221 replies to this topic

[soxfan121]

Sean McAdam:

Valentine has told a number of scouts from outside the organization that his clear preference is to have Iglesias open the season as his starting shortstop. Sources indicate, meanwhile, that the Red Sox front office is in favor of Iglesias getting additional experienced at Triple A Pawtucket to open the sesason, with Aviles opening the year at the major league starter.

Asked about the evaluation process before the Sox took on the Pittsburgh Pirates, Valentine was suitably cryptic

"I think we've seen a lot,'' said Valentine. "It will just be a determination on whether or not it's his time. He's played pretty well and showed really good progress. We've got to decide whether he has enough undergraduate credentials in order to take the next step forward.

"I think he can hit and field at the major league level. But I don't know that he can make the major league team and perform right now the way we need him to perform in this setting, in the group that we have.''

I have thought Iglesias would start the season at SS for a good while now. I would expect that Aviles starts the season and that Valentine's last line is the most important point. The rest is motivating Iglesias. Valentine is making all this noise now because when/if Aviles plays himself out of the job, Iglesias is going to get it, regardless of how he's hitting in AAA. Iglesias's defensive potential is off the charts - try and find someone who says he's not an above-average defender right now. The bat is a huge liability if his true talent level is reflected in his 2011 stats. However, there's signs that suggest his talent level might be higher and then it becomes a question of how much does the glove offset the bat?

On another note:
Since we all watch (presumably) watch every minute of every game, it might actually be possible to really quantify Iglesias's defense in a different, new, meaningful way. For that reason alone, I'm excited and hopeful about Iglesias's successful career here - SoSH's collective mind focusing on the defense (and metrics) intently. I'm looking forward to what our wizards will be able to discover during the coming Jose Iglesias Era.

[trekfan55]

I really want to see Iglesias playing SS for the Sox everyday, but I think he needs to start the year in AAA. That's a given.

2 things need to happen for him to get the job (other than an injury)

a. He hits really well in AAA so they decide to hand him the keys to the SS position early.
b. Aviles tanks it on either side of the ball badly enough to merit a demotion (to the bench).

Meanwhile, he is not ready to start, and I don't think the ST stats will really persuade Bobby V or Ben.

[reggiecleveland]

It has always seemed to me th trades of Scutaro and Lowrie have more to with the team's confidence in Iglesias than Aviles.

[C4CRVT]

Well, he does have the intangibles.

[Rasputin]

Starting anyone but Aviles at shortstop is lunacy.

You lose nothing by sending him to AAA, nothing. If he puts up a consistent month where he is hitting well (relatively speaking, low threshhold for "well") and the scouting reports are good then you can bring him up later.

Bringing him up now means you'd have to jettison Nick Punto and as much as we'd all love that, we'd hate it if Iglesias proved unable to handle Punto's jock offensively and had to go back down and we got some scrub off the waiver wire...wait...this is starting to sound good to me, get rid of Nick Punto and bring in a waiver wire scrub! GENIUS, I'm on board!

[Manramsclan]

Aviles should and will start at SS on opening day.

There is nothing to gain by doing anything else.

Best Case: Aviles hits and plays adequate defense and Iglesias gets to spend the season at AAA working on hitting.
Acceptable Case: Aviles hits and plays subpar defense and buys time for Iglesias to develop before being thrown to the wolves at the MLB level depending on his level of readiness
Worse Case: Punto ends up playing regularly because Aviles is terrible in the field and Iglesias is not ready

All of the scenarios assume that you give Aviles at least 40 games in the field to find out what you have.

All Bobby V is doing in this case is dangling a carrot in front of Iglesias: "If you go down, work hard, and improve you will play in the major leagues." It's a vote of confidence that he can be a major league player, nothing more.

[The Gray Eagle]

Who should start at SS on Opening Day: Scutaro.

Who will start: someone not really as good as Scutaro likely will be (which isn't even that high of a bar.) Either Aviles, who is worse with the glove, or Iglesias, who can't hit yet, or Little Nicky Punto, who is a second baseman with zero power and was on the DL three times last year, and is now 34 years old.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Is there any reason to think Scutaro can still play shortstop? If he can, he should have been the guy, but the fact that the only team willing to assume his contract wanted him as a 2B makes me skeptical. That being said, everything points to Iglesias. Not in favor, but with the uncertainty surrounding the pitching perhaps a great glove guy would help.

