184 replies to this topic

[Spaulding Smails]

It would be pretty hard to find a someone with no links to an NHL team who is qualified for this position.

Just screams to me that a panel of 3 former NHL referees would be ideal. Terry Gregson (current director of officiating), Kerry Fraser and (insert another qualified former ref here).

[Myt1]

I am cross-posting this from the Caps-Bruins thread because it might fit more here...

I just saw that Neal got 1 game. WHAT IN THE FUCK? I'm pretty calm and rational usually, but I feel that this is outrageous. Neal got NOTHING for leaping (which Shanahan acknowledges!) into Couturier and 1 game for the Giroux hit? Couturier was shaken up on the play before returning (whereas Peverley was totally fine) which supposedly influences these decisions. Also, Neal has been suspended before and this year alone has had 2 warning calls and a fine while Backstrom has never had any disciplinary issues? The fuck? Somehow what Backstrom did was WORSE than Neal's initial hit and Weber's slam and equal to Neal's second run? Wow.

I could not agree more. What a fucking joke.

[LondonSox]

I really cannot believe this Shit. 1 game. He headhunted the guys who scored hat tricks and have both had concussions this year and both critical to how the flyers have been winning inside what one minute of play.
One was helped off the ice the other was clearly groggy too.
The result is he could play 3 more games.
You wonder why fighting is rising in the playoffs.
The nhl is flirting with disaster here. If the league won't defend garbage play that everyone watching with any idea what hockey is was appalled by the players will have to do it themselves. Oh and get bigger suspensions for.
Someone start the class action lawsuit on these morons. You cannot ignore intent. The idea is not just to punish deliberate injury but the concept of it. Have they noticed the nfl reaction to the bounty situation? Because they can afford lawyers?

Fucking joke. Plus having neal play again in this series is like throwing a powder keg in already lit.
Your only hope to avoid neal being hunted if there is a game 5 is that you trust the flyers are bigger than that and don't want to risk the series. Brave.

[WoburnDiaspora]

So how long does Raffi Torres sit? I'm hoping until next season.

[jmm57]

I really cannot believe this Shit. 1 game. He headhunted the guys who scored hat tricks and have both had concussions this year and both critical to how the flyers have been winning inside what one minute of play.
One was helped off the ice the other was clearly groggy too.
The result is he could play 3 more games.
You wonder why fighting is rising in the playoffs.
The nhl is flirting with disaster here. If the league won't defend garbage play that everyone watching with any idea what hockey is was appalled by the players will have to do it themselves. Oh and get bigger suspensions for.
Someone start the class action lawsuit on these morons. You cannot ignore intent. The idea is not just to punish deliberate injury but the concept of it. Have they noticed the nfl reaction to the bounty situation? Because they can afford lawyers?

Fucking joke. Plus having neal play again in this series is like throwing a powder keg in already lit.
Your only hope to avoid neal being hunted if there is a game 5 is that you trust the flyers are bigger than that and don't want to risk the series. Brave.

They are turning it into soccer, which is sad, it pays to embellish. If Giroux/Coutuier had rolled around on the ice for 5 minutes before continuing on like nothing happens (Like Mike Smith) than Neal would have gotten 3 games (apparently). My opinion doesn't mean much, but I hate that a player needs to embellish the hit for a scumbag player to get the suspension they deserve. If you are tough/classy and play through the dirty hit as best you can the offending player gets off.

As a Bruins fan I am happy to have Backstrom out for game 4, but there is no way that Backstroms play and Neals plays should warrant the same suspension. Or that Backstroms should be a suspension while Webers was a $2,500 fine. What a joke.

Edited by jmm57, 18 April 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[TheShynessClinic]

So how long does Raffi Torres sit? I'm hoping until next season.

The way things have been going - 2 games.

[Dummy Hoy]

They are turning it into soccer, which is sad, it pays to embellish. If Giroux/Coutuier had rolled around on the ice for 5 minutes before continuing on like nothing happens (Like Mike Smith) than Neal would have gotten 3 games (apparently). My opinion doesn't mean much, but I hate that a player needs to embellish the hit for a scumbag player to get the suspension they deserve. If you are tough/classy and play through the dirty hit as best you can the offending player gets off.

