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Taking the pulse...


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Poll: Taking the pulse... (426 member(s) have cast votes)

How many games will the 2012 Red Sox win?

  1. 80 games or less. (3 votes [0.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.79%

  2. 81-85 games. (24 votes [6.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.28%

  3. 86-90 games. (98 votes [25.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.65%

  4. 91-95 games. (223 votes [58.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.38%

  5. 96-100 games. (30 votes [7.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.85%

  6. 100 games or more. (4 votes [1.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.05%

Will the Red Sox win the division in 2012?

  1. Yes. (47 votes [12.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.30%

  2. No. (335 votes [87.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 87.70%

Will the 2012 Red Sox win a playoff game?

  1. Yes. (262 votes [68.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.59%

  2. No. (120 votes [31.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.41%

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#51 Eric Van


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:13 AM

You start with a 100-win team in terms of predictive statistics.

Then you add the single most beneficial off-season roster move made by any contender:

02/22/12 Boston Red Sox placed RHP John Lackey on the 60-Day disabled list.


This graphic is, I think, helpful. Each line is 5 points of 2011 ERA-.

---------
Josh Beckett, C. C. Sabathia
Jeremy Hellickson
Jon Lester
Matt Garza, Mark Buehrle
Felix Hernandez, David Price





Average MLB 5th starter





John Lackey
-----------------

If we'd had an average 5th starter and replaced him with Hernandez or Price, people would be placing orders for post-season swag. Replacing Lackey with an average MLB 5th starter is the same size upgrade. And the odds are pretty good that the best of Bard, Doubront, Aceves, Padilla, and the longshots will be better than average, with a chance for much better.

The 4th starter situation (two months of the above, then probably a career-typical Matsuzaka) is similar, but less dramatic.

Big improvements in RF and LF may well be offset by regression in CF and DH and a downgrade at SS and in the pen, so that can be left out of the equation.

Finally, there has been an unusual influx of talent from other leagues and from non-contenders to AL contenders. That offsets a lot of the expected gain in the pitching.

So it's really hard to argue against 96-100.

#52 bosockboy


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:49 AM

Why? If Matsuzaka is back and contributing and they haven't lost any of Lester, Beckett or Buchholz you don't think it's even remotely possible that one of Padilla, Bard, Cook, Aceves or Doubront will be able to fill in that last spot adequately?


Even if Bard or Aceves can, they would both likely have innings limits and head back to the pen in late summer.

#53 OttoC


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

Even if Bard or Aceves can, they would both likely have innings limits and head back to the pen in late summer.


But the question I have about Bard is how well/quickly would he adapt to going back to the set-up role after making 150 innings of starts?

#54 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:58 AM

Even if Bard or Aceves can, they would both likely have innings limits and head back to the pen in late summer.


You're assuming that both are starters for the first half of the year. Even if they are, you're looking at a second half staff of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz and Matsuzaka needing to get a half a season of league average performance (or maybe a tick less, even) from Cook, Doubront, and/or Padilla while still having Miller, Bowden and perhaps one of the kids on the farm taking a step forward by then. I'm still not seeing why you've already determined that even if Matsuzaka comes back the Sox absolutely must pick up a starter at the deadline. It's entirely possible that they won't need to, and writing off the possibility that the current staff can get them through the season seems unreasonably pessimistic to me.

And, of course, all this is assuming that Tazawa, who was signed as a starter, isn't put back into that role in AAA this year. It's entirely possible they'll need to pick up a starter at the deadline. But automatically assuming that need will be there on March 25th seems silly to me.

#55 trekfan55

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:59 AM

The 2011 opening day Red Sox had a starting rotation of Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, and DiceK. A bullpen of Papelbon (contract year), Bard, Jenks, Albers.

As the season progressed, only 2 of the above mentioned starting pitchers were good enough, DiceK and Buchholz went down and Lackey should have. Then Albers, who started out pretty well fell off a cliff and Jenks was never really healthy.

They had a starting OF of Drew, Ellsbury, and Crawford. Drew was never healthy (which could be felt on both sides of play) and Crawford sucked.

Yet, come September 1st they seemed to have an insormountable cushion to make the playoffs. Even as all those injuries and bad luck caught up to them, it came down to the wire, and a blown save by Papelbon plus the Yankees blowing a 7 run lead to miss the playoffs, which by the way under this year's rules they make.

So, if the exact same team returns and plays the exact same way as last year, they can make the playoffs. However, this is not the case. Just addressing the areas mentioned above, the starting rotation is better, they have a good closer in Bailey, and Crawford cannot possibly suck more when he comes back. RF will also be much improved.

The free agent pitchers the Sox might have gotten were not the saviors people here were expecting. Maybe next year's FA crop.

Conclusion: This team can make the playoffs this year, is better than last year's (barring 4 catastrophic injuries) and can make the playoffs. After that, we have learned, anything can happen.

#56 stevman17

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:31 AM

My opinion is that this will be the year where the Sox are finally lucky with injuries. Only one of the core guys will go on an extended DL trip, and as a result, the team will be awesome. Of course the credit will go to Valentine and no chicken and beer. This team has had great rosters and horrible injury luck for the last few years.

As such, The Sox will win the division, 97 games, and make a playoff run with a crazy series against the Angels.

#57 Eric Van


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:20 PM

It lacks pitching depth. The Sox best pitchers can go toe to toe with just about anyone.

Except the Rangers, Angels, Rays, and Yankees. Who. have. depth.


For the most part, this just isn't true.

Leave the Rays aside, because they do have insane depth with Jeff Niemann, Wade Davis, Alex Cobb, and Alexander Torres all viable 5th starters.

