118 replies to this topic

[ifmanis5]

Bradley is starting tonight. I think they also want to see how Ray would be as a 6th man going forward.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Bradley is starting tonight. I think they also want to see how Ray would be as a 6th man going forward.

I think this has to happen. It must be pretty clear to everyone that relying on the "Big Four" isn't going to get you anywhere. There is a tiny, not-zero, chance that Bradley can continue his development and become a real difference-maker in the playoffs, particularly if refs start giving him some benefit of the doubt.

Whoever would have thunk at the beginning of the year that we'd be pinning our hopes on Bradley and the Steamer?

[Koufax]

I would have given no chance to the notion that I would be looking forward to seeing Bradley in the game. His progress since last year is mind-boggling. I thought Danny's focusing personal attention on him at the beginning of the season was the kiss of death -- the last push before they released him. I could not have been more incorrect.

Ray on the other hand seems to fool nobody any more. Sure, if he is wide open his is still a great three point shooter, but nobody leaves him open.

[JohnnyTheBone]

Ray on the other hand seems to fool nobody any more. Sure, if he is wide open his is still a great three point shooter, but nobody leaves him open.

5 of 11 tonight from deep in a hotly contested road win at Indy.

[ivanvamp]

I didn't see the game tonight...just looked at the box score. How did Bradley do? Not a lot in the stats department, but this one jumped out at me: +18, second-highest number behind Garnett's +21. So whatever he was doing out there, it seems like he was doing something right and the team dominated Indy when he was on the floor.

[Sprowl]

I didn't see the game tonight...just looked at the box score. How did Bradley do? Not a lot in the stats department, but this one jumped out at me: +18, second-highest number behind Garnett's +21. So whatever he was doing out there, it seems like he was doing something right and the team dominated Indy when he was on the floor.

He didn't make much impact on offense, mostly because the Pacers had prepared to guard against a cutting Bradley. On the other hand, Rondo, Bradley and Allen gave the Pacer guards fits on defense all game long. George shot 0-for-7, so Bradley has now guarded Wade, Ginobili, Brewer and George without getting burned. No opposing team has posted him up and benefited by it so far.

[RoDaddy]

He didn't make much impact on offense, mostly because the Pacers had prepared to guard against a cutting Bradley.

This is a bit of a concern if Indy has come up with a blueprint to slow or stop this part of Bradley's game. Cutting to the basket has become close to 50% of his offense.

[Koufax]

Ray started out really cold, and then got better as the game went on. Boy, they really fed him the ball when he was on the floor. Still, Avery was more of a defensive stopper.

[RoDaddy]

Really with the game that Stiemsma is giving you, it is hard to miss JO. That is almost as incredible as the progress that Bradley has made this year, but not quite.

I agree. To have developed into a solid NBA backup from a big that noone noticed or wanted earlier this season is pretty amazing. I'd just like to see more consistency from him. Yesterday's numbers were outstanding, but he had only one rebound the game before, and just a few weeks ago, no bounds in a loss (against Philly I believe). I'd also like to see him cut down on the fouls. OTOH, when he puts it together like yesterday, he's Walton-esque off the bench.

[ifmanis5]

Bradley has now guarded Wade, Ginobili, Brewer and George without getting burned. No opposing team has posted him up and benefited by it so far.

He does a better job of defending SGs than he does PGs. He's also better on the offensive side at the 2 when he lets Rondo do all the thinking/creating.

The injuries to Allen, Wilcox and JO were a blessing since we've discovered that Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass-KG is their best floor unit.

[Kutcher Era Youth]

I've been secretly lamenting our climb up the ranks the last several weeks for draft position reasons, but the emergence of Avery lately has done much to assuage my grief. Just for fun, if AB were to be placed into this year's draft pool, where do you think he'd go? I think he'd have a shot at the end of the lottery.....

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I've been secretly lamenting our climb up the ranks the last several weeks for draft position reasons, but the emergence of Avery lately has done much to assuage my grief. Just for fun, if AB were to be placed into this year's draft pool, where do you think he'd go? I think he'd have a shot at the end of the lottery.....

Just below Jeremy Lin . . . .

