62 replies to this topic

[Sampo Gida]

I thought it would be interesting to start a thread recording Bobby V's pitching usage to see if we can detect any observable differences between him and Tito, or conventional pitching usage. He does have 1 more reliever than Tito usually carries at this point.

To recap the first 4 games, we have:

Game 1, 7 strong innings by Lester, pitch count 99. Tight game, 0-1,

Padilla for 1/3 IP in the 8th giving up a run, Morales 2/3 in the 8th, Melancon for 1/3 in the 9th, Aceves for 2 batters, no outs in 9th allowing the walkoff hit, run charged to Melancon

Off day

Game 2, 4 2/3 awful innings from Beckett, pitch count 83 (7 ER), Blowout, 0-7.

1 1/3 from Atchison, 2/3 from Albers, 1/3 from Thomas and 1 from Bowden

Game 3, 4 awful innngs from Buchholz, pitch count 78 (7 ER), tie game, 7-7.

4 strong shut out innings from Padilla, pitch count 51, Aceves in the 9th for a 3 run save, gives up 3 run HR, gets no outs, BS,tie game , Morales in for 2 strong innings, Melancon in the 11th for a 2 run save, gets 1 out and gets a BS and walk off Loss, allowing 3 runs

Game 4. 5 decent innings from Doubront, pitch count 101, down 0-2, Atchison for 3 strong shut out innings, pitch count 31, Aceves in for the 9th inning 2 run save, and gets it, Atchison getting the W.

Observation. SP usage seems typical thus far, both SP'ers with early hooks allowed 7 ER, which is a tyical pull them point.

Bullpen usage seemed a bit quick to pull in game 1, but thats the first game of the year with plenty of fresh arms. Padilla and Atchison were left in for awhile in their most recent games. 4 innings by Padilla seems a bit long except he is a starter and was stretched out in ST competing for the 5th spot before being injured.

In 2011, Tito used a RP'er for 3 or more IP and more than 30 pitches 17 times. Max number of pitches by a RP'er was 46 by Atchison.

No pitcher has worked more than 2 consecutive days this far. Only Aceves has pitched in 3 games.

So far, except for game 1 where I would question the quick hook on Melancon, I think Bobby V's pitching usage has been pretty good, but
don't see anything unusual about his usage.

Obviously, this is a small sample of 4 games. but will keep monitoring during the season for any signs of unusual usage.

edit, couple more stats for benchmarking purposes.

Number of times a RP was used to record 4 or more outs in 2011. 127

Number of times a SP was pulled before completing 5 IP. 30 (23 of those times the pitcher had allowed less than 7 ER)

Edited by Sampo Gida, 10 April 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[Sampo Gida]

Game 5. Bard goes 5+ innings, leaves the game down 1-3 after 96 pitches following an IF single and men on 1st and 3rd.

In comes the LOOGY JThomas to face a lefty, and he loads the bases with a walk. Bobby V leaves him in to face a RHB and Arencibia promptly gets a hit putting Toronto up 1-5. Thomas finishes the inning, giving up 1 of his own runs, and 2 IR.

Bowden for 2 innings, 1 run, 30 pitches

Red Sox lose 3-7 after scoring 2 in the 9th

The problem in this game is leaving in Thomas ( nobody else was even warmed up). According to Gordon Edes, Bobby V after the game admitted it was a dumb move.

https://twitter.com/#!/GordonEdes

Valentine calls it a "dumb move" by him to leave Thomas in to face Arencibia with bases loaded in the 6tth, when 3-1 became 5-1

Mistakes happen, he recognizes it as a mistake, move on.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 10 April 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

The dumb move was bringing in Thomas in the first place. I understand he's still trying to get a feel for what he has in the pen so I'll take it at face value for now, but Thomas just isn't good. I am thoroughly disappointed that he hasn't been sent down or DFA'd yet today, it is still early though.

Part of me thinks that if Tito were managing the game last night Bard would probably have seen one more batter before he got the hook. I don't disagree with him getting pulled when he did I just think he'd have been given the chance.

Lets hope that the IF defense looks a little less perforated than it did tonight away from the carpet, or Bobby V's pitching usage isn't going to matter.

[Merkle's Boner]

I am interested to see what Padilla's recovery time is out of the Pen. Was he available last night? Probably not. Is he available tonight? I would hope so. I know he has primarily been a starter so we will see how many back to backs he can do.

Either way, Morales sure as hell should have been available last night and he would have been the better lefty option over Thomas in the 6th.

[Back Bay]

Even if Bard was at 200 pitches, I would still kept him in over bringing in Justin Thomas. Why Bobby? Why?

[alwyn96]

If Thomas is on the team, he's a LOOGY and should be able to get the lefty out. That is the only reason for Justin Thomas. If the dude walks the one lefty he's supposed to get out, then he is totally useless. I can see bringing Thomas in (although I wasn't loving it - Bard was getting tons of possible DP balls), but leaving him in for Arencibia was, in fact, dumb.

[paulb0t]

Letting Lester throw 116 pitches in his second start of the season was pretty inexcusable.

[Sampo Gida]

Game 6. Lester goes 8 IP (CG) in 1-3 loss, throwing 116 pitches. Despite some loud outs in the 7th, an off day tommorow, and some members of the pen needing work, Bobby elects to have Lester set a personal record for number of pitches this early in the season. Not surprisingly, a 1-2 deficit became a 1-3 deficit, and ultimately, a 1-3 L.

I understand Bobby V's desire to keep the game close, and his reluctance to pull his ace for a reliever he has little confidence in (ala Grady Little in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS), but this goes down in my book as a demerit for Bobby V's pitching usage.