[Rasputin]

Is there any reason to think Scutaro can still play shortstop?

You mean other than that he was just fine there last year?

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

You mean other than that he was just fine there last year?

He's been basically right at average by UZR over the last 3 years, which combined with his age-36 season, leaves very little upside there - 'just fine' is relative in this case. He doesn't set a high bar for Aviles to clear with the glove.

Either Aviles, who is worse with the glove, or Iglesias, who can't hit yet, or Little Nicky Punto, who is a second baseman with zero power and was on the DL three times last year, and is now 34 years old.

Ah yes, the magical 34 year old threshold ... the same one Scutaro passed over 2 years ago.

Aviles likely won't look as smooth as Scutaro, but he very well could be within a run or three via UZR - Marco wasn't racking up exceptional numbers himself.

[Sprowl]

He's been basically right at average by UZR over the last 3 years, which combined with his age-36 season, leaves very little upside there - 'just fine' is relative in this case. He doesn't set a high bar for Aviles to clear with the glove.

Ah yes, the magical 34 year old threshold ... the same one Scutaro passed over 2 years ago.

Aviles likely won't look as smooth as Scutaro, but he very well could be within a run or three via UZR - Marco wasn't racking up exceptional numbers himself.

I used to worry that Aviles was worse than his numbers, couldn't make the spectacular play, and was as upright as Bill Hall, unable to bend down for grounders. In the meantime, he has continued to play a solid and unspectacular game in the field. He shows every sign of being just fine enough.

I think the Iglesias story will be fun to watch when he does come up, but Aviles would have to flop badly for it to happen before June.

[Koufax]

You guys are way too mature. I want Jose and I want him now. Last fall has made me care much less about whether they win or lose. I just want to be entertained.

[SoxScout]

DKnobler: Remember the fuss in Boston when the Red Sox traded Marco Scutaro? Scouts in Arizona say they can't believe how old Scutaro looks now.

[PrometheusWakefield]

I think the idea that Iglesias, having been totally outmatched in AAA last year, should be promoted to the majors is totally crazy. Nick Punto's career OPS is a hundred points higher than the number Iglesias posted last year in AAA and I'd say the chance of Iglesias making up for that difference with his glove is close to zero. I can't really speak for what it does to a player's development to be thrust into a major league starting role in the pressure cooker of Boston sports before he's been able to have even a tiny bit of success at AAA but I would strongly suspect it is a bad idea for his long term development.

The conversation as far as I'm concerned is between Punto and Aviles, and I think Aviles' upside makes him pretty clearly the choice. Offensively, I think Aviles is actually a much better bet to perform than Scutaro given their age difference. What I can't figure out is why he's posted a 12.4 UZR / 150 at shortstop (in 1,200 innings) when he's well below water at second and third.

[BucketOBalls]

You guys are way too mature. I want Jose and I want him now. Last fall has made me care much less about whether they win or lose. I just want to be entertained.

Just watch an NL team, same diff.

[Sprowl]

I think the idea that Iglesias, having been totally outmatched in AAA last year, should be promoted to the majors is totally crazy. Nick Punto's career OPS is a hundred points higher than the number Iglesias posted last year in AAA and I'd say the chance of Iglesias making up for that difference with his glove is close to zero. I can't really speak for what it does to a player's development to be thrust into a major league starting role in the pressure cooker of Boston sports before he's been able to have even a tiny bit of success at AAA but I would strongly suspect it is a bad idea for his long term development.

The conversation as far as I'm concerned is between Punto and Aviles, and I think Aviles' upside makes him pretty clearly the choice. Offensively, I think Aviles is actually a much better bet to perform than Scutaro given their age difference. What I can't figure out is why he's posted a 12.4 UZR / 150 at shortstop (in 1,200 innings) when he's well below water at second and third.

I think the UZR numbers reflect that he performed very well throughout 2008, when he was a star at shortstop. Then he tore his UCL, and when he came back, he bounced around the diamond. Recovery from TJ surgery takes multiple years, but so far I've been impressed by his throwing arm. He rarely bounces a throw to first base (I'm still suffering from Julio Lugo flashbacks).

