61 replies to this topic

[soxfan121]

Vote. It's high time that management got SoSH's collective opinion on this.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Where's the option for never play it again because it's a stupid "tradition" in the first place?

[knucklecup]

Not to turn this into a game thread esque thread, but anybody who likes Sweet Caroline - winning or losing - is below average at life.

[knucklecup]

Where's the option for never play it again because it's a stupid "tradition" in the first place?

This. Be done with it already.

[Rasputin]

I cannot even imagine giving a shit.

[Laser Show]

I don't care as long as the team is making the playoffs and making noise. Now? It pisses me off.

[amh03]

I cannot even imagine giving a shit.

This!

[The Long Tater]

You need another option: it is always an embarassment and should never be part of the Fenway experience.

it's worse than Cotton Eyed Joe

[Rasputin]

it's worse than Cotton Eyed Joe

Now that's just crazy talk.

[snowmanny]

It's not as bad as God Bless America.

[Domer]

Great, this thread again.

[The Gray Eagle]

The people singing Sweet Caroline in the 8th inning today were still at the ballpark, despite the suckiest loss imaginable. That's better than all the people who gave up and left early. So what's the big deal? Let 'em sing. If they don't play that song, they'll just play some other crappy song instead.

Let the people who stay there and like that song have their fun. At least they haven't given up so much that they left early. If I had been at that game I probably would have bailed by the bottom of the 8th.

"How dare you people at the ballpark have any fun at all when we're LOSING! The fans sitting silently and angrily or jeering and booing is just the thing to inspire the team to come back and win." Ballgame crowds need to do more singing, not less.

PS I hate that song, and when I am dictator no pre-recorded music will be played at ballparks. But who cares, let them sing.

[Sprowl]

It's not as bad as God Bless America.

This. GBA should never be inflicted on the Fenway crowd, particularly by off-key amateurs. Next time they try to jolly us into singing along with GBA, I will sing Sweet Caroline as a protest song, or in other words, as loud as I can.

[JakeRae]

I cannot even imagine giving a shit.

Can we add this option to the poll?

I couldn't care less what songs fans choose to sing and when they choose to sing them at games (as long as when is in between innings). I can't vote for any of the options in this poll, but my overall opinion is somewhere between "who cares?" and, "Go for it. A lot of the fans enjoy the fact that it happens and it doesn't do any harm to those who don't like it." I'm not saying yes, because I have no attachment to the song, but I've always been baffled that some people seem to be so passionately against the singing of this song.

[Yazdog8]

Too bad there isn't an option to get rid of the song entirely. I voted for only when winning.

[BigMike]

Honestly Sweet Caroline is what the Fenway Experience is all about at this point in time. It is all about the show, all about getting the casual fan in and giving them the show they want.

To some degree I really don't care, but that is what it is.

But what do you really want? Should they not play music when the team is behind? Or do you want them to play something like Hurt by Johnny Cash for games like this. or maybe The Boomtown Rats i don't like Mondays

[Rough Carrigan]

You had to be there to experience this tonight.
Incidentally, I voted to let them keep playing it.
But I was sitting there absolutely furious at the morons shown on the center field board laughing and gleefully dancing and singing along. You're near the conclusion of something historically bad you fucking assholes. It was not good, so good. Caring about the team or the game didn't even seem to enter their limited thoughts.

[ichirob4ichiro]

But I was sitting there absolutely furious at the morons shown on the center field board laughing and gleefully dancing and singing along. You're near the conclusion of something historically bad you fucking assholes. It was not good, so good. Caring about the team or the game didn't even seem to enter their limited thoughts.

This makes me very sad. And angry. I just don't know who to be angry at anymore. . .

[Seven Costanza]

You had to be there to experience this tonight.
Incidentally, I voted to let them keep playing it.
But I was sitting there absolutely furious at the morons shown on the center field board laughing and gleefully dancing and singing along. You're near the conclusion of something historically bad you fucking assholes. It was not good, so good. Caring about the team or the game didn't even seem to enter their limited thoughts.

I agree with this, and I feel the same way. I constantly have to remind myself though that other people are at the ballpark for different reasons than I. I can't expect everyone else to care like we do.

