50 replies to this topic

[86spike]

Who are the leaders of this clubhouse?

There's an interesting note in the game thread today about how none of Pedroia, Ortiz or Gonzalez talked to the press today after the epic meltdown and instead players like Salty and Aviles were left to take questions.

Is there a lack of leadership from within the 25 man roster? Pedroia seems like a natural leader, but I don't know if he is seizing that role. Ortiz seems like a natural leader, but he has demurred away from the role before. Gonzalez is one of our best players, but doesn't speak up, apparently. Ellsbury is a loner. Crawford was a leader in TB, but didn't step into the role last year, and is rehabbing away from the team this year. None of the pitchers seems capable of rallying and inspiring the team.

Yes, winning breeds good chemistry, but losing is when you need leaders to help motivate the break out.

[Seels]

I don't really know what guys who scored 9 runs are supposed to say in defense of this. How / why should Pedroia or Ortiz take the media after their pen just wet themselves? That's like asking Tom Brady about a game his team just gave up 500 yards in. Ortiz Pedroia and Gonzalez have done their parts, I can't really blame them if they don't know how or simply don't want to speak out for a club whose pitchers have a collective 6.1 era.

[SoxScout]

Well, when nobody stepped into that role last year when things were going to shit (famously, "I'm not here to be a babysitter" by Ortiz) and we kept the same exact roster besides swapping in and out a few role players, I don't know what you can expect.

Crawford was one of the guys who supposedly tried to speak up last year in September, this spring Gonzalez said now that he isn't stepping on toes he would have no problem saying what was need to be said.

Really, who knows what's going on in there. As of now it seems like they had a patient with cancer and instead of cutting it out they just went to a new, and worse, doctor.

Pedroia, as he hurriedly dressed and left:I have nothing for you guys

— Gordon Edes (@GordonEdes) April 22, 2012

David Ortiz, on his way out the door:"It's [expletiuve] embarrassing. Put it down like that."

— Gordon Edes (@GordonEdes) April 22, 2012

To be fair, these guys have seemingly talked a lot, if not all losses this year, and the one time they don't it starts a reporter bitchfest.

Edited by SoxScout, 21 April 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[mauidano]

Don't blame them. Time for talking is over. Put up or shut up. It's on these guys and they know it. If any of them had some large cajones they'd say the same thing. Accept the responsibility and take the heat off where the blame is being thrown....on their manager. It's theirs to wear.

[JBill]

Accept the responsibility and take the heat off where the blame is being thrown....on their manager. It's theirs to wear.

Take the heat off their manager? Pedroia threw his manager under the bus a week ago.

[Rudy Pemberton]

There's been rumors of a split, that there's the position players and the pitchers and the two dont mix. Not necessarily a problem, although the pen routinely blowing big leads doesn't help. I don't know what you do here. New GM, manager that isn't well liked, players that don't get along. Losing wont make it better. You either hope you start winning or start cleaning house. If the team disrespected Tito, and won't play hard for Valentine, you think they'll love the next guy?

What's our Jeremy Giambi for John Mabry deal?

[TheYellowDart5]

Take the heat off their manager? Pedroia threw his manager under the bus a week ago.

After that same manager threw Pedroia's teammate under the bus.

We can't know what it's like in the Red Sox clubhouse (and it sure seems like the Boston media has next to no clue), but what does it matter if this team has clubhouse leaders? They had two veteran respected leaders last season in Wakefield and Varitek, and look how far it got them.

This team won't get better because Pedroia or Ortiz or Gonzalez decide to start yelling about accountability or whatever. Are Pedroia's words suddenly going to make the relievers competent, or get Buchholz to stop giving up home runs, or magically turn Ross and McDonald into players who can actually hit RHP?

[The Gray Eagle]

Why is talking to the sportswriters considered "leadership"? Valentine talks enough to the sportswriters for any 5 players. There's no shortage of people talking to media blobs. That is like less than .0000001% of the problems this team has.

Talking to sportswriters is only called "leadership" by sportswriters who need a quote to fill some space for their reports and want to get back at players who won't give them one. "Oh he won't talk to me? After I bury him in the paper for not being a leader because he didn't talk to me, then next time maybe he will. Doesn't he know who I am?"

[E5 Yaz]

Why is talking to the sportswriters considered "leadership"? Valentine talks enough to the sportswriters for any 5 players. There's no shortage of people talking to media blobs. That is like less than .0000001% of the problems this team has.