[absintheofmalaise]

The conversation as far as I'm concerned is between Punto and Aviles, and I think Aviles' upside makes him pretty clearly the choice. Offensively, I think Aviles is actually a much better bet to perform than Scutaro given their age difference. What I can't figure out is why he's posted a 12.4 UZR / 150 at shortstop (in 1,200 innings) when he's well below water at second and third.

In addition to what Sprowl said, laughably small sample sizes that add up to a little more than an entire season spread out over 4 seasons. His Fangraphs page.

[luckysox]

Mike Aviles is going to be fine in the field and fine at the plate. How high is the bar for SS in Boston? Not. Very. High...since Nomar. And even he got chased out of town because of his defense at the end. It is certainly not high enough to rush Iglesias. Fine will get the job done this season. For fun, let's just list the names of Post-Nomar SSs and everyone can groan where they most want to for crap defense, crap offense, both, injuries, or plain old mediocrity: Reese (technically with Nomar, but the point stands), OCab (ok, he was decent on the run to the title) Renteria, Gonzalez v1.0, Lugo, Cora, Green, Gonzalez v2.0, Lowrie, Scutaro. I don't think it's worth it to have Iglesias come up and hit .206/.300/.305 in MLB (if he's lucky) when he could be getting a chance to really refine whatever hitting skill he has in AAA - it could end up making a huge difference in his offensive abilities and confidence later this season or all of next season. Mike Aviles can match the production in the field of all the guys on that list, save Gonzalez. Mike Aviles can match or exceed the production at the plate of all the guys on that list, save Lowrie's first part of last season. I do not even see how there is an argument, except that Booby V seems to like guys to question his confidence in them. He is, so far, one of the more negative managers I've seen. I flat out don't like the guy because of shit like this. This should not even be a conversation, and if it is one, it should be with the players, not the media.

[The Gray Eagle]

Ah yes, the magical 34 year old threshold ... the same one Scutaro passed over 2 years ago.

Aviles likely won't look as smooth as Scutaro, but he very well could be within a run or three via UZR - Marco wasn't racking up exceptional numbers himself.

The difference between Scutaro and Punto as shortstops is that Scutaro played almost three times as many innings at SS last year as Punto has played in the last 2 years combined. As of a few months ago, Scutaro was a fulltime SS in the majors, while Punto was a part-time secondbaseman who played a grand total of 61.1 innings at short the whole season, and a total of 31 games the year before that. Punto hasn't been a real SS for like 3 years now, which is why his age is relevant if you're talking about him suddenly becoming a regular SS again.

As for Aviles' defense, I was told on here by several people that we couldn't even trust Aviles' glove as a backup SS-- he wasn't good enough defensively to be our only SS backup, so we had to give Punto two years. Now he's good enough to play there every day?

Maybe he is, but a few months ago, no one on here was asking for Aviles to take over from Scutaro at SS. Aviles played all of 6 games at SS last year for the Red Sox. He played mostly at third after Youkilis went down, but even when Youkilis was in the lineup, no one was clamoring for Aviles to play SS every day. It was pretty universally accepted that Scutaro was the better choice overall. I don't see what happened this offseason to change that, except that the Red Sox decided to dump his decent contract to try to make up for some of the horrible ones they've given out.

It's not like Scutaro fell apart at the end of the season either, he played 26 games in September and put up an OPS of over 1.000. He was the better choice six months ago, and nothing's changed on the field to make it any different as of now.

Maybe this is the year that Scutaro falls off the cliff, his age certainly makes it possible. But he showed no signs of it at the end of last year, and as of now he'd be a more reasonable choice to start the season as the everyday SS than 2 guys in their 30s who have barely played the position for the past couple of years, or a kid who can't hit yet.

[Rasputin]

I don't know what is more incomprehensible, the 21 people who voted for Jose Iglesias or the 2 people who voted for Punto.

[Pearl Wilson]

(What Knobler said about Scutaro looking old)

Maybe this is the year that Scutaro falls off the cliff, his age certainly makes it possible. But he showed no signs of it at the end of last year, and as of now he'd be a more reasonable choice to start the season as the everyday SS than 2 guys in their 30s who have barely played the position for the past couple of years, or a kid who can't hit yet.

After the season Scutaro had in 2010, I considered his 2011 to be almost a miracle. He had so many problems in 2010 and played through them, and his ouchies seemed to be of the chronic variety. Coupled with his age, I was shocked that he didn't just fall apart in 2011. So I didn't question the trade so much.