[JakeRae]

I've been secretly lamenting our climb up the ranks the last several weeks for draft position reasons, but the emergence of Avery lately has done much to assuage my grief. Just for fun, if AB were to be placed into this year's draft pool, where do you think he'd go? I think he'd have a shot at the end of the lottery.....

He's a rotation player in the NBA who still has room to improve. He would be a top 10 pick if he were draft eligible.

[TripleOT]

AB did a hell of a job running the offense in the second quarter tonight against Philly. It helps to have weapons like KG and Ray Allen playing against subs too. Bradley got 18 points on 12 shots, and was a hefty +27. He did his usually stifling defensive job against a bunch of Sixers, keeping Lou Williams and Turner under wraps in the first half.

He's playing with a ton of confidence. I don't remember a Celtic making this dramatic a turnaround in a season. he didn't look like an NBA player to start the year, and now is a lock down defender who gets some of the easiest baskets in the league by cutting effectively.

Bradley must be a hell of a worker off the court. A guy getting rotation minutes for the first time shooting 82% from the line is impressive. After being a poor FT shooter in college (54%) he obviously puts his time on.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Everytime I see Avery play, I can't help but think of all of the other guards that Danny drafted because of their defensive ability - like Orien Greene, Lester Hudson, JR Giddens, and Gabe Pruitt. It's nice to see Danny have hit on one.

It's fun watching Avery defend. After a while, the people he guards don't even want the ball anymore. Chris Forsberg with some nice stats:

The Boston starters with Bradley are now plus-24.53 in overall rating differential, posting an offensive rating (points per 100 possessions) of 112.21 and a defensive rating of 87.68 in 111 minutes of court time. Offensively, the team is nearly 13 points better than its season average (99.61) with that lineup and 12 points better than its defensive average (99.22).

What's more, those numbers are even better than the offensive (102.32) and defensive (100.91) ratings posted with Allen with the same starter group over 291 minutes this season.

And just for fun, the C's points allowed since Bradley has entered starting line-up: 76, 95 (Bobcats), 82, 79, 72, 87, 93, 72.

Edited by wade boggs chicken dinner, 08 April 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[ivanvamp]

Great defense, and threw in 18 points, 4 rebounds, and 5 assists today to boot. Oh, and he logged the most minutes of any Celtic today (34:51).

The kid has become a legit NBA player. Very nice to see.

[Statman]

If AB continues at his current production, do you guys seem the Celtics letting Allen walk after the season?

I'm ambivalent about it, but would like the Celtics to sign Allen provided that he agrees to come off the bench as our sixth man. That being said, even with the recent news report saying that Allen "volunteered" to come off the bench, this quotes from Allen himself makes be believe that perhaps he is isn't necessarily that happy doing so. If that's the case, then I definitely think that we should not re-sign him next season.

“I think my challenge is to be able to compete at a high level every year coming into the season and that means competing for a starting job every opportunity I get,” he said before last night’s game against the 76ers at TD Garden. “That’s my focus. That’s my goal.

“If I felt as though I wasn’t playing up to that level, and those standards, then I think there’s going to be a point where I’d have to say it’s time for me to move on."

...

“I don’t think it can happen for me to ultimately become comfortable with it with these 11 games left,” he said. “None of us are getting into a routine as far as settling in and what our roles are, with (lack of) practice time, understanding the rotations and chemistry. You just adapt the best way you can.”

http://www.metrowest...g-to-bench-role

Edited by Statman, 09 April 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[JakeRae]

If AB continues at his current production, do you guys seem the Celtics letting Allen walk after the season?

I'm ambivalent about it, but would like the Celtics to sign Allen provided that he agrees to come off the bench as our sixth man. That being said, even with the recent news report saying that Allen "volunteered" to come off the bench, this quotes from Allen himself makes be believe that perhaps he is isn't necessarily that happy doing so. If that's the case, then I definitely think that we should not re-sign him next season.



http://www.metrowest...g-to-bench-role

First of all, those quotes sound like complete crap. The team looks very comfortable with their current rotations and roles. Ray is adapting to a new role and is clearly not fully comfortable with it yet, based on his comments, but everyone else seems to be clicking on all cylinders.