Talking to sportswriters is only called "leadership" by sportswriters who need a quote to fill some space for their reports and want to get back at players who won't give them one. "Oh he won't talk to me? After I bury him in the paper for not being a leader because he didn't talk to me, then next time maybe he will. Doesn't he know who I am?"

The point here, I think, is that after a loss such as thing, the veteran leaders of the team left it to others to explain what happened.

It has nothing to do with talking to sportswriters; it has to do with accountability.

Now, whether this example is good or bad in this regard is up to personal interpretation. To me, it's overblown because of the circumstances and because those three in particular are usually always willing to talk; but I can see why others would want the de facto "leaders" to be available to answer for the bad days as well as in good times.

[triniSox]

Why is talking to the sportswriters considered "leadership"? Valentine talks enough to the sportswriters for any 5 players. There's no shortage of people talking to media blobs. That is like less than .0000001% of the problems this team has.

Talking to sportswriters is only called "leadership" by sportswriters who need a quote to fill some space for their reports and want to get back at players who won't give them one. "Oh he won't talk to me? After I bury him in the paper for not being a leader because he didn't talk to me, then next time maybe he will. Doesn't he know who I am?"

I agree. I don't give a crap who talks to the press after a bad loss. The media has managed to lionize talking to the press after a bad loss and demonize any unwillingness to do so. I care more about what they do and say in that clubhouse to their fellow players because those are real leadership situations. I'm supposed to care that Pedroia, who we all see give great effort on the field and lead by example, doesn't talk to the press after an embarrassing loss? Give me a break.

To me, it's at the point where I can't stand reporters whining about players not talking to them. They pretend like they're robbing their fans of so much by not giving them a daily quote. I can only speak for myself - I don't give a damn.

[Pumpsie]

I think Big Papi nailed it as he went out the door. Not much else to say. And it might have been better for him and the others to split rather than be caught having to explain how they view the pitching staff. Better not hang around and get goaded into saying that the pitching is letting down the team. I think everyone and his uncle knows this.

[Stu Nahan]

Ortiz is 17 for 32 on the home stand. What is there to say? The pitching is horrid. Nothing he, Pedroia or anyone else says is going to make things better.

[Mugsys Jock]

It's all the snitch's fault.

Signed,
JFB

[Hyde Park Factor]

This is a case where, as noted above, the bullpen wet itself. There isn't much to be said by anyone, really. If this had been a situation where it was a close game and one bad pitch or one bad hop made all the difference, Pedey (plus all the other guys) would absolutely have that guy's back. Much ado about nothing, thanks to the Boston media.

[86spike]

Alright, who cares about media availability after last night? Fine. Fuck the reporters.

Zoom out now and look at the big picture.

Are their any players on this team who will stand up and push their teammates to be better? If they aren't listening to the manager or the GM, who is at the wheel when it comes to motivation?

I, personally, expect someone to take on this role and rally his teammates to focus and believe in themselves and succeed.

Maybe Marlon Byrd is the that guy.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Ortiz is 17 for 32 on the home stand. What is there to say? The pitching is horrid. Nothing he, Pedroia or anyone else says is going to make things better.

Isn't this exactly the wrong attitude? It's a team game. Leaders can speak up and lead whether they went 4-4 or 0-4. Maybe it's happening in the clubhouse, or maybe it's not. You need to stick together, though, and when shit goes bad, it would be nice to see some accountability, anger, explanation and a demonstration that you're going to try to get better. With these guys, it's excuses, or nothing.

[jsinger121]

Pedroia is not much of a leader in my book after throwing Valentine under the bus regardless of what others think of him. Its time to grow up Pedroia. Your binky is not walking through that door anymore.

[geoduck no quahog]

How is anyone supposed to know what "leadership" is (or is not) present, unless we're part of that clubhouse...

Don't confuse media-savviness with leadership.

[Harry Agganis]

Talking to the press is not leadership. I don't need player interviews after a game like that. I would rather have heard some leadership from Cherington and Henry and the assistant GM after there big meeting. Something Like we are bringing up Cooke Bard is going to the pen and we are signing Oswald. So far the Bullpen is the most fixable part of this mess. In stead we get Bard is starting today and he is starting next time. We are going to ride with this pen. What kind of leadership is that?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

No need to question clubhouse leadership in general -- it's only the bullpen with no leadership.

