602 replies to this topic

[Darnell's Son]

Lose, I think it depends largely on how helpful he is with the ongoing investigation. If he drops names, he might be back someday, if he doesn't, then he's done.

[soxfan121]

If Williams is smart, he'll volunteer to do a speaking tour for the NFL on player safety or whatever the NFL asks. Unlike Payton & Loomis, he's all alone now that Fisher has cut him loose.

[Darnell's Son]

Senate wants a hearing...yay.

http://espn.go.com/n...ng-bounties-nfl

[Old Fart Tree]

Senate wants a hearing...yay.

http://espn.go.com/n...ng-bounties-nfl

I for one am happy that the needs of this country are so mild that the Senate can prioritize investigating Bountygate so as to get their faces on television looking righteously indignant.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It's the least they can do after the Arlen Specter nonsense.

[OilCanShotTupac]

I'm kind of surprised that the NFL is doling out the punishments for the organization and coaches separately from the players. Why keep this in the news and keep killing the Saint's fans? The only reason I can see is because they wanted to give the organization as much time as possible to get a transition and they have not had a chance to talk to all of the players involved or work out a punishment with the NFLPA, but it just seems like they would want to get the punishments out there and not keep bringing this back to the forefront. The day after Manning goes to the Broncos and the day that Tebus is traded; what are they going to do next announce the player suspension at the conclusion of the first round of the draft? The cynic in me thinks Goodell is running out of video of himself looking tough on ESPN to beat off to and wants more, but it seems bad PR for the NFL to keep this in the news. Way to keep reminding Saints fans not to buy any new Saints gear or perhaps tickets to the games.

You're kidding, right? The NFL should back off out of sensitivity to Saints fans?

LOL boo hoo.

This is a serious matter and is being treated appropriately by the league. That bounties and headhunting are both very illegal and very wrong is belaboring the obvious. What about everything we've heard about head and spinal injuries? A few guys have already been paralyzed. Frankly they are lucky that no one has suffered a fatal injury in an NFL game. If a player is ever killed, and IF (admittedly a big if) it ever comes out that the defender making the hit was trying to collect on a bounty. . .the NFL could be in serious trouble as an ongoing concern. See how fast advertisers fall over each other to get away from the NFL if that (again, admittedly worst-case) scenario ever comes true.

They are 100% right to crack down on it and to take it seriously in the press, and if they sell a few fewer Drew Brees bobbleheads, who gives a fuck?

[Stitch01]

The NFLPA statement hinted at why the player punishment is harder. They want to interview the coaches involved and said they havent as of yet. I imagine that if they they think the bounty system was designed and run by the coaching staff they will fight punishment tooth and nail.

[dcmissle]

The NFLPA statement hinted at why the player punishment is harder. They want to interview the coaches involved and said they havent as of yet. I imagine that if they they think the bounty system was designed and run by the coaching staff they will fight punishment tooth and nail.

You mean, like this, courtesy of PFT.com --

Citing multiple anonymous players, David Elfin writes at the Washington, D.C., CBS affiliate that when the Redskins opened the 2006 season against the Vikings, Williams (who was then the team’s defensive coordinator) made a specific point of telling his players to go after Brad Johnson, the Vikings quarterback who had previously played for the Redskins.

“Gregg came in and dropped $15,000 on the [table] and said, ‘Brad Johnson doesn’t finish this game,’” one player said.

Greg Blache, who was a defensive line coach under Williams at the time and later succeeded Williams as the team’s defensive coordinator, has said that he disliked and discontinued the bounty program. But Elfin quotes that same unnamed player as saying that in reality, Blache was offering players money to compensate them for any fines they got for illegal hits.

“Greg Blache said, ‘If you get fined, it will be taken care of,’” the player said.

Another unnamed player offered similar memories about Williams targeting Johnson before that Week One game in 2006.
“I can’t say for sure it was $15,000, but I definitely remember that happening before that Minnesota game,” the second player said. “And I can’t say for sure that those were G-Dub’s exact words about Brad Johnson, but that was certainly the message. I had never heard anything like that before from a coach, but I wasn’t shocked because that was G-Dub’s character, so in your face. His language was always X-rated and our meetings were usually pretty nuts.”