As for the general question, I don't see it happening unless he is willing to be a 30+ minute/game bench player on a vet min contract. There are going to be better ways to spend the available cap space this offseason. The only other scenario is that they bring everyone back, including Green and Bass, and then there isn't going to be any free money anyway so they overpay Ray on a 1 or 2 year deal to get him to accept a bench role. That scenario assumes they still have Bird rights with Green so they won't have to renounce their rights to the other guys to use their cap space to sign him. (I'm a bit unclear on Green's status.) I think it's more likely they relinquish Ray and Bass, re-up KG on a deal a lot like Ray's current contract, and use the rest of the cap space to try to sign another talent big. Then, fill in around the edges with vet min players and their two 1st round picks. I think Ray is worth the full MLE to several contending teams, so I don't see him taking the vet min to stay in Boston.

[jmcc5400]

Intriguing article re the Garnett-Bass-Pierce-Bradley-Rondo unit, which is charting as the C's most efficient offensive combination and is off the charts defensively.

http://espn.go.com/b...ew-look#comment

Offense:

of the Celtics' 10 most-used lineups this season, they rank far and away as the most offensively efficient

Defense:

As a frame of reference, the Celtics give up a league-best 95.3 points per 100 possessions overall, but with this unit on the floor, that number drops to 81.0. There's a danger of small sample size theater with a lineup that's played only 136 minutes, but the crazy thing is that the gaudy 81.0 number keeps dropping the more this unit jells.

[Koufax]

I have no idea of the numbers, but I actually feel better about the team defense when Stiemsma is out there instead of Bass, althouh one drawback with the Steamer is that blocked shots often end up in the hands of the other team.

One reason for my lack of enthusiasm about Bass is that he has seemed reluctant to take his shot. It seems that Rondo cured him of that in the second half against the Sixers. Let's hope it continues. He has passed up way too many open shots.

[Reardons Beard]

Very excited to see this new lineup against Miami tonight.

[cumicon]

It will be fun to see the Bradley - Wade matchup again. You know Wade will want some redemption for Avery's block.

[Brickowski]

It will be fun to see the Bradley - Wade matchup again. You know Wade will want some redemption for Avery's block.

Yes, but AB will do fine-- unless the officials screw him.
If you stay in front of Wade he's just another sg. If you let him get to the rim, he's all-world.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

You could probably make that argument for 9 out of 10 SG in the league.

"If you play good defense in front of him, he's average. If you let him drive the hole everytime, he's good."

[Brickowski]

You could probably make that argument for 9 out of 10 SG in the league.

"If you play good defense in front of him, he's average. If you let him drive the hole everytime, he's good."

Yes, but it's true in spades with Wade, especially when the officials let him get away with that spin move.
LeBron is the same, especially when the officials let him bowl people over without calling the charge. Make LeBron shoot jump shots too.

Actually, the guy who moves without the ball is the most dangerous of all. Fortunately, Wade and James like the ball in their hands and the Heat don't have a good distributor.

[Statman]

Ray is adapting to a new role and is clearly not fully comfortable with it yet, based on his comments, but everyone else seems to be clicking on all cylinders.

I certainly understand Allen not being comfortable coming off the bench seeing as he's been a starter for his entire career. That being said, I just think the Celtics are a much better team offensively and defensively with Allen getting the majority of his minutes with the second unit.

Allen just doesn't fit in with the starters at this point in his career because our offense grinds to a halt when we run him off screens for like 10-12 seconds while the rest of the team just stands there and watches him take an open jumper. If he doesn't get open, Rondo ends up taking a low percentage jumper or we dump it off to Paul with few seconds left on the shot clock.

What I found particularly interesting about all of the articles posted up thread about our increased defensive prowess with Bradley in the lineup is that when Bradley and Garnett play together, "Boston gives up 88.8 points per 100 possessions, allows 38.8 percent shooting and forces nearly one turnover for every assist."

It's not even a small sample size thing either because they've played 658 minutes together. I never thought I would see an on-the-ball defender as good as Tony Allen, but Bradley is coming pretty darn close.