Word was that cameras caught Marchand on the bench telling the training staff he was trying to draw 5 on the spearing call, which sucks. He got speared, it was a penalty, no need for anything extra. Point is that you're correct, and embellishing (ahem Mike Smith) pays off enough that people will try it.

I'll join the crew in advocating retroactive fines and suspensions for this nonsense.

[The Four Peters]

Yeah I have nothing else to add other than what's already been said. It's sad that it's come to this and sadder even that diving and embellishing is being endorsed by Shanahan with his words and his actions.

[cshea]

Word was that cameras caught Marchand on the bench telling the training staff he was trying to draw 5 on the spearing call, which sucks. He got speared, it was a penalty, no need for anything extra. Point is that you're correct, and embellishing (ahem Mike Smith) pays off enough that people will try it.

I'll join the crew in advocating retroactive fines and suspensions for this nonsense.

The league simply needs to enforce the rule. I don't know why there is such a refusal for the officials to send a guy off for 2 minutes for blatant dives. It's a rule, and a pretty simple one to enforce. If they start putting teams shorthanded for diving, it'll clean right up.

Marchand's display in the 3rd period the other night was embarrassing, it sucks if that is true about him telling the staff he was embellishing. I would be dissappointed if Julien did not talk to Marchand and tell him to cut the shit. Julien's only comments on the Backstrom incident was about how he was proud of Peverley for taking the hit and not flopping around on the ice. Julien said "we don't do that here," so he better talk with Marchand.

Edited by cshea, 18 April 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[j44thor]

Just screams to me that a panel of 3 former NHL referees would be ideal. Terry Gregson (current director of officiating), Kerry Fraser and (insert another qualified former ref here).

Couldn't agree with this more. A panel of former refs would be the ideal solution because they are both impartial and also understand what happens on the ice.

[jmm57]

The league simply needs to enforce the rule. I don't know why there is such a refusal for the officials to send a guy off for 2 minutes for blatant dives. It's a rule, and a pretty simple one to enforce. If they start putting teams shorthanded for diving, it'll clean right up.

Marchand's display in the 3rd period the other night was embarrassing, it sucks if that is true about him telling the staff he was embellishing. I would be dissappointed if Julien did not talk to Marchand and tell him to cut the shit. Julien's only comments on the Backstrom incident was about how he was proud of Peverley for taking the hit and not flopping around on the ice. Julien said "we don't do that here," so he better talk with Marchand.

i totally agree...Marchand plays on the line anyway, and I think he needs to. But someone needs to reign him in if he stars to go too far over.

I would much rather watch the Bruins just not get the calls than watch them flopping all over the ice.

[PBDWake]

The way things have been going - 2 games.

I'm not so sure. Raffi Torres might make the perfect sacrificial lamb that Shanny can hide behind and say he's coming down hard when he needs to. Which, of course, will allow him to rescind the match penalty that James Neal gets in game 5 for smacking Bryz in the head with a coconut if the Pens win tonight.

Edited by PBDWake, 18 April 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[TheShynessClinic]

Just screams to me that a panel of 3 former NHL referees would be ideal. Terry Gregson (current director of officiating), Kerry Fraser and (insert another qualified former ref here).

I think 3 refs would be redundant.

It should be a former Ref, a former player, and a representative (non player) from the NHLPA.

[Myt1]

I'm not so sure. Raffi Torres might make the perfect sacrificial lamb that Shanny can hide behind and say he's coming down hard when he needs to.

Exactly. Torres will get the book thrown at him for succeeding at what Neal tried to do twice in one shift. Shanahan is partially culpable for Hossa's injury.

[Blacken]

It should be a former Ref, a former player, and a representative (non player) from the NHLPA.

Fuck the NHLPA. They're part of the problem, IMO.

[TheShynessClinic]

Fuck the NHLPA. They're part of the problem, IMO.