Also, Melancon needed work, this was a good time to get him in there. Now it looks as if he won't pitch until Friday at the earliest after a 5 day layoff.

No big deal, the outcome probably does not change, even if Lester got pulled earlier and Melancon had a clean inning. However, one wonders if Santos pitches the same w/o that insurance run. 1 run saves are tougher than 2 run saves.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 11 April 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[alwyn96]

Letting Lester throw 116 pitches in his second start of the season was pretty inexcusable.

I assume this is classic crazy internet hyperbole, because 116 pitches is a totally normal amount of pitches for an elite starting pitcher who is totally cruising. Verlander had 114 in his first start last year, and wound up having a pretty ok season. "Inexcusable" should be saved for something important, like kicking Heidi Watney out of bed for eating crackers or something.

A demerit for his pitching moves? You gotta be kidding me. The non-Melancon pitching was awesome. The lack of hitting was the story in this game.

Edited by alwyn96, 11 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Sampo Gida]

I assume this is classic crazy internet hyperbole, because 116 pitches is a totally normal amount of pitches for an elite starting pitcher who is totally cruising. Verlander had 114 in his first start last year, and wound up having a pretty ok season. "Inexcusable" should be saved for something important, like kicking Heidi Watney out of bed for eating crackers or something.

A demerit for his pitching moves? You gotta be kidding me. The non-Melancon pitching was awesome. The lack of hitting was the story in this game.

Verlander has averaged almost 10 pitches per start more than Lester the past 3 years. Last year Verlander averaged 116 pitches per start to Lesters 103. 116 is a lot for game 2, but more importantly, if you had seen the game, you would know he was not cruising. As I mentioned, he had some hard hit balls in the 7th which was a sign he was tiring.

Valentine himself has said this is a time for him to see what he has. Hard to see what Melacon has when he does not pitch, or gets pulled too quick when he does pitch.

[alwyn96]

Verlander has averaged almost 10 pitches per start more than Lester the past 3 years. Last year Verlander averaged 116 pitches per start to Lesters 103. 116 is a lot for game 2, but more importantly, if you had seen the game, you would know he was not cruising. As I mentioned, he had some hard hit balls in the 7th which was a sign he was tiring.

He had some hard-hit balls in the 3rd, too. Probably should have taken him out to save his arm!

Look, I watched (most of) the game, and he was fine. I don't know what your Melancon fixation is about.

[Sampo Gida]

He had some hard-hit balls in the 3rd, too. Probably should have taken him out to save his arm!

Look, I watched (most of) the game, and he was fine. I don't know what your Melancon fixation is about.

Why would you think he would be tiring in the 3rd? Obviously, giving up hard hit balls is not proof a pitcher is tiring, except when a pitcher is over or near 100 pitches, a reasonable person would think he may be. Verlander tired tonight and was finally pulled after 104 pitches, but because his manager ignored the signs he was not fine and felt he should stay with his ace, the Tigers lost the game.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 11 April 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[SpruceTrap]

Letting Lester throw 116 pitches in his second start of the season was pretty inexcusable.

How so? Lester's a big strong guy, he doesn't need to be babied.

Edited by SpruceTrap, 11 April 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[alwyn96]

Why would you think he would be tiring in the 3rd? Obviously, giving up hard hit balls is not proof a pitcher is tiring, except when a pitcher is over or near 100 pitches, a reasonable person would think he may be. Verlander tired tonight and was finally pulled after 104 pitches, but because his manager ignored the signs he was not fine and felt he should stay with his ace, the Tigers lost the game.

Sorry, probably should have put a smiley in there - I wasn't being serious

[koufax37]

I would send him back out in the 8th. I'm usually starting pitcher cautious, and I agree as stated that he gave up some loud outs in the 7th. But I think that he was not laboring and really didn't have any long term health reasons not to push past 100 to 116.

In terms of strategy, I think he was rolling and was our best bet to keep the game at 2-1 and help us maximize our chances of winning the game. I'm sure there is also the psychological aspect that Lester felt like he was rolling and wanted a chance to help his team win, and get the statistical win, so I view that as a potential positive. When I add up the pieces, I don't have a big problem with the decision.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Game 6. Lester goes 8 IP (CG) in 1-3 loss, throwing 116 pitches. Despite some loud outs in the 7th, an off day tommorow, and some members of the pen needing work, Bobby elects to have Lester set a personal record for number of pitches this early in the season. Not surprisingly, a 1-2 deficit became a 1-3 deficit, and ultimately, a 1-3 L.

I understand Bobby V's desire to keep the game close, and his reluctance to pull his ace for a reliever he has little confidence in (ala Grady Little in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS), but this goes down in my book as a demerit for Bobby V's pitching usage.

Also, Melancon needed work, this was a good time to get him in there. Now it looks as if he won't pitch until Friday at the earliest after a 5 day layoff.

The fact that he left Lester in says more about Bobbys trepidation with the bullpen than anything else. You'd think that with the amount of guys they have in there he'd have faith in at least one of the arms available that night to throw a clean inning. Nine times out of ten if your starter leaves the 7th inning at or over 100 pitches his night is over, and you give the ball to a fresh reliever. I honestly don't fault Bobby for being hesitant to make the call, the pen has been hit or miss, but it is still early in the season. When exactly did the trial period end? It's only the sixth game of the season and SSS or not, he's already unsure of what to expect out of that bullpen and it's pretty clear he's now gun-shy. It is kind of amusing that people were complaining about the quick hooks in the first series and now he's doing the opposite and there are still complaints.

No big deal, the outcome probably does not change, even if Lester got pulled earlier and Melancon had a clean inning. However, one wonders if Santos pitches the same w/o that insurance run. 1 run saves are tougher than 2 run saves.