The Angels don't have depth at all. Their 5th starter is Jerome Williams, and they're so enthused with him that they're apparently thinking of having #3 prospect Garrett Richards skip AAA to take his place, rather than giving him at least a half-season down there. Ron Shandler thinks he can be an asset (4.24 projection), PECOTA thinks he'll be OK (4.73), ZiPS is skeptical (5.48). Their deep depth is Trevor Bell and Brad Mills.

(Furthermore, they've got the weakest farm system and hence are probably least-well positioned to make a trade.)

So if you compare the Sox, Yankees, and Rangers ....

The 5th starter fight is Aceves vs. Doubront, Hughes vs. Garcia, and a clusterfuck with Alexi Ogando, Neftali Feliz, Derek Holland, and Matt Harrison playing musical chairs for the 3, 4, and 5 spots. We may end up with the weakest 5th starter / longman combo of the three, but we might not. And even if we do, I fail to see where there's a worrisome pennant-deciding difference here.

The MFY's signed Andy Pettitte, and we can match that for a June depth upgrade with Dice-K. The Rangers have nothing similar percolating.

If we had to go 7 deep in April or May, we have Padilla, Cook, and Miller to choose from; the Rangers have Scott Feldman (and Robbie Ross behind him), and the Yankees have Brad Meyers, Adam Warren, and David Phelps. Ditto about there being a major difference, and we're certainly not at any kind of disadvantage.

If you're looking for late season additions, the Yankees will be watching Baneulos and Betances, the Rangers Martin Perez and Neil Ramirez, while we've just got Wilson, who doesn't have the upside of the first three guys.

The Rays have insane depth, the Yankees late-season edge probably gives them the edge over us for having very good depth, the Rangers are solid but not in the class with the AL East clubs, and the Angels are ordinary at best.

Edited by Eric Van, 26 March 2012 - 12:25 PM.


#58 Toe Nash

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:20 PM

So if you compare the Sox, Yankees, and Rangers ....

The 5th starter fight is Aceves vs. Doubront, Hughes vs. Garcia, and a clusterfuck with Alexi Ogando, Neftali Feliz, Derek Holland, and Matt Harrison playing musical chairs for the 3, 4, and 5 spots. We may end up with the weakest 5th starter / longman combo of the three, but we might not. And even if we do, I fail to see where there's a worrisome pennant-deciding difference here.

Wait, hold up. The comparison with the Yankees is fair; both Hughes and Garcia have their questions, even if they probably have more upside than either Aceves or Doubront. But the Rangers are stacked. Holland was a strong prospect who threw 198 IP with a 3.98 FIP last year. Ogando had a 3.65 FIP in 169 IP. Feliz is of course converting from the pen, but he was a dominant starter in the minors and a very dominant closer in the majors. Harrison seems like he may be the odd man out -- and he had the best FIP of them all last year (3.52 in 185 IP).

If having 4 starters like that is a clusterfuck, I wish the Red Sox had a clusterfuck going on.

The Rays have insane depth, the Yankees late-season edge probably gives them the edge over us for having very good depth, the Rangers are solid but not in the class with the AL East clubs, and the Angels are ordinary at best.


The Rangers' and Rays' starting pitching is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL.

#59 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:29 PM

The Rangers' and Rays' starting pitching is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL.


The Rays, sure -- but the Rangers are going to be in a goddamn dogfight with Anaheim the whole season, and their pitching is as unproven as the Sox 4-5 starters.

Perez and Darvish and Ogando look really good on paper, but Haren-Weaver-Wilson-Santana have walked that walk.

#60 Toe Nash

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:36 PM

The Rays, sure -- but the Rangers are going to be in a goddamn dogfight with Anaheim the whole season, and their pitching is as unproven as the Sox 4-5 starters.

Perez and Darvish and Ogando look really good on paper, but Haren-Weaver-Wilson-Santana have walked that walk.

I should probably have said the Rangers' pitching depth was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the AL. Since that was what my post and the one I was responding to was about. As Eric noted the Angels are questionable beyond their top 4.

And I guess yeah, if you don't believe in Darvish, they have questions. I don't see him being poor though (and if he is, they have 5 other strong arms).

#61 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:44 PM

I have a hard time seeing an argument against the Rangers. That organization is probably in the best shape of any team in the majors right now. They're coming off an incredible three years, are a good bet to get back to the playoffs this year, have one of the best farm systems in the game and are managed by smart people who aren't afraid to cut a check.

That rotation looks really good. They have that fabled "good problem" in that they have a bunch of really talented kids they want to move to the rotation and just aren't sure which ones are the best of the bunch.

#62 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:14 PM

That rotation looks really good. They have that fabled "good problem" in that they have a bunch of really talented kids they want to move to the rotation and just aren't sure which ones are the best of the bunch.


Kinda like having Aceves, Doubront, and Bard all in competition for that final spot in the rotation with Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, and Matsuzaka?

#63 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

Kinda like having Aceves, Doubront, and Bard all in competition for that final spot in the rotation with Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, and Matsuzaka?


I wouldn't put Aceves, Doubront and Bard up with the Texas group. Bard could be as good as any of them, but I don't think Aceves and Doubront have ceilings that high. And Matsuzaka is good for only a half season. But I agree with your overall point that the Sox rotation is in pretty good shape. I'm really not that worried about them, especially when comparing them to the 2011 results.

#64 Eric Van


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:27 PM

Wait, hold up. The comparison with the Yankees is fair; both Hughes and Garcia have their questions, even if they probably have more upside than either Aceves or Doubront. But the Rangers are stacked. Holland was a strong prospect who threw 198 IP with a 3.98 FIP last year. Ogando had a 3.65 FIP in 169 IP. Feliz is of course converting from the pen, but he was a dominant starter in the minors and a very dominant closer in the majors. Harrison seems like he may be the odd man out -- and he had the best FIP of them all last year (3.52 in 185 IP).

