20 replies to this topic

[Lose Remerswaal]

Who says there's nothing new under the sun?

Rhode Island Rampage vs. Connecticut Constitution

[Worst Trade Evah]

High level ultimate is an amazing spectator experience. When the CT team is home (at CCSU) I will definitely try to attend a game. I used to play pretty seriously, but it's been years and years now. Thanks for the heads-up!

[JRedburn]

I played a lot of high level ultimate and many of my old teammates still play, so I'm pretty excited about any new developments that push the sport forward in terms of visibility and skill level. That said, based on the way it is set up I expect this won't come close to the level at Club Nationals each Fall, but hopefully they'll do a good job bringing in new fans and focusing on the marketing and PR aspects.

[Dollar]

Yeah, I don't really expect this to take off in any sort of way. They've tried live coverage of Nationals on the CBS College Sports Network in the past and that didn't seem to go anywhere (very boring commentary and strange camera angles doomed it from the start), but I'm hopeful this will at least convince more young people to take up the sport. It looks like they're live streaming the Rhode Island-Connecticut game online.

Personally, I know I'll be watching a few of these games because I've played with and against a bunch of people on the RI and CT teams. If they do it right, it could make for some good watching.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Strange camera angles? Seems a little odd: I would have thought that the typical soccer, football, and lacrosse camera angles would serve ultimate well.

(FTR, there's no "frisbee" in the sport's name. Although the Wham-O brand is by far the best known by the general public, their products are rarely used for game discs. I have almost universally played with DisCraft discs.)

[SumnerH]

Strange camera angles? Seems a little odd: I would have thought that the typical soccer, football, and lacrosse camera angles would serve ultimate well.

(FTR, there's no "frisbee" in the sport's name. Although the Wham-O brand is by far the best known by the general public, their products are rarely used for game discs. I have almost universally played with DisCraft discs.)

This is true now and has been since I played in the late 80s/early 90s, but it was originally Ultimate Frisbee (actually, Frisbee Football and then Ultimate Frisbee) and the old name has stuck with a lot of the public--in large part because when you say "Ultimate", people stare blankly, and then you have to say "the thing you know as Ultimate Frisbee but it's really just Ultimate", at which point it would've been easier just to say Ultimate Frisbee in the first place.

(And stay tuned on it coming back: There's ongoing legal action as to whether Frisbee has become genericized and Wham-O failed to defend it, in which case they'll lose the trademark. http://www.finnegan....d5-0281d2b712f3 has some of the details of the players involved.)

[MentalDisabldLst]

Lose, your original link is broken. Here's a link to the professional league's homepage: the American Ultimate Disc League. There are apparently 8 founding teams, although none from NY, Boston or DC (and having a team from Lexington KY, Columbus OH, Indianapolis, and Buffalo...)

I've played in high school, college (Regionals), and continue to play in club and draft leagues since college. And I've said for a long time that Ultimate is probably the most popular sport in America that isn't yet televised. And I agree that a name change from "Ultimate" is probably necessary for the sport to get broader acceptance and get over the "dumb hippie bullshit" hurdle. Ultimate Disc is probably good enough for now, but I'm not sure why "Ultimate" is an important part of the brand. "Basket" is a key element of basketball, a "base" is a key element of baseball, etc. There's nothing descriptive about "Ultimate".

But once televised at a decently high level (probably club nationals and/or college nationals), I think Americans will see a lot to like about the sport. When describing it to people who haven't seen it played before, I tell them:

1) It's kinda like football in that you're trying to advance a ball into an end zone, and if you get it anywhere inside that end zone while it's in your possession, your team gets a score. After a score, there's also a big pause, teams return to opposite ends of the field, and there's a kickoff-like play where the scoring team throws off to the other team (who is now on offense).
2) It's kinda like soccer in that there's a big field and people are spread out and mostly passing the disc back and forth between each other as they try to advance it around the defense - and if they drop it or it's intercepted, it's a turnover and the other team immediately starts going the other way, so you're shifting between offense and defense a lot.
3) It's kinda like basketball in that you can't run with the disc in your hands, you have to pass it back and forth in the air and the other side is always trying to intercept it - and is usually playing man-on-man defense (but sometimes zone). And if you catch it out of bounds, it's a turnover.

