100 replies to this topic

[geoduck no quahog]

This is going to be an interminable Spring. Bad enough that the bad taste of last season lingers over everything...bad enough that the team on paper has fallen in the standings...bad enough there's an owner with a big mouth and a handicapped GM...now we've got the press blowing the whole thing up with fake outrage over incidental bullshit and the general public feasting on it.

None of this will end until real baseball starts being played and (hopefully) real games start being won on the field and everyone can forget about the soap opera replays.

And that's not going to even have a chance of happening for another 6-8 weeks.

It's not the stupid freakin' beer thing, it's a group of professionals being consistently demeaned by ignorant people outside their club. You think this crap is happening on the Braves? No wonder athletes only give a shit about what other athletes think. If I were on this team I'd be screaming "Go fuck yourselves!" at the top of my lungs.

Let's play ball.

Edited by geoduck no quahog, 26 February 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[Rasputin]

This is driving me absolutely batshit crazy. I need the season to start now and it doesn't really start for another month. It's brutal.

How the hell did I survive the days when the Sox missed the postseason routinely? Holy crap.

[lexrageorge]

Well, yes, this is frustrating. But this team blew a huge lead last September, and part of that was due to poor and uninspired play. Not all of it was luck or injuries. Both Tito and Theo complained about the clubhouse issues and the team's lackluster play before the beer and chicken story broke. So, like it or not, the story ain't going away just yet.

But, we have a new season ahead of us. Another couple of weeks and we'll start hearing more stories about the battles for the final bench and bullpen spots. That will help....

[shepard50]

This issue isn't beer or video games. It's that being forced to attend and sit through a season's worth of baseball games that they have no chance of playing in is tremendously boring. If these guys were smarter people we'd just be talking about how disrespectful and distracting it is for the starting pitchers to be doing crosswords or reading Dostoevsky in the dugout on their rest days.

If they were smarter they would be watching the @%&$^ game.

There job is not just pitching. Their job is also to both support their colleagues who are playing as well as to pay attention and learn anything they can about the opposing team (and their own team) that might give them an edge.

I'd have much the same issue if they were drinking Grand Marnier and playing GO whilst the team played.

[Plympton91]

But they didn't win or lose BECAUSE they were being unprofessional. As individuals Lackey, Lester, and Beckett choosing to drink beer on their off-days during a game did not effect the on-field performance one smidgen. The fact that they were skipping workouts and acting like dicks to everyone effected their on-field performance/clubhouse chemistry**. And that had nothing to do with beer and chicken.

It seems to that a definitive statement that the late season perofrmance of Beckett and Lester had nothing to do with beer and fried chicken is just as speculative as saying that the beer and fried chicken were important contributors to their performance.

To me, drinking in the clubhouse during games is symptomatic of someone with an alcohol problem. That doesn't mean one of them has/had a problem, but any of them could be functional alcoholics and we wouldn't really know. Knowing that information raises the odds from whatever you though they were without the information to something more than that. In addition, eating fried chicken as a mid-game snack is symptomatic of someone who is taking their conditioning..., eh..., let's call it..., less than seriously.

So, to me, if you concede, as you did, that part of the problem was lack of conditioning, then the beer in the clubhouse and the fried chicken as a mid-game snack are at the very least a clear demonstation of that lack of commitment to conditioning. As you say, that doesn't mean it is causal, but if they're tossing back cold ones all evening, then I'm betting they're not getting into the park quite as early the next day as the ones who aren't.

For all the talk of the lack of depth in the rotation, the season came down to two Beckett starts against Baltimore in which he ran out of gas in the 6th inning.

Edited by Plympton91, 26 February 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

I remember reading that when Manny first arrived in Boston and was DHing most of the time, he would study in-game videotape in between his at bats. Is it too much to ask that our players behave a little more like Manny Ramirez?

[Comfortably Lomb]

There job is not just pitching. Their job is also to both support their colleagues who are playing as well as to pay attention and learn anything they can about the opposing team (and their own team) that might give them an edge.

So which major league team is going to get rid of or bench an otherwise effective starting pitcher due to failure to support colleagues or to pay attention during games?