If having 4 starters like that is a clusterfuck, I wish the Red Sox had a clusterfuck going on.

The Rangers' and Rays' starting pitching is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL.


I don't disagree at all that the Rangers and Rays are head and shoulders above the rest of the league in terms of the quality of 5 and 6, and the difficulty of choosing the odd man out.

So it comes down to what you mean by "depth." It's very rare that a team doesn't get a significant number of starts from 6 different guys. BP just did a whole analysis of rotations and based it on the first 6 guys.

To my mind, "depth" refers to 7 and beyond. That is, after all, what killed us last year.

A) Mastuzaka, Padilla, Cook at least until his opt-out, maybe Miller if he isn't claimed on waivers at some point, possibly Wilson in August
B) Pettitte, a trio of AAAA 5th starter types, and possibly Baneulos and Betances in August
C) Feldman, Ross, possibly Perez and Ramirez in August

One of the bold things is not like the others, which is why the Rangers have very solid depth, but not like ours or NY's. We probably have the best #7 option in Dice-K and the best #8 in Padilla -- at least until August.

Edit: and if you insert Dice-K and Pettitte as 4th starters and bump everyone down, then you no longer have Holland / Harrison / Feldman as head-and-shoulders above Bard / Aceves / Doubront or Nova / Hughes / Garcia. An edge, maybe (I'm not entirely convinced), but, if so, not a big one. And from 8 on down it looks like us & NY better than Texas ... so maybe it's a wash after all. But not an edge.

Edited by Eric Van, 26 March 2012 - 03:37 PM.


#65 Sprowl


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:52 PM

I moved the Matsuzaka discussion to the Whither Matsuzaka? thread.

#66 Dogman2


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:35 PM

I moved the Matsuzaka discussion to the Whither Matsuzaka? thread.

That is some excellent modding.

Now there are 3 votes for 100+ wins. Optimism knows no bounds.

#67 SydneySox


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:38 PM

I admit, I voted 100+ wins just to annoy you.

#68 JakeRae

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

That is some excellent modding.

Now there are 3 votes for 100+ wins. Optimism knows no bounds.

As does pessimism judging by the 12 votes for 81-85 wins. 100 or more wins is significantly more likely than 85 or fewer wins.

#69 quint


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:54 PM

As does pessimism judging by the 12 votes for 81-85 wins. 100 or more wins is significantly more likely than 85 or fewer wins.


When was the last time they hit 100 wins again?

#70 soxfan121


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:01 PM

As does pessimism judging by the 12 votes for 81-85 wins. 100 or more wins is significantly more likely than 85 or fewer wins.


How do you figure that? Please show your work.

#71 EvilEmpire

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:01 PM

As does pessimism judging by the 12 votes for 81-85 wins. 100 or more wins is significantly more likely than 85 or fewer wins.


I prefer to think of it as optimism. Sadly, I'm not quite so sanguine and predicted 86-90.

#72 Dogman2


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:44 PM

When was the last time they hit 100 wins again?


I think 194never. It's reasonable though.

Edited by Dogman2, 26 March 2012 - 09:45 PM.


#73 Rasputin


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:55 PM

When was the last time they hit 100 wins again?


While you have a point, you're also completely ignoring the fact that the last time the Sox won 85 games or less was 2001.

Not in 2011 where we lost two starters for almost the entire season and had a third put up the worst season of any pitcher in the game.

Not in 2010 where it certainly felt like every single position player got hurt at the same time for months at a time. We literally had significant injuries to key players on I think it was three consecutive days.

Even in 2006 where the baseline talent level was lower and we had a shit ton of injuries the Sox won 86.

So to get to 85 you have to be anticipating things worse than the two worst injury situations we've seen recently.

It's still probably more likely than 100 wins but if you put this team in, say, the NL Central, it wouldn't be.

#74 xpisblack

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:31 PM

Just addressing the areas mentioned above, the starting rotation is better, they have a good closer in Bailey, and Crawford cannot possibly suck more when he comes back.

Isn't this roughly what many were saying about Lackey just over a year ago, that he couldn't possibly get worse than he'd been the previous year? And look what he did last year.

Not, mind, that I believe Crawford will drop off the proverbial cliff as badly as did Lackey, but saying it can't possibly happen just gives me shivering shades of Manager C.M. Burns on the inevitability of winning his softball bet: he was sure he'd win it "[... u]nless, of course, my nine all-stars fall victim to nine separate misfortunes and are unable to play tomorrow. But that will never happen. Three misfortunes, that's possible. Seven misfortunes, there's an outside chance. But nine misfortunes? I'd like to see that!" Except that he managed to win despite eight key "misfortunes," and the Red Sox play in reality.

The one thing we know, or at least about which we can be reasonably certain, is that some members of this team will get injured and need replacing. Just looking at pitchers, chances are good they will need the standard 10-plus starters, possibly some replacements for a sub-mediocre month at a time, and some sort of revolving door in the 'pen (again, as usual). Injuries are going to happen. They're a reality of the game, and at a certain point we have to stop considering them "bad luck." Whom they afflict-- and how-- might be bad luck, but even assessing that is a bit iffy. The Yankees' losing a key reliever to a bizarre trampoline accident isn't bad luck: Chamberlain has always been a lunk and a meathead, and has been gearing up for an impossibly stupid self-inflicted injury for years-- he's always been a potential candidate for the "Hold my beer, I wanna try somethin'" Hall of Infamy. 2011 Lackey's being too... whatever the Hell he was to cop to his injury, stop pitching so poorly, and get treated wasn't bad luck, it was part of his risk profile as a self-important douchecan with as much self-awareness as a leaky burlap sack of sun-rotten chum (which, coincidentally, is what he most often resembles). JD Drew's tweaking something or other and missing a week here and there wasn't bad luck-- it was a given when he was signed.

