Interesting to hear Valentine recent comments re SS. He said that he did not see Punto as a starting SS. Sounds like any platoon arrangement is unlikely, and I say thank goodness to that. Rather V. seemed to describe it as Aviles' job subject to a challenge by Igelsias.
Iglesias looks like a good bet to OPS under 600 at a big league level. How many more defensive plays would he have to make to compensate for that even if Aviles only hits 250/320/380?
I would have thought it obvious that we should send Iglesias to Pawtucket so he could work on his hitting. This would give Aviles the FT job, with no worries, til June 1 anyway.
If they do this who fills out the bench? B4 Crawford comes back, Darnell, Shoppach and Punto are locks. When he does come back I would have thought Darnell was done and we would stick with 4 OFers. They would not stash Lavarnway in this 4th bench spot would they? Ideally I would think a 1b/3b who could spell Youk better than Punto makes the most sense. I guess that takes us to the likes of Emaus, Spears and Ciriaco...I find Emaus mildly interesting.
Yo! You're not logged in. Why am I seeing this ad?
Shortstop and the last bench spot
Started by
KillerBs
, Feb 22 2012 02:28 PM
50 replies to this topic
#2
-
-
- 758 posts
Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:37 PM
I would love to see Iglesias and Pedroia up the middle defensively. That being said, Aviles is an underrated defensive player and he has had success as a hitter before. If he can put together another .325/.354/.480 or .304/.335/.413 season as he's done in the past, it would be best for the team and Iglesias' development.
#3
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:10 PM
I think Aviles defensively is a big unknown. He had a great rookie year but has not played much SS since his TJ Surgery in 2009. Good hitting SS who play good defense don't usually sit on the bench for last place teams.
Obviously, if he can play anywhere near the level he played in 2008, Larry should send Theo a nice thank you card. If not, I think the Red Sox will be prepared to let Iglesias play SS in the 2nd half even if he won't be expected to hit much. A lot depends on how Aviles (field) and Iglesias (bat) play in the 1st half of course. Iglesias put on some good weight over the offseason, maybe that translates into more bat speed and power.
Obviously, if he can play anywhere near the level he played in 2008, Larry should send Theo a nice thank you card. If not, I think the Red Sox will be prepared to let Iglesias play SS in the 2nd half even if he won't be expected to hit much. A lot depends on how Aviles (field) and Iglesias (bat) play in the 1st half of course. Iglesias put on some good weight over the offseason, maybe that translates into more bat speed and power.
#4
-
-
- 841 posts
Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:39 AM
Interesting to hear Valentine recent comments re SS. He said that he did not see Punto as a starting SS. Sounds like any platoon arrangement is unlikely, and I say thank goodness to that. Rather V. seemed to describe it as Aviles' job subject to a challenge by Igelsias.
Iglesias looks like a good bet to OPS under 600 at a big league level. How many more defensive plays would he have to make to compensate for that even if Aviles only hits 250/320/380?
I would have thought it obvious that we should send Iglesias to Pawtucket so he could work on his hitting. This would give Aviles the FT job, with no worries, til June 1 anyway.
It's already bad enough that we made an $8.25 investment in a guy with Iglesias' skillset, rushing him into a big league role at this point would just be piling on with the stupidity.
If that does prove to be the case though, that bottom half of the lineup has to potential to be looking real sketchy imo, minus Scutaro and the very real possibility Papi does not replicate his 2011 level of production.
#5
-
-
- 3,222 posts
Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:35 AM
KB, you bring up a good point. We really don't have any depth on the roster when it comes to the corner infield positions. God forbid, if anything major happens to Adrian, who plays first? Papi with Lavarnway called up to DH? But, that could ruin his development as a C. Lars? I sincerely hope we don't have to see any scenario in which Adrian isn't playing first.