I'd like to hear the reasoning behind this.

Has the NHLPA ever appealed a suspension on behalf of a player, or even spoken up i/r/t one? I think the NHLPA would be very much in favor of larger suspensions that injure star players.

[PedroSpecialK]

The NHLPA's insistence on a max $2,500 fine when no suspension is assessed is a blight and, frankly, comical.

[Haunted]

Julien's only comments on the Backstrom incident was about how he was proud of Peverley for taking the hit and not flopping around on the ice. Julien said "we don't do that here," so he better talk with Marchand.

I read that as a message to Marchand. If that's the case - and I do this cautiously - I applaud Clode for it.

[Hendu's Gait]

The NHLPA's insistence on a max $2,500 fine when no suspension is assessed is a blight and, frankly, comical.

Agreed. It will never fly, but fines as a % of salary makes most sense to me. Whether the maximum or the actual one imposed.

[Toe Nash]

The biggest problem with Shanny's video on Neal is how he completely ignores the context of the game. The facts that the Pens had been embarrassed two games in a row, were being taunted on their bitter rival's ice and were down by 3 without much time left makes it abundantly clear that Neal was in no way trying to make a hockey play. There's absolutely no excuse for his play and no place for it in the game no matter how rock 'em sock 'em you like your hockey. Just unbelievable.

[PedroSpecialK]

Renaud

Renaud P Lavoie‏ @RenLavoieRDS
Phoenix Coyotes forward Raffi Torres has been suspended indefinitely, pending an in-person hearing Friday, April 20.

Edited by PedroSpecialK, 18 April 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[soxhop411]

Renaud

Feels like a 5+ game suspension

[erfus]

Feels like a 5+ game suspension

Even if the league doesn't have the balls to suspend good players like Neal and Weber for more than zero to one game, there can be incremental progress by throwing the book at guys like Torres who, in addition to being scumbags, are dime-a-dozen players. The league doesn't need Raffi Torres and neither do I.

[octoberaroma]

If Torres isn't gone for the remainder of the playoffs then all I have to say is the NHL officials just don't get it.
They have to give him the boot.

[AimingForYoko]

Torres has to be gone. This doesn't detract from the previous bullshit though.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Did I miss the Torres thing? What did he do?

[FL4WL3SS]

FAUX OUTRAGE

[cshea]

Did I miss the Torres thing? What did he do?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

That's disgraceful.

[AMcGhie]

Just to show how ridiculous Shannahan has become
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKOywERtbig#!
Pane of glass at TD garden suspended indefinitely for illegal hit to the head of David Krejci


edit: bah, screw you formatting. Any ideas anyone?

Edited by AMcGhie, 18 April 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[tims4wins]

[TheRealness]

Just to show how ridiculous Shannahan has become
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKOywERtbig#!
Pane of glass at TD garden suspended indefinitely for illegal hit to the head of David Krejci


edit: bah, screw you formatting. Any ideas anyone?

[LondonSox]

That is terrible. So given neal got no penalty at all for his jumping away from the puck with the player not looking and a hit to the head. He says what neal says and gets away with it?
I mean its very similar to neals right?

[smastroyin]

I realize it makes me a douche and a child and that frontier justice is wrong etc.

But I wish Shanny would not suspend him, and just tell the Hawks that they have open season on that turd for the first five minutes he's on the ice in game 4.

[ForceAtHome]

That is terrible. So given neal got no penalty at all for his jumping away from the puck with the player not looking and a hit to the head. He says what neal says and gets away with it?
I mean its very similar to neals right?

The amusing (maybe not the best word?) thing is that yes, imho, Torres' hit is not too different from Neal's hit on Couturier. The three major differences are that Cout was able to return to the game whereas Hossa was taken off on a backboard, Neal is a star, and Torres has more of a history (though Neal isn't clean). Realistically, I don't think the first two factors should really play into the suspension much, if at all. It's more a travesty that Neal walked away so clean than it is that Torres will likely be an example of NHL justice.