As for this year's possible misfortunes (pitching edition): Bard wants to be a starter and has reportedly utterly reformed his conditioning to bank on his conversion-- reverting to a reliever would likely be difficult for him, should need arise (which could well happen), and he could struggle all around. Matsuzaka could come back and repeat his worst starts of the past few years, failing in his modest role as a mid-season back-of-the-rotation starter. Doubront (like Iglesias, though that's for another thread) is an injury risk, so he could well hurt himself pitching and vomit out a few atrocious starts littered with enough sparkles of competence to keep him at the top level longer than would have been, in retrospect, strictly wise. Beckett hasn't been sidelined by an avulsion or other eczema-related issues recently, and that could always happen again (possibly due to a new diet with some hitherto-unknown allergen in). Lester could red-ass his way into a blown shoulder by mid-May. None of those alone would really constitute bad luck-- it's how the game works. Going into potential offensive afflictions would be too depressing, so I'll leave that for another time.
Spoiler


So, obviously, the only thing a GM can do is to prepare for some worst-case scenarios and have contingencies for as many positions as possible. Apart from the corner outfield spots, this team seems to have a batch of decent spaghetti for the rest, more at some positions than others. Cherington has done his job. How well is clearly up for debate, but he's ensured that the organisation has 12-odd vaguely viable starters (not good, mind, or even solidly average, but sort of viable), a pile of variably crap-to-good bullpen arms, at least decent-for-AAA backups (certainly some of whom have questionable ML readiness) for most positions. Cherington has done that without mortgaging future competitiveness in the process. Now Valentine needs to work with what he's been given to field the winningest team he can arrange on each game-day, and he's inspired no confidence yet as to his ability to do that with this team. I hope he proves canny and brilliant and a strategic and tactical savant and all that, but I have stats-less fears about his management style derailing what could otherwise be a competitive postseason team.

Realistically, this team (like many other on-paper competitive teams in history) could win 78 games or 110, depending on some unforeseeable events (injuries, chemistry, timing, management, etc) for them and for the rest of the league. The idea that this team's projection somehow starts at the threshold of 100 wins and varies from there is so patently absurd it actually made me guffaw: suffice it to say I don't share EV's confidence. Should they win 105 games, I'd be pleasantly surprised, but not incredibly shocked. Should they win 82 games, I'd be disappointed, but not very shocked. But I hardly expect them to win 100*, give or take a few for misfortune, or to win a supposedly generous 85-- I expect them to fall somewhere in the 88-93 range, only with huge allowance bars in each side. But, then, the past seven months have so thoroughly warped my expectations and beliefs about the coming season that nothing would shock me at this point.

Unless Lackey were to come back healthy and early and win the 2012 Cy Young and MVP. That would shock me. But I reckon I'm safe on that front.

*: The Sox last won 100+ games in 1946; the only other times they've broken triple digits were in 1915 and 1912; by comparison, they've lost 100+ games 7 times, most recently in 1965. They've won 85 or fewer a Hell of a lot more often and more recently than they've won 100 or more. Not that that's meaningful, or even terribly topical, but... Well, I wrote this post.

#75 Eric Van


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:26 AM

The idea that this team's projection somehow starts at the threshold of 100 wins and varies from there is so patently absurd it actually made me guffaw: suffice it to say I don't share EV's confidence.


Except it's not my confidence. I'm just quoting sources. It's what the hitting and pitching stats of last year's team translate to. Give those stats to any sabermetrician and let him use any standard run metric, you'll get 100 wins plus or minus 1. BP has it as 99 wins, using True Average. Bill James has it as 101 wins, using Runs Created.

The team did a terrible job of turning basic offensive and defensive events into runs scored and runs allowed, and nearly as bad a job at turning runs scored and allowed into wins. Neither of those things have much predictive value, especially when you've changed managers. Whereas the offensive and defensive events, as summarized in the stats, do have predictive value.

The Sox were universally regarded as the best team in MLB on paper. They ended up being the third best (after the Rangers and Phillies) largely due to the Buchholz, Matsuzaka, and Lackey injuries. That they missed the playoffs while being that good was the result of non-predictive bad karma / inefficiency, not talent.

Back on topic -- looking at projections, one bit of regression that I didn't mention in my previous rundown is Beckett. No one projects him to have that kind of season again, and that definitely is also a reason why they're not likely to win 100.

It's true that they might have anywhere from 0-10 games lost to injuries (MLB average is about 3), and could be anywhere from +10 to -10 in terms of efficiency. That makes the season really hard to predict. But it would be really, really surprising if the expected wins based on the stats, after adjusting for injuries, were less than 95. I don't think there's any rational basis for projecting < 95 unless you are expecting lots of injuries or continued bad karma. If that's how you see the season playing out, that's perfectly legitimate (and in fact both of those things have happened so often that I have no problem at all with the consensus 91-95 wins). But if you think they're a < 95 win team because they aren't talented enough, I don't think that can be justified.

Edited by Eric Van, 27 March 2012 - 12:30 AM.


#76 EvilEmpire

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:51 AM

The Sox were universally regarded as the best team in MLB on paper. They ended up being the third best (after the Rangers and Phillies) largely due to the Buchholz, Matsuzaka, and Lackey injuries. That they missed the playoffs while being that good was the result of non-predictive bad karma / inefficiency, not talent.