With those analogies, people usually can feel out how the game is played - there's really not very many rules. The part about how "there are no referees, players call fouls themselves" will sometimes weird them out, but really, there's not much detail to explain. Throw it around between your team-members, move it towards the end zone and catch it inside the end zone. Stop the other team from doing that. Real simple.

[MentalDisabldLst]

Whoa. Upon reading the official AUDL rules (summary here; complete rules here in PDF), there's quite a bit of difference between this and how UPA-style ultimate is normally played.

The no-big-deals:

* Stall count is 7 (usually 10 in college and rec leagues, but this will help the pace and isn't totally unreasonable)
* You can only start a stall count if you're within 10 feet of the handler (reasonable, sometimes a house rule)
* No metal cleats, only rubber
* 2 1/2 min breaks after 1st and 3rd quarters; 15-ish minute halftime (which is very long in ultimate time)
* Pulls that land in-bounds and roll out are in-bounded at the last in-bounds point they touched. Pulls that initially land out-of-bounds are bricked (you get it either in the middle at the point where it went out, or at the brick line, 20 yards off the defending endzone, whichever is better for the receiving team).
* Catching a disc partly in-bounds and partly out-of-bounds is ruled out-of-bounds (and a turnover). Same as football, although most rec leagues play that the line is in-bounds, or at least if you're partly in, you're in.
* Offsides on a pull: If receiving team is offsides, they get the disc at their endzone line. If pulling team is offsides, receiving team gets the disc at midfield. What happened to a re-pull?

The doozies (to me, anyway):

* It's a timed game (like soccer or basketball), not the usual first-team-to-X-points (like volleyball) system
* 4 quarters of 12 minutes each, and 5-minute OT periods. OT is sudden-death starting with the 2nd OT.
* The scoring team gets 40 seconds after a score to signal readiness for a pull, and another 20 to execute the pull - and the clock runs the whole time (meaning if you score with >1 min left, you can just pocket the disc and the quarter ends)
* Stall counts are kept by an official, and are silent - not called out. This would really mess with any club team player who's used to stall counts by the point mark.
* Double-teams on the handler are allowed, but not triple-teams
* Lots of penalties result in 5 or 10-yard penalties (or half the distance to the goal line, if shorter), instead of the usual restart of the stall count or do-overs. A pick is a 10-yard penalty rather than a catch-up by the defense and immediate resumption of play.
* It's unclear whether players and coaches can overturn judgment calls by officials (and if so, if the officials are really Observers moreso than Referees) and under what circumstances

Lots to think about. I'll probably watch if I'm around any games though. I really wonder if the players themselves are "professional" or "semi-professional" much like club teams.

Edited by MentalDisabldLst, 12 April 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[Dollar]

Yeah, there has been a lot of disagreement in the Ultimate community the past few years about a lot of those issues, primarily the increased use of observers and referees at major tournaments. I've never tried playing in a refereed game, but I have always enjoyed self-officiating and can't imagine any other way. However, at a high level like the AUDL, I can see why they're going with a more official-looking set of rules for fans used to sports with refs.

* Stall counts are kept by an official, and are silent - not called out. This would really mess with any club team player who's used to stall counts by the point mark.
* Double-teams on the handler are allowed, but not triple-teams

I don't think the refereed stall counts will mess with people as much as you'd think. Leaving the counting up to someone else will let the marker focus on his mark and listening to the sideline for help. And I think it will really help in that 8-9-10 stall range, when it seems like most people speed up their stall count somewhat and leads to a lot of contested stalls.