I'm beyond angry at this point. The two Greg(g)s suck. Williams is obviously a sociopath; Blache a sanctimonious douchebag who has tried to create the impression publicly that he was against this.

[Stitch01]

Yup, exactly, if that's what was going on was under coaches orders its going to be real hard to discipline the players.

Gregg Williams obviously should be done as a coach.

[Reverend]

Good points--if the NFL decides it wants to be among the first organization in history that punishes the decision makers and not the foot soldiers, I'm down.

[Gdiguy]

Good points--if the NFL decides it wants to be among the first organization in history that punishes the decision makers and not the foot soldiers, I'm down.

I agree that it's going to be unlikely that they discipline players for collecting the bounties, unless they can find a really really bad late hit and have very solid evidence a bounty was collected for it (and even then, it's basically impossible to prove it was intentional). Although, if they somehow got their hands on some sort of records of what bounties were collected, I can see them 'asking' players to donate that money to charity

However, I do think that it's unlikely that no players will be punished, but to me it comes down to two questions:
1) Did any players lie about the bounties during the investigation (either now or during the first one a couple years ago) - they won't be anywhere near as serious as the coach penalties, but if a player told the NFL that no bounty system existed (and especially if they have evidence that player actually paid into the pool), I can see them getting a decent fine (or at most, a game or so suspension)
2) Were there players that were particularly gung-ho about putting money into the bounty pool - I doubt anything will come of the players that put in a few hundred bucks every now and then, but the NFL may make an example of one or two players that did the majority of the bounty funding

[Super Nomario]

Bill James wrote, "Almost all scandals, I think, result not from the invention of new evils, but from the imposition of new ethical standards.” For better or worse, that's clearly what's happening here. It's not that the Saints did anything other teams haven't done through the years, but the outcry and punishment reflects the fact that, as a society, we no longer find these practices acceptable. That is a little unfair to New Orleans, but it's also how ethical progress is made.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Bill James wrote, "Almost all scandals, I think, result not from the invention of new evils, but from the imposition of new ethical standards.”

Its not particular relevant to the current situation, but I need to point out the stupidity of this quote. Obviously, most scandals result neither from the invention of new evilsnor from the imposition of new ethical standards, but from the practice of "old evils" which violate "old ethical standards." Like Eliot Spitzer banging prostitutes or Bill Clinton getting blown in the oval office.

Edited by Morgan's Magic Snowplow, 23 March 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[dcmissle]

Its not particular relevant to the current situation, but I need to point out the stupidity of this quote. Obviously, most scandals result neither from the invention of new evilsnor from the imposition of new ethical standards, but from the practice of "old evils" which violate "old ethical standards." Like Eliot Spitzer banging prostitutes or Bill Clinton getting blown in the oval office.

Awesome note on which to begin the w/e.

[Reverend]

Its not particular relevant to the current situation, but I need to point out the stupidity of this quote. Obviously, most scandals result neither from the invention of new evilsnor from the imposition of new ethical standards, but from the practice of "old evils" which violate "old ethical standards." Like Eliot Spitzer banging prostitutes or Bill Clinton getting blown in the oval office.

You guys may only be in disagreement over the issue of "imposition."

Edited by Reverend, 23 March 2012 - 04:20 PM.

[Super Nomario]

Its not particular relevant to the current situation, but I need to point out the stupidity of this quote. Obviously, most scandals result neither from the invention of new evils nor from the imposition of new ethical standards, but from the practice of "old evils" which violate "old ethical standards." Like Eliot Spitzer banging prostitutes or Bill Clinton getting blown in the oval office.

FDR had an affair with a staffer. JFK didn't exactly keep it in his pants. What changed is not what folks in a position of power were doing, but how much society turned a blind eye to it.

I think you're right in the sense that the scandals in some since violate "old ethical standards," but James' point is that the enforcement of those standards is lax to the point that the standards may as well not exist. That's true in the case of philandering presidents, it was true in the case of steroids (which IIRC is what James was specifically referring to), and it's true in terms of the Saints here.

EDIT: I'm mistaken, James was talking about Robin Yount ... and Watergate. http://the-spyglass....ak-scandal.html

Edited by Super Nomario, 23 March 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

Senate wants a hearing...yay.

http://espn.go.com/n...ng-bounties-nfl

Not to go too V&N on this but how 'bout Harry Reid and company pass a fucking budget for the first time in 3+ years before they hold human interest/vanity/celebrity hearings.