That is an interesting way to look at it. Personally, I like to go by wins and losses, but understand that there might be a 'fail yet succeed' metric involved that I don't really understand.

#77 CaptainLaddie


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:17 AM

The Sox were universally regarded as the best team in MLB on paper. They ended up being the third best (after the Rangers and Phillies) largely due to the Buchholz, Matsuzaka, and Lackey injuries. That they missed the playoffs while being that good was the result of non-predictive bad karma / inefficiency, not talent.

Yeah you know what? This doesn't fly when you're looking at acquiring another pitcher for a possible Game 163. Talent involves depth, and they had none.

#78 SumnerH


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:53 AM

Except it's not my confidence. I'm just quoting sources. It's what the hitting and pitching stats of last year's team translate to. Give those stats to any sabermetrician and let him use any standard run metric, you'll get 100 wins plus or minus 1. BP has it as 99 wins, using True Average. Bill James has it as 101 wins, using Runs Created.


What's the conversion for runs created to wins, and is it adjusted for the division? If not, is it possible that a certain number of RC might actually be worth a couple or few fewer wins in the AL East than in a weaker division than the generic AL conversion would lead us to believe?

#79 xpisblack

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:29 AM

Except it's not my confidence. I'm just quoting sources. It's what the hitting and pitching stats of last year's team translate to. Give those stats to any sabermetrician and let him use any standard run metric, you'll get 100 wins plus or minus 1. BP has it as 99 wins, using True Average. Bill James has it as 101 wins, using Runs Created.

The team did a terrible job of turning basic offensive and defensive events into runs scored and runs allowed, and nearly as bad a job at turning runs scored and allowed into wins. Neither of those things have much predictive value, especially when you've changed managers. Whereas the offensive and defensive events, as summarized in the stats, do have predictive value.

The Sox were universally regarded as the best team in MLB on paper. They ended up being the third best (after the Rangers and Phillies) largely due to the Buchholz, Matsuzaka, and Lackey injuries. That they missed the playoffs while being that good was the result of non-predictive bad karma / inefficiency, not talent.

Back on topic -- looking at projections, one bit of regression that I didn't mention in my previous rundown is Beckett. No one projects him to have that kind of season again, and that definitely is also a reason why they're not likely to win 100.

It's true that they might have anywhere from 0-10 games lost to injuries (MLB average is about 3), and could be anywhere from +10 to -10 in terms of efficiency. That makes the season really hard to predict. But it would be really, really surprising if the expected wins based on the stats, after adjusting for injuries, were less than 95. I don't think there's any rational basis for projecting < 95 unless you are expecting lots of injuries or continued bad karma. If that's how you see the season playing out, that's perfectly legitimate (and in fact both of those things have happened so often that I have no problem at all with the consensus 91-95 wins). But if you think they're a < 95 win team because they aren't talented enough, I don't think that can be justified.

So... what you appear to be claiming is that every sabermetrician who used "those stats" was not only off by 9 to 11 wins out of a projected 100±1, but was right to be that wrong. Not that the numbers your sources used or the projections were wrong, but that reality was wrong to be so far off from you lot's projections. Because if the team had performed up to its projected ability, it would have won exactly 99-101 games, so the discrepancy must be attributable to statistically unpredictable causes. Causes like bad karma.

Except that no one team's offensive stats are sufficient to predict its ultimate success with any real confidence without taking into account its own replacement options and specific opposition (and the opposition's replacement options)-- and when that opposition includes 18-odd games against a team as deep as the Rays or as well-paid as the Yankees, rosters and opposition performances become just about impossible to predict. Which you pretty much admit in this most recent post, and yet your earlier one suggested that the projection has to start at 100 and be adjusted by a win or two from there, even though no Sox team, certainly not last year's precious paper squad, has hit that mark in over 65 years. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that expecting 100 wins is a mug's game.

In other words, it's exactly your confidence that I don't share-- the horoscopic confidence in extracting a certain incomplete constellation of numbers from a vastly more complex galaxy and believing that they alone can infallibly or even remotely reliably predict the future. And don't bother telling me that's not what you're doing here, because I already know and don't care. The 2011 Sox may have statistically underperformed, but saying right now that they were a 100-win team is utterly meaningless, because they wound up being a 90-win team on paper and on the field. The proper response is not to dismiss the reality as "they underperformed" or "[it was] bad karma," but rather to admit that the predictions were clearly incorrect and need tweaking in future.

Hang on-- the discrepancy between projection and reality stemmed from "non-predictive bad karma"? You've got to be joking, right? That's half a step away from pointing to "intangibles" as a concrete metric.

Oh, right: in your world, projections are based on speculative talent alone, and not in trying to allow further for the chaos of reality or precedent. In my world, if a team is-- before the season, on paper-- worth 100±1 wins, the chances of that team's winning 100 games are perishing small. If your calculations tell you the team is worth 100 wins, then a realistic projection has to be for anything between between 95 and 105 wins because of the likelihood of injury and the vagaries of chance. And even then, 95 is being dead optimistic (and 105 a pipe-dream). Of course, even rationally corrected projections last year would have predicted more than 90 wins, so chalk yet another in a long line of statistically anomalous seasons up to pure unpredictable chance instead of faulty numbers.

(Blah blah blah, some seasons have been well predicted, blah blah blah...: the accurate results are still in the vast minority)

Mate, you're giving the logical application and predictive power of statistical analysis a terrible name. Again. Still. Not that sabermetric analysis can't work; only that the present predictive algorithms tend to suck at, you know, accurately predicting reality. Evaluating the past, sure, and predicting a general tendency for a possible future, maybe, but actually predicting the future, no. Because if they did work, you'd not be posting your lot's tosh on this board, but rather spreading some smug grimace across newspaper pages for cleaning up at every venue that allows sports betting, former employment notwithstanding.