On the flip side if anything happens to Youks, not only would that be the end of his tenure here as a member of the Red Sox imo because, let's face it, another injury plagued year and he's gone, would that mean the beginning of the WMB era? I would have to think so, because they're not rolling out Punto to play third everyday, or short either with Aviles moving to third. If they do think it's too early for Middlebrooks then what? I agree that Emaus seems interesting , but not for anything longer than a 15 day stint.
I suppose the same thing could be said about second base as well. If Pedroia goes down we're pretty much screwed at that position. That's the only place I can see them shoving Punto to play everyday and that prospect gives me chills.
Aviles, by all accounts seems to have the SS position in hand as of right now. Although, if Iglesias can win the starting job out of ST, Aviles would shore up our IF depth. He could back-up Youks at third or allow Youks to move to first if an injury were to occur. I am one of the few that thinks Jose has an actual shot at making this team. If he does, that would really give us some good depth on the bench.
A Punto, Aviles, Shoppach, and one of Ross/Sweeney bench would be pretty decent.
On the flip side if anything happens to Youks, not only would that be the end of his tenure here as a member of the Red Sox imo because, let's face it, another injury plagued year and he's gone, would that mean the beginning of the WMB era? I would have to think so, because they're not rolling out Punto to play third everyday, or short either with Aviles moving to third. If they do think it's too early for Middlebrooks then what? I agree that Emaus seems interesting , but not for anything longer than a 15 day stint.
I suppose the same thing could be said about second base as well. If Pedroia goes down we're pretty much screwed at that position. That's the only place I can see them shoving Punto to play everyday and that prospect gives me chills.
Aviles, by all accounts seems to have the SS position in hand as of right now. Although, if Iglesias can win the starting job out of ST, Aviles would shore up our IF depth. He could back-up Youks at third or allow Youks to move to first if an injury were to occur. I am one of the few that thinks Jose has an actual shot at making this team. If he does, that would really give us some good depth on the bench.
A Punto, Aviles, Shoppach, and one of Ross/Sweeney bench would be pretty decent.
#6
-
-
- 249 posts
Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:58 AM
KB, you bring up a good point. We really don't have any depth on the roster when it comes to the corner infield positions. God forbid, if anything major happens to Adrian, who plays first? Papi with Lavarnway called up to DH? But, that could ruin his development as a C. Lars? I sincerely hope we don't have to see any scenario in which Adrian isn't playing first.
I think in that scenario, they would consider calling WMB up and moving Youk to first. Obviously any major injury to Adrian hurts the Sox chances so lets only go down that road if it occurs. I was expecting the Sox to sign a corner infielder type to round out the bench but I guess they are comfortable with Punto being the utility infielder.
#7
-
-
- 253 posts
Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:12 PM
If A-Gon were to miss an extended period:
Youkilis moves to 1B
Aviles and Punto would man SS and 3B, or 3B and SS
Middlebooks (3B), Iglesias (SS), and Brad Emaus (3B) are the current depth.
I think it's fair to say that the team would make a move for another SS/3B unless it was late enough in the season that Middlebrooks got a good look at Triple-A and/or one of of the depth tier came up and hit well enough to supplement their defense.
Youkilis moves to 1B
Aviles and Punto would man SS and 3B, or 3B and SS
Middlebooks (3B), Iglesias (SS), and Brad Emaus (3B) are the current depth.
I think it's fair to say that the team would make a move for another SS/3B unless it was late enough in the season that Middlebrooks got a good look at Triple-A and/or one of of the depth tier came up and hit well enough to supplement their defense.
Edited by untilthebombs, 25 February 2012 - 02:12 PM.
#8
-
-
- 588 posts
Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:45 PM
Youk backs up 1B. Punto/Aviles back up 3B; neither guy has played a ton there, but both are capable of combining for about 30 games there. If an injury happens to either corner infielder, then Middlebrooks gets the call up and starts at 3B. If both corner infielders end up hurt at the same time, Lars and Middlebrooks get the call and the team struggles.
As for the last roster spot, at this point it is DMac's spot. If Iglesias makes the team out of camp, Aviles rounds out the roster because he can be both the 5th OF and utility guy and he's a RHH.
