33 replies to this topic

[Marbleheader]

What say ye?

[wutang112878]

Could we add 1 more option for "I would be happy with a significant renovation"? Thats where I am. The park is very unique with the wall and general layout, and I would be fine if they did a renovation to fix some simple things like making the seats larger, having the seats on the 1st base side face the plate, and adding capacity so total capacity does not decrease.

[Lose Remerswaal]

They can't make the seats larger without losing 10% (or more) of the capacity, and they can't reangle the RF seats without doing the same and/or shutting down the place for a full season.

[BellhornsBiatch]

I am 28 and my wife and I don't have any kids yet, but I will be very disappointed if my kids don't get to experience what my folks' parents did, my parents, and I myself have experienced in this wonderful park. Fenway Park gives me chills every time I walk up the ramp to the field.


edit: I initially thought Lose was suggesting a seat renovation plan as the alternative.

Edited by BellhornsBiatch, 20 April 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Lose Remerswaal]

You're not with me at all. I want the place blown up yesterday.

It's great for the once/year gang, but it sucks for the regulars, or folks in RF or folks behind pillers. It's beyond renovation.

[wutang112878]

They can't make the seats larger without losing 10% (or more) of the capacity, and they can't reangle the RF seats without doing the same and/or shutting down the place for a full season.

I dont know if its physically/structurally possible, but I always thought they should add to the roof decks and gain capacity that way, because I do agree that fixing the seats will reduce capacity, but I think they have some options to keep total capacity about level. And if it had to be shut down for a season, I am all for it and I bet it would be better financially than to build a new stadium.

[Seven Costanza]

Preach on brother Lose.

Place is too small for the number of people who show up every game. Lose, did they add new concessions along the 1st base concourse? The 2 gameS I've been to so far this season it seemed way more congested in there than usual (which is saying quite a bit)

Edited by Seven Costanza, 20 April 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Dalton Jones]

My sincere hope is that tonight, at the stroke of midnight, the earth beneath the lyrical little bandbox opens and swallows the thing whole. I am sick of the nostalgia for this antiquated structure that people persist in making a fetish of. I almost barfed when I realized with horror that ownership had built a replica of it down in Florida. The place sucks. It's sucked for decades. It will suck for decades more because sox fans will continue to wax rhapsodic about it. I'm sure the ownership would have built a new park if they thought they could in the beginning, but they realized it was impossible in this town to do it and so they went all in and made tremendous improvements and amped up the nostalgia as a marketing tool. It worked. People still flock to the park to watch a mediocre product. They pay the highest prices in baseball for a seat and an arm and a leg to park. Then they suffer nine interminable innings squeezed into an uncomfortable chair and wait in long lines for an overpriced beer. And to top it all off they sing to that insipid song in the late innings, a song that sucked the moment it was recorded and hasn't gotten any better since.

Blow. The. Place. Up.

Build a new park on the waterfront.

In my dreams......

[Savin Hillbilly]

Crap, how did I manage to vote for both "near Fenway" and "elsewhere in Boston"? I meant the latter. I think the absolutely, overwhelmingly logical choice for a new park, if they do build one, is in the South Boston waterfront area. Easy to get to these days, they could probably find the land, and it would have a genuinely Boston character, but of a quite different flavor from the current location. And the harbor site might suggest ideas for the overall design, both of the ballpark dimensions/characteristics and the seating and amenities. (And no, I don't mean a whale that breaches and spouts when a Sox player hits a home run.)

If there is a new park, it definitely needs to be wholly unlike Fenway in character. Nothing would be more stupid and depressing than abandoning Fenway yet trying to hijack its marketing cachet by building a New Improved Fenway. Fuck that. If you're going to go new, go new.

All that said, I really can't imagine the Sox playing anywhere else, and I'm in no hurry for them to.

[RingoOSU]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who voted modern nostalgic. No reason the two words should be opposites. Look at Camden Yards.

[Toe Nash]

I understand most Fenway complaints, but complaining about the pillars is silly. They exist to hold the roof decks up, and those are closer to the field than in any new park. Modern parks are built with the upper decks with cantilevered support, but in order to make this work the seats (the cheap seats) need to be much further from the field. They have sacrificed the view of thousands of less-expensive seats so that none of the more expensive seats will have anything blocking them. How many seats are really obstructed -- 500 at most? I can understand back in the day when you'd buy a ticket not marked "obstructed view" and find out when you got there that it really was, but if you check the preciseseating site before buying you'll know exactly how much of your view is obstructed.

They should add to the roof decks because those are some of the best views in the stadium.