[shepard50]

So which major league team is going to get rid of or bench an otherwise effective starting pitcher due to failure to support colleagues or to pay attention during games?

None of them. But the Red Sox no longer tolerating the major (cited) activities beyond the watching of the game is a step in the right direction. You can't on one side ask a team to support each other and for a staff to study the game, and simultaneously offer distraction in the way of games and alcohol.

[Laser Show]

Francona says it's a PR move.

"I think it's a PR move," Francona, now an ESPN analyst, said on ESPN Radio's "Mike and Mike in the Morning" show. "I think if a guy wants a beer, he can probably get one. You know, it's kind of the old rule ... If your coach in football says no hard liquor on the plane -- I mean, you serve beer and wine -- somebody's going to sneak liquor on the plane.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Francona's right.

It's much more of an issue that certain players separated themselves from the rest of the team during games and half-assed it down the stretch. The specifics of what they did in that time don't really matter if it's not baseball-related. Drinking beer, playing video games, managing a record label, talking with friends on the phone...all selfish behavior. It doesn't matter what the specifics were.

The ownership's ban on beer is a public sign that OMG THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The harder work is getting the shitheads that formed their own little clique and didn't support their teammates to get their heads out of their asses and become real teammates again. Banning beer ain't gonna do that. Getting their dumb asses on the bench while the games are going on to support their teammates and to pay attention to the game might do it, however.

[TheoShmeo]

Francona may or may not be right. I think, but don't know, that a majority of clubs ban beer in the club house. I believe that Bobby banned beer in NY and Texas. I don't know, I don't see it as that big of a deal and I think it's probably a good message overall.

That said, there's something unseemly to me about Terry immediately getting on Mike and Mike and opining negatively on Bobby's moves. Yeah, free country and all that, and Terry is now part of the media, but it doesn't sit well to have Terry as this Boston gadfly out there. Yes, things could have been handled much better on the way out, but the fact of the matter is that Terry's benign neglect is part of the reason the Sox are in this predicament. It just seems odd that he gets to critique the reaction and better, that he he isn't showing a little more restraint.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Francona may or may not be right. I think, but don't know, that a majority of clubs ban beer in the club house. I believe that Bobby banned beer in NY and Texas. I don't know, I don't see it as that big of a deal and I think it's probably a good message overall.

That said, there's something unseemly to me about Terry immediately getting on Mike and Mike and opining negatively on Bobby's moves. Yeah, free country and all that, and Terry is now part of the media, but it doesn't sit well to have Terry as this Boston gadfly out there. Yes, things could have been handled much better on the way out, but the fact of the matter is that Terry's benign neglect is part of the reason the Sox are in this predicament. It just seems odd that he gets to critique the reaction and better, that he he isn't showing a little more restraint.

Why should he? The Red Sox ownership deliberately trashed his reputation as he was on his way out the door, and suddenly this "pill-popping" manager couldn't get another job. Don't you think he would have liked to have the Cardinals job, for example?

Frankly I think Tito's been rather restrained. Unseemly? You've got to be kidding me. He should be sending flaming bags of dog poop to the ownership on a daily basis for what they did to him in that Globe article. It was shameful. They should have built a fucking statue of the guy outside the park and instead they scrambled to cover their own asses.

[BroodsSexton]

That said, there's something unseemly to me about Terry immediately getting on Mike and Mike and opining negatively on Bobby's moves.

On the one hand, I agree, as when the past-President refuses to comment on the conduct of the new President out of deference to the office.

On the other hand, this isn't the Presidency we're talking about and it's kind of awesome that Tito is sticking to his guns. It's also consistent with how he approached issues when he was the manager. Not a lot of indulgence for gimmicks.

Edited by BroodsSexton, 27 February 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[trekfan55]

Francona's right.

It's much more of an issue that certain players separated themselves from the rest of the team during games and half-assed it down the stretch. The specifics of what they did in that time don't really matter if it's not baseball-related. Drinking beer, playing video games, managing a record label, talking with friends on the phone...all selfish behavior. It doesn't matter what the specifics were.