I agree it's entirely possible that in a one run game the pitching approach from Santos and even our offensive approach for that matter could've been different. It's also possible replacing Lester in the eighth could've led to multiple runs. Either way its speculation at this point.

I don't blame Bobby for not going to the pen. Things might have been different if there was an arm in there he trusted more than his ace pitcher at 100 pitches.

[Merkle's Boner]

Well it didn't take long for Melancon to be dropped down to mop-up duty.

[paulb0t]

I assume this is classic crazy internet hyperbole, because 116 pitches is a totally normal amount of pitches for an elite starting pitcher who is totally cruising. Verlander had 114 in his first start last year, and wound up having a pretty ok season. "Inexcusable" should be saved for something important, like kicking Heidi Watney out of bed for eating crackers or something.

A demerit for his pitching moves? You gotta be kidding me. The non-Melancon pitching was awesome. The lack of hitting was the story in this game.

Of course the lack of hitting was the issue. But, cruising or not, there's no real reward to having Lester throw that many pitches. Yes, he's big and strong, but there's still a pretty reasonable limit as to the number of pitches an arm can handle - especially this early in the season. Worse, there was no one warming in the pen even as he got into a bit of a jam in the 8th.

FWIW, Lester exceeded 116 pitches exactly 3 times in 2011, and not once before May 30.

Edit: Perhaps inexcusable was harsh, but it's pretty questionable.

Edited by paulb0t, 13 April 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Sampo Gida]

Games 7-9 were pretty standard in terms of utilizing pitchers.

Game 7 - Beckett, 8 IP 94 pitches, 12-1 when he came out , followed by Melancon for 1 IP of mop-up

Game 8 - Buchholz, 7 IP, 104 pitches, 5-5 score, followed by 1 IP from Morales and 1 IP for the H from Aceves for 1 IP in a 13-5 games

Game 9- Doubront, 5 IP, 96 pitches, pitched to 1 batter in 6th (HR), 4-4, Atchison and Padilla finished off the 6th, with Padillia doing the 7th, Morales for the H in the 8th and Aceves for the 2 run Save in the 9th

Of the 3 games, I would only question Doubront coming out for the 6th since there were some hard hit balls in the 5th and he was close to 100 pitches (but I see how Bobby V wanted a L-L matchup against Scott), and Atchison being used in a 4-4 games.

Other than that, Bowden has been DFA, and it is clear that Morales has displaced Melancon as the set-up guy. Matt Albers is still around, somewhere, but has all of 2/3 IP in 1 game this year.

[Stanley Steamer]

I sense that one of Bobby V's goals is to get more IPs out of the starters this year, as it should be. While you can never get away from the injury risk of throwing too many pitches, Lester appears ready physically and mentally to pitch longer into games. I suspect BV will want him to get a few CGs this year. Beckett's last performance was so efficient that there was little management to do. Buchholz's game is the most encouraging, in that he was allowed to pitch through adversity and get a win. Doubront's performance was more typical-- he's still too green to give him much of a leash, and one has to accept 5 IP from him until he can become more efficient. It's hard to live in fear of burning out your pitchers when the last couple of years have shown that injuries tend to happen in any case. You might as well show what is expected of them, and see if you can get it.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Nothing defensible about today. Terrible decision. I'm pretty sure Grady Little sitting at home knew that Bard was beyond done in the 7th. Should've been pulled after the Jennings hit. He's supposedly a very intelligent man, who learns from his mistakes. We shall see.

[alwyn96]

Nothing defensible about today. Terrible decision. I'm pretty sure Grady Little sitting at home knew that Bard was beyond done in the 7th. Should've been pulled after the Jennings hit. He's supposedly a very intelligent man, who learns from his mistakes. We shall see.

"Nothing defensible" still way over the top, but I agree (and he does too: ''It was the wrong decision, obviously,'' Valentine said. ''I wanted to let him know right there that I thought he could get himself out of a jam.") that he had too slow a hook today. It's all well and good to stretch out your pitchers a bit, but Bard should have been out earlier. I like that he was trying to instill some confidence in Bard, but with Shields shutting down the Sox, it didn't work out.

[Sampo Gida]

For the record

Game 10. Bard making his 2nd career MLB start is allowed to throw 6 2/3 IP, 111 pitches, walking the last 3 of the last 4 batters when he had clearly lost command and was fatigued on a warm day at Fenway. Leaves game down 0-1.

JT for 1 1/3, Albers for the 9th keep it at 0-1. Not exactly the guys you want to see in the game but understandable.

Bobby V has a hard time distinguishing between what he wants to happen and what is likely to happen. Might as well bring back Grady Little, at least he was likable.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 16 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[alwyn96]

Bobby V has a hard time distinguishing between what he wants to happen and what is likely to happen. Might as well bring back Grady Little, at least he was likable.

Well, so did Francona, for that matter. None of them were known for their quick hooks, and its been annoying every time.

Still, hard to put all the blame on Valentine for this one. The Sox either bring their big bats or they don't hit at all. Couldn't even get one run today, and Bard's still figuring out how to be a starter and pitch deeper into games.

Edited by alwyn96, 17 April 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

"Nothing defensible" still way over the top, but I agree (and he does too: ''It was the wrong decision, obviously,'' Valentine said. ''I wanted to let him know right there that I thought he could get himself out of a jam.") that he had too slow a hook today. It's all well and good to stretch out your pitchers a bit, but Bard should have been out earlier. I like that he was trying to instill some confidence in Bard, but with Shields shutting down the Sox, it didn't work out.

