quantrill, etc.), while basically picking names out of a hat for the middle innings.

This is really the affect of 3 events: (a) the loss of Bailey the very last week of spring training; (b) the complete ineffectiveness of Melancon; and © new guys joining the team coming back from injury in Tazawa and Hill.

IMO, it makes perfect sense to use Tazawa and Hill mostly in garbage time situations at this point until they show what they've got pitching in the bigs. And it makes sense to be careful with Hill. The reality is that all the pitchers you mentioned have at times created a lot of unnecessary adventure in the later innings, regardless of the role, with only Aceves and Morales showing any level of consistency. The rest of the cast of clowns needs to show consistency first before they should be relied upon in the highest leverage of situations.

Buchholz's fault was walking 2 batters in his final inning; he shouldn't have been gassed with only 70-something pitches going into that inning. He did get BABIP'ed a bit that inning as well, but he needs to avoid walking so many guys, especially a weak-hitting lineup like the A's. I really can't blame Valentine for that.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

At what point did Valentine/McClure get a reliever warming up?

It wasn't a slow hook -- no action in the pen until Crisp's grounder glanced off AG's glove. But Tazawa had only one batter to get ready.

Before that, Buchholz got jobbed on three separate calls that could have gotten him out of the inning with no damage (balls & strikes to Barton and Weeks, interference on Barton). Before the seventh inning, he looked likely to go for the complete game.

[sachilles]

I would think it would be a little more normal to have some up and working in the 6th or 7th inning. Granted, his pitch count was relatively low to start the 7th, but i would think even with a pitcher cruising, you want to have at least one arm getting warm on a cool night.

[judyb]

That's what it's come to now, they have to get someone up in the pen, preferably from both sides, as soon as the starter's over 70 pitches with anything less than an 12 run lead in the 6th and 7th innings if the weather isn't perfect, against the worst offense in the league?

Edited by judyb, 01 May 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[twothousandone]

Jimy Williams would have one or two guys up at the start of the seventh. Some here remember Jimy's pitchng manuevers as I do -- he consistently got guys out of the game before it was a lost cause. It always seemed he had a knack for (at least) taking pitchers out, if not for bringing in the right guys.

But the unclear cost of that was a bullpen with a lot more innings pitched than the stats showed. Guys would warm up, but not come into the game. I can't remember what he did in blow-outs, but unless V wanted to see how a few guys looked on back-to-back days, Padilla, Albers and Morales were the right guys to get the call last night. Since Padilla may still be the "long" man, I think it would have been sensible to have him start warmng up in the seventh -- in case he was needed there, and then to come in during the eighth and/or ninth to finish the game. After what happened against the MFYs, I can't blame V for getting a second guy up, but using five relievers, including Aceves, seemed excessive.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

A starter at 72 pitches heading into the 7th isn't someone you expect is going to need a quick hook if things get dicey, whether we're talking Buchholz, Tommy Millone, or Roy Halladay. Definitely not a slow hook by any means. Weeks worked an eight pitch walk in which Buchholz got squeezed, so it's not as though it was clear Buchholz was losing his stuff even then (compared to, say, Bard walking Pena and Longoria on eight straight pitches on Patriots Day). Further, the pitch Reddick hit out wasn't exactly a meatball. It was in the middle of the plate, but it was nearly at his ankles. The kind of pitch that you're trying to get the guy to chase down 1-2, and the kind of pitch you expect to result in a topped groundball to the right side, not a home run. It was really a great piece of hitting by Reddick to keep his weight back and golf that thing into the bullpen.

[Laschelle Tarver]

That's what it's come to now, they have to get someone up in the pen, preferably from both sides, as soon as the starter's over 70 pitches with anything less than an 12 run lead in the 6th and 7th innings if the weather isn't perfect, against the worst offense in the league?

It's a legitimate point, but the reality right now is that Buchholz is still volatile as a starter, and the smart move would be to anticipate and be prepared for what could go wrong versus reacting to what is going wrong. IMHO, Tazawa was absolutely rushed into the game.

[tonyarmasjr]

I think there are two sides to the coin, here. McClure has mentioned his lack of stamina already a couple times this season. So, 1) Buchholz has sucked and they know he's not ready to be throwing 120 pitches like Lester and Beckett (though amazingly they've tried), so they should have had someone at least stirring when he gave up a single and a walk to start the 7th. Or at the very least, after he walked Weeks and got a visit paid to him, that would've been some time to get somebody going. 2) The only way to build stamina is to let him throw pitches and try to work out of it himself. He had a 10 run lead against the A's. Is there a better time to try to stretch him out? If the bullpen can't hold a 5 run lead for two innings, that's a bigger issue than whether Buch gives up a couple late runs trying to build himself up. You may as well try to let him get as many outs as he can if that's how you feel about the bullpen.
Me, I would've pulled him with the bases loaded. That way, regardless of what happens, he can feel good about the outing and have something to build on. He threw some good pitches and only allowed one run to score, while still getting into the 7th and 90+ pitches - his best start of the season. If the bullpen allows all those runners to score without getting an out, that's not really on Clay. If not, well, his start looks half decent.