602 replies to this topic

[Gambler7]

Uh oh...

Jason La Canfora ‏ @JasonLaCanfora-
NFL announces a comprehensive investigation find Saints defense and coaches guilty of violating NFL rules by having bounties on opponents...

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
Investigation reviewed 18.000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches.

mike freeman ‏ @realfreemancbs
Total amount in bounty pool may have reached $50,000 or more at height during 2009 playoffs.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices.

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
NFL investigation of Saints began in 2010 when allegations were made that Saints targeted QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner.

Edited by Gambler7, 02 March 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[Gambler7]

daniel kaplan ‏ @dkaplanSBJ
The program paid players $1,500 for a “knockout” and $1,000 for a “cart-off” with payouts doubling or tripling during the playoffs.

Yea, they are going to face a huge punishment here. Should exceed spygate.

[djc]

has to be more severe than Spygate, right? A direct violation of a rule that involves player safety.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

50,000 pages on bounties? Holy shit.

It will be very interesting to see how Goodell overreacts to this. He went batshit nuts with Spygate, but this is actually about deliberately injuring players. We'll see.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

has to be more severe than Spygate, right? A direct violation of a rule that involves player safety.

One would think, but since Goodell's a circus clown it's no slam-dunk that he'll come down harder than Spygate. He's funny that way.

[tims4wins]

Asterisk goes next to their 2009 title

(kidding)

Edit: I'm more curious to see how the media reacts to this than Goodell. This is a far more reprehensible act than SpyGate, IMO. We'll see if the media acts accordingly.

Edited by tims4wins, 02 March 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Seels]

I mean, it was pretty obvious during the 2009 playoff run. I hate Favre but its really despicable what they did in that NFCCG.

[Gambler7]

daniel kaplan ‏ @dkaplanSBJ
NFL says Saints owner Tom Benson unaware of the program. But does not excuse head coach Payton, whom NFL says was aware of program

I'm not naive enough to think this is the only team int he NFL that has done this, but with this amount of evidence, they need to make a statement and the New Orleans Saints are going to be made an example of here, just like the Patriots with spygate. He has no choice but to punish them worse than the Patriots were or else he is essentially saying videotaping coaches signals is more harmful to the game and players than posting bounties on players. They won't have a 1st round pick next year either.

[Dogman2]

One would think, but since Goodell's a circus clown it's no slam-dunk that he'll come down harder than Spygate. He's funny that way.

Not funny just wildly inconsistent.

Yeah, 2009 title tainted.

Edited by Dogman2, 02 March 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Salem's Lot]

Asterisk goes next to their 2009 title

(kidding)

Edit: I'm more curious to see how the media reacts to this than Goodell. This is a far more reprehensible act than SpyGate, IMO. We'll see if the media acts accordingly.

All the Syracuse grads at ESPN that root for the Jets on Sunday don't have a hard on for the Saints. I doubt this gets much play nationally for that reason.

[Pandemonium67]

Saints targeted QBs such as Brett Favre

They'll argue extenuating circumstances.

[Gambler7]

Michael Lombardi ‏ @michaelombardi
This Saints Bounty investigation is ugly to read and going to get uglier once the Commissioner rules. This is really bad.

[tims4wins]

Still not on ESPN's front page, although it is the top headline on their NFL page

[tims4wins]

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for 'performance,' but also for injuring opposing players," Goodell said. "The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity."
The NFL has a longstanding rule prohibiting "non-contract bonuses," and they violate both the league constitution and bylaws and the Collective Bargaining Agreement with the players' union.
Clubs are advised every year of this rule in a memo from the commissioner. Citing Sections 9.1©(8), and 9.3(F) and (G) of the Constitution and By-Laws, the memo for the 2011 season stated:
"No bonus or award may directly or indirectly be offered, promised, announced, or paid to a player for his or his team's performance against a particular team or opposing player or a particular group thereof. No bonuses or awards may be offered or paid for on field misconduct (for example, personal fouls to or injuries inflicted on opposing players)."
The league investigation included the review of approximately 18,000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages, numerous interviews and the use of outside forensic experts to verify the authenticity of key documents.
"Our investigation began in early 2010 when allegations were first made that Saints players had targeted opposing players, including Kurt Warner of the Arizona Cardinals and Brett Favre of the Minnesota Vikings," Goodell said. "Our security department interviewed numerous players and other individuals. At the time, those interviewed denied that any such program existed and the player that made the allegation retracted his earlier assertions. As a result, the allegations could not be proven.
"We recently received significant and credible new information and the investigation was reopened during the latter part of the 2011 season," he said.

http://espn.go.com/n...rogram-nfl-says

Edited by tims4wins, 02 March 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Gambler7]

Bert Breer is such a moron

Albert Breer ‏ @AlbertBreer
I'm hearing comparisons to Spygate here. I wouldn't compare them. Both really bad. But for very different reasons.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Breer should be ignored and taken off anyone's twitter feeds. He's an entitled dipshit and a moron's moron who simply "confirms" what others tweet. A complete waste of oxygen.