As for the last roster spot, at this point it is DMac's spot. If Iglesias makes the team out of camp, Aviles rounds out the roster because he can be both the 5th OF and utility guy and he's a RHH.
Edited by jasail, 25 February 2012 - 08:47 PM.
#9
-
-
- 82 posts
Posted 26 February 2012 - 12:22 AM
Aviles, by all accounts seems to have the SS position in hand as of right now. Although, if Iglesias can win the starting job out of ST, Aviles would shore up our IF depth. He could back-up Youks at third or allow Youks to move to first if an injury were to occur. I am one of the few that thinks Jose has an actual shot at making this team. If he does, that would really give us some good depth on the bench.
A Punto, Aviles, Shoppach, and one of Ross/Sweeney bench would be pretty decent.
I like the way this sounds. There's nothing that makes me cringe about Aviles being our SS. He's hit .285/.310/.411 since his surgery, and if the small sample size of his time in Boston is any indication, it's not unlikely that he keeps that up. It's hard to expect any more from this situation.
You have to think Iglesias has at least some chance. I definitely agree that's a good scenario if he manages to make it.
#10
-
-
- 797 posts
Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:02 AM
Only way Iglesias makes the team out of camp is if he wins the starting position. And given how his bat looked over 350+ Pawtuckets ABs last season, I can only imagine what he'd have to do between now and the end of March to win the job. I think it's a safe bet he'll start the season back in Pawtucket where he can play every day.
If Adrian went down, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox take a shot with Lars or Mauro Gomez and keep Youkilis at third so WMB and Iglesias can stay in AAA. Especially if it happens earlier in the season.
If Adrian went down, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox take a shot with Lars or Mauro Gomez and keep Youkilis at third so WMB and Iglesias can stay in AAA. Especially if it happens earlier in the season.
#11
-
-
- 182 posts
Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:57 PM
Youk backs up 1B. Punto/Aviles back up 3B; neither guy has played a ton there, but both are capable of combining for about 30 games there. If an injury happens to either corner infielder, then Middlebrooks gets the call up and starts at 3B. If both corner infielders end up hurt at the same time, Lars and Middlebrooks get the call and the team struggles.
As for the last roster spot, at this point it is DMac's spot. If Iglesias makes the team out of camp, Aviles rounds out the roster because he can be both the 5th OF and utility guy and he's a RHH.
If I understand you right, you are saying that when Crawford is back, we should go with 5 OFers including Darnell. Punto would be the lone reserve infielder.
I think I disagree. I lean to prefer Emaus or Spears to Darnell for the 25th spot. I am inclined to think Youk needs a periodic break here and there and Emaus allows you to DH Youk against tough lefties every once in awhile effectively getting a day off for Youk and Ortiz the same day. He also gives you some options against lefty releivers on days when Youk sits against a righty starter in favor of Punto.
#12
-
-
- 3,222 posts
Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:11 PM
If I understand you right, you are saying that when Crawford is back, we should go with 5 OFers including Darnell. Punto would be the lone reserve infielder.
I think I disagree. I lean to prefer Emaus or Spears to Darnell for the 25th spot. I am inclined to think Youk needs a periodic break here and there and Emaus allows you to DH Youk against tough lefties every once in awhile effectively getting a day off for Youk and Ortiz the same day. He also gives you some options against lefty releivers on days when Youk sits against a righty starter in favor of Punto.
There's just no way that happens. I honestly can't even wrap my head around that scenario. Why would Bobby do this even once?
#13
-
-
- 841 posts
Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:50 PM
There's just no way that happens. I honestly can't even wrap my head around that scenario. Why would Bobby do this even once?
Given my shared belief that we should fully plan to give Youk some periodic breaks this season, I'm guessing that was more a matter of specifying the scenario that would be going down (that day) then any direct implication that Youk should potential sit in favor of Punto against RHP.