Hollinger also says that:

When Rondo and Bradley play together, opponents average 82.2 points per 100 possessions. That's nearly 20 points below the league average. It's in 271 minutes, so it's not as robust a sample as the data with Garnett, but good heavens. The Celtics barely need to bother with an offense if the D is going to provide this kind of domination.

http://espn.go.com/b...n-the-headlines

Yes, but AB will do fine-- unless the officials screw him.
If you stay in front of Wade he's just another sg. If you let him get to the rim, he's all-world.

Wade himself said that when Bradley defends him, he has to pay more attention to his game. I'll take that any day over Allen's offense.

Obviously he’s had an impact. He’s fast. He’s a good finisher. He’s an aggressive defender. He’ll try to get into you. I’m a guy who’s always going to give it your all, but he makes you focus a little bit more on your game.

http://www.bostonher...-avery-bradley/

Edited by Statman, 10 April 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Sprowl]

I have no idea of the numbers, but I actually feel better about the team defense when Stiemsma is out there instead of Bass, althouh one drawback with the Steamer is that blocked shots often end up in the hands of the other team.

One reason for my lack of enthusiasm about Bass is that he has seemed reluctant to take his shot. It seems that Rondo cured him of that in the second half against the Sixers. Let's hope it continues. He has passed up way too many open shots.

Garnett-Bradley-Rondo-Stiemsma-Pierce is a suffocating defensive team. Having a weakside shotblocker allows Garnett to be more aggressive on his double-teaming out on the perimeter. Bass is a better player than Stiemsma, of course, but only because he can put the ball in the basket.

[jmcc5400]

Garnett-Bradley-Rondo-Stiemsma-Pierce is a suffocating defensive team.

Yes, And I really like what we've seen from the Garnett-Stiemsma-Pavlovic-Bradley-Allen unit that has been starting the 2nd and 4th quarters. I think Pavlovic's contributions have been unsung because they don't really show up in the boxscore, but he seems to be a smart and tenacious defender that has meshed well.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Garnett-Bradley-Rondo-Stiemsma-Pierce is a suffocating defensive team. Having a weakside shotblocker allows Garnett to be more aggressive on his double-teaming out on the perimeter. Bass is a better player than Stiemsma, of course, but only because he can put the ball in the basket.

Interesting you say that because this post says that Bass is one of the 10 best defensive players in the league. Not sure if that passes the smell test, but I'm just adding it to the conversation. Quote:

All five of the current Celtics starters rank among the top 62 overall defenders in the league this season in terms of points allowed per possession, according to Synergy Sports Technology.

Player: points allowed per possession (rank)
Brandon Bass: 0.63 (9th)
Avery Bradley: 0.70 (21st)
Kevin Garnett: 0.73 (33rd)
Rajon Rondo: 0.74 (41st)
Paul Pierce: 0.76 (62nd)

More defensive statistics: http://thechasedownb...rk-this-season/

Edited by wade boggs chicken dinner, 10 April 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[Sprowl]

Interesting you say that because this post says that Bass is one of the 10 best defensive players in the league. Not sure if that passes the smell test, but I'm just adding it to the conversation. Quote:

More defensive statistics: http://thechasedownb...rk-this-season/

Interesting. I have not seen Bass's defense as a strength. The link specifically praises his post defense, while I would have ranked Glen Davis above Bass on both post defense (muscling Dwight Howard out of his comfort zone) and help defense (all those charges Big Baby used to take).

Is Bass the beneficiary of his teammates? Or is he earning part of the credit himself?

[lars10]

Interesting. I have not seen Bass's defense as a strength. The link specifically praises his post defense, while I would have ranked Glen Davis above Bass on both post defense (muscling Dwight Howard out of his comfort zone) and help defense (all those charges Big Baby used to take).

Is Bass the beneficiary of his teammates? Or is he earning part of the credit himself?

To me Bass boxes out far better than Baby ever did and he's also been a pretty decent rebounder in general.

Do the C's guards come down farther to help than most teams? With the quickness Avery and Rondo bring it seems they're able to recover better than average...but I'm not sure.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Interesting. I have not seen Bass's defense as a strength. The link specificalStrikly praises his post defense, while I would have ranked Glen Davis above Bass on both post defense (muscling Dwight Howard out of his comfort zone) and help defense (all those charges Big Baby used to take).