The ownership's ban on beer is a public sign that OMG THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The harder work is getting the shitheads that formed their own little clique and didn't support their teammates to get their heads out of their asses and become real teammates again. Banning beer ain't gonna do that. Getting their dumb asses on the bench while the games are going on to support their teammates and to pay attention to the game might do it, however.

I agree that it wasn't beer that caused the Sox to collapse the way they did. But the bolded part, unfortunately, does fall on Tito, And FTR I love the guy.

Why should he? The Red Sox ownership deliberately trashed his reputation as he was on his way out the door, and suddenly this "pill-popping" manager couldn't get another job. Don't you think he would have liked to have the Cardinals job, for example?

Frankly I think Tito's been rather restrained. Unseemly? You've got to be kidding me. He should be sending flaming bags of dog poop to the ownership on a daily basis for what they did to him in that Globe article. It was shameful. They should have built a fucking statue of the guy outside the park and instead they scrambled to cover their own asses.

Are we sure he cannot get another job? He got a very good broadcasting job right away and I'm pretty sure he will be on the shortlist for future managerial openings.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

I don't mind the banning of alcohol in the clubhouse....

That being said it's gonna look awfully stupid this year when they win the World Series and there dumping O'doul's and Canada Dry ginger Ale all over each other..

The real question is: did they get the medical marijuana out of the trainer's office?

[TheoShmeo]

Why should he? The Red Sox ownership deliberately trashed his reputation as he was on his way out the door, and suddenly this "pill-popping" manager couldn't get another job. You think he would have like to have the Cardinals job, for example?

Frankly I think Tito's been rather restrained. Unseemly? You've got to be kidding me. He should be sending flaming bags of dog poop to the ownership on a daily basis for what they did to him in that Globe article. It was shameful. They should have built a fucking statue of the guy outside the park and instead they scrambled to cover their own asses.

Yeah, agree to disagree with most, if not all, of this.

Regardless of what the FO did, Terry bears some responsibility for what happened last year. The irony, to me at least, is that SmearGate has served to insulate Tito from all blame for what happened in September.

And in my view, he deserves some of it. The players, in addition to sucking on the field, did what they did off the field on his watch. For him to turn around and comment on how Bobby is reacting to that mess seems odd to me.

Tito of course has the right to comment but I'd have a similar reaction if Theo commented on the Sox free agent signings in the wake of some of the free agent dumping that Theo left us with.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Are we sure he cannot get another job? He got a very good broadcasting job right away and I'm pretty sure he will be on the shortlist for future managerial openings.

I am pretty sure he inquired into the Cardinals job and was rebuffed.

[OnWisc]

Francona may or may not be right. I think, but don't know, that a majority of clubs ban beer in the club house. I believe that Bobby banned beer in NY and Texas. I don't know, I don't see it as that big of a deal and I think it's probably a good message overall.

That said, there's something unseemly to me about Terry immediately getting on Mike and Mike and opining negatively on Bobby's moves. Yeah, free country and all that, and Terry is now part of the media, but it doesn't sit well to have Terry as this Boston gadfly out there. Yes, things could have been handled much better on the way out, but the fact of the matter is that Terry's benign neglect is part of the reason the Sox are in this predicament. It just seems odd that he gets to critique the reaction and better, that he he isn't showing a little more restraint.

I thought the same, but apparently he didn't ban it in Texas (which is essentially half of his major league tenure)

http://sports.yahoo....housealcoholban

Regardless, if Bobby banned booze in NY, and in Japan, and is now just continuing his policy, then fundamentally, it can't really be termed a PR move. Even if in the eyes of the Sox front office, it may double as one.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yeah, agree to disagree with most, if not all, of this.

Regardless of what the FO did, Terry bears some responsibility for what happened last year. The irony, to me at least, is that SmearGate has served to insulate Tito from all blame for what happened in September.

And in my view, he deserves some of it. The players, in addition to sucking on the field, did what they did off the field on his watch. For him to turn around and comment on how Bobby is reacting to that mess seems odd to me.