[teddywingman]

Not to turn this into a game thread esque thread, but anybody who likes Sweet Caroline - winning or losing - is below average at life.

So like... a knucklecup 5?

[Toe Nash]

But I was sitting there absolutely furious at the morons shown on the center field board laughing and gleefully dancing and singing along. You're near the conclusion of something historically bad you fucking assholes. It was not good, so good. Caring about the team or the game didn't even seem to enter their limited thoughts.

Maybe we could learn something from these people.

It's only an April 21 game, and it's only baseball. Life is short and we've seen two championships while many of our ancestors saw none. They paid their money, let them sing.

[simplyeric]

I agree with this, and I feel the same way. I constantly have to remind myself though that other people are at the ballpark for different reasons than I. I can't expect everyone else to care like we do.

There was a time when I LOVED doing "the wave" and singing along. And that did two things:
1. It made me more likely to give them my money, which allowed them to increase payroll, improve the park, etc.
2. It was the gateway drug to over time wanting to know more about the team, and how the game works, etc. I'm far from the most technically or informational savvy person here (far far), but I'm interested and absorbing it, and probably wouldn't have ended up here now if not for the hoopla then.

I came for the spicey Italian sausage and sweet Caroline, but I stayed for the VORP and Pitchf/x.

This may make me a bad person.

[stevman17]

I like singing and being drunk. It's a baseball game, not a funeral. Keep it.

[Rasputin]

Maybe we could learn something from these people.

It's only an April 21 game, and it's only baseball. Life is short and we've seen two championships while many of our ancestors saw none. They paid their money, let them sing.

If we're going to question the validity of allowing the performance of a baseball team to have a much greater impact on our emotional well being than is healthy then our whole lives are meaningless.

[Oil Can Dan]

You're talking about one of those things they do between innings, right?

Some of you take some of this way too seriously.

(null)

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

I honestly cannot believe that people get worked up over this. No one lives and dies with the Sox more than I do. Been that way for over 40 years. But in the end, it's a game, it's entertainment, and it's a fun, goofy song. Let people who paid their money have their fun. And maybe, just maybe, you can enjoy a little break from the tension as well. Lighten the fuck up.

Edited by Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat, 22 April 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[941827]

The model for the Red Sox as an entertainment concern should be the Cubs. Even when they field AWFUL teams, the Cubs routinely beat the league average in attendance by about a half-million people: http://www.baseball-...cubsatte.shtml.

The only way you get attendance numbers like that is to encourage pink-hatters and college kids to come to Fenway for the experience as much as for the game. Especially with the Dentist back, Sweet Caroline isn't going anywhere. I mean, if you need any convincing about this, the inspiration for the song threw out a first pitch during the Fenway 100 ceremony yesterday (which made it particularly ludicrous for PeteAbe and others to suggest that they not play it today).

Edited by 941827, 21 April 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[Oil Can Dan]

When's the thread about that whole 'guess the attendance' thing they do in between innings? I mean, who gives a damn about that when the Sox are losing? Amiright???

(null)

[Rudy Pemberton]

It's a tradition, it lasts three minutes. It has nothing to do with the score of the game; it's about celebrating being out, with friends, watching a fucking baseball game. Everyone wants the team to win (especially management....they make a lot more when things are good) but do we have to act like miserable fucks when things aren't great? Nothing compares to 04, and 07 wasn't bad either, but I've had a lot of great Sox memories, many of them before 04. When did we become so spoiled and obnoxious (not us, of course. The pink hats).

[Hyde Park Factor]

You had to be there to experience this tonight.
Incidentally, I voted to let them keep playing it.
But I was sitting there absolutely furious at the morons shown on the center field board laughing and gleefully dancing and singing along. You're near the conclusion of something historically bad you fucking assholes. It was not good, so good. Caring about the team or the game didn't even seem to enter their limited thoughts.

I would bet that folks like that take a similar view towards the hardcore fans and wonder why anyone would take it so seriously. (FTR, I'm in the "who gives a shit" crowd).

[sittingstill]

It's a tradition, it lasts three minutes. It has nothing to do with the score of the game; it's about celebrating being out, with friends, watching a fucking baseball game.