But I'm sure you have some secret proprietary formula that justifies your nonsense, so I'll just move on now.

#80 geoduck no quahog

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 04:31 AM

How do you do these metrics without considering the improvement in other teams relative to the Red Sox? I don't know how the statistical projections work, but my brain tells me that the Yankees, Tigers, Angels, Rangers (and Rays?) are improved - as well as some 2nd tier teams. I'm not going to micro-manage this impression - just bringing up the point that (for example) one would expect this Red Sox team to lose more games against the improved teams this year than last.

It's all relative -and that's what I'm not seeing. Logic asks me if the Red Sox of 2012 are as good (or better) than the Red Sox of 2011, how does that compare to a schedule of opponents who are also (possibly more) improved?

#81 SydneySox


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:39 AM

You don't, you just say they're only valid untill a team has injuries and/or 'bad predictive karma' whatever that Is. Because, you know, injuries and bad karma are pretty rare.

#82 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:35 AM

How do you do these metrics without considering the improvement in other teams relative to the Red Sox? I don't know how the statistical projections work, but my brain tells me that the Yankees, Tigers, Angels, Rangers (and Rays?) are improved -


How much are the Yankees really improved? They're going to throw the same guys out there in the starting lineup, with the exception of Ibanez for Posada (which strikes me as a frying pan/fire proposition), and of the eight returning position players, only three are under 30. The bullpen is the same (but, again, older). Yes, they added a couple of useful SPs, but it remains to be seen whether Pineda will outperform Colon's 2011 overachievement, and how well Kuroda will adjust to a much tougher league, division, and park.

Of course, they don't have to be any better to be really tough to beat.

#83 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:39 AM

Mate, you're giving the logical application and predictive power of statistical analysis a terrible name. Again. Still. Not that sabermetric analysis can't work; only that the present predictive algorithms tend to suck at, you know, accurately predicting reality. Evaluating the past, sure, and predicting a general tendency for a possible future, maybe, but actually predicting the future, no.


I can't believe I just read this on the main board. I just can't. Xp, your previous post had you looking forward to seeing the 2012 team to likely win between 78-110 games. No, really?

And even when you narrowed it down to 88-93, it's certainly not because of any analysis of talent on the roster or the organization, but instead because:

the past seven months have so thoroughly warped my expectations and beliefs about the coming season that nothing would shock me at this point.


Why not just say "math is hard, let's go shopping!" or something. I mean, I usually really like reading your wordcraft, but geez, man. Unless I'm mistaken, those 2200+ words of rambling over two posts boil down to these five: I'm scared, please hold me.

Which, in its own way I suppose, is pretty accurately taking the pulse...




[edit: tried to fix ugly formatting]

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 27 March 2012 - 07:54 AM.


#84 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:40 AM

You don't, you just say they're only valid untill a team has injuries and/or 'bad predictive karma' whatever that Is. Because, you know, injuries and bad karma are pretty rare.


When one tries to say that the on-paper predictions were correct and it was reality that turned out wrong, it's probably time to pres the reset button on the whole process.

#85 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:48 AM

When one tries to say that the on-paper predictions were correct and it was reality that turned out wrong, it's probably time to pres the reset button on the whole process.


Except that that can make perfect sense. Reality is always a combination of predictable factors and random shit. If your predictions come out wrong, it's worth trying to parse out to what degree that was a failure to scope the predictable factors correctly, and to what degree just an excess of random shit. Because if it was mostly random shit then there's probably no need to adjust the way you go about making predictions.

#86 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:52 AM

Except that that can make perfect sense. Reality is always a combination of predictable factors and random shit. If your predictions come out wrong, it's worth trying to parse out to what degree that was a failure to scope the predictable factors correctly, and to what degree just an excess of random shit. Because if it was mostly random shit then there's probably no need to adjust the way you go about making predictions.


Constantly predicting 100 wins every year if nothing goes wrong is utterly pointless because shit goes wrong every single year.

I would argue, as others have, that it was not random shit that went wrong last year. The team's depth failed them badly when injuries hit. That's not random problems, that's a top-heavy team not built for adversity in players' health. Hopefully they've learned from the experience.

#87 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:06 AM

Constantly predicting 100 wins every year if nothing goes wrong is utterly pointless because shit goes wrong every single year.

I would argue, as others have, that it was not random shit that went wrong last year. The team's depth failed them badly when injuries hit. That's not random problems, that's a top-heavy team not built for adversity in players' health. Hopefully they've learned from the experience.


When a team is constantly built by its GM for 95 wins every year, why is it pointless to predict 100 wins if nothing goes wrong? That sounds sensible.

_____________


Moving on, though. Obviously, shit goes wrong every year. But it's not always shit of the same magnitude. And, also obviously, sometimes you find a plunger under the sink to help it go down.

Since 2009's VMart trade -- when Theo gave Cleveland the Sox' plunger -- the Sox have been highly susceptible to injuries or ineffectiveness among its starting rotation. They still are. There's probably 2-3 years remaining to that window where they will continue to be. There's just no way to get completely around that, at least not unless there's some really rapid development from among Pimentel-Britton-Ranaudo-Barnes-Workman-Hernandez.

Now it's unfortunate that's exactly where the bad shit happened last season. What's even more unfortunate is that the bad shit was really, really bad.

But that was last year, and 2012 will see some new and different shit. Might not be as much, and it almost certainly won't be as bad.

#88 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:08 AM

When a team is constantly built by its GM for 95 wins every year, why is it pointless to predict 100 wins if nothing goes wrong? That sounds sensible.