Is Bass the beneficiary of his teammates? Or is he earning part of the credit himself?

Bass has struck me as a decent on the ball defender who doesn't rotate very well. To the extent a player doesn't rotate - particularly on the Cs system - that would cause his defensive stats to be inflated (also a problem for such stats) because while his man wouldn't score he would be responsible for someone else's man to score.

Just for fun, here is the draft write-up for Bass; kind of interesting: http://www.draftexpr...randon-Bass-53/

[TomRicardo]

Bass has improved throughout the season.

[Koufax]

I have to give Bass some credit for his rebounding. He uses good technique and does not back down.

[jmcc5400]

Negatives: A shooting guard with no 3-point threat and limited shooting range, so spacing becomes a problem. Small sample size.

Amazingly, Bradley is 18 for 31 from 3 since the allstar break. It's all from the corner (18-28 from corner, 1 for 15 elsewhere on the year), but it's still an incredible development. A lot of folks have suggested he could have a Bowenesque career if he can develop a game from the corner 3. It's developed. That said, I was disappointed in his (everyone's) defense last night. Thought he could have given Baron a lot more trouble.

[JakeRae]

Amazingly, Bradley is 18 for 31 from 3 since the allstar break. It's all from the corner (18-28 from corner, 1 for 15 elsewhere on the year), but it's still an incredible development. A lot of folks have suggested he could have a Bowenesque career if he can develop a game from the corner 3. It's developed. That said, I was disappointed in his (everyone's) defense last night. Thought he could have given Baron a lot more trouble.

Cut them some slack. They have to be exhausted right now. As long as the defense comes back next week, I'm ok with last night's effort and whatever happens tonight.

[Sprowl]

Amazingly, Bradley is 18 for 31 from 3 since the allstar break. It's all from the corner (18-28 from corner, 1 for 15 elsewhere on the year), but it's still an incredible development. A lot of folks have suggested he could have a Bowenesque career if he can develop a game from the corner 3. It's developed.

Along with the marksmanship from the corner, he has also perfected his timing on when to cut to the basket, and he has shown that he can finish at the rim, in spite of being only 6'1. Not bad for a guy whose only offensive game last year was the mid-range jumper off the dribble.

[jmcc5400]

Don't forget about the patented dribble off the foot.

It's crazy - the guy was just lost as an offensive player. Even at the time this thread was started, which was based on signs of part of his game blossoming, he was 5-26 on his career from 3 point range. That he's shot ~ 70% from 3 since then is absurd. He has to be the most improved player in the NBA this year. I know Jeremy Lin will win the award, but, from my perspective, Jeremy Lin hasn't dramatically improved, he's just gotten the chance to play. I was pretty-well convinced four months ago that Avery Bradley was the worst player in the NBA.

[Koufax]

Dead on, jmcc.

[ifmanis5]

The emergence of Bradley as the SG of the future gives Danny all the leverage in his dealings with Ray Allen in the offseason. Before Ray got hurt and Bradley was still the backup PG, Ray could go to Danny and say 'I'm the starting SG, you have no one else, gimme some money.' But now it's Danny who can say 'Bradley has the job and we're building around him in the future, so accept a huge pay cut or GTFO.'

Also, as mentioned upstream, Bradley's corner 3 range really expands his game and won't be the space killer we might have expected. The Celtics backcourt for the next five years (barring injuries) is locked in now.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

It's interesting - for whatever reason, they say that basketball is one sport where you can look at a teenager and project out that he is going to the NBA and be right pretty often. I guess it's because at the end of the day, if you are one of the top 5 high school athletes, you will probably be a pretty good basketball player.