I'm not sure how saying that there was really no way to defend Bobby's actions was being over the top. He said he was wrong and tried to cop-out by saying that he thought Bard could get out of it. I'm not sure what he based that notion on, Bard was pitching with what looked to be some sort of pasta for an arm and he couldn't find the strikezone. Thankfully he couldn't get it over the plate or it's probable they would've lost by 3 runs or more. Instilling confidence in Bard is utter BS, and I actually like Bobby, but that statement is total back-pedaling. He should've left it at "I was wrong, obviously." The I did it for the right reasons justification is garbage.

It would be interesting to hear what McClure's thoughts were during the game. I doubt he would oppose Bobby if asked about it at this point, but to be a fly on the wall...

Well, so did Francona, for that matter. None of them were known for their quick hooks, and its been annoying every time.

Still, hard to put all the blame on Valentine for this one. The Sox either bring their big bats or they don't hit at all. Couldn't even get one run today, and Bard's still figuring out how to be a starter and pitch deeper into games.

I understand you playing devil's advocate and trying to get a contrarian viewpoint in the mix, and rightfully so if they manage a few more hits yesterday or if Bard gets the 9th inning strikezone this may not be such a point of contention, but ultimately the decision made to keep Bard in cost the winning run, and a majority of the blame for that decision falls on Bobby.

[alwyn96]

Instilling confidence in Bard is utter BS, and I actually like Bobby, but that statement is total back-pedaling. He should've left it at "I was wrong, obviously." The I did it for the right reasons justification is garbage.


Unless we actually hear the whole thing in context, it's hard to find fault with the justification. I actually like knowing what Valentine was thinking, as I would guess most fans do. Whether you agree with it or not, at least you have a starting point on which to disagree.

I understand you playing devil's advocate and trying to get a contrarian viewpoint in the mix, and rightfully so if they manage a few more hits yesterday or if Bard gets the 9th inning strikezone this may not be such a point of contention, but ultimately the decision made to keep Bard in cost the winning run, and a majority of the blame for that decision falls on Bobby.

I'm not really trying to play devil's advocate - I just think people tend to way overreact to pitching change decisions, and blame/credit the manager too much for individual player performance. You don't score any runs in 9 innings and you don't put yourself in a good position to win. I think Valentine should have taken Bard out earlier, but that doesn't guarantee that no runs score, and it doesn't let the offense off the hook for scoring no runs.

Generally, when a team doesn't score any runs in 9 innings, they are going to lose that game.

[The Best Catch in 100 Years]

What's the deal with Albers never playing anymore? Anyone have any idea?

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Unless we actually hear the whole thing in context, it's hard to find fault with the justification. I actually like knowing what Valentine was thinking, as I would guess most fans do. Whether you agree with it or not, at least you have a starting point on which to disagree

It's only difficult to find fault with the justification if you believe he was being honest and not just trying to save face. If his actual thought was that Bard could get out of that situation, then apparently he had a mental lapse or possibly chalk it up to managerial rust because it was painfully obvious that it was a poor decision and no amount of trust in his pitcher can justify that.

I'm not really trying to play devil's advocate - I just think people tend to way overreact to pitching change decisions, and blame/credit the manager too much for individual player performance. You don't score any runs in 9 innings and you don't put yourself in a good position to win. I think Valentine should have taken Bard out earlier, but that doesn't guarantee that no runs score, and it doesn't let the offense off the hook for scoring no runs.

Generally, when a team doesn't score any runs in 9 innings, they are going to lose that game.

I don't really see your point, this has nothing to do with the offense and how many runs we did/didn't score. It's about the decision to leave an unestablished starter in who was visibly tired, at 100 pitches, had lost velocity and couldn't find the strikezone in a tie game with arguably the opponents best hitters coming to the plate. The only foreseeable outcomes, in that situation, given the facts were bad and really bad. I don't see a problem in blaming or crediting the manager when he has a direct influence on the final outcome.

[alwyn96]

What's the deal with Albers never playing anymore? Anyone have any idea?

When you have a 13-man pitching staff, there are going to be guys who don't pitch very often. There's some weird roster business happening right now. They probably just lost Exposito to the Orioles, and I assume they'll lose Bowden too at some point. I don't think either are big losses, though.

Edited by alwyn96, 17 April 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[alwyn96]

I don't really see your point, this has nothing to do with the offense and how many runs we did/didn't score. It's about the decision to leave an unestablished starter in who was visibly tired, at 100 pitches, had lost velocity and couldn't find the strikezone in a tie game with arguably the opponents best hitters coming to the plate. The only foreseeable outcomes, in that situation, given the facts were bad and really bad. I don't see a problem in blaming or crediting the manager when he has a direct influence on the final outcome.

We're talking about two different issues. The first, whether Valentine made the right decision at the right time or not, is one everyone and their moms agrees about. I'm less interested in that. The other issue is looking at reason why the team lost. There are lots of reasons why the Red Sox lost that game. In order to determine why they lost, you look at game circumstances, and blame apportioning, and while Valentine certainly gets his share - again where moms everywhere (except maybe Valentine's) agree - I think the guys with actual bats in their hands get a bigger one. Unless Valentine was blinding his hitters with a tiny hand mirror while they were hitting, it seems hard to say the actual players on field didn't have a bigger role. That's where the direct influence on the final outcome should also come in.

Edited by alwyn96, 17 April 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Sampo Gida]

I don't really see your point, this has nothing to do with the offense and how many runs we did/didn't score. It's about the decision to leave an unestablished starter in who was visibly tired, at 100 pitches, had lost velocity and couldn't find the strikezone in a tie game with arguably the opponents best hitters coming to the plate. The only foreseeable outcomes, in that situation, given the facts were bad and really bad. I don't see a problem in blaming or crediting the manager when he has a direct influence on the final outcome.