Tito of course has the right to comment but I'd have a similar reaction if Theo commented on the Sox free agent signings in the wake of some of the free agent dumping that Theo left us with.

He certainly does not deserve the full on assault he got in the Globe in the wake of the season. Telling the whole world that his marriage was in shambles and that he was a drug addict was beyond the fucking pale. I don't care if he lost control of the team in April and they had gone 62-100, that was a despicable way to treat the man who sheparded this organization to heights of success not seen since the '10s. The 1910's.

Ownership treated Grady Little better after 2003, for crissakes.

I think Tito's earned the right to call things exactly how he sees them. I hope he opens up with both barrels. And I think he's spot on with this: this is more PR bullshit done to make ownership/Bobby V look tough.

[ShaneTrot]

Why should he? The Red Sox ownership deliberately trashed his reputation as he was on his way out the door, and suddenly this "pill-popping" manager couldn't get another job. Don't you think he would have liked to have the Cardinals job, for example?

Frankly I think Tito's been rather restrained. Unseemly? You've got to be kidding me. He should be sending flaming bags of dog poop to the ownership on a daily basis for what they did to him in that Globe article. It was shameful. They should have built a fucking statue of the guy outside the park and instead they scrambled to cover their own asses.

You are going too far. I love Tito but he blew it last year. When a failure is as epic as last year, management, ownership and the players have to own it. You are forgetting how awful last September was. If they were trying to be bad they could have not been much worse. Tito and Theo had to pay. It would happen in any other business after such a monumental failure.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You are going too far. I love Tito but he blew it last year. When a failure is as epic as last year, management, ownership and the players have to own it. You are forgetting how awful last September was. If they were trying to be bad they could have not been much worse. Tito and Theo had to pay. It would happen in any other business after such a monumental failure.

Yeah, let me know the next time the CEO of GM has his pill usage habits revealed on the front page of the fucking newspaper.

Please. Was his time here up? Most likely? Did the organization go too far after the season? You bet your sweet bibby they did.

[Laser Show]

I am pretty sure he inquired into the Cardinals job and was rebuffed.

They interviewed him.

I don't think Tito will have a hard time finding another job as manager. Regardless of what happened in September, the previous eight years I think largely outweigh that.

Edited by Laser Show, 27 February 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

They interviewed him.

I don't think Tito will have a hard time finding another job as manager.

He didn't get that job did he? You don't think he would have been a fine fit for a recent 2 time WS Champ?

I think they've really hurt his chances.

[TheoShmeo]

He certainly does not deserve the full on assault he got in the Globe in the wake of the season. Telling the whole world that his marriage was in shambles and that he was a drug addict was beyond the fucking pale. I don't care if he lost control of the team in April and they had gone 62-100, that was a despicable way to treat the man who sheparded this organization to heights of success not seen since the '10s. The 1910's.

I think Tito's earned the right to call things exactly how he sees them. And I think he's spot on with this: this is more PR bullshit done to make ownership/Bobby V look tough.

So it was PR bullshit when Bobby did this in Japan? In NY? Every other team that does is this is engaging in PR bullshit?

Tito of course has the right to say what he thinks. Having the right and exercising it are two different things.

Terry was indeed interviewed by the Cards and we know that Theo, who had more insight into Terry's performance in Boston than any of us, thought so much of Tito's readiness to manage in 2012 that he passed without even talking to him.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So it was PR bullshit when Bobby did this in Japan? In NY? Every other team that does is this is engaging in PR bullshit?

No. Just this one. Don't be naive. This is the same club that hired Bobby because he was more of a name (I'm sorry, "stronger personality") than the man the GM wanted for baseball reasons. Of course this is all about PR.

If you think it's OK for a man's personal reputation to be publicly trashed for the unforgivable sin of playing shitty in September, that's where we'll part ways.

[jsinger121]

He didn't get that job did he? You don't think he would have been a fine fit for a recent 2 time WS Champ?

I think they've really hurt his chances.

Maybe St. Louis wanted to hire a manager on the cheap?

[TheoShmeo]

No. Just this one. Don't be naive.