I'd add that since Fenway doesn't bombard the fans all game with PA-driven chants, "Everybody-clap-your-hands!" etc., "Sweet Caroline" is sometimes the moment in the game where fans collectively remember that they have voices and they can use them. The bottom of the eighth seems to have a lot more fan enthusiasm.

And while I understand the view of those who hate the song and never want to hear it at all, it seems to me that if the team's going to play it, they have to play it win or lose. Under what circumstances would the team itself say "Yep, we suck today, no hope of coming back, everyone stop having fun"? Would there be a chart of win probability, where maybe you'd play it down three against the Orioles but not down two against the Rangers? Should the concept of no-fun-if-they're-losing be expanded--no ice cream sales after the fifth if they're trailing? And the notion of playing it only when winning (or tied?) seems like sheer hubris to me, like celebrating when the game's not over yet.

They play "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" every game, whether it's a game you wish you hadn't been taken out to or not. If they choose to play something in the eighth (and I think it could be worse--I would really not want to hear "Hang On Sloopy" every game) I think they have to play it regardless, as an element of baseball at that particular park but not connected to any particular game.

[canderson]

"It's a tradition"

When did signing this shit song begin, anyone know? I can't remember, likely because I blacked it out.

[Hyde Park Factor]

"It's a tradition"

When did signing this shit song begin, anyone know? I can't remember, likely because I blacked it out.

It became a staple of every home game in 2002, at the request of current ownership. There was some history before that, but not much. For some reason, I thought this was a Dan Duquette thing.

Link

[Lose Remerswaal]

Not a fan, myself, but it is something that draws fans to the ballpark, and when the team sucks, you have to rely on the pink hats and the drunks to buy tickets, beer, and merchandise. And that pays the bills that buy better players (and managers?) Even on Friday, the toughest ticket in a long time at Fenway, I had fans ask me "when do they sing Sweet Caroline?"

[Remagellan]

I really don't care one way or the other, but if it is going to be played it should be played all the time. What they are singing about that is "so good" is the experience of being at the ballpark. Those of us who are so deeply concerned with the team's fate that we mourn each loss as if it is a tragedy forget for many, the point of going to the ballpark is to spend some time in a beautiful place and enjoy the contest, and "root, root, root for the home team." The "shame" in "if they don't win it's a shame" is meant as "that's too bad" not a life-defining mark or an excuse to punch a wall or proof that someone who gets paid to play or manage the game and fails at it for that day or even a few days is a waste of life. Because if all you take out of a trip to see the game is that it's win or the world can go fuck itself, then you're a waste of life.

[Doug Beerabelli]

I am sick of the song, and don't sing it when there, but it'd be selfish of me as a fan to insist on it being banned when it appears to bring joy to a good part of those in attendance.

Perhaps they should move it up to the second inning, at least for this year.

[bankshot1]

while "tradition" seems to far overplay the importance or relevance for a song they've played for 10-15 years, if you don't like the song, maybe that's the time to take a leak.

Edited by bankshot1, 22 April 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[Jnai]

You know what detracts from the atmosphere of the game? Beer. It makes people belligerent. It makes people loud and obnoxious. It makes people worse fans, because it's harder to pay attention when drunk. They should stop selling Beer at Fenway.

Oh, wait, people go to Baseball games to have a good time with friends?

[Winger 03]

You are off your rocker!

You need another option: it is always an embarassment and should never be part of the Fenway experience.

it's worse than Cotton Eyed Joe

[Savin Hillbilly]

I am sick of the song, and don't sing it when there, but it'd be selfish of me as a fan to insist on it being banned when it appears to bring joy to a good part of those in attendance.

I am sick of the song, too, and wish they would just pull the plug on it, period. It's a dumbass song by one of the worst songwriters ever to get rich and famous, a guy who is identified with New York and roots for the Dodgers. Maybe it had some charm in the Theo/Tito glory days, but those days are over. When eras end, that's a good time to scrap old traditions and look for new ones. And I can't think of a better place to start than this.

[smastroyin]

I am usually the one to start this thread. I can't even imagine during yeterday's debacle having that come up.