It's interesting that BobbyV is publicly contrarian on the starting SS. It puts pressure on Aviles, who is a mature player and possibly will thrive on it. It lets Iggy know his future manager has confidence, but lest Iggy get to far ahead of himself, he also has to prove himself to the FO.

Does BobbyV always say what he thinks? Or is he being strategic about what he says to the press?

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

I think Iglesias is going to be a star..... Not just defensively either.

I think he has the make-up of a player who will never be intimidated by the level, I also think he has the confidence in his own game that even if he gets sent back down to Pawtucket once he's called up it won't discourage him.

I also think he'll hit at the MLB level.

That being said , I think he needs to see pitches. I think he needs to start in AAA simply to see more pitches. He simply hasn't been a professional for long enough to have adequate pitch recognition. I think once he gets some experience he could be a decent hitter who actually adds something on offense along with his superb defense.

[Savin Hillbilly]

The difference between Scutaro and Punto as shortstops is that Scutaro played almost three times as many innings at SS last year as Punto has played in the last 2 years combined. As of a few months ago, Scutaro was a fulltime SS in the majors, while Punto was a part-time secondbaseman who played a grand total of 61.1 innings at short the whole season, and a total of 31 games the year before that. Punto hasn't been a real SS for like 3 years now, which is why his age is relevant if you're talking about him suddenly becoming a regular SS again.

Punto is not a "part-time secondbaseman." He's a full-time utility infielder. His career starts at 2B, 3B and SS are 32%, 34% and 33% of his total GS, respectively. Yes, he played more 2B than anything else--last year. The year before that his time was mostly divided between 3B and SS. The year before that, evenly divided between 2B and SS. His position is Somewhere in the Infield Where They Need a Glove.

And until he was about Punto's age, that was more or less Scutaro's job description too, except he played less 3B than Punto, for reasons that we are now famliiar with. Through Scutaro's age-32 season, he had more career starts at 2B than SS. He's played almost two-thirds of his career shortstop starts in the past three seasons.

If either of the two them can be said to belong more at 2B than at SS, it's probably Scutaro. He got a career break when the Blue Jays needed a starting SS, and he ran with it, but he, too, is essentially a utility infielder.

[someoneanywhere]

Aviles. And Aviles. Jose up in a couple of months.

There is only one dynamic to keep track of here: he will be in there whenever the organization feels it can stick him there and weather his struggles. You can't stick Iggy in there and yank him at the first sign of trouble. When he sticks, he sticks -- no matter if he hits .178. You have to be prepared to let him do that, because if he goes up and down, up and down, you risk losing him for good. He has to know he has the confidence of the organization behind him, and the organization has to have the confidence behind him.

So they will send him down not only to see pitches, but to develop his and their confidence.

The bonus is that Aviles is versatile enough to help out when he's displaced -- but valuable enough to move in July, if need be, and actually get something helpful in return.

[Doctor G]

Aviles. And Aviles. Jose up in a couple of months.

There is only one dynamic to keep track of here: he will be in there whenever the organization feels it can stick him there and weather his struggles. You can't stick Iggy in there and yank him at the first sign of trouble. When he sticks, he sticks -- no matter if he hits .178. You have to be prepared to let him do that, because if he goes up and down, up and down, you risk losing him for good. He has to know he has the confidence of the organization behind him, and the organization has to have the confidence behind him.

So they will send him down not only to see pitches, but to develop his and their confidence.

The bonus is that Aviles is versatile enough to help out when he's displaced -- but valuable enough to move in July, if need be, and actually get something helpful in return.

The Phillies might be looking at Aviles if Freddy Galvis doesn't pan out. With Utley a big question mark, and Blanton bouncing back well this spring, the deal for Aviles could come sooner rather than later.

[Koufax]

If Jose needs to see more pitches, why can't he see them at Fenway rather than Pawtucket?

[EddieYost]

If Jose needs to see more pitches, why can't he see them at Fenway rather than Pawtucket?

Because the games that they play at Fenway are more important.

[Pumpsie]

Because the games that they play at Fenway are more important.

And the pitches are thrown by major leaguers. Tough way to build your confidence if you're being made a fool of atbat after atbat.