#14
-
-
- 182 posts
Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:06 PM
Given my shared belief that we should fully plan to give Youk some periodic breaks this season, I'm guessing that was more a matter of specifying the scenario that would be going down (that day) then any direct implication that Youk should potential sit in favor of Punto against RHP.
That's right. I am not talking about a platoon, that's for sure, but how do we get Youk the rest it seems he may need to get him through the season strong. Carrying another reserve 3b has the distinct advantage of limiting how frequently we see Punto manning the position.
On the other hand if Valentine had the guts to start Darnell instead of Crawford in a sizable chunk of the games in which we oppose a LHP, I could be persuaded that it might make sense to carry him as 5th OFer instead.
#15
-
-
- 3,222 posts
Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:23 AM
That's right. I am not talking about a platoon, that's for sure, but how do we get Youk the rest it seems he may need to get him through the season strong. Carrying another reserve 3b has the distinct advantage of limiting how frequently we see Punto manning the position.
On the other hand if Valentine had the guts to start Darnell instead of Crawford in a sizable chunk of the games in which we oppose a LHP, I could be persuaded that it might make sense to carry him as 5th OFer instead.
I suppose you're right. The only other choice would be Aviles to third and Punto playing short. At the moment there really isn't another option if/when Youks gets a day off, no matter the frequency... In my previous post I was focused on depth related to injury not so much rest.
#16
-
-
- 694 posts
Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:19 AM
If Adrian goes down and then the Youk to 1st, Punto to SS, Aviles to 3rd spiral happens, the only way we're going anywhere after September is if Ortiz, Youk and Ellsbury have monstrous years and Punto plays like he did for St. Louis.
Having "depth" at the corner infield positions is great, but how much better of a player do you think there are available there? As a BACKUP/BENCH player. Anyone will be a major downgrade and our bench options are fine comparable to the rest of the league.
If that sudden backup plan was performing terribly, and/or Youk was injured and/or playing subpar then it'd be time to toss the season away, look to make trade deadline deals (Beckett?) to bring in some great prospects and to test out some of the WMB's and Iglesias' we have in the system. The last thing I want to see is for Cherington to make a deal for an okay corner infielder as a band-aid and for us to still end up in a distant 3rd or 4th.
Having "depth" at the corner infield positions is great, but how much better of a player do you think there are available there? As a BACKUP/BENCH player. Anyone will be a major downgrade and our bench options are fine comparable to the rest of the league.
If that sudden backup plan was performing terribly, and/or Youk was injured and/or playing subpar then it'd be time to toss the season away, look to make trade deadline deals (Beckett?) to bring in some great prospects and to test out some of the WMB's and Iglesias' we have in the system. The last thing I want to see is for Cherington to make a deal for an okay corner infielder as a band-aid and for us to still end up in a distant 3rd or 4th.
#17
-
-
- 161 posts
Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:33 PM
It's really too early to have this conversation. There are too many variables out there; specifically, who comes through spring training playing well, who is nursing an injury. I think by March 20th, we'll have a pretty good idea who might be best to round out the team.
#18
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:32 PM
If A-Gon were to miss an extended period:
Youkilis moves to 1B
Aviles and Punto would man SS and 3B, or 3B and SS
Middlebooks (3B), Iglesias (SS), and Brad Emaus (3B) are the current depth.
I think it's fair to say that the team would make a move for another SS/3B unless it was late enough in the season that Middlebrooks got a good look at Triple-A and/or one of of the depth tier came up and hit well enough to supplement their defense.
Anyone talked to Youk about this?. I thought he was pretty adamant about not wanting to bounce around between the 2 positions.
#19
-
-
- 253 posts
Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:12 AM
Anyone talked to Youk about this?. I thought he was pretty adamant about not wanting to bounce around between the 2 positions.
Switching positions for an extended period of time =/= bouncing around.
He's shown to be the type of guy who does what is asked. If A-Gon were to be lost for a couple of weeks or worse, I'd be very surprised if he objected. As things currently stand, Youk to 1st would be the most logical decision for the team.