Edit: I know they built the luxury boxes up there so they're not exactly helping the little guy out. But if possible I'd love to see the upper decks expanded, and I think the hooting and hollering over the pillars is overblown.

Edited by Toe Nash, 20 April 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[jsinger121]

The place is historic but its a dump. Build me a new stadium in a heartbeat.

[Lefty on the Mound]

For us old guys, choices 1 and 2 are pretty much the same.

[JimBoSox9]

I can't find it now, but I recall back in the day when Janet the Builder got started on Fenway, she said that structurally, Fenway just can't support a significant expansion of upper-deck seats. I doubt that's changed.

I've been beating the drum for years that Fenway doesn't have the most expensive tikets in MLB because any particular seats are more expensive than equivalent seats in other parks, it's because they lack the large sections of cheap seats to drive the average price down.

I want the Sox to compete for the WS every year. I also want to be able to decide on a whim to go to a game on a nice day and not have to pay through the nose for tickets. The ONLY way to accomplish that is a new stadium.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Preach on brother Lose.

Place is too small for the number of people who show up every game. Lose, did they add new concessions along the 1st base concourse? The 2 gameS I've been to so far this season it seemed way more congested in there than usual (which is saying quite a bit)

I've been to two games so far and didn't notice any new concessions. First game was opening day and my seat is in the middle of a Grandstand row -- getting out and back in to get food is not worth the trouble (and the price. And it was Passover, which made options limited). Second game I worked and I walked the first base concourse 2 or 3 times and didn't see anything new, nor anything new on Yawkey Way. Haven't been to the bleachers yet, nor under 3rd base side. 3rd Base concourse on a quick glance looked the same as well. I really couldn't find any changes to the ballpark. Going today, will keep my eyes open.

I can't find it now, but I recall back in the day when Janet the Builder got started on Fenway, she said that structurally, Fenway just can't support a significant expansion of upper-deck seats. I doubt that's changed.

Not without substantially increasing the width of the pillars, IIRC

[Toe Nash]

I want the Sox to compete for the WS every year. I also want to be able to decide on a whim to go to a game on a nice day and not have to pay through the nose for tickets. The ONLY way to accomplish that is a new stadium.

I'm not sure that those days will ever come. I know Boston isn't quite NY, but the cheapest seats in the new Yankee Stadium are $23, or $15 for obstructed view bleacher seats where you can't see 1/3rd of the field. If they built a new stadium and the team was bad for a while then maybe they'd lose enough demand to drop prices or have deals on Tuesdays or whatever, but then...you'd have a bad team.

Unless you consider $23 not paying through the nose. In which case, you'll see those prices this year on the secondary market if they continue to be poor.

[soPhisHticated]

I kinda thought choices 2 and 3 work out to the same thing. If they announced tomorrow that they were beginning to explore options for a new ballpark - it's at least 5 and probably 10 years away from becoming reality.

I've always thought that today is the day this ownership team has been working towards since they bought it. Renovate and expand Fenway Park as well as possible, celebrate the centennial... then sell high. THIS ownership group is not going the one to tear down Fenway. They have invested a good deal and are certain to reap a healthy return on their investment. The next owners are going to be hard pressed to look at the economics and decide to keep Fenway around. It can't be reasonably expanded, I can't imagine it being any more "livable" than it is now, and if it isn't well maintained the support for a new park will quickly gather momentum.

I love Fenway park. I love the nostalgia and character of places that have been around for a long, long time. At the same time, nothing can remain permanent. Fenway won't be around around forever.

[canderson]

They have to go the Detroit model - move away from what was loved. Tear the dump down when the current renovations run their course, and build a new, completely different structure along the waterfront.

That said, i's a VASTLY better experience watchng a game today that 10 years ago, and if your seat's not obstructed and faces the field the seating is equal to other new stadiums. Camden's lower bowl is just as tight as Fenway's, IMO. Despite that insufferable 8th inning sing, Fenway doesn't bombard your senses like every other stadium, for this alone it's my favorite place not named PNC or PAC Bell to watch a game.

Demand for tickets Is already lower than it's been in a long time, if poor play continues it'll fall of the Boston-standard cliff. Moving will be monumentally tough but I hope it happens within 20 years.

Edited by canderson, 20 April 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[RedOctober3829]

Was there an outcry like this when Boston Garden was torn down? If Yankee Stadium can be torn down, so can Fenway Park. It's time for a more modern park. You can build the new park to the exact same specs, but have all of the same modern amenities that new parks have.

[StuckOnYouk]

They can't make the seats larger without losing 10% (or more) of the capacity, and they can't reangle the RF seats without doing the same and/or shutting down the place for a full season.