We're talking about two different issues. The first, whether Valentine made the right decision at the right time or not, is one everyone and their moms agrees about. I'm less interested in that.

Thats what the thread is about.

The other issue is looking at reason why the team lost. There are lots of reasons why the Red Sox lost that game. In order to determine why they lost, you look at game circumstances, and blame apportioning, and while Valentine certainly gets his share - again where moms everywhere (except maybe Valentine's) agree - I think the guys with actual bats in their hands get a bigger one. Unless Valentine was blinding his hitters with a tiny hand mirror while they were hitting, it seems hard to say the actual players on field didn't have a bigger role. That's where the direct influence on the final outcome should also come in.

This is a red herring. No one is arguing Bobby V should be blamed for the offense. James Shields was the reason for that. However, if the game was tie in the 9th, the Red Sox get a shot at MLB's worst bullpen in the 10th, so that run Bard was allowed to give up hurt, and prevented the offense from that opportunity. In that sense, Bobby V gets a good share of the blame for the L.

[alwyn96]

This is a red herring. No one is arguing Bobby V should be blamed for the offense. James Shields was the reason for that. However, if the game was tie in the 9th, the Red Sox get a shot at MLB's worst bullpen in the 10th, so that run Bard was allowed to give up hurt, and prevented the offense from that opportunity. In that sense, Bobby V gets a good share of the blame for the L.

A red herring? It's just a different way of looking at it. I think it's useful to talk about pitching decisions in the context of winning and losing, which are affected by things like the offense. I had no idea this discussion was intended to be so constrained.

[Sampo Gida]

This is a red herring. No one is arguing Bobby V should be blamed for the offense. James Shields was the reason for that. However, if the game was tie in the 9th, the Red Sox get a shot at MLB's worst bullpen in the 10th, so that run Bard was allowed to give up hurt, and prevented the offense from that opportunity. In that sense, Bobby V gets a good share of the blame for the L.

A red herring? It's just a different way of looking at it. I think it's useful to talk about pitching decisions in the context of winning and losing, which are affected by things like the offense. I had no idea this discussion was intended to be so constrained.

Meanwhile you ignore my point on the impact of the pitching change on the offense.

But yeah, they like threads to be topic specific here. You can go off-topic, but can't expect others to do so, or you can open a new thread, or find one on offense to discuss the offense.

[Sampo Gida]

Game 11. Lester goes 2+ IP and pulled after 4 runs and 80 pitches, leaving the bases loaded. Ends up being charged with 7 runs, and Red Sox down 2-7.

Atchison goes 4 IP, allows 3 IR to score, gives 1 of his own, throws 48 pitches

Albers throws a scoreless 7th

In the 8th. Melancon tagged for 6 runs w/o recording an out.

JT finishes the 8th giving up 2 of his own and throwing 33 pitches.

Padilla for the 9th gives up 2 more. Looked like he was throwing 80% in mop up duty.

I thought Bobby V did a good job pulling Lester when he did. Some managers would have tried to let him get out of it and pull him only when 7 runs were on the board, but he looked fatigued after that 49 pitch 2nd, so it was a good pull.

Too bad Padilla had to be used in the 9th, but don't see any other options for Bobby V unless he used a position player, or had Buchholz or Doubront throw between starts.

[Sampo Gida]

Game 12. Beckett goes 7 IP, pulled after 110 pitches down 2-3.

Morales comes on for the 8th, clearly does not have it as he hits a bitter with the bases loaded. Down 2-4, Bobby V lets the lefty Morales face the hot Napoli, Napoli hits a 2 run double. Morales then issues a IBB and is pulled after 1/3 IP , 29 pitches and 3 runs in and leaving the bases loaded down 2-6.

Albers gets a GDP to end the 8th and pitches a scoreless 9th, game ends 3-6.

Morales should not have pitched to Napoli especially with an off day tomorrow. Someone said Padilla might have been injured warming up in the pen preventing Bobby V from making a change until Albers was warmed up. If so, Bobby V is absolved of any blame. If not, chalk up another Bobby V mistake.

edit-Bobby V confirmed he could have went to Albers and chose not to since he wanted to stick with Morales, so it's on him.

edit2-4 to 3 runs

Edited by Sampo Gida, 20 April 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[ivanvamp]

Game 12. Beckett goes 7 IP, pulled after 110 pitches down 2-3.

Morales comes on for the 8th, clearly does not have it as he hits a bitter with the bases loaded. Down 2-4, Bobby V lets the lefty Morales face the hot Napoli, Napoli hits a 2 run double. Morales then issues a IBB and is pulled after 1/3 IP , 29 pitches and 4 runs in and leaving the bases loaded down 2-6.

Albers gets a GDP to end the 8th and pitches a scoreless 9th, game ends 3-6.

Morales should not have pitched to Napoli especially with an off day tomorrow. Someone said Padilla might have been injured warming up in the pen preventing Bobby V from making a change until Albers was warmed up. If so, Bobby V is absolved of any blame. If not, chalk up another Bobby V mistake.

edit-Bobby V confirmed he could have went to Albers and chose not to since he wanted to stick with Morales, so it's on him.

Texas "only" scored 3 in the 8th, not 4. But here's the thing: right now, it seems that no matter what pitcher Valentine puts in spits the bit. A couple of days ago people were saying that Padilla might be our best reliever outside of Aceves and then he got drilled by the Rangers. Then it was, looks like Morales is our best reliever outside of Aceves and then he gets hammered yesterday. Now the flavor of the day is Albers. Matt frickin' Albers. The same Matt Albers with a career 5.01 era and 1.53 whip who for the Sox last year "only" had a 4.73 era and 1.38 whip. Yes, apparently he is now the best relief option outside of Aceves.