The starters have Beckett and Lackey, the hitters have Pedroia and Ortiz. They might not be perfect leaders, but they lead.

The bullpen doesn't appear to have any such guy, regardless what role he pitches. Mike Timlin, where have you gone? Even the drum corps is silent.

[plusbrians]

I can't stand how so many jump the gun and assume lack of interviews equal poor leadership qualities. So what if they don't want to talk? If all they have are destructive things to say, wouldn't declining to talk make them a more "responsible leader"? No sense in stirring the pot or naming names etc. etc.

I actually saw Peter Abraham retweet a NY writer stating the "lack of leadership due to no interviews by Pedrioa/Ortiz/Gonzalez... My question was the same... It's all a fabrication based upon those media that don't get to do the interview. It's crap.. and I agree totally- none of us know crap about their leadership qualities having never dealt with them.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Who would lead the pen, though? It's a collection of has beens and never were's. No one's job in the pen is safe, almost none of them have any kind of sustained experience or success as big league relievers. None of them have been in Boston for more than a year. It's like a terrible reality show.

[bschase2]

Pedroia is not much of a leader in my book after throwing Valentine under the bus regardless of what others think of him. Its time to grow up Pedroia. Your binky is not walking through that door anymore.

This is unfair. In your work place, your boss helps you become the best at your job (literally, for Pedroia). He also happens to be your friend. He gets fired, and your new boss immediately calls out your colleague who has worked his ass off for years. You stand up for him. Most everyone sides with you, and not the new guy.

We shouldn't hold players to a higher standard than we hold everyone else. They work, as do we. We just get to say stuff to our family instead of the press.

[Dick Pole Upside]

I'm one of those people who don't believe that facing the music with the media demonstrates good/poor leadership one way or another.

I think (I don't know) there have been subtle visible signs that some of the guys are trying to maintain harmony and cohesion, and spur better performance. Ortiz lamented the fact that he disconnected last year. He's come back in better shape, is raking, has (literally) stood beside and behind BV on several occasions, and (I feel) is more engaged with supporting/leading/connecting with his teammates.

Gonzalez basically now has a pattern of not saying much on record, and as saying he'll do more to "say what needs to be said" behind the scenes. His public support for Aceves during Ace's first melt down in Detroit suggests he's doing more than he perhaps did last year.

I have no doubt that Pedroia is serving as a positive example in the clubhouse of how to go about business on the field. He's no magician with the media (e.g. his clumsy comments on L'Affair Youk-Valentine), but he's been acknowledged by his manager and fellow players (Ortiz) about being 'the best' player on the team.

After 2011, Lester was contrite and stated that he needed to connect better with the field players and show support... He has already been noticeable in the dugout in the early stages of the season. Hell, even Lackey has been around a lot for someone who is out for the year and getting pummeled in the court of public opinion.

Some of these visible signs may not meet everyone's "definition" of leadership (setting a vision for performance, identifying key goals for pitchers and field players, aligning around the behaviors that contribute to success and overcoming on-field and off-field obstacles, etc.), but there are players in 2012 who are behaving in different ways that at least on the surface suggest they're trying to pull the oars in the same direction.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Who would lead the pen, though? It's a collection of has beens and never were's. No one's job in the pen is safe, almost none of them have any kind of sustained experience or success as big league relievers. None of them have been in Boston for more than a year. It's like a terrible reality show.

Yep, I agree -- there's no one in the pen capable of doing that job, either.

Honestly, it might be the deciding factor for why, if I were Ben, I would probably end up bumping Bard for Cook rather than try out Buchholz there.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Pedroia is not much of a leader in my book after throwing Valentine under the bus regardless of what others think of him. Its time to grow up Pedroia. Your binky is not walking through that door anymore.

Or, since he was sticking up for a long time teammate that his new manager had thrown under the bus for seemingly no good reason at all, he was in fact displaying leadership.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And frankly, Ortiz summed it up best. Why does he need to say anymore than he did?

[Harry Hooper]

The media would whine and whine, but this team would be much better off if all the players followed a 15-hour moratorium on comments after gut-wrenching losses like yesterday.

[BigMike]

No need to question clubhouse leadership in general -- it's only the bullpen with no leadership.

The starters have Beckett and Lackey, the hitters have Pedroia and Ortiz. They might not be perfect leaders, but they lead.

The bullpen doesn't appear to have any such guy, regardless what role he pitches. Mike Timlin, where have you gone? Even the drum corps is silent.