I'm not sure how I feel about the other two rules. Why allow double teams on the mark? I love poaching in the lane and shutting down the throwing lane as much as anyone, but I've always liked how the second defender needed to stay 10 feet from the thrower. That will be an interesting thing to watch when a defense throws a trap zone, for sure.

Edited by Dollar, 12 April 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Mr. Wednesday]

* You can only start a stall count if you're within 10 feet of the handler (reasonable, sometimes a house rule)

Unless something has changed recently, that's a UPA rule.

* Pulls that land in-bounds and roll out are in-bounded at the last in-bounds point they touched. Pulls that initially land out-of-bounds are bricked (you get it either in the middle at the point where it went out, or at the brick line, 20 yards off the defending endzone, whichever is better for the receiving team).

Isn't that the UPA rule as well?

[MentalDisabldLst]

Yeah, there has been a lot of disagreement in the Ultimate community the past few years about a lot of those issues, primarily the increased use of observers and referees at major tournaments. I've never tried playing in a refereed game, but I have always enjoyed self-officiating and can't imagine any other way. However, at a high level like the AUDL, I can see why they're going with a more official-looking set of rules for fans used to sports with refs.

I agree, I think that will help with the professionalizing. On the other hand, one really adorable aspect of ultimate is how it's self-officiated and thus has a claim to better sportsmanship than all those other damn commercialized sports. I like how players can overturn an official's call if it's in their favor but they think the other team got screwed. I'm on the fence as to whether they should be able to overturn a call where they themselves got screwed. What happened to "best perspective" on line calls?

I don't think the refereed stall counts will mess with people as much as you'd think. Leaving the counting up to someone else will let the marker focus on his mark and listening to the sideline for help. And I think it will really help in that 8-9-10 stall range, when it seems like most people speed up their stall count somewhat and leads to a lot of contested stalls.

I don't have a problem with the refereed ones, I have a problem with the counts being silent. You should know where you're at, when you need to punt or hammer or risk something, etc.

Unless something has changed recently, that's a UPA rule.

In the leagues I play in, it's commonly said that you can start a stall count from anywhere on the field. On the other hand, I've heard the 10-foot rule before, so I assume it's a house rule in many places.

Isn't that the UPA rule as well?

The part that's ambiguous to me about pulls is, if they land in in the end zone and roll out the back or side of the end zone, do you get to take it up to your goal line, or do you have to start at the point it rolled out, even if within your own end zone? All the leagues I've ever played in including college have said you can advance it to your own goal line.

[Mr. Wednesday]

In the leagues I play in, it's commonly said that you can start a stall count from anywhere on the field. On the other hand, I've heard the 10-foot rule before, so I assume it's a house rule in many places.

11th edition rules

II.K defines the "marker" as the defensive player within 3 m of the pivot point (or the point where the disc will be put in play if the disc is not in play).

Only the marker can stall the disk (XIV.A.2), and if they go farther away than 3 m and then return, they have to restart the count (XIV.A.4).

As far as I know, this is a longstanding rule, although the distance was 10 ft before they metricized the rules (3 m is 9.8 ft). I think your house rules are exceptional on this point, or else you play with a lot of people who are not familiar with the UPA/USA Ultimate rule.

The part that's ambiguous to me about pulls is, if they land in in the end zone and roll out the back or side of the end zone, do you get to take it up to your goal line, or do you have to start at the point it rolled out, even if within your own end zone? All the leagues I've ever played in including college have said you can advance it to your own goal line.

Advance to the goal line, yes. I didn't realize that was the distinction you were making on that point, so I think we're in agreement.

[Worst Trade Evah]

Yes, you always had to be within range to call a stall count. At least that was true 20 years ago when I played in clubs. In a scramble on a turnover, the defense needs to figure out who's covering the disc -- you can't have some random guy down the field yelling out counts.