Honestly, how is any manager going to look when pretty much every guy in his bullpen stinks and when his best 7th-8th inning option is Matt "5.01 career era" Albers? I'm guessing the answer is this: NOT VERY GOOD.

Edited by ivanvamp, 19 April 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Sampo Gida]

Texas "only" scored 3 in the 8th, not 4. But here's the thing: right now, it seems that no matter what pitcher Valentine puts in spits the bit. A couple of days ago people were saying that Padilla might be our best reliever outside of Aceves and then he got drilled by the Rangers. Then it was, looks like Morales is our best reliever outside of Aceves and then he gets hammered yesterday. Now the flavor of the day is Albers. Matt frickin' Albers. The same Matt Albers with a career 5.01 era and 1.53 whip who for the Sox last year "only" had a 4.73 era and 1.38 whip. Yes, apparently he is now the best relief option outside of Aceves.

Honestly, how is any manager going to look when pretty much every guy in his bullpen stinks and when his best 7th-8th inning option is Matt "5.01 career era" Albers? I'm guessing the answer is this: NOT VERY GOOD.

Thanks for the correction. Morales was left in too long. It was Bobby V's choice to have Albers warming instead of Padilla (who was warming up the inning before).

Managers can make a bullpen look worse than it is, or better, by how they use them.

edit-Also, Albers was quite good last year until August.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 20 April 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Sampo Gida]

Game 13.Buchholz goes 6+ innings, giving up 6 runs on 5 HR. Removed after walking Granderson in the 7th and 103 pitches down 2-6.

Atchison gets the 3 outs in the 7th w/o damage and gets removed after facing 1 batter in the 8th. J Thomas gets an out and gives up a hit, and Tazawa closes out the 8th and 9th going 1 2/3 IP (throwing 92-94 and throwing only 13 pitches).

Little bit surprised Buchholz came out in the 7th to face Granderson closing in on 100 pitches and having allowed 5 HR, but no harm done. No blame for Bobby in this one.

[Sampo Gida]

Over the last week, following the disaster of the Red Sox blowing a 9-0 lead to the Yankees, the bullpen has stabilized and while one could argue with some decisions on pitching usage, nothing really jumps out at you so I pretty much abandoned the daily summary.

However, one thing interesting happened last weekend was Lester and Beckett being allowed to exceed 120 pitches in back to back starts (Lester 122, Beckett 126). This was in part due to lengthy last AB's (10 for Lester, 13 for Beckett) so was excusable in my mind.

In any event, while I was not so concerned about Lester, Beckett was a concern. Last year, under the 330/3 rule that was tried and then abandoned; Lester, Beckett and Buchholz were each allowed to throw 120+ pitches one time in April-May. Only Lester seemed to suffer no ill effects. Buchholz never exceeded 100 pitches after that and soon landed on the DL (can't say for sure it was the high pitch count). Beckett had a poor start the next game and then left the following game early with a stiff neck.
But Beckett pitched fine after that.

Now we hear Beckett has more soreness than usual, one report says it is his lat, and will skip a start, with a WEEI report saying a DL stint is possible.

If it was not for the fact the last AB was 13 pitches I would be all over Bobby V, but I think this is one of those cases that highlight the need to be careful with pitch counts, especially with older pitchers with an injury history like Beckett, and younger pitchers, especially those who have not started much (like Bard). I think the only starter I feel comfortable letting go into Verlander territory is Lester. Hopefully Bobby V agrees.

[Sampo Gida]

Two bad decisions IMO this weekend.

The first was sending Cook out for the 3rd inning after suffering a gash that Salty said was so deep he could see bone and tendons. Bobby V said he asked Cook if he was good to go. However, Bobby V certainly has to have been in baseball long enough to know pitchers are the most unreliable guys around when it comes to giving an honest assessment about their ability to continue. Same mistake he made with Bard allowing him throwing 111 pitches in his 2nd career start despite being obviously fatigued. Needless to say, Cook gave up enough runs in the 3rd to put the game out of reach. I also have to question the medical staff for clearing Cook after giving him a shot and given the risk of infection pitching with an open wound.

Then last night, Buck raises the white flag in a marathon game by using his 1Bman as pitcher. O;s had already won the series, playing on the road, and has a tough series against Texas starting today, so that was understandable on his part. Bobby V OTOH, rather than finishing the O's off at home and ending a 4 game losing streak, decides to use his own position player to pitch. The rest is history. He could have used Doubront or Bard, something many teams do when playing long games (using a starting pitcher who was pitching the next day), Both guys had an extra days rest between starts. He could have skipped Doubront if he went more than 1 inning and moved up Bard to pitch tonight. The Red Sox are playing the Royals, so surely Bard and Doubront could have overcome some adversity without endangering their health.

[koufax37]

Two bad decisions IMO this weekend.

The first was sending Cook out for the 3rd inning after suffering a gash that Salty said was so deep he could see bone and tendons. Bobby V said he asked Cook if he was good to go. However, Bobby V certainly has to have been in baseball long enough to know pitchers are the most unreliable guys around when it comes to giving an honest assessment about their ability to continue. Same mistake he made with Bard allowing him throwing 111 pitches in his 2nd career start despite being obviously fatigued. Needless to say, Cook gave up enough runs in the 3rd to put the game out of reach. I also have to question the medical staff for clearing Cook after giving him a shot and given the risk of infection pitching with an open wound.

