323 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

The players are going to grow to hate him, huh?

Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine, in his weekly interview for WHDH-TV's Sports Xtra, said that third baseman Kevin Youkilis seemed to be less "into the game" than in the past.

"I don't think he's as physically or emotionally into the game as he has been in the past for some reason," Valentine said in the interview. "But [Saturday] it seemed, you know, he's seeing the ball well, got those two walks, got his on-base percentage up higher than his batting average, which is always a good thing, and he'll move on from there."

http://www.weei.com/..._medium=twitter

[SoxScout]

What in the hell is this?

[rembrat]

Horrible.

[Foulkey Reese]

This is what he says after 3 wins in a row?

[SoxScout]

Every time he talks he ends up having to apologize in the morning the next day. If he doesn't tomorrow I'll be shocked. It's brutal. It's a one-and-done tour.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Dude got married and isn't as focused? Who knows if true but obviously a risky move by Valentine, but what if everyone on the team feels that way? If it lights a fire under his ass, maybe it works. If Bobby is way off, than it could certainly backfire.

[JimBoSox9]

I'm semi-kinda with Rudy in that, in a vacuum, I'm OK with Bobby trying to light a fire under an underperforming veteran star who has some track record of being mercurial. However, considering the very likely possibility that Youks is still (and will forevermore be) hampered by a bum hip, it seems like quite a shitty thing to say.

[Van Everyman]

What in the hell is this?

Uhh, isn't everyone else on the site saying the exact same thing? Listen, I get that Tito never called guys out in the media before -- but if Valentine thinks he's distracted or not giving his all and not responding to the manager, maybe he thinks this is one way to get through to him.

[SoxScout]

Uhh, isn't everyone else on the site saying the exact same thing? Listen, I get that Tito never called guys out in the media before -- but if Valentine thinks he's distracted or not giving his all and not responding to the manager, maybe he thinks this is one way to get through to him.

Uhh, we'll see. He sounds like he was "upset" or something with a bad week 3 games, and wasn't getting getting the player he watched on tape on on tv....... and then at then end basically said it's all cool now that he has got on base 7 times in the last 3 game. Seems pretty stupid to me, we shall see if he is "clarifying his remarks" tomorrow. Cool that Youk will need to show up at 6 AM and answer a shitload of questions about this when he is playing fine.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Uhh, isn't everyone else on the site saying the exact same thing?

About Youk? No. I am extremely concerned about how quickly he seems to be aging physically and what that may imply for his performance, but I've never seen anything to suggest that he's not "into the game." Holy crap, take a look at the video of him coming around from first to score the go-ahead run on Papi's double today if you have any doubts on that score.

Youk is a redass, and he's increasingly brittle, and he's no Olympic athlete. But high on the list of Most Bizarre Accusations You Could Make About Kevin Youkilis is "he's not into it."

[E5 Yaz]

Uhh, isn't everyone else on the site saying the exact same thing? Listen, I get that Tito never called guys out in the media before -- but if Valentine thinks he's distracted or not giving his all and not responding to the manager, maybe he thinks this is one way to get through to him.

I guess the first question I'd have is how does Valentine know Youk's ability to be into the game prior to this year? BV as much as admitted he didn't get a good sense of players day-to-day by being in the booth

[absintheofmalaise]

Uhh, isn't everyone else on the site saying the exact same thing? Listen, I get that Tito never called guys out in the media before -- but if Valentine thinks he's distracted or not giving his all and not responding to the manager, maybe he thinks this is one way to get through to him.

I would think that the best way to do that would be to talk to him about it in person and not to just blurt it out on the open air. It's one thing for people here to be talking about players Quite another for the manager to call them out on air.

Also, do we know what the question was that elicited that response?

[DukeSox]

I hope the players realize quickly this is just Bobby being Bobby, and learn to brush it off.

[Laser Show]

I hope the players realize quickly this is just Bobby being Bobby, and learn to brush it off.

I know athlete's are a special breed of people, but I agree here. They're all grown men (well maybe not Pedroia...) so they should be able to understand this and not get too worked up about things.