[SoxFanInPdx]

Can't remember who on the Saints hit Warner on the play where he threw that pick in the playoffs, but it's one of the hardest hits I've seen.

[dcdrew10]

One would think, but since Goodell's a circus clown it's no slam-dunk that he'll come down harder than Spygate. He's funny that way.

I keep going back and forth on how Goddell is going to rule on this. On one hand it's not the middle of the season and people probably aren't going to consider this a horrendous act of cheating that taints, blah, blah, blah, like Spygate, it will overshadow the first week of free agency and part of draft season and people will easily forget about it in a couple of days. On the other hand Goddell is a sanctimonious prick and would be likely to make an example of the Saints as he is wont to do with people who violate the sanctity of the NFL, blah, blah, blah.

[Scoops Bolling]

As someone who lives in New Orleans, I can tell you that I never heard a whisper about this investigation or the bounties; that said, the fact the Saints were doing this is not really that surprising...it fits Gregg Williams pretty well. I wonder if he got word that the NFL was closing in, and jumped ship because of it?

[NortheasternPJ]

I'm hearing comparisons to Spygate here. I wouldn't compare them. Both really bad. But for very different reasons.

I agree. one is videotaping stuff that is helpful for a team to "cheat", the other is risking players careers. I'd say the latter is way worse.

[Shelterdog]

I keep going back and forth on how Goddell is going to rule on this. On one hand it's not the middle of the season and people probably aren't going to consider this a horrendous act of cheating that taints, blah, blah, blah, like Spygate, it will overshadow the first week of free agency and part of draft season and people will easily forget about it in a couple of days. On the other hand Goddell is a sanctimonious prick and would be likely to make an example of the Saints as he is wont to do with people who violate the sanctity of the NFL, blah, blah, blah.

I think he learned his lesson with Spygate: the harder you punish it the worse it looks so he's stopped being so much of a hardass on player discipline, etc. since Spygate.

Even though this is much, much worse than Spygate the penalty ends up being much lighter.

[Jeff Van GULLY]

As someone who lives in New Orleans, I can tell you that I never heard a whisper about this investigation or the bounties; that said, the fact the Saints were doing this is not really that surprising...it fits Gregg Williams pretty well. I wonder if he got word that the NFL was closing in, and jumped ship because of it?

Are you really that surprised that you didn't hear about this? The Times-Pic sports staff sucks. They rarely break news, instead relying on national reporters to break news in their own back yard.

[dcdrew10]

I had a half-assed thought that BB should try to trade for the Saint's 2013 first round pick in the next couple of days, see if he can get it at a discount.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I had a half-assed thought that BB should try to trade for the Saint's 2013 first round pick in the next couple of days, see if he can get it at a discount.

That's risky; knowing Goodell that's the pick he'd take away once the Pats traded for it.

[Toe Nash]

I certainly see how this is wrong and should be punished.

But I have a hard time separating their actions from what pretty much every other team does. It's widely considered good football to hit the QB and the other team's skill players hard and intimidate them. If they get hurt, well, that's smash-mouth football assuming you don't go too high or too low. I searched out some highlights of the Vikings - Saints NFC Championship and I didn't see any late or illegal hits on Favre by the rules (one was maybe low, but it was exacerbated because Favre already had a foot injury, right?)

Seems like the Saints just made explicit monetary rewards for what their and any other team's coaches already wanted implicitly. Which certainly violates rules (undoubtedly the non-contract bonus one) but I'm not sure it really violates the spirit of the game.

I could be off-base and would be interested in reading other arguments.

[Shelterdog]

Also to be fair, like Spygate, I'd be willing to bet that the Saints are one of many teams that does something like this and they're just going to be unfairly singled out for it.

[natpastime162]

I can't see how the NFL doesn't penalize the Saint's harshly. Former players are suing the NFL. Referees are being asked to monitor for signs of concussions. Players are being fined and suspended every week.

[Salva135]

This is worse than SpyGate from a moral standpoint, but not from a football "integrity" standpoint. No one's going to judge the Saints as harshly as the Pats for this. Some fans will probably secretly applaud it.

Edited by Salva135, 02 March 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[mpx42]

Peter King ‏ @SI_PeterKing
In my opinion, the penalties on this will be worse, and maybe significantly worse, than Spygate.

[tims4wins]

Has an NFL coach ever been suspended by the league? I think the Jets suspended Alosi two years ago. I could see the NFL suspending Payton for the first game of the year, fining him over $500K (Belichick's fine), and taking away at least their first rounder in 2013.