As Avery Bradley was rated (by some) the No. 1 high school player of his year, I wondered how often it was that a top 5 rated HS player didn't make the NBA. It's not often. Just looking at Rivals since they have the information handly on their website, top 6 of each recruiting year listed from 1 to 6:

2003: Lebron, Deng,Shannon Brown, Ndudi Ebi, Vilanueva, Perkins.
2004: Howard, Livingston, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Gay, Telfair
2005: Gerald Green, McRoberts, Ellis, Blatche, Martell Webster, Bynum. Louis Williams was 7.
2006: Oden, Durant, Brandan Wright, Budinger, Thaddeus Young, Spencer Hawes.
2007: Beasley, Eric Gordon, Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Kyle Singler, Kevin Love
2008: Byron Mullens, Jrue Holiday, Demar DeRozen, Brandon Jennings, Scotty Hopson, Tyreke Evans. Al-Farouq Aminu was No. 7.
2009: Wall, Cousins, Favors, Bradley, John Henson, Jordan Hamilton
2010: Josh Selby, Harrison Barnes, Enes Kanter, Kyrie Irving, Sullinger, Brandon Knight
2011: Austin Rivers, Anthony Davis, Mike Gilchrest, Brad Beal, Marquis Teague, LeBryan Nash.

You would think there would be more flame-outs just due to injuries but if you drafted off this list, you'd have a pretty impressive team.

[crystalline]

It's interesting - for whatever reason, they say that basketball is one sport where you can look at a teenager and project out that he is going to the NBA and be right pretty often. I guess it's because at the end of the day, if you are one of the top 5 high school athletes, you will probably be a pretty good basketball player.

I think that the best athletes of all the major sports play basketball. You have to be incredibly strong and quick, both in terms of sprint speed as well as the ability to react to another player and respond quickly.
Maybe the reason for your list is that the chance of finding that at an elite level as well as them being 6 to seven feet tall is incredibly rare. And I don't think you can teach/train for athleticism / quickness very effectively - genetics plays a huge role.

[Koufax]

I agree. That's why I am able to enjoy even the end of a lopsided game when the bench players come in. Even they are terrific athletes, and they often play with great intensity (albeit
with a lack of chemistry).

[Hendu's Gait]

Apologies to Riles and all other Avery apologists!!!

[scottyno]

please change thread title to our present shooting guard

thank you

I don't know if he'll get any votes, but if jeremy lin is in contention avery bradley should absolutely be talked about for most improved player

[JohnnyTheBone]

The emergence of Avery Bradley as a legitimate star in the making completely changes the equation of the Celtics immediate future. He's a cost-controlled building block to a contending team, in my opinion. Wow, his rise has been unreal. Forget blowing it up; bring KG back and let it all roll.

[bowiac]

The emergence of Avery Bradley as a legitimate star in the making completely changes the equation of the Celtics immediate future. He's a cost-controlled building block to a contending team, in my opinion. Wow, his rise has been unreal. Forget blowing it up; bring KG back and let it all roll.

Define star. Has he developed into a top 15 shooting guard even?

Edited by bowiac, 02 May 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[PedrosRedGlove]

He did say he was a "star in the making," not yet a star. As for your question, I really don't know since I don't watch much basketball outside of the Celtics, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was getting close to that level. The defensive athleticism and intensity that he brings to the court really is incredible. It is looking like the potential for him to develop into one of the best on-ball defenders in the NBA is starting to come to fruition. When you add in the strides he has made offensively, and how much more comfortable he looks on the court now compared to even earlier this season, then I really have to agree with JohnnyTheBone's excitement; Avery is turning into a very valuable piece of the future Celtics puzzle.

[JohnnyTheBone]

Define star. Has he developed into a top 15 shooting guard even?

He is an impact defender already, makes a living with his quickness on cuts to the rim, and can drain a corner three. For a 21 year old second-year player who was written off as a bust less than 3 months ago, I'm just going to go ahead and assume that the best is yet to come.

[Jed Zeppelin]

His TS% is very respectable and right there with the likes of Wade and JJ. The most impressive part is that it's coming from everywhere - layups, free throws, threes - he's done it all very well since the first month of the season and he has actually become better than average at scoring the ball. Pretty amazing considering where he was at. That plus elite D - not too shabby. The ballhandling and distributing probably will never be elite, but they're coming around and will continue to do so given the rate at which he's improved this year. I loved his pass to Pierce on the fastbreak for the dunk late in the game tonight. It wasn't anything special...just a smart pass to the right man, but it's a play that old Avery Bradley would surely have fucked up.