Edited by Laser Show, 15 April 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Sprowl]

Uhh, we'll see. He sounds like he was "upset" or something with a bad week 3 games, and wasn't getting getting the player he watched on tape on on tv....... and then at then end basically said it's all cool now that he has got on base 7 times in the last 3 game. Seems pretty stupid to me, we shall see if he is "clarifying his remarks" tomorrow. Cool that Youk will need to show up at 6 AM and answer a shitload of questions about this when he is playing fine.

Tito went by large sample sizes. Players had to show misperformance, malperformance or nonperformance over an extended period to fall out of favor. He was less mercurial.

Bobby the Fifth is a SSS monarch, er manager. He's still an announcer at heart, with an opinion about everything and everybody. It certainly makes for good copy. Motivation efficacy remains to be seen.

[mauidano]

The typical Boston media will make as much out of this as they possibly can. Don't think Bobby is throwing Youk under the bus at all. Youk is off to a horrendous start. Maybe he is distracted, maybe's not into it as much. Maybe his skill level is dropping off. Maybe just a slow start just because. He hasn't really impressed the shit out of anyone for a couple years now, injuries or not. I see people on these threads calling for Middlebrooks or looking to package Youk off all the time. It is what it is. At this point, I'm inclined to give both Bobby and Youk the benefit of the doubt here. Much ado about very little. Let's not try and rock the boat, it's gonna hit waves and currents on it's own.

[Foulkey Reese]

Much ado about very little. Let's not try and rock the boat, it's gonna hit waves and currents on it's own.

I don't understand this. When was the last time you saw a MLB manager accuse one of his star players of half-assing it after a weeks worth of bad games? When was the last time you saw a MLB manager accuse one of his star players of half-assing it after having a great series? It's just bizarre.

[SoxScout]

He hasn't really impressed the shit out of anyone for a couple years now, injuries or not.

Last year before he got hurt wasn't impressive?

...............OBP.............SLG
April........ .392 ........... .487
May...........377 ........... .485
June .........408 ........... .482
July ........ .377 .............489

[Van Everyman]

Two games ago, people were killing Youk for not covering third on a play to the hole in which Youk didn't go for the ball or cover third and the guy got in uncontested (they were also saying "So much for Bobby the Fifth and his fundamentals")

For all we know, Bobby laid into him in the clubhouse after the game about that and Youkilis replied, "Whatever." Or maybe Youk is on the Josh Beckett "Baseball isn't first in my life anymore" diet. Or maybe Bobby's a dick. The point is, nobody knows what any of these guys are like. So let's just wait and see what's up before assuming it's the latter.

[E5 Yaz]

As much as I think putting the comments out in public is bad form for a sport where things are usually kept in the clubhouse, it is possible BV did talk to Youk before the game today. I'm thinking of that play where he scored from first on the Papi double, then reached back to dramatically slap home plate.

There was some extra fire there, for sure

[JakeRae]

The typical Boston media will make as much out of this as they possibly can. Don't think Bobby is throwing Youk under the bus at all. Youk is off to a horrendous start. Maybe he is distracted, maybe's not into it as much. Maybe his skill level is dropping off. Maybe just a slow start just because. He hasn't really impressed the shit out of anyone for a couple years now, injuries or not. I see people on these threads calling for Middlebrooks or looking to package Youk off all the time. It is what it is. At this point, I'm inclined to give both Bobby and Youk the benefit of the doubt here. Much ado about very little. Let's not try and rock the boat, it's gonna hit waves and currents on it's own.

Where have you seen this? I was leading the shop Youkilis bandwagon all offseason and it was never about Youk not being an impressive player but about a fear that his health isn't going to allow him to be a consistent contributor going forward and a desire to see if the club could get equal value in a trade at a greater area of need than 3B (which they were very deep at entering the offseason). I don't think anyone expressed a desire to see Youk traded except in cases where he returned equal talent at an area of greater need and I have yet to see a single person call for Middlebrooks although that might be happening in game threads. Youk is a true middle of the order bat and has been a consistent 4+ WAR player despite missing substantial time to injury in most recent years. This team needs him to continue to be that player.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Frankly, I just can't worry about the delicate fee-fees of professional baseball players very much anymore. I find it exhausting. Granted, this was an unusual thing for a manager to say about a player -- but so what? Kevin Youkilis is a grown-up. He'll deal with it. I don't know if this sort of quote from his manager will make Youkilis play better. If it does, great. But I do know that if it makes him play worse, that's on him.