No it doesn't, it's pointless verbal masturbation since things go wrong every year by the game's very nature. It's stupid. There's a reason the Sox haven't won 100 games in over 60 years. Predicting it year after year is silly.

If you want to play that game just take "shit going wrong" into account and adjust accordingly.

#89 nvalvo

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

Constantly predicting 100 wins every year if nothing goes wrong is utterly pointless because shit goes wrong every single year.

I would argue, as others have, that it was not random shit that went wrong last year. The team's depth failed them badly when injuries hit. That's not random problems, that's a top-heavy team not built for adversity in players' health. Hopefully they've learned from the experience.


Very little went wrong in 2007 except Gagne.

In that situation, the team really would have won 99 or 100 games without the high-profile and identifiable failure of one player who was projected (reasonably, based on a long track record) to be really good, but was instead really bad. Pretty much everything else went according to plan, except Matsuzaka wasn't quite what we'd hoped.

Depth can only insure for so many simultaneous injuries. At a certain point no one you'd want playing for you will sign with you, if they feel they will be too far down the depth chart. So you need homegrown arms, and, well, Doubront was hurt, and Bowden and Weiland sucked.

#90 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

Very little went wrong in 2007 except Gagne.

In that situation, the team really would have won 99 or 100 games without the high-profile and identifiable failure of one player who was projected (reasonably, based on a long track record) to be really good, but was instead really bad. Pretty much everything else went according to plan, except Matsuzaka wasn't quite what we'd hoped.

Depth can only insure for so many simultaneous injuries. At a certain point no one you'd want playing for you will sign with you, if they feel they will be too far down the depth chart. So you need homegrown arms, and, well, Doubront was hurt, and Bowden and Weiland sucked.


That's a good point. The 2007 team's pythag was 101-61, actual 96-66. And Gagne did cost them just about 4 games down the stretch with 8th inning implosions. But again, one guy derailed the 100 win plateau. Just one. So they were lucky in that regard and still fell way short of the mark. So again, there's pretty much zero point in saying they're gonna get 100 wins year after year after year, because it's far too easy to become derailed.

#91 Plympton91


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:28 AM

Why not just say "math is hard, let's go shopping!" or something. I mean, I usually really like reading your wordcraft, but geez, man. Unless I'm mistaken, those 2200+ words of rambling over two posts boil down to these five: I'm scared, please hold me.


This is tremendous.

#92 Worst Trade Evah


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:41 AM

Except that that can make perfect sense. Reality is always a combination of predictable factors and random shit. If your predictions come out wrong, it's worth trying to parse out to what degree that was a failure to scope the predictable factors correctly, and to what degree just an excess of random shit. Because if it was mostly random shit then there's probably no need to adjust the way you go about making predictions.

Exactly. Otherwise, you're just left with what boils down to "count THE rings!1" stuff. You have to try the analysis as best you can, knowing that despite best efforts things can go sideways -- as they did for the Sox last year.

I would be curious where the sabermetric projections are for the Sox winning 98-100 games are, however. I can't see much on B-P's site, though I no longer subscribe.

Some teams actually do go over their pythagorean projections -- in some cases, far over. The Red Sox for whatever reason haven't been lucky enough to do that much (some of which is probably crappy baserunning), but eventually they will.

As an aside, a lot of people try to evaluate managers on the basis of result compared to pythagorean projection, which makes no sense at all to me, since the manager is also making decisions which affect production of components used to generate pythagorean projections. In short, I don't blame Francona for the Red Sox falling under pythagorean projections.

Edited by Worst Trade Evah, 27 March 2012 - 09:46 AM.


#93 Red(s)HawksFan

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

I would be curious where the sabermetric projections are for the Sox winning 98-100 games are, however. I can't see much on B-P's site, though I no longer subscribe.

Only free content regarding projections that I see at B-P is this, which appears to be quite conservative across the board (only two teams projected over 90 wins). It does project the Sox to have the third most wins in the AL and in one of the two wildcard positions. That seems to support those here who are on the optimistic side even if B-P's projection is 88 wins.

#94 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:59 AM

No it doesn't, it's pointless verbal masturbation since things go wrong every year by the game's very nature. It's stupid. There's a reason the Sox haven't won 100 games in over 60 years. Predicting it year after year is silly.

If you want to play that game just take "shit going wrong" into account and adjust accordingly.


But what if, after adjusting accordingly for the most likely "shit going wrong" you still get to 100 wins?

Now, I don't personally think this team gets there, but I feel pretty confident expecting the team to win 97 games and the AL East. Because this team is once again loaded for bear, and in what I see as the 10 most likely places to adjust for "shit goes wrong" the team has some really good options -- and occasionally, multiple good options -- held in reserve.
  • Youkilis' annual trip to DL = Middlebrooks
  • Aviles' mediocre defense = Iglesias
  • Catchers' lack of offense = Lavarnway
  • Ortiz' age-related decline = Lavarnway, Anderson
  • Bullpen troubles facing LHH = Hill, Doubront
  • Bullpen allowing lots of HRs = Cook, Mortensen
  • Bullpen closing out games = Melancon, Bard
  • Bullpen bridging to closer = Padilla, Wilson
  • 5th Starter ineffectiveness = Cook, Padilla
  • 4th Starter ineffectiveness = Matsuzaka, Aceves
I will admit -- after some consideration I actually quite love the idea of planning the bullpen around two one-inning closers (ideally: Bailey, Melancon), one situational lefty (ideally: Hill), and four long-men with starter-quality stuff (ideally: Aceves, Cook, Doubront, and Miller). I haven't really noticed that strategy used before, but I think it's got a ton of potential and is really flexible for covering crappy starts and playing extra innings. Much moreso than the approach where everyone but one swingman is a one-inning pitcher.