[LondonSox]

To me the real danger I see for these rapes of humanity that are these decisions is that players will defend themselves and their team mates more.
Just think that in game 3 the commentary guys were killing the refs for sending Neal across the ice instead of straight to the dressing room (and sure enough fights resulted).
If Pens Flyers goes to game 5, the flyers could easily (and some would argue justified) go after Neal in some way. In which case (especially if the game is out of hand score wise either way) that game could turn into an utter disaster. All of which could be avoided.
The flyers took the high road and didn't go after Neal in game 3, at which point he ran Giroux with a head shot. The penalty is negliable. But you expect them to take the high road again? How? You've seen there is no penalty for deliberately trying to hurt players here (as long as you are a star). I mean if a flyer had been ejected for starting a fight with neal he would ahve got the SAME penalty (automatically) as the combined two play penalty, for someone with a track record.
I don't want to say leave it to the players on the ice, because that's not in the best interests of the game but seriously what else is there? If you're a star you can get away with (almost literal) murder and won't get suspended and can't be hit in the game because if you are the hitter is suspended, or someone else steps in for the star (see adams/ crosby). I mean fuck you NHL you are ruining the rebirth in popularity of the sport

[Wave em in Wendall]

I've stopped trying to rationalize any of this. The league has completely lost control. They had a chance at a fresh start with Shanahan, but he blew it. They blew it badly.

I hope I don't sound too cynical, but I think it's going to take an external force or an on-ice tragedy to change the culture inside the league offices. If ~100 unnecessary concussions within a season aren't enough, it's gonna take someone getting paralyzed or worse to give the league a wake-up call that it so badly needs. What we've had about 15-20 games so far during the playoffs and I don't think anyone would argue that the game has become a sideshow to the violence on the ice, and that's a fucking shame. The only "clean" series have been NJ/FLA and STL/SJ.

I don't know anything about Canadian politics, but is there any social outrage over how the league is handling itself? I don't mean this to be rah rah America at all, but if the league offices were in the US, i'd imagine there would at least be talk of congressional hearings on this. Congress has had hearings about concussions re: the NFL, steroids re: MLB, and i'm sure there has been oversight into the NBA. I am not unaware that the leagues are relatively immune to regulation, but when people's lives are at stake, it's time for politicians to speak up.

[JimBoSox9]

The outrage over the Neal decision is a great example of why, at least on paper, basing penalties on injury caused makes logical sense.

Intent, even on replay, is inherently subjective, and heavily influenced by how the observer feels about the perpetrator. Unless you think Shanny is flat-out lying, he sees something different than we see. I imagine Pittsburgh fans perceive it differently as well.

It's been awhile since I tried to defend the DPS, because I agree it's been a disaster. But trying to punish intent can't be the answer, because it's tilting at windmills to think there will be consensus on anything but the most extreme incidents.

[LondonSox]

The outrage over the Neal decision is a great example of why, at least on paper, basing penalties on injury caused makes logical sense.

Intent, even on replay, is inherently subjective, and heavily influenced by how the observer feels about the perpetrator. Unless you think Shanny is flat-out lying, he sees something different than we see. I imagine Pittsburgh fans perceive it differently as well.

It's been awhile since I tried to defend the DPS, because I agree it's been a disaster. But trying to punish intent can't be the answer, because it's tilting at windmills to think there will be consensus on anything but the most extreme incidents.

Well no, the weber thing was just as bad. Completely insane that was nothing but a fine as well. The thing is Weber and Neal (though to a lesser extent) are stars. That's concerning, they get away with it while other "lesser" players get slammed so the NHL says they are addressing the issue. This combined with injury rather than intent makes the whole thing a total disgrace.

[j44thor]

But Backstrom is a bigger star than Neal, had no prior history and didn't hurt Pevs in the least.
That might have been the first time all season that a player was suspended because of intent. If Krejci had done the same thing to say Jason Chimera and received a 1game suspension RMPS would have melted by now.

The system is just completely broken, likely the result of having one person with way too much power who he himself has perhaps taken one too many headshots.

[Tony the Pony]

In other news, I guess cunt Rinaldo will be sitting, too.