[Savin Hillbilly]

I see people on these threads calling for Middlebrooks or looking to package Youk off all the time.

And I've been one of 'em. But that's because I fear Youk is physically on his way out, not because I think he isn't trying. And even if he isn't trying, and Bobby knows it, what's the point of saying it in public? I'm not worried about Youk's "delicate fee-fee" either. It just seems to me that this kind of public reaming is much more likely to make things worse than better.

And it's bogus to say that if it makes things worse, that's on Youk. It's on Bobby, because it's Bobby's job to think about that kind of stuff and to discipline his words and actions accordingly. It's not his job to be as confused as Nigel, as it were.

[E5 Yaz]

espn

The Red Sox have an 11 a.m. start for Monday's Patriots Day game against the Tampa Bay Rays. The Sox clubhouse is scheduled to open at 8, and Youkilis can expect to receive questions about Valentine's comments when he arrives. Valentine is scheduled to address the media at 9:15.

[E5 Yaz]

Frankly, I just can't worry about the delicate fee-fees of professional baseball players very much anymore. I find it exhausting. Granted, this was an unusual thing for a manager to say about a player -- but so what? Kevin Youkilis is a grown-up. He'll deal with it. I don't know if this sort of quote from his manager will make Youkilis play better. If it does, great. But I do know that if it makes him play worse, that's on him.

Oddly, what I find exhausting is manipulative "geniuses" who treat the players on their teams as lab rats. "Ooh, let's see what happens if we challenge Youk's commitment in public. Yeah, that'll show people I'm a miracle worker!"

The quote will not "make Youkilis play better." Youk will play better because he's an established major leaguer whose intensity and effort have never been an issue.

The cynic in me sees valentine picking a guy who's having a slow start and questioning his effort, exactly so he can take the credit once Youk gets hot

[geoduck no quahog]

Then again, maybe Youkilis isn't as physically or emotionally into the game as should be, and maybe getting on base will shake him out of what the Manager sees as distraction or lethargy.

And maybe we have no clue whatsoever of what goes on in the clubhouse.

[TheoShmeo]

My first reaction to the comment on Youks was "WTF." And I still don't see the advantage in going that far and that negative. At the same time, Doc Rivers ripped his entire team after a recent loss and no one seemed to notice. Something about them playing "too cool." My point is that we all seem to be a lot more protective of baseball players when the manager uses the media.

[Laschelle Tarver]

My first reaction to the comment on Youks was "WTF." And I still don't see the advantage in going that far and that negative. At the same time, Doc Rivers ripped his entire team after a recent loss and no one seemed to notice. Something about them playing "too cool." My point is that we all seem to be a lot more protective of baseball players when the manager uses the media.

Much different, and much more divisive, to rip one particular player publicly versus the performance of the whole team IMHO.

Edited by Laschelle Tarver, 16 April 2012 - 05:38 AM.

[BigJimEd]

As much as I think putting the comments out in public is bad form for a sport where things are usually kept in the clubhouse, it is possible BV did talk to Youk before the game today. I'm thinking of that play where he scored from first on the Papi double, then reached back to dramatically slap home plate.

There was some extra fire there, for sure

Maybe Valentine did but then why bring it up publicly? If he addressed the issue privately and that seemed to work, at least temporarily, I don't see a reason to bring it up publicly.

The timing just seems strange. Youk is obviously off to a slow start but has been on base 7 of his last 13 PAs. Why call him out now a week and a half into the season?

I don't think this incident will be more than a minor distraction for a day or two. As an isolated incident it seems a little strange with the timing but overall not a big deal.

[geoduck no quahog]

So, the premise of this latest much-ado is that a baseball manager should not call out a player in public.