[tims4wins]

And the pitches are thrown by major leaguers. Tough way to build your confidence if you're being made a fool of atbat after atbat.

Pedroia was able to overcome this, but we all know he is an extremely confident guy.

I see Iglesias as more Rey Ordonez than even Omar Vizquel.

[SaveBooFerriss]

I voted Aviles to both questions.

The interesting question is who will be the starting SS on August 1, 2012? Right now I amd 40/40/20 -Aviles/Iglesias/some from outside the org.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Because the games that they play at Fenway are more important.

EddieYost FTW.

I mean, seriously, he's 22 years old and just finished a season in AAA where he struggled badly at the plate. The only reason we are even discussing him as a ML starting SS option is that he has, apparently, superhuman powers of defense. Will those powers go away because he plays another 40 or 80 or even 150 games in AAA? What's the downside to giving him a little more time to learn to hit before throwing him into the fire?

Pedroia was able to overcome this, but we all know he is an extremely confident guy.

And it made sense for the Sox to give him the opportunity to overcome it, because he was coming off a couple of solid offensive seasons in the minors. There's no similar rationale here. Giving Iglesias the starting job would basically be an act of blind faith in his offensive potential.

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

Pedroia was able to overcome this, but we all know he is an extremely confident guy.

Pedroia also had a history of minor-league success lightyears beyond what Iglesias has shown to date - he had the skills, he just needed to make the adjustment.

We have no idea whether Iglesias has, or will ever develop, MLB-caliber hitting skills. AAA is a great place for him to find out.

[tims4wins]

And it made sense for the Sox to give him the opportunity to overcome it, because he was coming off a couple of solid offensive seasons in the minors. There's no similar rationale here. Giving Iglesias the starting job would basically be an act of blind faith in his offensive potential.

Pedroia also had a history of minor-league success lightyears beyond what Iglesias has shown to date - he had the skills, he just needed to make the adjustment.

We have no idea whether Iglesias has, or will ever develop, MLB-caliber hitting skills. AAA is a great place for him to find out.

I totally agree with both of you - I think Iglesias should play at least half the year in the minors - wasn't arguing that they should give him a shot in the majors because of Pedroia.

Edited by tims4wins, 22 March 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[OnWisc]

I mean, seriously, he's 22 years old and just finished a season in AAA where he struggled badly at the plate.

Giving Iglesias the starting job would basically be an act of blind faith in his offensive potential.

This and this. And I think 'struggled badly' is painting Iglesias performance in the kindest possible light. Even if he could fully maintain his AAA performance against MLB pitching, I don't know what kind of defense he'd have to play to warrant a .235/.285/.269 bat in the lineup. And believing that, right now, he is not just ready to maintain that line against MLB pitching, but improve upon it, is precisely nothing more than blind faith.

If he is somehow suddenly MLB-ready, then that should manifest itself in the numbers he puts up in Pawtucket to start the year. I find it hard to imagine a scenario where we spend September lamenting that the Sox torpedoed their season by assigning Iglesias to the minors to start the year.

[TheoShmeo]

There seems to be an inherent assumption that another several months or a year at AAA will materially aid in the development of Iglesias' hitting and/or that his failure at the big league level at the plate would materially retard his development as a player.

I don't buy either assumption. To be clear, I don't doubt that more practice games could help Iglesias' hitting, but I don't think the difference or perceived gains is worth the delay.

And like most observers, I think the gap between Iglesias and Aviles (and Punto) in the field is massive. I see it as a difference that will save the Sox runs and have a positive intangible impact on the pitching staff or, at a minimum, some of its members.

Last, I'm not worried about the loss of Punto or, more likely, Aviles as a fallback if the Iglesias experiment fails. That might require the Sox to scramble for a replacement but so be it; neither of those guys has tremendous upside.

I'm in the signficant minority and perhaps I'm just missing it. But that's how I'm viewing this.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 22 March 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[EddieYost]

I am not certain whether more time in AAA will help him become a better hitter or not. I am sure that his minor league stats indicate that he would be really close to an automatic out. I hated the Mike Benjamin era and I think that's what we would be looking at offensively.

[JimBoSox9]

I don't know what is more incomprehensible, the 21 people who voted for Jose Iglesias or the 2 people who voted for Punto.