Edited by tims4wins, 02 March 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[Jeff Van GULLY]

NFL Statement:

4. Saints owner Tom Benson gave immediate and full cooperation to the investigators. The evidence conclusively established that Mr. Benson was not aware of the bounty program. When informed earlier this year of the new information, Mr. Benson advised league staff that he had directed his general manager, Mickey Loomis, to ensure that any bounty program be discontinued immediately. The evidence showed that Mr. Loomis did not carry out Mr. Benson's directions. Similarly, when the initial allegations were discussed with Mr. Loomis in 2010, he denied any knowledge of a bounty program and pledged that he would ensure that no such program was in place. There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices.

The Saints are totally fucked.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I certainly see how this is wrong and should be punished.

But I have a hard time separating their actions from what pretty much every other team does. It's widely considered good football to hit the QB and the other team's skill players hard and intimidate them. If they get hurt, well, that's smash-mouth football assuming you don't go too high or too low. I searched out some highlights of the Vikings - Saints NFC Championship and I didn't see any late or illegal hits on Favre by the rules (one was maybe low, but it was exacerbated because Favre already had a foot injury, right?)

Seems like the Saints just made explicit monetary rewards for what their and any other team's coaches already wanted implicitly. Which certainly violates rules (undoubtedly the non-contract bonus one) but I'm not sure it really violates the spirit of the game.

I could be off-base and would be interested in reading other arguments.

The main issue seems to be monetarily rewarding deliberate attempts to injure other players. There's definitely a fine line between playing the game hard and trying to injure, and Lord knows James Harrison straddles it all the time, but to set up a system in which players receive money when an opponent is carted off the field is pretty much beyond the pale.

[Shelterdog]

It's interesting that Schefter and King are both saying punishment will exceed Spygate--they're both mouthpieces for the NFL so I assume they're getting that from somebody.

[Toe Nash]

The main issue seems to be monetarily rewarding deliberate attempts to injure other players. There's definitely a fine line between playing the game hard and trying to injure, and Lord knows James Harrison straddles it all the time, but to set up a system in which players receive money when an opponent is carted off the field is pretty much beyond the pale.

I understand that. They should be punished for that. But do you feel any personal anger towards them for that? I think it's probably a dumb and unnecessary move, but if some money and locker room prestige motivates the players to work harder, as long as they're not breaking the on-field rules to hurt the other team I don't have a big problem with it.

Harrison I do have a problem with because he constantly hits guys late and in the head which is very dangerous as we know, not just to a guy's ability to play but his ability to think. If the Saints gave out money for knocking guys out with concussions, or said "bend the guy's knee if you can get away with it" then yeah that's unsportsmanlike and dirty. But every defensive coach and player goes to bed saying "hit the QB hard" and most of them understand that that's how you injure a guy whether you knock the wind out of him, break his ribs, or whatever. This just takes it one step further, and maybe that's the breaking point but it seems somewhat arbitrary to be outraged by it (not that I'm seeing many people who are).

I guess the difference is the semantics between giving rewards for "big hits on the QB" and "cart-offs" and maybe that's enough. It just seems so razor-thin to me.

[SoxScout]

Apparently, they piled money on a table before a game and said that is goes to whoever knocks Favre out.

[Dehere]

Well, I just wrote a rather long post on this and then deleted it based on the statement linked to by JVG. That is a very, very troubling statement. Loomis is fucked; he's as good as fired. Payton I think will survive but he is certainly tarnished.

Fucking Gregg Williams. I really soured on him over the last year and a half. The Saints were atrocious fundamental tacklers for the last two seasons and now you wonder if it's because they were preoccupied with headhunting rather than just wrapping a guy up. Goodell can ban him for life as far as I'm concerned.

[mpx42]

Can the Saints have the franchise tag taken away from them? That would be arguably more damaging then anything else I can think of.

[tims4wins]

Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter
A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

A "safe" prediction? wow

[Dehere]

Yeah and how about the use of the word "far" in "far worse"? Double wow.

[RedOctober3829]

Anybody that tries to defend what the Saints did is out of their minds. Trying to injure someone is absolutely awful.

[Shelterdog]

Yeah and how about the use of the word "far" in "far worse"? Double wow.

Looks like hyperbole too me. The pats got a $500,000 fine and lost a first round pick from that year; is Goodell going to take away much more than that? (Their first round pick is worth roughly their 2012 second and their 2013 first, so that would be the starting point to tie the Pats' punishment.)

[Dice K]

What ever happened with the Vicodin scandal a few years ago? I was following that story pretty closely and then it seemed to just go away. Payton was right at the center of that scandal, too. A quick Google search shows a bunch of stuff from 2010 but nothing more recently. It's hard to say which scandal is "worse," but the bounty hunting is bad for the NFL and its current campaign of player protection.