I don't know that Lackey has ever been one of the leaders of the pitching staff, but I do think there is no doubt that Becket is there front and center as the leader of this staff.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I don't know that Lackey has ever been one of the leaders of the pitching staff, but I do think there is no doubt that Becket is there front and center as the leader of this staff.

From all the various comments about his being friends with the other pitchers, it's pretty clear that Lackey's a leader in the clubhouse -- but not in the media. Leading others to unacceptable behavior is still leading, after all.

I have little doubt that Lackey's the ringleader of the chicken-and-beer clique.

[Rooster Crows]

The bullpen doesn't appear to have any such guy, regardless what role he pitches. Mike Timlin, where have you gone? Even the drum corps is silent.

I thought his absence was notable last year, and continues this year. They were a disciplined team out there, while also staying loose and having fun. I remember, eg, seeing Oki banging on the roof as hard as anyone, and dancing on the parade truck with the rest of the guys, and last year he was suddenly so unhappy out there he wouldn't come up from the minors. Not the best example to be sure, but since he left, it seems to have deteriorated. Some is attributable to who is out there, but some IMO to lack of leadership and mismanagement, as has been noted elsewhere.

Edited by Rooster Crows, 22 April 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[Harry Hooper]

From all the various comments about his being friends with the other pitchers, it's pretty clear that Lackey's a leader in the clubhouse -- but not in the media. Leading others to unacceptable behavior is still leading, after all.

I have little doubt that Lackey's the ringleader of the chicken-and-beer clique.

The evidence to date indicates Lackey was decidedly NOT implicated in the chicken-and-beer clique -- that seems to be Beckett's initiative.

We all know about Lackey's poor performance on the mound, and his habit of moaning about errors behind him. Otherwise, however, from the players' perspective he fits the profile of a good teammate: 1) pitching despite injury and significant off-field concerns, 2) engaged in what's happening from the dugout when not pitching, and 3) very active in a fight when the benches empty.

Defending John Lackey, it makes one's skin crawl. .

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Not to legitimize a witch-hunt, but Hohler named Lackey in the original article -- as one of the three starters who made chicken-and-beer-and-videogames a clubhouse tradition.

Beckett and Lester had been on the team since 2006, and there were no rumors of such behavior until Lackey arrived.

Sources said Beckett, Lester, and Lackey, who were joined at times by Buchholz, began the practice late in 2010. The pitchers not only continued the routine this year, sources said, but they joined a number of teammates in cutting back on their exercise regimens despite appeals from the team’s strength and conditioning coach Dave Page.

edit: added quote

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 22 April 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Yaz4Ever]

Leadership is more about being there for your teammates and lighting a fire under their asses when necessary than it is talking to the media, especially some of our hacks. Yes, we've had outspoken leaders in the past who relished the media, but it's not a vital component, imho. Close ranks, solve the issues that are causing the suck of September and early 2012 as best you can in house, and start performing. Winning is a great elixir. Do it overtly or covertly, I don't care. Just step up and get it done. I don't care if it's someone obvious, like Pedroia, or someone you might not expect, like Punto. Ideally it would come from Bobby V, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

[Harry Hooper]

Not to legitimize a witch-hunt, but Hohler named Lackey in the original article -- as one of the three starters who made chicken-and-beer-and-videogames a clubhouse tradition.

Beckett and Lester had been on the team since 2006, and there were no rumors of such behavior until Lackey arrived.



edit: added quote

OK, I feel better -- burn Lackey!

[E5 Yaz]

OK, I feel better -- burn Lackey!

Or see if he floats

[jsinger121]

Or, since he was sticking up for a long time teammate that his new manager had thrown under the bus for seemingly no good reason at all, he was in fact displaying leadership.

Youkilis sucked all year from the start of spring training until now. That is good reason in my book to call someone out.

Edited by jsinger121, 22 April 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[mauidano]

Take the heat off their manager? Pedroia threw his manager under the bus a week ago.

An impulsive statement he made based on what the media fed him, literally. He backed down considerably post game.

[SoxScout]

Youkils sucked all year from the start of spring training until now. That is good reason in my book to call someone out.

Well, that shit did go down after 3 straight wins in which Youk had 4 hits and 3 walks.

[mauidano]

Youkils sucked all year from the start of spring training until now. That is good reason in my book to call someone out.