So we'll see how that works out. And how much shit happens.

#95 ngruz25


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:00 AM

It does slightly worry me that the last time the Red Sox should have won 100 games (2007), they were the best run-preventing team in the league. Of course, they'll be able to produce plenty of runs this year, and the pitching should get better... but will it get that much better? Will it be cream-of-the-crop good?

Edited by ngruz25, 27 March 2012 - 10:02 AM.


#96 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:17 AM

Very little went wrong in 2007 except Gagne.


That isn't even really true, because you have to add at least:
  • #2 SP limited to making 24 starts;
  • #5 SP crash-and-burn for 23 starts;
  • offensive underperformance in RF;
  • offensive underperformance in CF; and
  • offensive underperformance at SS (really offensive)
But what went surprisingly well was Beckett, Gabbard, Buchholz, Okajima, Lowell, Pedroia, and Ellsbury.

The good and bad luck matched up better than we've seen lately -- certainly far and away better than the last two years.

#97 Toe Nash

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:21 AM

That's a good point. The 2007 team's pythag was 101-61, actual 96-66. And Gagne did cost them just about 4 games down the stretch with 8th inning implosions. But again, one guy derailed the 100 win plateau. Just one. So they were lucky in that regard and still fell way short of the mark. So again, there's pretty much zero point in saying they're gonna get 100 wins year after year after year, because it's far too easy to become derailed.


One point about that 2007 team is that Tito definitely eased off down the stretch as it was clear the Sox were at least making the playoffs (and that they had a high-percentage shot at the division). They "only" ended up winning the division by 2 games, but they were well set-up for the playoffs as we saw. They kept putting Gagne out there because they wanted to see if he could be a playoff asset. If they had needed to win games to make the playoffs I have to imagine they would have benched Gagne and probably ended up closer to 100 wins.

So maybe this year, with the different format, they try harder during the stretch because they need to win the division, and they get closer to 100? If they had lost the division in 2007 it wasn't that important, really.

#98 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:31 AM

I'm usually in the "Oh, look at what EV posted this time! Hilarious!" crowd, but with regard to his approach of starting with 100 wins if nothing goes wrong, why is he getting so much flak? Most people seem to be taking exception to he "nothing goes wrong" portion of the statement, and not the 100 wins as a starting point for making a prediction. This is an incredibly talented team that is aging and susceptible to injuries. They're not likely to have enough go right to win 100, and EV isn't arguing otherwise. He's saying that we've had more go wrong in the last two seasons than can reasonably be expected going forward. If the Sox do start at 100 wins based solely on their talent when healthy and not unlucky, and a normal amount of injuries and luck befalls the team, they're going to win less than 100. The question is, how many less?

EV seems to think 4 is a fair number of games to expect and thus claims 96-100 wins is the right bet if one were to put down money on the season. I think the age of the team combined with prior injury history means that number more likely to be at least 5 and could be as much as 9. So I voted for 91-95. Others might think that number is likely to be double digits, and have voted accordingly.

I'm all for jumping on EV (or anyone else) when he goes off the rails, but what about his posts in this thread is so ridiculous? 2011's team had a pythag record of 94-68, suggesting they should be better than the 90 real world wins they amassed last year. Those 94 theoretical wins include a career worst year from Crawford, a year of Lackey pitching with a shredded elbow, 52 starts from guys not in the rotation on opening day, no Youk down the stretch and an historically bad month in September, even with the injuries taken into account. If some of the luck was better, the pythag record should have been closer to 100. So I'm fine with starting about there when evaluating the team this year, which can expect a bit of regression, but should see significant improvement in most of the bad luck areas listed above.

I expect the team has roughly tread water talent wise when everything is taken into account and made my prediction based on what I expect for injuries and luck (both good and bad). Sounds like EV is doing the same thing, but he's EV, so people are going ballistic on him for it.

Edited by Snodgrass'Muff, 27 March 2012 - 11:32 AM.


#99 Dogman2


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

I'm usually in the "Oh, look at what EV posted this time! Hilarious!" crowd, but with regard to his approach of starting with 100 wins if nothing goes wrong, why is he getting so much flak? Most people seem to be taking exception to he "nothing goes wrong" portion of the statement, and not the 100 wins as a starting point for making a prediction. This is an incredibly talented team that is aging and susceptible to injuries. They're not likely to have enough go right to win 100, and EV isn't arguing otherwise. He's saying that we've had more go wrong in the last two seasons than can reasonably be expected going forward. If the Sox do start at 100 wins based solely on their talent when healthy and not unlucky, and a normal amount of injuries and luck befalls the team, they're going to win less than 100. The question is, how many less?


The starting point is the problem. Talent, luck, injuries and competition happen to every team every year which makes starting at 100 silly. I mean, the team has won 100 games like 3 times in their history, why is this the benchmark for determining a starting point? It's like you said, if you judge solely on their talent when healthy and not unlucky with normal amounts of injuries and luck they will win less than 100, so why start there? If using RS/RA as a predictor and that doesn't match what actually happened on the field, that makes the predictor flawed as well as the methodology.

So, why not start at 93 or 95 wins?

Edited by Dogman2, 27 March 2012 - 11:47 AM.


#100 patinorange


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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

100 wins? No.

I voted 91-95 and I think I am being optimistic. The last two seasons have gotten off to terrible starts. Last year's April horror show was just as bad as September's.
I'm counting on this team coming out of the blocks faster. Just a little more engagement and energy generated by Valentine???. They certainly are talented enough if things go relatively well.

Nothing would surprise me. The set up man and closer from last year's team were arguably the best in baseball. That could be difficult to replace or even come close.




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