Edited by Rough Carrigan, 23 March 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[snowmanny]

Bill James wrote, "Almost all scandals, I think, result not from the invention of new evils, but from the imposition of new ethical standards.” For better or worse, that's clearly what's
happening here. It's not that the Saints did anything other teams haven't done through the years, but the outcry and punishment reflects the fact that, as a society, we no longer find these practices acceptable. That is a little unfair to New Orleans, but it's also how ethical progress is made.

There's some truth to what you say, but three posts before yours they quote a player saying he'd never seen anything like this. This idea that everyone was doing this is really NOT backed up by the preponderance of the evidence.

Also, lying to the Commissioner is a really really bad idea. That probably tripled the punishments.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Never seen anything like this? Buddy Ryan was doing this 20 years ago. The Saints' program was more systematic and that's a fair difference, but there's nothing about bounties that's really new. I think the James quote fits well here: it's no longer acceptable behavior because the ethical standards have evolved from 20 years ago.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Bill James wrote, "Almost all scandals, I think, result not from the invention of new evils, but from the imposition of new ethical standards.” For better or worse, that's clearly what's happening here. It's not that the Saints did anything other teams haven't done through the years, but the outcry and punishment reflects the fact that, as a society, we no longer find these practices acceptable. That is a little unfair to New Orleans, but it's also how ethical progress is made.

Or, if you want to think about it in a more realistic way, it's not the imposition of new standards but the emergence of new pathways of information. Buddy Ryan may have been dumping cash on the table, but the thing that did in the Saints was the EMAIL trail linking the organization (and thus the NFL) to the scandal.

Similarly, an intern may have saved a dress from an encounter with JFK but no one has the means of linking it to him.

Etc.

[Dehere]

Also, lying to the Commissioner is a really really bad idea. That probably tripled the punishments.

Goodell doesn't really have to explain himself to anybody but I wish he would detail how much of the suspensions are for the actual bounty program and how much are for the attempted cover-up. I agree with you. I think most of Payton's suspension is for the lying.

[Super Nomario]

Or, if you want to think about it in a more realistic way, it's not the imposition of new standards but the emergence of new pathways of information. Buddy Ryan may have been dumping cash on the table, but the thing that did in the Saints was the EMAIL trail linking the organization (and thus the NFL) to the scandal.

Similarly, an intern may have saved a dress from an encounter with JFK but no one has the means of linking it to him.

Etc.

In the case of the Saints, I think the technology driving the scandal isn't email as much as it is the neurological tests that have revealed the damage caused by CTE. But that fueled the outcry about things like bounties, not the ability to discover bounties.

Certainly you're right that some of the things the Saints (or Clinton) did contributed to them being caught. They did something wrong, and they did something stupid to get caught. But the point James is making is that if the Saints hadn't gotten caught for doing bounties, somebody else would have. Made it would have been a couple years from now, but sooner or later we would have had a "Bountygate," because there's a stronger public outcry against an activity that has been accepted in certain circles behind the scenes.

[soxhop411]

"Sean Payton approaches Bill Parcells about coaching Saints.
Did anyone just see that on ESPN?

[tims4wins]

"Sean Payton approaches Bill Parcells about coaching Saints.
Did anyone just see that on ESPN?

http://espn.go.com/n...job-sources-say

[SoxScout]

That would be awesome, and it would seem like a no lose situation with lowered expectations and a good team, no?

[soxfan121]

Who, exactly, is in charge of the New Orleans franchise? Tom Benson or Sean Payton?

I do think having Parcells step in as interim HC is a stroke of brilliance and I'd love to see it happen but it really feels like the lack of institutional control in New Orleans is Benson not exercising his authority and instead delegating it to Payton/Loomis, which is just WEIRD.

[CJChap]

Why do people assume that Payton doesn't have Tom Benson's blessing to ask Parcells? Reports are saying its "unclear" whether he does or not, but there's some jump to conclusion that he has not.

[soxfan121]

Why do people assume that Payton doesn't have Tom Benson's blessing to ask Parcells? Reports are saying its "unclear" whether he does or not, but there's some jump to conclusion that he has not.