Is there evidence that backs up this sentiment?

[miracleofmidre]

It seems like even a lot of us fans are still in Tito hangover, expecting the current manager to deploy the exact same tactics as the prior manager, which tactics may have run their course after a number of years. I personally have no clue if this is the "right" method to motivate, to openly criticize Youk (I am personally dubious of the "efficacy" of this move, to cite Sprowl, but that's based on my own style in my place of business, totally different from a baseball clubhouse with media vultures everywhere) but I don't see any reason to judge that it is a horrifying mistake, or will be ineffective, or isn't based on Valentine's reasonable observation of the team and his own player's performance and effort over 45 days. Maybe Valentine really hasn't seen enough out of Youk, hard turn at third yesterday notwithstanding, and doesn't have anything left to say in private. What would we say if Valentine had alluded to continuing and tacit injury problems (i.e. "Youk is still coming off his injury, a serious one") maybe we'd be much more accepting of the manager. But perhaps Youk won't cop to being hurt to his manager, maybe Youk over and over has told Valentine there's no pain left, that he is 100% healthy. We'd probably cut Valentine slack for injury attribution, but maybe Youk wouldn't, that might be even more offensive to him then being called out for not being emotional enough. These pro athletes are weird, the way I see it.

I guess at this point, after last year, why do many of us still want the manager to protect his players at all costs?

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

Does anyone know the context of the question?

If the question was: Has Youkilis been distracted by his contract situation or personal life or Pedroia's incredibly large package for a man that short?

and Bobby responds: Youks may have been "not as into the game" for a few days, but now I see that fire back in full force.

It could be that Bobby was trying to pay Youks a comment and worded it poorly....


If the question was: to what do you attribute Youks slow start?

and Bobby said: Youks doesn't seem as "into the game" as I remember from my exhaustive research into his career.

Then it is indeed Bobby calling Youks to the carpet..................... and it's pretty shitty


Is there any chance that Youks isn't playing as balls to the wall, because in past years that seems to get him hurt? maybe he's trying to protect himself from a stupid injury.

[TheoShmeo]

I guess at this point, after last year, why do many of us still want the manager to protect his players at all costs?

Good point. Coddling this group of players seemed to have run its course.

But perhaps the reason why many of us bristle at these comments isn't out of slavish devotion to the Tito Method but rather because it isn't all or nothing. Valentine need not protect his players at all costs. When they show demonstrable lack of effort, calling them out seems fine and even efficacious. My gut, though, is that there's a middle ground that Bobby might have crossed over with these comments at this time.

You're right, though. We don't really know much about this clubhouse and what impact such comments will have. Athletes are unique animals and the clubhouse is its own place. I just hope Bobby knows what he's doing vis-a-vis Youks and the rest of the team, as this seems counter intuitive.

[someoneanywhere]

You guys who want to frame this as a coddling/tough love thing, or a Tito/Bobby thing, or a motivation/entitlement thing, are missing the mark. I'm one of the guys driving the end-of-entitlement bus, so I understand it. But that is not where this is going, whatever may have prompted Booby to say it. From Youk's perspective -- no matter what he might say this morning -- this he will likely see as the entering wedge -- the first comment designed to make the way easier for moving him out of Boston to make way for WMB. I am not saying this is what prompted the comment, only that Youk will take it that way.

[JimBoSox9]

So, the premise of this latest much-ado is that a baseball manager should not call out a player in public.

The premise is that its dumb to do so when A) it's likely the player's underperformance is due to injury, and B) he's played much better the past couple games.

Is there evidence that backs up this sentiment?

Such a preponderance of it that the burden of proof needs to go in the other direction.

[jacklamabe65]

Imagine if SoSH had been around when Dick Williams was managing in Boston. Just ask "Cement Head" George Scott.

[ngruz25]

Maybe the comment has something to with the game against Detroit that Youkilis was out of the line-up for. Perhaps Bobby sat him for a reason, and he didn't like Youk's reaction.