I would think a silent 7 second count will force a huge number of turnovers and be a pretty exhausting game to play. Pretty tough on the refs too. That's a ton of clock resetting. The referees will be running in and waving off plays a lot, won't they? Probably less hucking too I guess, since those plays just take a little longer to develop sometimes.

I always thought a pull that landed in the end zone and rolled out was brought up to the goal line, closest to where it rolled out.

I have mixed feelings about referees, but don't see how it's avoidable in a professional league. I really hope they're successful.

Edited by Worst Trade Evah, 13 April 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[Dollar]

I don't have a problem with the refereed ones, I have a problem with the counts being silent. You should know where you're at, when you need to punt or hammer or risk something, etc.

Oh wow, I didn't even see that part. I totally agree, and when combined with a shorter stall count, it's going to screw with a lot of players. I don't even get what the advantage would be to having it silent... seems pretty dumb without a shot-clock like device on the field.

I always thought a pull that landed in the end zone and rolled out was brought up to the center of the front goal line. If it rolled out on the sideline, it's a brick, and centered on the field.

The rules have changed a few times over the years, but at least in the last 10 years, it's been like this:
Disc lands OB - you play it at brick in center of field, or center of field where it went out (whichever is more advantageous to offense)
Disc lands in bounds (not in end zone) and rolls out - you play it at the sideline at the point where it went out
Disc lands in end zone - play it from where it lies
Disc lands in end zone and rolls out side of zone - play disc from front end zone cone
Disc lands in end zone and rolls out back - walk disc straight up to end zone line from where it went out the back

Edited by Dollar, 13 April 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[MentalDisabldLst]

Yeah, that's the way I've played, Dollar, except for this one:

Disc lands in end zone and rolls out side of zone - play disc from front end zone cone

Typically, if on the pull the disc rolls out the sideline from the endzone (or even, sometimes, the field), the offense gets to "middle" it, but not advance it past the point where it rolled out. But if you say those are the official, 11th Ed rules, then I'll believe you. Just not the way that pickup, college or rec leagues are normally played. High-end club play, maybe, but at that level, allowing a pull to roll OB is pretty rare - since the offense wants to seize the moments they have on the pull.

[Dollar]

Yeah, that's the way I've played, Dollar, except for this one:

Typically, if on the pull the disc rolls out the sideline from the endzone (or even, sometimes, the field), the offense gets to "middle" it, but not advance it past the point where it rolled out. But if you say those are the official, 11th Ed rules, then I'll believe you. Just not the way that pickup, college or rec leagues are normally played. High-end club play, maybe, but at that level, allowing a pull to roll OB is pretty rare - since the offense wants to seize the moments they have on the pull.

I might just be mis-remembering that rule since I haven't played in a couple years. Here is the relevant 11th edition rule:

• If the disc initially hits in-bounds and then becomes out-of-bounds before being touched by the receiving team, it is put into play at the spot on the playing field proper (i.e., excluding the end zones) nearest to where it first crossed the perimeter line to become out-of-bounds.
• If the disc initially hits in-bounds and then becomes out-of-bounds after being touched by the receiving team, it is put into play at the spot on the playing field nearest to where it first crossed the perimeter line to become out-of-bounds.
• http://www.usaultima...tion_rules.aspx

I take that to mean you'd play it at the cone, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Edited by Dollar, 13 April 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[MentalDisabldLst]

So, games start tomorrow. Are they having any sort of live video stream or anything? I have to imagine many of us would drop $1 to watch a pro-level ultimate frisbee match over YouStream or something.

[Dollar]

So, games start tomorrow. Are they having any sort of live video stream or anything? I have to imagine many of us would drop $1 to watch a pro-level ultimate frisbee match over YouStream or something.