[teddykgb]

I know it's been repeated ad nauseum lately, but this NFL offseason has been just magnificent. Parcells coming out of retirement to coach the Saints for one year? Sign me up.

[jose melendez]

Payton has to be extremely self confident to push for Parcells. Bill isn't one to share credit.

[DrewDawg]

But he didn't buy any groceries.

[soxhop411]

NVM

Edited by soxhop411, 26 March 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[dcmissle]

Jersey guy doing a solid --

“If this guy says to me, ‘Bill, I need you to do this,’” Parcells said of Payton, “That’s what friends are supposed to be for.”

Glauber wrote on Twitter that after the interview, he’s convinced Parcells will take the Saints job if he’s asked.

Parcells framed the opportunity to coach the Saints as the opportunity to help a friend in need.

“The thing with this one,” he said, “it’s a little more personal to me, because this is one of my guys.”

"I need you to do this." Sounds like conversation over coffee at Satriales. It's crap, but i love it.

[soxhop411]

Amy Lawrence ‏ @AmyLawrenceESPN
More trouble brewing for Saints in wake of Bounty Hunting. The AP reports NFLPA is telling players involved they may face criminal charges

[shoosh77]

Always liked "Loose" One Turn instead of Lose.

[jose melendez]

Amy Lawrence ‏ @AmyLawrenceESPN
More trouble brewing for Saints in wake of Bounty Hunting. The AP reports NFLPA is telling players involved they may face criminal charges

If that's true--and I am profoundly skeptical that it is--whoever is prosecuting had better subpoena league reecords on all of this stuff. I have no doubt that bounties have been part of the game forever, and that New Orleans' crime, from the NFL perspective, was not stopping when the NFL said to (see spygate) and obstructing the league investigation. If prosecutors are going to look at taking on individual players, the crimes they see are crimes whether it was after the league sent out a memo or before, and just going after Saints players--if this has been going on for decades--is whack.

[DrewDawg]

It's really annoying to hear former players say that the bounty system was prevalent, because after all, the team they played on gave a cash payment for things like a special teams tackle inside the 20. I heard another one making the comparison this weekend. It's intellectually dishonest because that's not what's being talked about.

[Judge Mental13]

^^ I interpreted that as players from other teams essentially saying "Yeah, we all do this, but we're not going to out and out say that we do it because the Saints are getting euthanized so we'll say we did something similar"

[MentalDisabldLst]

No, I mean, there's a big spectrum for this kind of behavior, all of which could be called "bounties" but only some of which is really concerning.

Bounties for making great legal plays: OK. I'm all about incentive pay.
Bounties for intentionally injuring players: Ban them from the league

[pappymojo]

No, I mean, there's a big spectrum for this kind of behavior, all of which could be called "bounties" but only some of which is really concerning. Bounties for making great legal plays: OK. I'm all about incentive pay. Bounties for intentionally injuring players: Ban them from the league

Not to get off point, but even incentive pay for legal plays should be discouraged as it bypasses the salary cap. If off-the-books incentive based bonuses are okay, what's to stop a team like Dallas from paying some players an extra $100,000 a year ($20,000 a pop for five nice tackles over the course of a year)? Seems to me that would be enough to tilt the free agent process, especially if you are talking about special team players.

Edited by pappymojo, 02 April 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[Mystic Merlin]

Not to get off point, but even incentive pay for legal plays should be discouraged as it bypasses the salary cap. If off-the-books incentive based bonuses are okay, what's to stop a team like Dallas from paying some players an extra $100,000 a year ($20,000 a pop for five nice tackles over the course of a year)? Seems to me that would be enough to tilt the free agent process, especially if you are talking about special team players.

Yeah, I believe 'bounties for making great legal plays' = your salary. Otherwise it's cap circumvention, i.e., under the table payments.

[SumnerH]

If that's true--and I am profoundly skeptical that it is--whoever is prosecuting had better subpoena league reecords on all of this stuff. I have no doubt that bounties have been part of the game forever, and that New Orleans' crime, from the NFL perspective, was not stopping when the NFL said to (see spygate) and obstructing the league investigation. If prosecutors are going to look at taking on individual players, the crimes they see are crimes whether it was after the league sent out a memo or before, and just going after Saints players--if this has been going on for decades--is whack.