Frankly, I voted for Iglesias because I figured I'd be the only one and wanted to start some shit. Was that wrong?

[Rasputin]

Frankly, I voted for Iglesias because I figured I'd be the only one and wanted to start some shit. Was that wrong?

Well, obviously you weren't the only one, so...yes.

[Rasputin]

There seems to be an inherent assumption that another several months or a year at AAA will materially aid in the development of Iglesias' hitting and/or that his failure at the big league level at the plate would materially retard his development as a player.

I don't buy either assumption. To be clear, I don't doubt that more practice games could help Iglesias' hitting, but I don't think the difference or perceived gains is worth the delay.

Worth the delay? Iglesias' potential improvement at the plate is the difference between having a player worth having on your roster and not.

And like most observers, I think the gap between Iglesias and Aviles (and Punto) in the field is massive. I see it as a difference that will save the Sox runs and have a positive intangible impact on the pitching staff or, at a minimum, some of its members.

There is no question that he's a very good, possibly elite defender who will have a tangible impact on preventing runs.

Last, I'm not worried about the loss of Punto or, more likely, Aviles as a fallback if the Iglesias experiment fails. That might require the Sox to scramble for a replacement but so be it; neither of those guys has tremendous upside.

They don't have upside. They are what they are. And what they are is, at least in Aviles, a player worth having on the roster.

I'm in the signficant minority and perhaps I'm just missing it. But that's how I'm viewing this.

You're talking about a guy who is likely to hit a little better than the pitcher. A low average with no walks and no power. He was completely overmatched at AAA last year and has yet to demonstrate that he'll be anything but an automatic out. I don't think there is a level of defense that can make up for being a sucking chest wound at the plate.

[AZBlue]

Why did the Red Sox hire Bobby Valentine as manager when Rasputin was available? Apparently, Valentine is stupid, crazy and reprehensible becaue he thinks Iglesias is in the running for the starting shortstop position. Valentine's days are numbered.

[soxfan121]

I hated the Mike Benjamin era and I think that's what we would be looking at offensively.

I've seen Iglesias play a half dozen games and I've seen Mike Benjamin play many, many more than that. I've seen Iglesias make more defensive plays than Benjamin.

It's why I'm excited about Iglesias, when he arrives. Defense is often overlooked and measured imperfectly, at best. I've seen what SoSH's collective mind can do with respect to baseball analysis and I'm confident that Iglesias is going to be a guy who can (and will) be used to rethink how defense is valued.

Comping Iglesias to an average fielding, light hitting, fringe major league SS like Mike Benjamin is unfair and misleading. Iglesias's defensive ability projects him into an elite class of SS defenders. But no one wants to comp a guy who had trouble with injuries as a 21 in AAA and hit poorly to the truly transcendent defenders at SS.

If Iglesias hits like Mark Belanger and fields like Mark Belanger, is Iglesias a "good" major league player? This question is going to be fascinating to see answered over the next 10-15 seasons.

[EddieYost]

I've seen Iglesias play a half dozen games and I've seen Mike Benjamin play many, many more than that. I've seen Iglesias make more defensive plays than Benjamin.

It's why I'm excited about Iglesias, when he arrives. Defense is often overlooked and measured imperfectly, at best. I've seen what SoSH's collective mind can do with respect to baseball analysis and I'm confident that Iglesias is going to be a guy who can (and will) be used to rethink how defense is valued.

Comping Iglesias to an average fielding, light hitting, fringe major league SS like Mike Benjamin is unfair and misleading. Iglesias's defensive ability projects him into an elite class of SS defenders. But no one wants to comp a guy who had trouble with injuries as a 21 in AAA and hit poorly to the truly transcendent defenders at SS.

If Iglesias hits like Mark Belanger and fields like Mark Belanger, is Iglesias a "good" major league player? This question is going to be fascinating to see answered over the next 10-15 seasons.

I guess you missed the part where I said "offensively"? I almost compared him to a pitcher batting, but then I would have had to have said "and I don't mean Micah Owings". I get that Benjamin wasn't great defensively. My point is that Iglesias projects to be brutal at the plate and we can't afford that even if he is Ozzie Smith in the field.


Also - what Ras said.