Say what? To say it's all PR when the manager has shown from his last two stops that he doesn't favor this in the first place, and is taking into account some potential abuse in the form of drinking during games by members of the 2011 Sox who are still around, makes no sense.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 27 February 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Say what? To say it's all PR when the manager has shown from his last two stops that he doesn't favor this in the first place, and is taking into account some potential abuse in the form of drinking during games by members of the 2011 Sox who are still around, makes no sense.

It's a public fix for a public "problem" that may or may not have anything to do with anything last year. Again, the lack of cohesiveness and training was the issue last year, the beer is merely a distraction from the real problem. if the same players go into the clubhouse to slam back RC Cola and Fanta it's going to still be a problem.

I'm much more interested if Drill Sergeant Valentine get get these lazy fuckers into decent shape this spring instead of engaging in chickenshit rules for a salivating public that most likely have little to no effect at all. Beckett's wife already had the baby, so if he looks pregnant yet again this year that's the real problem.

[findguapo]

He didn't get that job did he? You don't think he would have been a fine fit for a recent 2 time WS Champ?

I think they've really hurt his chances.

Grady Little got a job after the Red Sox, I think Tito will have no problem.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

The sox should also Ban their players from having sex with their wifes..... Because Josh Beckett's wife was pregnant and that was a bigger distraction than even beer or chicken. http://espn.go.com/b...cs-in-interview

So I say why take the chance of pregnancy anymore? No sex with wives, especially on the last leg of road trips.

[Judge Mental13]

It seems to that a definitive statement that the late season perofrmance of Beckett and Lester had nothing to do with beer and fried chicken is just as speculative as saying that the beer and fried chicken were important contributors to their performance.

It is so far down on the list of problems and overall dysfunction that this team displayed that I hardly think it registers.

To me, drinking in the clubhouse during games is symptomatic of someone with an alcohol problem. That doesn't mean one of them has/had a problem, but any of them could be functional alcoholics and we wouldn't really know. Knowing that information raises the odds from whatever you though they were without the information to something more than that. In addition, eating fried chicken as a mid-game snack is symptomatic of someone who is taking their conditioning..., eh..., let's call it..., less than seriously.

Athletes eating fried chicken is a non-story if they aren't skipping workouts and putting on weight. If you think those guys are the only ones who ever drank beer and ate chicken on the team you're cuh-raaaaaaaaaazy.

So, to me, if you concede, as you did, that part of the problem was lack of conditioning, then the beer in the clubhouse and the fried chicken as a mid-game snack are at the very least a clear demonstation of that lack of commitment to conditioning. As you say, that doesn't mean it is causal, but if they're tossing back cold ones all evening, then I'm betting they're not getting into the park quite as early the next day as the ones who aren't.

The lack of commitment to conditioning was the clear demonstration to the lack of commitment to conditioning. Banning beer does not solve the problem of why Josh Beckett did not take conditioning seriously last season. If beer was not allowed in the clubhouse last year it's not like Beckett would have magically been good down the stretch, or been in better shape. This is major league baseball, some of the greatest heroes in history were fall-down drunks, as are some of the present-day all-stars. That's not the issue. The issue is what they do on the field. If drinking beers really affected one's ability to play baseball that significantly, the history of baseball would look a lot different.

For all the talk of the lack of depth in the rotation, the season came down to two Beckett starts against Baltimore in which he ran out of gas in the 6th inning.

Uh, the Red Sox won 7 games that month. They spiraled helplessly out of control for a 4 weeks. Had they won 8 games, rather than 7, they would have made the postseason. If they had even a shred of depth at SP they probably could've squeaked out that 8th game. Beckett was bad, but up until that last month he'd been having a pretty killer year. Once Buchholz went down this team's rotation just totally fell apart and the options in the minors and on the bench were truly horrible.

[HomeBrew1901]

He didn't get that job did he? You don't think he would have been a fine fit for a recent 2 time WS Champ?

I think they've really hurt his chances.

I know what you are saying SJH but there could be a lot of reasons that he didn't get the St. Louis or Cubs jobs that were out there.