Edit: too stupid to spell Payton correctly.

Edited by Dice K, 02 March 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[NortheasternPJ]

Looks like hyperbole too me. The pats got a $500,000 fine and lost a first round pick from that year; is Goodell going to take away much more than that? (Their first round pick is worth roughly their 2012 second and their 2013 first, so that would be the starting point to tie the Pats' punishment.)

Belichick got $500,000, the Pats got another $250,000 on top of that. I'm wondering if 2 first rounds is out of the question. Goodell is going to make an example out of them.

[Hendu's Gait]

Saints are my 2nd favorite team and I'm disgusted with this. Especially if SP knew about it and didn't try to stop it.

[Soxy Brown]

Regardless of what the punishment ends up being, I think what will make it worse overall than Spygate is that this wasn't just coaches involved, but players as well. From ESPN:

Goodell has advised the Saints that he will hold proceedings to determine potential discipline against the team and the individuals involved, and confer with the players' union regarding the appropriate punishment. That discipline could include fines, suspensions and the forfeiture of draft choices.

Notice how it says "discipline against the team and the individuals involved," and that Goodell will "confer with the players' union regarding the appropriate punishment." That could be how the discipline is "far worse." Could be Spygate level fines, lose a first round pick, and suspend all the players/coaches involved. Not quite sure how it would work if they did that. Who would play defense for them in week one if they're all suspended?

Whether it's fines or suspensions, those 22-27 players that were involved aren't going to walk away from this unscathed.

[mpx42]

I just want to know if the Saints had a bounty out on Marshawn Lynch in the 2010 playoffs.

[TheoShmeo]

It's interesting that Schefter and King are both saying punishment will exceed Spygate--they're both mouthpieces for the NFL so I assume they're getting that from somebody.

And given the soap box Peter King got and stayed on regarding SpyGate, I think it's particularly interesting that he's saying that the punishment for BountyGate will be greater.

Regardless of what the NFL does, the reaction of the national media wont approach the level of SpyGate. The Saints have thus far won only one Super Bowl, Payton is more cooperative with the media than Belichick and, consistent with Toe Nash's post, the media appreciates that we all like big hits. And we wont get to hear Tony Dungy speak in hushed tones about this being a "dark day" for the NFL.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 02 March 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[Alternate34]

This is crazy. Some off beat comments because the obvious has been commented upon, so they aren't designed to be taken too seriously.

(1) How terrible must you be at motivating your defense to play hard if the only thing you can do is pay them to injure players? To answer Toe Nash's question about hate, i have no real hate for players involved. Coaches doing this deserve derision and scorn.

(2) I am interested in what kind of money we are talking about here. What does it take to motivate players to do this?

(3) Isn't this basically a dual violation of both bounty rules and salary cap rules? Obviously the latter is not really a concern, but because this money is not in any player's contract, it seems that the punishment should consider that as well. The late 90s Broncos got busted on cap violations if I remember correctly.

Back to more serious commentary. This is atrocious. While I understand the argument that there is little bright line between this and Harrison-esque play, that management participated in it makes it odious. Coaches don't have to worry about the physical consequences of this type of play and any player that spoke out against it would be sternly reminded to get back in line. It basically turns all of the ethically good parts of being a team first guy into bad.

Edited by Alternate34, 02 March 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Toe Nash]

Anybody that tries to defend what the Saints did is out of their minds. Trying to injure someone is absolutely awful.

How do you feel about Rodney Harrison?

Edit: I don't think Rodney was a headhunter. But I think he played the game hard, and definitely took every opportunity to whack offensive players as hard as he could -- usually legally. He probably injured a few guys in the course of doing this, whether they missed time or not. And he got paid very handsomely for his skills at doing so and is largely celebrated for it.

There's every incentive for players to play like the Saints do / did. Should we be upset that the players and coaches provided one more*?


*Again, beyond the violation of the non-contract bonus / competition aspect which can surely lead to other competitive integrity problems.

Edited by Toe Nash, 02 March 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[PBDWake]

It could be far worse because of on the field suspensions and fines, and the amount of people it hits. If it's massive fines to Payton (or Williams, I guess), the Saints, draft pick forfeiture, and THEN, subsequently, suspensions for coaches and fines/suspensions for players involved? I would qualify that as a far worse punishment than Spygate, given the range, although the organizational penalty might be nearly equivalent.

Still, this isn't gonna be pretty. After spending so long trying to get the image under control, this is the last thing they needed. And as silly as we think the reward system can be, given the relative amounts they earn, sometimes, in a locker room, bragging rights can be more important. And besides, bypassing salary regulations is not something they're going to smile at. They take it a lot more seriously than we do