Agreed but Youk was "thrown under the bus" at all. Bobby made a statement that was more than likely factual to some degree. It was taken out of context form the whole statement and as the local media is known to do, THEY blew it up. THEY dangled in front of Pedey who was unsuspectingly unaware. That being said; how's Youk doing? He stinks. And you want to hold him in your arms and coddle him?

[mauidano]

Leadership is more about being there for your teammates and lighting a fire under their asses when necessary than it is talking to the media, especially some of our hacks. Yes, we've had outspoken leaders in the past who relished the media, but it's not a vital component, imho. Close ranks, solve the issues that are causing the suck of September and early 2012 as best you can in house, and start performing. Winning is a great elixir. Do it overtly or covertly, I don't care. Just step up and get it done. I don't care if it's someone obvious, like Pedroia, or someone you might not expect, like Punto. Ideally it would come from Bobby V, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

This is a new day and age in professional sports. If these massively overpaid athletes can't get motivated on their own, no one else will. The days of "win it for the Gipper" are long gone.

[Harry Hooper]

Youkils sucked all year from the start of spring training until now. That is good reason in my book to call someone out.

If you want to call someone out, you say he's not getting the job done or isn't giving the club what it needs from him. You don't say he mailing it in and isn't committed, unless that's exactly what you mean to say. BobbyV blundered into this episode.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Of course, thats not what Bobby said.

[Rasputin]

Youkilis sucked all year from the start of spring training until now. That is good reason in my book to call someone out.

No it isn't. The only good reason to call someone out is that they aren't trying hard and repeated attempts to deal with it in house have failed.

[Mystic Merlin]

I for one am not interested in reading any more of jsinger's book.

What the hell are you talking about?

[geoduck no quahog]

The thought that any $150M team stacked with veterans needs "leadership" in the eyes of the public makes me sick.

Kansas City needs "leadership". The Yankees don't.

Edited by geoduck no quahog, 22 April 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Youkilis sucked all year from the start of spring training until now. That is good reason in my book to call someone out.

A guy gets into a slump and he should be destroyed in the press? Other players, notably Ortiz and Pedroia, have had awful starts to seasons and have rebounded nicely to save those seasons. Their manager saw no need to publicly trash their commitment to the team.

So no, it wasn't a good reason at all.

[Sprowl]

The evidence to date indicates Lackey was decidedly NOT implicated in the chicken-and-beer clique -- that seems to be Beckett's initiative.

Defending John Lackey, it makes one's skin crawl. .

OK, I feel better -- burn Lackey!

And just to make you feel even better, Lackey was featured prominently in the I Love Beer video that made the rounds in June and then again during the October post-mortem (although with his chin, I suppose that prominence can't be considered a choice).


And he turned me into a newt.

A guy gets into a slump and he should be destroyed in the press? Other players, notably Ortiz and Pedroia, have had awful starts to seasons and have rebounded nicely to save those seasons. Their manager saw no need to publicly trash their commitment to the team.

So no, it wasn't a good reason at all.

Beyond the miserable timing of Bobby V's comments (after a three-game winning streak during which Youkilis got on base at a very high clip), they didn't make sense from what we know about Youkilis, which is that, if anything, he cares too much -- about every strike call, every at-bat, every fastball off his bony exterior. Youkilis may have many faults, but lack of caring isn't one of them.

[bschase2]

I simply don't buy that this team lacks leadership. This team lacks a bullpen. If they win the games the bullpen blew, there is no leadership issue.

Perhaps once in a great while, a leader can make someone try a little more, or take a little heat off someone else. However, these are grown men, who have worked nonstop since they were boys to get where they are. I don't see a convincing argument that any of these players would be very different if we had a "leader."

[Captaincoop]

I don't know that Lackey has ever been one of the leaders of the pitching staff, but I do think there is no doubt that Becket is there front and center as the leader of this staff.

From the outside looking in, it seems that Beckett at this point is a bad apple. Maybe he wasn't five years ago, but he is now. Thanks for 2007, but that was a long time ago, and the performance has been inconsistent from day one in Boston. He's out of shape, he is ineffective, and he seems (again, from the outside) to be the leader of the unhappy pitchers club.

I would have zero problem at this point if the Sox jettisoned Beckett just to get him away from this team and to break up his little clique with Lackey. Yes, they're already thin at SP, but he's been part of the problem half the time he's been with the team, and if there's a 5% chance that it sends a wake up call to some of the younger pitchers, go for it.