Then last night, Buck raises the white flag in a marathon game by using his 1Bman as pitcher. O;s had already won the series, playing on the road, and has a tough series against Texas starting today, so that was understandable on his part. Bobby V OTOH, rather than finishing the O's off at home and ending a 4 game losing streak, decides to use his own position player to pitch. The rest is history. He could have used Doubront or Bard, something many teams do when playing long games (using a starting pitcher who was pitching the next day), Both guys had an extra days rest between starts. He could have skipped Doubront if he went more than 1 inning and moved up Bard to pitch tonight. The Red Sox are playing the Royals, so surely Bard and Doubront could have overcome some adversity without endangering their health.

On the first point, complete agreement. Pitchers' words are terrible indicators of where they are. First, get anybody who tells you anything other than "ready to go, doing great" off your ballclub until they grow a pair and want the ball even when they shouldn't have it. Second, you now can no longer get any information from your pitcher, because all are going to be perfect and ready to bulldog their way through anything, so stop caring what they say and make your own judgments. Quick tip on judgments: when you can see bone, probably good warning sign that Mortensen might be your best option.

On the second one, I'm not 100% sure what our option was here, but it sure seems to me with Davis in (two scoreless innings notwithstanding) we should take advantage and go for it. Tough decision after not scoring in the 16th, but it would have been Bard's bullpen day and not a bad idea to throw him out there for an inning or two even if you adjust the rotation afterwards. Beckett would have really been the guy I would have wanted to go to, but I don't know his health. You think that if he is not DL hurt, then pitching on 7 or 8 days rest still four days ahead of the start should be fine for an inning or two. They indicated that Lester had already thrown his pen (terrible idea on a day game, but not much you can do).

[Sampo Gida]

On the first point, complete agreement. Pitchers' words are terrible indicators of where they are. First, get anybody who tells you anything other than "ready to go, doing great" off your ballclub until they grow a pair and want the ball even when they shouldn't have it. Second, you now can no longer get any information from your pitcher, because all are going to be perfect and ready to bulldog their way through anything, so stop caring what they say and make your own judgments. Quick tip on judgments: when you can see bone, probably good warning sign that Mortensen might be your best option.

On the second one, I'm not 100% sure what our option was here, but it sure seems to me with Davis in (two scoreless innings notwithstanding) we should take advantage and go for it. Tough decision after not scoring in the 16th, but it would have been Bard's bullpen day and not a bad idea to throw him out there for an inning or two even if you adjust the rotation afterwards. Beckett would have really been the guy I would have wanted to go to, but I don't know his health. You think that if he is not DL hurt, then pitching on 7 or 8 days rest still four days ahead of the start should be fine for an inning or two. They indicated that Lester had already thrown his pen (terrible idea on a day game, but not much you can do).

Doubront would have been the best option. He would have been pitching with normal rest. It may have messed him up for tonight, but you could have moved up Bard.

This one is probably a lesser evil compared to the Cook decision. I can see it being justified based on long term considerations. Nobody likes to use use starters in relief, even though I have seen it quite a few times.

[Rick Wise Guy]

Two bad decisions IMO this weekend.

The first was sending Cook out for the 3rd inning after suffering a gash that Salty said was so deep he could see bone and tendons. Bobby V said he asked Cook if he was good to go. However, Bobby V certainly has to have been in baseball long enough to know pitchers are the most unreliable guys around when it comes to giving an honest assessment about their ability to continue. Same mistake he made with Bard allowing him throwing 111 pitches in his 2nd career start despite being obviously fatigued. Needless to say, Cook gave up enough runs in the 3rd to put the game out of reach. I also have to question the medical staff for clearing Cook after giving him a shot and given the risk of infection pitching with an open wound.

Then last night, Buck raises the white flag in a marathon game by using his 1Bman as pitcher. O;s had already won the series, playing on the road, and has a tough series against Texas starting today, so that was understandable on his part. Bobby V OTOH, rather than finishing the O's off at home and ending a 4 game losing streak, decides to use his own position player to pitch. The rest is history. He could have used Doubront or Bard, something many teams do when playing long games (using a starting pitcher who was pitching the next day), Both guys had an extra days rest between starts. He could have skipped Doubront if he went more than 1 inning and moved up Bard to pitch tonight. The Red Sox are playing the Royals, so surely Bard and Doubront could have overcome some adversity without endangering their health.

To not go for it yesterday when the O's used Davis is inexcusable . I just can not fathom not using Doubront. I have not been in the anti V camp but I can understand being furious with him after that.

[koufax37]

To not go for it yesterday when the O's used Davis is inexcusable . I just can not fathom not using Doubront. I have not been in the anti V camp but I can understand being furious with him after that.

Yeah, Felix could have worked and just moved everyone up a day, but I would generally prefer a starter on his bullpen day (Lester pitched a bullpen before a DAY GAME because he couldn't spend 20 minutes after the game and miss the beer and chicken?).

Still, since all wins count the same, getting Doubie 0-0 in a win an inning and you win a game situation against a position player, or 0-0 9innings from the end against another team's starter, you have to think that any of your not-darnell options including Doubront or Bard makes sense.

And back to Bard, what do you think the chances are that we lose if Bard pitches the 17th? I mean really? What are the odds he can't outperform one inning at a time Chris Davis? Even if it costs him a start, getting a win for him going an inning or two instead of hoping he can get one with six or seven a couple days later, it just seems like a starter is clearly the better WPA for the season and the better choice.

But I still don't get why a non-DLed Beckett can't be the guy. If he is too sore to pitch an inning or two (a long bullpen) on six days rest, why the hell isn't he on the DL for 15 off?