I know that people enjoy it, I've just always wondered if maybe they could pick a different song for when the game is crappy. You know, have some imagination at all. Or, perhaps, play it in the fifth instead of the eighth. Something.

I'm more bitter about it this year because even though the payroll is huge they have a lot of detritus on the roster, so I'm not buying the "these people are the ones that pay for the team argument." I mean, it stands to reason logically, but when they suck I don't want to hear it.

[Rough Carrigan]

I agree with this, and I feel the same way. I constantly have to remind myself though that other people are at the ballpark for different reasons than I. I can't expect everyone else to care like we do.

I understand. But I would never expect them to care like we do. I was just repulsed at the complete lack of anything, even a wisp or scintilla of something that hinted in the general direction of ambivalence about the situation. Historic, crushing ignominy on the field didn't even exist two seconds after a song came over the P.A. system. In a way, you can see it as horribly sad for how malleable it makes people seem because a fair percentage of those same people had likely joined in booing Bobby Valentine. But then there was a song.

I remember the game in late September 2003 when the Sox clinched a playoff spot. Back in the playoffs after 4 years! They hit the Orioles' pitchers with a full broadside from that year's great Sox offense in the early going and the game was never in doubt. People were walking around under the stands getting beers and hot dogs, all glancing around at each other ready to shout or whoop for joy, just waiting for that game to be over. Back in the playoffs! And when Sweet Caroline came on in the 8th inning, 38,000 people shouted it at the top of their lungs. It was great. Last night was not.

I think there's a funeral home just off Kenmore Square. I could picture many of the attendees from last night's game seated at a eulogy for a deceased loved one lying there in a casket before them, a father, a mother, son or daughter with tears welling up in their eyes, some sobbing. Miscreant fate! Unjust death! But then bursting into bouncy, jaunty song as the strains of Sweet Caroline came wafting over from Fenway.

Edited by Rough Carrigan, 22 April 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[In my lifetime]

I was at the game yesterday and the song came up in conversation. I was with a non-Red Sox fan and 6 family members - all Sox fans. The 7th and 8th innings were so depressing, discouraging and unwatchable (unless you are a person who likes to stop and gawk at a train wreck), that I gathered up our group of 8 after the arsonists gave the Yankees a significant lead and left. It is probably the only time in 40 years of going to games that I have left early. As we walked out, the non-Red Sox fan said he would have liked hearing Sweet Caroline.

So I suggest, if you don't like it --- step outside and go to the bathroom/Yawkey Way/etc. Let the people who enjoy this part of the experience, enjoy it and realize that it is part of what brings money into the Red Sox coffers. It also makes a lot of financial sense to cater to non-fans or semi-fans, since that is what is filling up the park and buying pink hats, etc.

[Rocco Graziosa]

The Washington Capitols play "Hard Days Night" by the Beatles after the team loses a game. I found that funny and appropriate.

It would have been funny and appropriate of the Sox had played that instead of Sweet Caroline yesterday.

[mauidano]

Part of the experience. Keep it. Win games, don't get your ass kicked at home and you won't have a problem.

[FL4WL3SS]

You had to be there to experience this tonight.
Incidentally, I voted to let them keep playing it.
But I was sitting there absolutely furious at the morons shown on the center field board laughing and gleefully dancing and singing along. You're near the conclusion of something historically bad you fucking assholes. It was not good, so good. Caring about the team or the game didn't even seem to enter their limited thoughts.

So you should be able to tell people how to enjoy their hard earned money? Those people paid to attend the game and enjoy themselves, not sit and sulk. If that's what they want to do, then so be it. Nobody is judging you for sitting in your seat and sulking. This wasn't game 7 of the ALCS, it was a random game against New York in April. Be mad at the team, not the fans who show up to enjoy themselves.

Sometimes I think people here wish the Sox were the Indians. It's great to have passionate fans, but I'd rather have $150 million dollars to blow on payroll.

[HriniakPosterChild]

When's the thread about that whole 'guess the attendance' thing they do in between innings? I mean, who gives a damn about that when the Sox are losing? Amiright???

(null)

Bickford's!