Are there any fans out there that would say they wouldn't agree to a 5-10% increase in ticket prices (yes I know how high they are) if it meant you get brand new, roomier seats? If I'm paying 50 for a seat, I'll pay 55 for a much more comfy seat that is facing the right direction

Edited by StuckOnYouk, 20 April 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[wutang112878]

Was there an outcry like this when Boston Garden was torn down? If Yankee Stadium can be torn down, so can Fenway Park.

Not that I can remember. And I would argue that from a fan experience standpoint the Garden was better. Yes the seats were small and it would get hot, but having everyone basically on top of one another made the place really loud, and a very fun venue to watch a game at. In addition, there was much, much more championship history in the Garden compared to Fenway.

[drbretto]

I would rather see Fenway be Fenway forever, but if it absolutely had to be replaced, I would like to see them either never tear down the old Fenway and make it a landmark, or have them move the actual wall to the new stadium and keep the same (or similar) dimensions with the most up to date amenities money can buy. Some parking might be nice, too.

[brs3]

I get to 1 game a year, maybe 2 if luck strikes, so I'd like to keep it. The ownership has put a lot of thought into the park, so I wouldn't be shocked if they found a way to improve the crappy seating, longterm.

If they did build a new one, I'd want it elsewhere, totally original, and not just a cast of Fenway. No wall, no Pesky Pole, no triangle. Fenway will never be forgotten, I don't think we need to be tied to the designs of 1912.

So, keep it, or totally start over somewhere else in Boston.

[PC Drunken Friar]

Crap, how did I manage to vote for both "near Fenway" and "elsewhere in Boston"? I meant the latter. I think the absolutely, overwhelmingly logical choice for a new park, if they do build one, is in the South Boston waterfront area. Easy to get to these days, they could probably find the land, and it would have a genuinely Boston character, but of a quite different flavor from the current location. And the harbor site might suggest ideas for the overall design, both of the ballpark dimensions/characteristics and the seating and amenities. (And no, I don't mean a whale that breaches and spouts when a Sox player hits a home run.)

If there is a new park, it definitely needs to be wholly unlike Fenway in character. Nothing would be more stupid and depressing than abandoning Fenway yet trying to hijack its marketing cachet by building a New Improved Fenway. Fuck that. If you're going to go new, go new.

All that said, I really can't imagine the Sox playing anywhere else, and I'm in no hurry for them to.

There is no way they will build on the waterfront. It is now too valuable for industrial parks and condos

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

If there is a new park, it definitely needs to be wholly unlike Fenway in character. Nothing would be more stupid and depressing than abandoning Fenway yet trying to hijack its marketing cachet by building a New Improved Fenway. Fuck that. If you're going to go new, go new.

It's time for a more modern park. You can build the new park to the exact same specs, but have all of the same modern amenities that new parks have.

I wish the last two questions had been broken out into a single poll question because I would be really interested in knowing whether people thought that any new Fenway would include the Monster. I have to admit that I am ambivalent - on the one hand, I have thought that it has hurt the Sox in trying to build their teams over the years but OTOH, I can't imagine them playing without it.

[Captaincoop]

If there is a new park, it definitely needs to be wholly unlike Fenway in character. Nothing would be more stupid and depressing than abandoning Fenway yet trying to hijack its marketing cachet by building a New Improved Fenway. Fuck that. If you're going to go new, go new.

If anything being discussed here is a near-certainty, it's that any "New Fenway" will basically be an updated version of Fenway Park, complete with Green Monster and triangle. Look at the success the MFY have had doing that (twice, really). And look at the pile of fail that is the Shawmut Center/FleetCenter/TD Banknorth/whatever it's called this week right across town.

Like it or not (and I can see both sides of that argument) all precedent points to rebuilding it in the image of Fenway someday.

[Dalton Jones]

I would rather see Fenway be Fenway forever, but if it absolutely had to be replaced, I would like to see them either never tear down the old Fenway and make it a landmark, or have them move the actual wall to the new stadium and keep the same (or similar) dimensions with the most up to date amenities money can buy. Some parking might be nice, too.

Forgive me for being a prick, but this is precisely the kind of fetishization I'm talking about. I realize they more or less did the same thing with the new Yankee Stadium, but the wall is a joke. I know, I know, no sox fan's life is complete until he or she makes the pilgrimage to the wall and weeps before it, remembering all the great moments attached to that sacred edifice. But can't we move on? Can't we start a new tradition? 315 down the line? Windswept pop ups turned into home runs? And down right, Pesky's Pole? Oy.

[DanoooME]

If a new park is built, I'd like at least some of the quirks that make Fenway different than all of the other parks be replicated in the new place. That's a lot of what gives Fenway its charm (and sometimes opposing players fits). Building a 50,000 seat palace around those quirks would be the best of both worlds.