Maybe he was burnt out after 8 years in Boston and needed a year or two to want to get back into managing, maybe St. Louis wanted to go on the cheap, who knows.

Francona is a lot better than Sveum too and Tito is supposedly good friends with Theo but he didn't get him that job either.

I don't blame Francona for anything that he says or does going forward, but I don't think the Globe story had THAT much to do with him not managing this year. I'm sure it didn't help, but it was pretty obvious that it was a hatchet job and I think most GMs will see through it.

[Remagellan]

He didn't get that job did he? You don't think he would have been a fine fit for a recent 2 time WS Champ?

I think they've really hurt his chances.

I think it's debatable what effect it had on Tito's chances for the Cardinals job. When a guy within the organization who was as off of everyone's radar as Mike Matheny was at the time of his hiring, I think it's a sign that the Cards had a succession plan in place and just interviewed other capable candidates to ensure they weren't making a mistake. Prior to hiring Matheny, Tito was the only candidate the Cardinals interviewed who had major league managerial experience so clearly that was not a priority for them.

[dbn]

Rumor is that SOSH's wade boggs chicken dinner has been banned from the clubhouse as well.


Edit to add something other than a one-liner:

My workplace (a reserarch-oriented academic department) has beer at many functions and most Friday afternoons, and is doing fine -- we've recently had a member named to the National Academy of Science and another win a Crafoord prize. Sure, it's a bit apples-to-oranges to compare academia to "normal" workplaces, but no more so than to compare a MLB clubhouse to a "normal" workplace.

On another note, this whole thread reminds me of how weird the US's relationship to alcohol is.

Edited by dbn, 27 February 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[bakahump]

Just curious if you think this is unfair....

What where your thoughts on the Josh Hamilton "Babysitter" thing?

Serious question. There where quite a few of us who felt it entirely justified and plausible that a grown man would have another grown man constantly around him helping him make the "right choice for his life"....a sponser on steroids if you will.

[lexrageorge]

Francona is free to say anything he wants; he owes absolutely nothing to the Red Sox organization, especially after the way he was treated after his exit. We are going to disagree with some of the things he says; so is Valentine.

Having said that, I think Bobby V's take is correct; Francona is paid to say things on TV; Valentine is paid to manage the team. 19 other teams have similar rules, and noone is claiming that the Yankees or A's banned alcohol for PR reasons. The lazy Peter Abraham will make this into a bigger story than it really is.

[tims4wins]

Tito acknowledges need to be more careful

I need to be more careful when speaking about the Red Sox. I didn't mean anything derogatory about the team or Bobby (Valentine) when I said that. It was just an issue that's been played out so publicly. I thought I was consistent in what I said all day yesterday but I need to be more careful.

[TheoShmeo]

From that same Globe link:

On a different topic, Francona, who managed Jason Varitek for eight years said, "I hope his decision to retire is something he really wants to do because he deserves to go out the way he wants to go out. He's earned that. I know what he meant to our team. He's one of the best players to ever put on a Red Sox uniform and I wish him the best in what ever he decided to do with the rest of his life."

What does that mean, Tito? Should the Sox keep Tek on the team so he can go out on his terms? Or is someone forcing him to retire now? Is the evil Sox ownership up to more tricks?

[rembrat]

Did Tito rape your kitten dude?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

From that same Globe link:

On a different topic, Francona, who managed Jason Varitek for eight years said, "I hope his decision to retire is something he really wants to do because he deserves to go out the way he wants to go out. He's earned that. I know what he meant to our team. He's one of the best players to ever put on a Red Sox uniform and I wish him the best in what ever he decided to do with the rest of his life."

What does that mean, Tito? Should the Sox keep Tek on the team so he can go out on his terms? Or is someone forcing him to retire now? Is the evil Sox ownership up to more tricks?

It means Tito is getting paid to be an talking head, not a strategist. Seriously, why shouldn't Tito publicly flatter a guy he respects the hell out of? Should we really be expecting Tito to be a media tough-guy like the ones who character-assassinated him on his own way out?

Jeez, just give it a rest.