Why is it whack? The Saints are different from other teams in that there appears to be actual hard evidence rather than just speculation, which is hugely important when deciding whether to prosecute a case.

I'm skeptical--I think even with evidence that bounties existed it's still a very tough criminal case to make unless they have clear evidence that players were knowingly going for hits outside the bounds of the rules. And they're not going to start a criminal case unless they're pretty sure they can win it.

But if there are actual admissions that, for instance, a player knew a play had been whistled dead and then went ahead and put a hit on someone (and I mean really a premeditated decision to hit after the whistle--not a situation where it's unclear whether the whistle blew, or momentum carried a hit through after it blew), then that isn't football anymore--it's battery, and should be charged as such a la Mcsorley or Bertuzzi in the NHL.

[soxfan121]

Is Parcells Right for the Saints?

Barnwell builds his argument on two key Parcells facts - his success has been built on a specific system (the ground game on offense, the 3-4 defense) and his personnel acumen (great shopper for groceries) - neither of which are needed (or wanted) on the Saints.

But he misses the third great skill Bill Parcells has as a head coach - handling the media. And the Saints need a strong public voice, focused on football (and not the scandal) and someone with the gravitas to walk into the locker room and say "Coach Payton asked me to be here and I'm here. What I say goes. We are here to talk about football, not scandals, not how the NFL fucked us - FOOTBALL GAMES." With strong coordinators empowered (by Payton) to run their departments, Parcells can be the public face and only person commenting which might help the Saints win football games.

[RetractableRoof]

Yeah, I believe 'bounties for making great legal plays' = your salary. Otherwise it's cap circumvention, i.e., under the table payments.

But is it really? How is this different from MLB pitchers having a pool for whoever has the least amount of walks? No cap? OK, or the NBA players having a player pool for whoever has the most steals for the season? If it is money going from player to player for a legal play and not from team to player I don't think the league should be chasing that any more than ncaa bracket pool gambling should be chased.

[williams_482]

Is it circumnavigating the cap if it is a player financed poll, not a team run reward system?

[JakeRae]

Is it circumnavigating the cap if it is a player financed poll, not a team run reward system?

I'd assume not.

Even if it's team financed, the morality is dramatically different. And, personally, I have no problem with criminal charges being filed against any player that can be shown to have intentionally injured another player or intentionally attempted to. The game is violent and dangerous and that is part of the game. No player should face criminal charges for unintentional harm that results from that violence and the standard for showing intention to harm would need to be extremely high in these cases.

Finally, a congressional inquiry is a joke. The federal government has much more important things to do than investigate our professional sports leagues. The NFL, the fans, the media, and law enforcement all have legitimate interests in investigating what happened here. This isn't the sort of thing the legislature exists to do and if they did their job half as well as the NFL does its, things would be much better in this country.

[RFDA2000]

But is it really? How is this different from MLB pitchers having a pool for whoever has the least amount of walks? No cap? OK, or the NBA players having a player pool for whoever has the most steals for the season? If it is money going from player to player for a legal play and not from team to player I don't think the league should be chasing that any more than ncaa bracket pool gambling should be chased.

Those pools aren't being overseen or financed by the teams. Player to player transfers of funds may be an issue for the IRS, but I doubt the NFL would have an issue. When money starts coming from or through the organization (coaches, owner, friends of those people) it becomes a salary cap issue in my mind, and you seem to acknowledge that too. That's been shown to be the case for the Saints.

Edited by RFDA2000, 03 April 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Bob420]

Wouldn't this reset his HOF clock? That's a lot at his age for 1 season of coaching.

[MentalDisabldLst]

Wouldn't this reset his HOF clock? That's a lot at his age for 1 season of coaching.

I'm sure they could figure out a way to have this year not "count", if it were truly a one-off year. Something like hiring him as a "special consultant", but where everyone knows he's really the head coach. It's a win for the HOF as well as Tuna.

[JCizzle]

Yeah, he's done for good. He was pointing out specific places on the body to target players, which is kind of unreal.

There was a lot of talk into the lead up to the SF-NO playoff game about how the Saints were blitzing an abnormally large amount in the first preseason game (especially with a new coach and no offseason). This is a dirty, dirty team.

Edited by JCizzle, 05 April 2012 - 08:15 AM.