[JohntheBaptist]

I think this is actually kind of a fascinating confluence of history, tradition, changing business models, expectations. The whole cultural history of being a "Red Sox fan" colliding with a marketing plan that is seeking to attract what is necessarily a wider audience--everyone else. Our intensity as fans works against us in nearly every arena these days--because we're so intense, we're taken as a given. Not just at Fenway--everywhere; Fox, newer MLB parks, the way the game presents itself to new fans. Broadcasts aren't tailored to us, stadiums are never created with us in mind, we're routinely mocked as too obsessive by the people who cover the sport.

It's one of those things that makes perfect financial/ business sense, but is frustrating and alienating. It is what creates hottubs in MLB outfields, the ruination of Tim McCarver's pbp style, the rise of ESPN and the everything-but-the-substance approach across all outlets.

"Sweet Caroline" is a weird part of that conflict because it is happening here in Boston, where the attempt to woo these more "casual" fans is by appealing to casual nostalgia and the theme of "tradition," which plays well in this region. "America's Most Beloved Ballpark." So in many instances it really feels like what was built by fans like us (ie, the 67 season rightly being referenced as a starting point for the team's subsequent popular renaissance and was essentially made of the faith of people with no reason to still have it) is being used to create some facsimile of what it would be like if you'd been to Fenway year after year and really invested in them emotionally. What it'd be like to be at Fenway and to have something to participate in--they're offering the opportunity to be the lunatic fringe (us). "Sweet Caroline" is a "tradition" that isn't really a tradition, something that people have come to expect to hear and enjoy as part of the "Fenway experience," but that doesn't (as far as I can recall) have any kind of connection to anything that would call a tradition into existence to begin with. Rocco's Nationals example is an awesome one--"Hard Day's Night" after a loss in WAS is a different animal--it almost communicates the "fun" of building a new team/ identity in two and a half minutes. "Sweet Caroline" is marketing a phantom nostalgia as part of the "Fenway Experience." I think people that are bothered by it aren't upset that other fans aren't "upset enough," just that the experience is no longer dynamic and is more a part of a pre-packaged concept aimed at someone else. The experience is being created for them instead of happening as a result of the action; it has little to do with baseball, and for us on the lunatic fringe, that is just galling. It just is.

I think my reaction to it is exactly in line with Rough Carrigan's. If I saw what he describes above on Saturday, I'd be disgusted too, but like he mentions, you can't expect a generation of baseball fans that have been taught to foreground the experience of being at a baseball game (comes from high ticket/ food/ parking costs, MLB's presentation of itself, nature of newer ballparks) over the action on the field to carry the emotion of the game the same way the "lunatic fringe" does. How can they not at least be given pause in their revelry after that shit? Answer: they're not here to see baseball, they're here to be at Fenway.

The other side of the coin though Rough--none of those idiots feels it as sharply when they win it all either.

[Rough Carrigan]

So you should be able to tell people how to enjoy their hard earned money? Those people paid to attend the game and enjoy themselves, not sit and sulk. If that's what they want to do, then so be it. Nobody is judging you for sitting in your seat and sulking. This wasn't game 7 of the ALCS, it was a random game against New York in April. Be mad at the team, not the fans who show up to enjoy themselves.

Sometimes I think people here wish the Sox were the Indians. It's great to have passionate fans, but I'd rather have $150 million dollars to blow on payroll.

Did I say anywhere that I should be able to tell people how to enjoy their hard earned money?
No. I didn't.
It's perfectly possible for an adult to defend someone's right to make a choice while simultaneously hating that they made that particular choice. That's the nature of living in a free country.

As to wanting them to sulk. Again, you're saying something I didn't. Nowhere did I say they should sulk. I decried the lack of even some slight apparent ambivalence.

Be mad at what other posters actually say, not the argument that you pretend they made.

Edited by Rough Carrigan, 22 April 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[alannathan]

I consider myself as serious a baseball fan (and Red Sox fan) as anyone out there. I live and die with the Red Sox. And like many of you, I like to analyze the game in many different ways. And all that. But, I really do like the Sweet Caroline tradition, winning or losing. In fact, I look forward to the sound of 39k people singing in unison. Even if the current team is more "not so good" than "so good", I still like it. So there!