And if they build it in Boston, it would make sense to put it right on public transportation, like a station right at the stadium, heck, maybe even underneath the stadium. The walk from the current station isn't onerous, but it isn't that much fun when it's crowded (or hot or cold) either. And driving in that area is a mess. I can see both sides of putting it in the 'burbs vs. the city. I really don't care as long as I can get there a lot easier than I can now (and I only go to 3 games or so a year, but it's practically a pilgrimage from Maine).

[JimBoSox9]

Fenway is already registered as a national historic landmark, and if my understanding of those laws are correct, it cannot be torn down even if the Sox leave.


Edit: It appears I am wrong about the latter part:

Owners of private property listed in the National Register have no obligation to open their properties to the public, to restore them, or even to maintain them, if they choose not to do so. Owners can do anything they wish with their property provided that no Federal license, permit, or funding is involved.

http://www.nps.gov/n...ochure/#results

Edited by JimBoSox9, 20 April 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Living far enough away that I don't expect to visit more than once a year, I'm okay with the place sticking around. It is a fun park to watch a game being played...on TV.

That said, if they do eventually replace it, I'd love to see them replicate the ballpark dimensions, only in mirror image. Wall in RF, bullpens in LF. Same but different. Acknowledges the old park, but is a brand new one in the same respect.

[Beomoose]

Yeah, build a new stadium on the waterfront in Southie, put a playground-pool combo in the outfield bleacher area, then change the team colors to Pink and White, set off fireworks every time someone hits a seeing-eye single, and put TVs and mobile device rechargers in every seat.

No thanks, I'll take Fenway.

[simplyeric]

It's great for the once/year gang, but it sucks for the regulars, or folks in RF or folks behind pillers. It's beyond renovation.

There's very little out there that's "beyond renovation"

I can't find it now, but I recall back in the day when Janet the Builder got started on Fenway, she said that structurally, Fenway just can't support a significant expansion of upper-deck seats. I doubt that's changed.

Not without substantially increasing the width of the pillars, IIRC

It's not that it can't be done. It's that it's not easy, and it would be expensive. But, it could almost certainly be done.
I still think they should get some air rights over Landsdown expand the Monster seats into more bleachers.

Was there an outcry like this when Boston Garden was torn down? If Yankee Stadium can be torn down, so can Fenway Park. It's time for a more modern park. You can build the new park to the exact same specs, but have all of the same modern amenities that new parks have.

Yankee Stadium was terrible. I know you are saying that Fenway is terrible, and it's a subjective opinion either way. But Yankees stadium was like a parking garage with a baseball field in the middle of it, and was the whole "original hammer" routine (well, the handle was replaced, and the head was replaced, but it's still the original hammer).

I do love Fenway, and the seats can be fixed, and the capacity can be adjusted, if it's done right. Whole season to fix the seats? I doubt it. They just need better architects (and be willing to pay for it).

[Savin Hillbilly]

If a new park is built, I'd like at least some of the quirks that make Fenway different than all of the other parks be replicated in the new place. That's a lot of what gives Fenway its charm (and sometimes opposing players fits). Building a 50,000 seat palace around those quirks would be the best of both worlds.

I'm with Dalton Jones on this. Fenway's quirks belong to Fenway. When Fenway's day is done, so are theirs. We should build a new park with new quirks of its own.

And if they build it in Boston, it would make sense to put it right on public transportation, like a station right at the stadium, heck, maybe even underneath the stadium. The walk from the current station isn't onerous, but it isn't that much fun when it's crowded (or hot or cold) either. And driving in that area is a mess.

This is why a waterfront location would work so well. You could make the ballpark a Silver Line (bus) stop, or possibly even multiple stops convenient to different ballpark entrances. And the parking would be a pretty easy hop off the major expressways, certainly more so than now.

Of course this is assuming there's a suitable parcel available. I would guess there is, but I don't know.

[C4CRVT]

If I had a magic wand, I'd keep fenway and come up with a way to

• Expand the ballpark to 50,000 seats
• Eliminate the columns.
• Re-build the lower bowl in RF
• Spacious seating everywhere
• Greater vehicular access
• Lower seat prices.

I realize that I'm none of those options are particularly feasible but that's what I would do if I had a couple billion dollars sitting around for park improvements.

I'm one of the nostalgic out-of-towners that generally likes the park and doesn't think that fenway's flaws are a good enough reason to get rid of it. I think the qeustion of the new park design is a really tough one. I don't like the idea of building a replica at all. OTOH, I don't know how you'd develop features to make it not-generic that wouldn't be contrived.