Edited by EddieYost, 22 March 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Rasputin]

Why did the Red Sox hire Bobby Valentine as manager when Rasputin was available? Apparently, Valentine is stupid, crazy and reprehensible becaue he thinks Iglesias is in the running for the starting shortstop position. Valentine's days are numbered.

Show me where I'm wrong.

[Adrian's Dome]

Pedroia was able to overcome this, but we all know he is an extremely confident guy.

I see Iglesias as more Rey Ordonez than even Omar Vizquel.

Pedroia was ALWAYS able to hit well, at every level he's ever played at.

Iglesias has NEVER been able to hit well.

[stevman17]

I voted for Punto because for some reason I thought he was spending a majority of his time at SS. Now knowing this isn't the case, I would vote for Aviles.

This is why there should be some sort of intelligence test for voters.

[tims4wins]

Pedroia was ALWAYS able to hit well, at every level he's ever played at.

Iglesias has NEVER been able to hit well.

Yes, this has already been pointed out twice, and I completely agree

[Rudy Pemberton]

How good do we expect Aviles to hit? Career, he's a 288 / 318 / 419 guy; but last year he was just 255 / 289 / 409.

He's clearly a better hitter than Iglesias, but if you expect him to hit like he did last year, it's easier to start Iglesias.

If you expect Aviles offense to look more like his rookie year (325 / 354 / 480), then it's a lot harder to justify giving the job to the kid.

[PrometheusWakefield]

He's clearly a better hitter than Iglesias, but if you expect him to hit like he did last year, it's easier to start Iglesias.

Not really. Last year, Iglesias put up 54 runs created in AAA. Let's say he maintains that at the major league level - which of course means that he in fact takes a major step forward given the difference in opposition talent. Well, Aviles during his bad year produced 88 runs - a difference of 34 runs of offense. Even if you assume that Aviles is -6 defensively and that Iglesias is Omar Vizquel in his prime (+15 or so), he just can't possibly make it up with his defense.

And again, that's comparing a pretty generous upside for Iglesias and a pretty serious downside estimate for Aviles. There's really no way to make the math work in Iglesias' favor given his offensive performance in AAA.

Right now, Iglesias is not a major league quality player, and while he may be able to develop into one, there's no reason to embarrass him and ourselves by throwing him into a role that he's obviously not ready for.

Edit: Another way of making this point. Iglesias' 54 runs created would place him dead last among all regulars in offense. But lets again say he's Omar Vizquel with the glove. The +15 defense would move him all the way up to... the fifth worst regular in the league, above only Alex Rios, Casey McGehee, Miguel Olivo and Juan Pierre.

Edited by PrometheusWakefield, 22 March 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[tonyarmasjr]

Pedroia was ALWAYS able to hit well, at every level he's ever played at.

Iglesias has NEVER been able to hit well.

Yes, this has already been pointed out twice, and I completely agree

I don't. Our versions of "hit well" may be different, but his first year as a professional wasn't so bad. OPS by stop: .745 in the AFL, .958 at Lowell, .672 at Portland. SSS be damned, because a lot of the argument that he can't/never will hit is based on about 100 games. Sure, it's folly to think he's the next Pedroia at the plate, but to say he's never hit well isn't true, either.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I don't. Our versions of "hit well" may be different, but his first year as a professional wasn't so bad. OPS by stop: .745 in the AFL, .958 at Lowell, .672 at Portland. SSS be damned, because a lot of the argument that he can't/never will hit is based on about 100 games. Sure, it's folly to think he's the next Pedroia at the plate, but to say he's never hit well isn't true, either.

Fair to say is that he's never hit as well as Pedroia did at any level along his development. At each stop, Pedroia demonstrated a knack for starting slow, then tearing the cover off the ball. So when the slow start happened at the big league level, they let him ride it out and it paid huge dividends.

Iglesias has never sustained high production at any level, and has not yet demonstrated he can produce adaquetely at the AAA level. Until he demonstrates such an ability, he shouldn't be handed an everyday job at the big league level.

I would hope that those, like me, who think he needs to start the season in Pawtucket don't think he needs to put up a .900+ OPS for a full season down there before he gets called up. All I'm honestly looking for is a sustained period (2+ months) over .700 OPS before they ask him to hit in the big leagues on a regular basis. Not that they should rush him up immediately if he does that, especially if Aviles is holding his own. But other than on an emergency basis, they shouldn't think of bringing him up before they see that from him.