I won't draw any conclusions because I'm not in that clubhouse every day. I should think that if we learned something from last season it's that there may be stuff going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

@GordonEdes: "Youkilis 'surprised" and "confused" by Valentine comments"

@GordonEdes: "More Youk: Everyone here knows I go out and play with emotion. The only time there has ever been a question is bec I've been too emotional''

@GordonEdes: "Youkilis said Valentine had not raised the issue before telling WHDH.. He said he was in bed at 9:30 when his agent, Joe Bick, called."

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Way to go BobbyV!

I hate rooting for the Mets.

[PaulinMyrBch]

OK Gordon, now head over to Bobby's office and lets get the full picture.

[Stu Nahan]

My first reaction to the comment on Youks was "WTF." And I still don't see the advantage in going that far and that negative. At the same time, Doc Rivers ripped his entire team after a recent loss and no one seemed to notice. Something about them playing "too cool." My point is that we all seem to be a lot more protective of baseball players when the manager uses the media.

Not to mention Doc has built up a lot more capital with his players than Bobby V has with his group. These comments really serve no positive purpose. The team came home, won three in a row and settled things down. Now Valentine says something stupid and rocks the boat. It's simply not a smart thing to do, especially with the press corps in Boston.

[yecul]

I could give this a pass if it was the last bullet used rather than (one of) the first. BV hadn't talked directly to Youkilis? He used the media to handle that? That seems like a poor approach for any player, especially a veteran.

[Gambler7]

Rob Bradford ‏ @bradfo
Pedroia: 'I really don't know what Bobby is trying to do but that's not the way we go about our stuff around here'

John Tomase ‏ @jtomase
Pedroia with firm rebuke of Valentine: "That's not the way we do things here." Adds that maybe that works "in Japan."

Edited by Gambler7, 16 April 2012 - 07:44 AM.

[DanoooME]

And just wait and see what happens after The Bobby Valentine Show debuts Thursday at 6 PM.

Only
On
NESN

[rembrat]

Love, love, love Pedroia standing up for his teammate. Valentine picked the wrong set of dudes to try and bully. That shit isnt going to fly with this club.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Rob Bradford ‏ @bradfo
Pedroia: 'I really don't know what Bobby is trying to do but that's not the way we go about our stuff around here'

John Tomase ‏ @jtomase
Pedroia with firm rebuke of Valentine: "That's not the way we do things here." Adds that maybe that works "in Japan."

Well, if the strategy was "unite the team by making the manager the bad guy," it worked.

The first part if Pedroia's comment is fair. The part about Japan is a cheap shot -- but also has an element of truth. In Japan the manager is the unquestioned king. At the same time, it would be quite rare for a manager to make a public comment about a player simply because it's quite rare for a manager or a player to comment publicly about anything except in the most vague and general terms in Japan.

[PaulinMyrBch]

And Youks is NOT in the lineup today. Punto at 3rd, batting 7th.

Aviles
Pedroia
Gonz
Ortiz
Ross
Sweeney
Punto
Salty
McD

[Pumpsie]

I think this is more a case of Bobby trying to point out that Youks is playing better recently and screwing it up with too much information than anything else. More of a case of being a chatty Cathy than a manipulative psychologist. He should have simply said "it was good to see Youks start getting some walks recently and getting really dialed in this weekend" instead of adding "well, throughout Spring Training and the first few games he seemed like he was distracted or something, and he wasn't his usual work the count self and this was a point of discussion that came up in my talks with Ben as to what the heck was up with Youkilis this year" addition. Valentine has to dial back the total honesty babbling bit and be more diplomatic and circumspect when talking to the press. He has to realize that they are not his "friends" and that a little aside in a conversation with a buddy is going to reverberate like an atomic bomb once it gets broadcasted to the world. He should KNOW this already, but, apparently, he doesn't.

[glennhoffmania]

I'm glad that Pedroia said something. Bobby's antics have already become tiresome. I hoped for the best but expected the worst when they hired him. I really don't think this is going to end well but I hope that I'm wrong.

[Savin Hillbilly]

At the same time, Doc Rivers ripped his entire team after a recent loss and no one seemed to notice. Something about them playing "too cool."

The bolded bits make Rivers' comments a completely different thing.