"The AUDL is pleased to announce that many of the games will be available to view worldwide through online pay-per-view. Live streaming games will be available for $9.95 and game replays will be available for $7.95. Week one offerings include Connecticut Constitution @ Rhode Island Rampage, Indianapolis AlleyCats @ Columbus Cranes, and Detroit Mechanix @ Bluegrass Revolution. Future pay-per-view games will be listed on the league website (www.theaudl.com) throughout the season. With website visitors from over 100 countries, we look forward to bringing AUDL games to households around the world!"

Meh. Seems like they should have had a free preview the first week or something. I can't imagine paying $10 to watch a game when I can pay $20 to watch the Red Sox for a month.

[JakeRae]

7 second stalls are a non-factor. 7 seconds is right around how much time you actually have in the traditional 10 second stall that is counted by the marker and always counted too fast. 7 seconds and timed accurately might be a tad faster, but it's not a huge difference. In fact, I'm pretty sure they picked 7 seconds because that was about how much time players are used to.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Oh wow, I didn't even see that part. I totally agree, and when combined with a shorter stall count, it's going to screw with a lot of players. I don't even get what the advantage would be to having it silent... seems pretty dumb without a shot-clock like device on the field.

Basketball does just fine with silent five-second and ten-second counts.

But if you say those are the official, 11th Ed rules, then I'll believe you. Just not the way that pickup, college or rec leagues are normally played.

I've played in rec leagues 1000 miles apart, one in a big city and one in a medium-sized metropolitan area, and in each instance, we played UPA rules. The exceptions were that in Houston, there was a no foot block rule, and in Michiana, I believe we didn't enforce the "dropped pull is a turnover" rule. We certainly did play the UPA rules on where the pull was played.

7 second stalls are a non-factor. 7 seconds is right around how much time you actually have in the traditional 10 second stall that is counted by the marker and always counted too fast. 7 seconds and timed accurately might be a tad faster, but it's not a huge difference. In fact, I'm pretty sure they picked 7 seconds because that was about how much time players are used to.

Maybe it's different with high-level ultimate; at the rec level, I've never found that people stall too fast, rather the opposite. Ten seconds is quicker than you think.

[MentalDisabldLst]

Basketball does just fine with silent five-second and ten-second counts.

Yeah, but that's not for routine items that happen multiple times on every possession - like a consideration of the shot clock. The analogous item in basketball to ultimate's stall count is the shot clock. And there, every player can see for himself what it's at, because it's in huge red numbers right above the basket. No such visual-check exists for the ultimate player.

I've played in rec leagues 1000 miles apart, one in a big city and one in a medium-sized metropolitan area, and in each instance, we played UPA rules. The exceptions were that in Houston, there was a no foot block rule, and in Michiana, I believe we didn't enforce the "dropped pull is a turnover" rule. We certainly did play the UPA rules on where the pull was played.

Yes, my NYC league (MUD) has recently instituted a no-foot-block rule for both rec and competitive leagues and I think the other major NYC league (UltiRec) is implementing it either this season or next. In pickup games, we commonly play-on from a dropped pull, but in league games it's usually enforced as a turnover (unless the dropper is a total rookie, in which case mulligans are usually asked for and granted).

"The AUDL is pleased to announce that many of the games will be available to view worldwide through online pay-per-view. Live streaming games will be available for $9.95 and game replays will be available for $7.95. Week one offerings include Connecticut Constitution @ Rhode Island Rampage, Indianapolis AlleyCats @ Columbus Cranes, and Detroit Mechanix @ Bluegrass Revolution. Future pay-per-view games will be listed on the league website (www.theaudl.com) throughout the season. With website visitors from over 100 countries, we look forward to bringing AUDL games to households around the world!"

Meh. Seems like they should have had a free preview the first week or something. I can't imagine paying $10 to watch a game when I can pay $20 to watch the Red Sox for a month.

Seriously, that's crazy. I'd pay $1 or even $2 to watch any given game, or maybe $20 for a season pass, but $10 for a game when the equivalent in-person tickets are $11? Madness. Do they think they're the UFC?