[kenneycb]

How'd we do when Lucic got it against Montreal three years ago? And there was no decision to suspend, rather a decision to not reverse the suspension. Semantics but an important distinction IMO.

[Terras]

Don't mind me, wrong thread.

Edited by Terras, 18 April 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[Alternate34]

The outrage over the Neal decision is a great example of why, at least on paper, basing penalties on injury caused makes logical sense.

Intent, even on replay, is inherently subjective, and heavily influenced by how the observer feels about the perpetrator. Unless you think Shanny is flat-out lying, he sees something different than we see. I imagine Pittsburgh fans perceive it differently as well.

It's been awhile since I tried to defend the DPS, because I agree it's been a disaster. But trying to punish intent can't be the answer, because it's tilting at windmills to think there will be consensus on anything but the most extreme incidents.

There is an alternative that while harsh, is exactly what the league should go for to end this crap. You punish objective indices of intent. You give little consideration for what a player says. If the stick goes near the head, if the check connects with the jaw, you suspend. You can defend certain actions if a guy suddenly moves and the offender connects with the head because you can see that player's sudden movement on film.

I'll take some of the examples. Neal chipped Giroux's helmet so it became loose. Subjectively, you can argue that Neal was trying to send a warning to Giroux but not make contact with the head. Or maybe he really is a head hunting fuckwad. It doesn't matter. You suspend him a few games because he made contact with the head and he is a repeat offender. Backstrom cross checks Pevs head after the end of play. Maybe he intended to hit the body and got too high. You say fuck it because Backstrom still connected with the head. Now since he isn't a repeat offender, he gets a fine or short suspension.

It's not that hard. You just stop worrying about the accidental part. You judge it based on the form of the hit (leaving your feet, attack on the head, distance skated and momentum gained, etc) and don't give a shit if the player says I didn't mean it. Players will bitch at first and you maintain consistency in the face of it because the ultimate point of the system isn't to punish bad intent but to prevent injury. Players and coaches will bitch that it is changing the game they are used to playing. And of course, that is the point. They are trying to change the game so less players face post concussion symptoms after they retire and so more people will watch.

[Toe Nash]

I agree 100%, a34. Intent doesn't matter. If you really want the hits out of the game, get them out of the game and be consistent and people will adapt. There's no hockey reason why someone needs to get hit in the head, just as there's no football reason for a QB or WR to get hit in the head.

[Myt1]

Intent matters for someone who targets the head and fails, or scores a glancing blow, though, right? Even if Neal had completely whiffed on his shot to Giroux, it was the second time in under a minute that he catapulted himself at someone's head. Clear intent like that, in a game that was out of reach and control, should be punished even more harshly.

[Alternate34]

Intent matters for someone who targets the head and fails, or scores a glancing blow, though, right? Even if Neal had completely whiffed on his shot to Giroux, it was the second time in under a minute that he catapulted himself at someone's head. Clear intent like that, in a game that was out of reach and control, should be punished even more harshly.

Sure, but my argument is basically just to use objective evidence of intent. The intent is clear because he catapulted himself at someone's head in the previous minute. Shanny shouldn't be talking about how Neal told him that he was just bracing for impact when he left his skates. He should say, the player travel x distance and jump and made contact with the player's head in the previous minute.

[Myt1]

Agreed. Neal's bullshit excuse was the equivalent of a pitcher saying he didn't hit someone on purpose immediately after throwing two pitches behind the guy that hit a homerun the AB before and threw a Degeneration-X crotch chop at him as he crossed the plate.

Edited by Myt1, 19 April 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Greg29fan]

In other news, I guess cunt Rinaldo will be sitting, too.

nope, not a fine, not a suspension, nothing. I get the Neal talk on here, but at least he's a hockey player. Rinaldo is a pimple on the ass of progress.

[Average Reds]

nope, not a fine, not a suspension, nothing. I get the Neal talk on here, but at least he's a hockey player. Rinaldo is a pimple on the ass of progress.

You should be happy - the Flyers are much worse with him on the team.