[TheoShmeo]

It means Tito is getting paid to be an talking head, not a strategist. Seriously, why shouldn't Tito publicly flatter a guy he respects the hell out of? Should we really be expecting Tito to be a media tough-guy like the ones who character-assassinated him on his own way out?

Jeez, just give it a rest.

All praise Tek. He sure as hell deserves it. I don't think that makes Tito's comments make any sense but, yeah, perhaps I'm being hyper critical.

[tims4wins]

Of course Tito would say that, he is the same guy who gave Millar way too many at bats and Embree way too many appearances after they made it clear they had nothing left

[brs3]

Of course Tito would say that, he is the same guy who gave Millar way too many at bats and Embree way too many appearances after they made it clear they had nothing left

I'm just curious.. I understand Millar's last season in Boston wasn't his best, but at which point during that season was he giving Millar too many at bats?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He gave Millar so many ABs he replaced him with Olerud once Olerud was acquired.

[tims4wins]

I'm just curious.. I understand Millar's last season in Boston wasn't his best, but at which point during that season was he giving Millar too many at bats?

Millar played in 50 of the first 54 games with a .238 average, .327 OBP and .320 SLG... and everyone was hammering Tito on how much he was playing Millar.

Edit: sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a debate, it was a throwaway line that was meant to reflect the fact that Tito was always a players manager who had a ton of loyalty to the veterans

Edited by tims4wins, 28 February 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[OnWisc]

Of course Tito would say that, he is the same guy who gave Millar way too many at bats and Embree way too many appearances after they made it clear they had nothing left

I think this is part of it. Tito started Varitek at Catcher nine times in a high-stakes September, so unless he thinks he's lost all value over the past five months, he probably believe he still has something to contribute. And it's not like we did a complete overhaul of the C position since then. Lavarnway is getting closer, and Shoppach is here now, but it's not like all of a sudden there's a different dynamic at C and Varitek absolutely no longer fits. The situation at C is arguably pretty similar to how it was when Tito saw fit to play Tek regularly.

Aside from that, and despite the choice of phrasing, it's probably mostly well-wishes to a guy who has earned it. I also hope Tek really wants to retire, or at least understands that it's time.

[Fred not Lynn]

On a different topic, Francona, who managed Jason Varitek for eight years said, "I hope his decision to retire is something he really wants to do because he deserves to go out the way he wants to go out. He's earned that. I know what he meant to our team. He's one of the best players to ever put on a Red Sox uniform and I wish him the best in what ever he decided to do with the rest of his life."

If every aging athlete got to go out the way they wanted to go out, there would be a bunch of 60 year old guys on the field.

Something kind of cool and poetic in a melancholy way about professional baseball is that guys don't retire at the end of the season, they retire at the end of the off-season.

Edited by Fred not Lynn, 28 February 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[SumnerH]

Millar played in 50 of the first 54 games with a .238 average, .327 OBP and .320 SLG... and everyone was hammering Tito on how much he was playing Millar.

Edit: sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a debate, it was a throway line that was meant to reflect the fact that Tito was always a players manager who had a ton of loyalty to the veterans

I dunno, he always seemed pretty open to young talent to me. He benched Cora (by all accounts a veteran who Tito thought very highly of) and stuck with Pedroia even when Pedroia struggled mightily. He played rookie Ellsbury all through the postseason. He had no problem running Papelbon out at closer when Foulke when down to start 2005.

[trekfan55]

I dunno, he always seemed pretty open to young talent to me. He benched Cora (by all accounts a veteran who Tito thought very highly of) and stuck with Pedroia even when Pedroia struggled mightily. He played rookie Ellsbury all through the postseason. He had no problem running Papelbon out at closer when Foulke when down to start 2005.

Papelbon closed in 2006, he was still a starter in 2005. In 2005 Foulke kept going out there and was booed (seriously, why would anyone do that?) and they even used Schilling as closer that year.

I'll give you Pedroia, and Ellsbury basically displaced Coco Crisp.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Paps began as a starter, then moved to the setup role in 2005. Timlin closed towards the end of that year once Schilling went back into the rotation.