[Sampo Gida]

So Bobby V has Clay come out tonight in the 7th inning with a 7-1 lead. He had only allowed 1 run and was under 100 pitches but did not pitch all that well, especially in the early innings. It was a perfect opportunity to let a RP'er start the inning clean and let Clay call it a night feeling pretty good about himself. As it is, Clay lets 3 runners on which eventually score while recording only 1 out. His final line, 6 1/3 IP, 4 runs, 3 ER, 8 hits, 3 BB, 0 K. Could have been 6 IP, 1 ER, 6 H, 3 BB, 0 K.

Probably does not feel as good as he would have if pulled after 6. Confidence building is a key part of managing, something Tito got, but something Bobby V struggles with.

Also, I wonder after watching Aceves the last 2 nights if the impact of Bobby V asking him to pitch into a 3rd inning twice in a 3 day period (69 pitches) is having a residual effect. Has not been quite as sharp since.

But I still don't get why a non-DLed Beckett can't be the guy. If he is too sore to pitch an inning or two (a long bullpen) on six days rest, why the hell isn't he on the DL for 15 off?

Who said he was too sore to pitch?. Beckett never said it. Red Sox have said skipping his start was precautionary in light of 126 pitches thrown his previous start and experiencing more soreness than usual. Beckett wanted to make his scheduled start according to Speirs Given he has had labrum/rotator cuff problems in the past, and back problems, and is north of 30, it seems a prudent move to skip him. Asking a starter to pitch in a game without going through his normal routine is something you probably only ask your healthy starters to do. If Beckett was not allowed to pitch Saturday, why would he think the team would change their mind on Sunday and volunteer. If Bobby V wanted to change his mind, he should have asked Beckett if he could pitch.

[arrowmaker]

But I still don't get why a non-DLed Beckett can't be the guy. If he is too sore to pitch an inning or two (a long bullpen) on six days rest, why the hell isn't he on the DL for 15 off?

I would agree with Bard coming in. He has a reliever's head and body still. He warms up fast and can theoretically mentally get into a game with little notice. On the other hand, most starters have a long, slow mental and physical lead up to their start. Physically most get a massage, stretch, long toss then throw from the mound a bit then come into the game having made the mental adjustments. Beckett is and always has been a starter. He's also never been of the jump on the hand grenade to protect the team mentality like Wakefield was. Likely why Wake was beloved and Beckett is tolerated when results are good.

Saying many teams use a starter when playing a long game is not accurate. Who anticipates that in the ninth you're going 17. Or in the twelfth or the fifteenth? The use of a starter in extras may happen once per year but I doubt it's more frequent than that. Will look at game logs of extra innings.

[Merkle's Boner]

I have loved the quick hook Bobby has wielded on numerous occasions, the most recent example being last nigt's Dice-K Debacle. It appears that he recognizes whether a guy has his stuff or not, and if not, removes him quickly while the team still has a chance to make a comeback. It didn't happen last night, but I will take my chances to come back from a 5-1 2nd inning deficit anytime.
Bobby doesn't appear to worry about pitcher's feelings and, in my opinion, treats them as professional adults. Hey man, you don't have it tonight, but we'll get 'em next time.
Of course, the amzing bullpen makes that decision easier.

[alwyn96]

I have loved the quick hook Bobby has wielded on numerous occasions, the most recent example being last nigt's Dice-K Debacle. It appears that he recognizes whether a guy has his stuff or not, and if not, removes him quickly while the team still has a chance to make a comeback. It didn't happen last night, but I will take my chances to come back from a 5-1 2nd inning deficit anytime.
Bobby doesn't appear to worry about pitcher's feelings and, in my opinion, treats them as professional adults. Hey man, you don't have it tonight, but we'll get 'em next time.
Of course, the amzing bullpen makes that decision easier.

I agree. I think Valentine's player usage in general has been pretty strong. I like his quick hook, although you really need a strong bullpen to make it work - a too-quick hook can burn out your bullpen pretty quick, giving more meaningful innings to the worst pitcher on the team. Fortunately, the bullpen has really turned it around since April, when everyone thought Valentine was terrible at bullpen management.

It's amazing how a good bullpen can make a manager look smart

Edited by alwyn96, 03 July 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Merkle's Boner]

I'm hearing media members giving Bobby crap for sending Dice-K out there at all last night, the argument being that they should have had a Germano type come up from Pawtucket to make the start if they had doubts about Dice's health. Do people realize how far Oakland is from Pawtucket? If you learn around noontime that your scheduled starter isn't feeling great, I would guess it is virtually impossible to get someone on a plane in Providence and be mentally and physically ready to start that night.

Seems to me Bobby did the next best thing which was see if he could work through it and have a quick hook when it is apparent the guy has nothing.

[Reid's Nickels]

I'm hearing media members giving Bobby crap for sending Dice-K out there at all last night, the argument being that they should have had a Germano type come up from Pawtucket to make the start if they had doubts about Dice's health. Do people realize how far Oakland is from Pawtucket? If you learn around noontime that your scheduled starter isn't feeling great, I would guess it is virtually impossible to get someone on a plane in Providence and be mentally and physically ready to start that night.

Seems to me Bobby did the next best thing which was see if he could work through it and have a quick hook when it is apparent the guy has nothing.

All this would be correct, but Dice-K couldn't pitch his off day bullpen which would have been on Saturday or Sunday...Plenty of time to get another starter there...Additionally we are rolling 6 starters out there now...would have been very simple to move everyone up a day for this series and pitch someone else the second game of the double header....Hell could have just had Mortensen start and have had a shot to win the game....In a race that is going to be this close to punt a game is just inexcusable.

It seems as if Bobby has his guys and his guys get to do whatever the hell they want. Hard to believe this is what the front office envisioned in bringing in an authoritarian manager.