#20
-
-
- 519 posts
Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:42 AM
Doubt Lars Anderson, unless he has a firecracker hot ST, will be at PawSox this Spring, my sense is that Lars will be traded either for a pitcher who will start the 2012 Season with the PawSox, and will be a quick callup away.
Just a Thought Respecfully submitted,
rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick
Just a Thought Respecfully submitted,
rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick
#21
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:23 AM
One question I saw over on the main board thats interesting. What if Bobby V decides to go with Iglesias at SS, then who goes?
I think it would have to be D-Mac, at least when Crawford comes back from the DL. If you recall, the plan when we had Scutaro and before we got Ross seems to have been that Aviles could be the 5th OF'er as well as backup IF.
I can't see either Punto or Aviles losing out.
Mind you, I don't think Iglesias will be the opening day SS, not unless he shows his bat is no longer a popsicle, or Aviles looks awful at SS.
I think it would have to be D-Mac, at least when Crawford comes back from the DL. If you recall, the plan when we had Scutaro and before we got Ross seems to have been that Aviles could be the 5th OF'er as well as backup IF.
I can't see either Punto or Aviles losing out.
Mind you, I don't think Iglesias will be the opening day SS, not unless he shows his bat is no longer a popsicle, or Aviles looks awful at SS.
Edited by Sampo Gida, 10 March 2012 - 03:24 AM.
#22
-
-
- 3,222 posts
Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:45 AM
I think DMC could go either way when Crawford comes back. That would only leave us with Punto as backup for the entire IF. 5 OF'ers is a little much, IMO, but I've seen stranger things.
#23
-
-
- 841 posts
Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:27 PM
One question I saw over on the main board thats interesting. What if Bobby V decides to go with Iglesias at SS, then who goes?
I think it would have to be D-Mac, at least when Crawford comes back from the DL. If you recall, the plan when we had Scutaro and before we got Ross seems to have been that Aviles could be the 5th OF'er as well as backup IF.
I can't see either Punto or Aviles losing out.
Mind you, I don't think Iglesias will be the opening day SS, not unless he shows his bat is no longer a popsicle, or Aviles looks awful at SS.
It would be D-Mac, as i realistically can't see it playing out any other way. The 1 backup IF while carrying 12 pitchers just won't cut it.
As initially skeptical as i've been on Iglesias, i will say this. Given a strong enough showing with the bat this spring, i'm starting to lean a little more towards it being a debateable issue. As unless one is really bull'ish on Aviles, having Iglesias' defense in there from the start is certainly tempting.
#24
-
-
- 486 posts
Posted 10 March 2012 - 11:35 PM
I'm glad to see Iglesias playing so well this spring. However, I just can't imagine having him break camp as one of the 25 when that would likely mean the end of D-Mac, along with making Aviles the 4th outfielder. In that hypothetical situation an injury to an outfielder before Crawford returns would leave us pretty thin at that position.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I assume at some point that Youks will get hurt, and then either Middlebrooks gets a shot at third, or Aviles goes to third and Iglesias gets his chance. So far I like what I have seen out of Aviles, having two good shortstops is a wonderful quandry to be in. I think Ben knew what he was doing when he traded Scutaro and Lowrie away.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I assume at some point that Youks will get hurt, and then either Middlebrooks gets a shot at third, or Aviles goes to third and Iglesias gets his chance. So far I like what I have seen out of Aviles, having two good shortstops is a wonderful quandry to be in. I think Ben knew what he was doing when he traded Scutaro and Lowrie away.
#25
-
-
- 574 posts
Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:33 PM
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I assume at some point that Youks will get hurt, and then either Middlebrooks gets a shot at third, or Aviles goes to third and Iglesias gets his chance. So far I like what I have seen out of Aviles, having two good shortstops is a wonderful quandry to be in. I think Ben knew what he was doing when he traded Scutaro and Lowrie away.
Yeah, Youkilis has taken some extended DL time the past 2 years, and likely will again. I'd guess if he or AG go down, then they'll bring up either Middlebrooks or Anderson. It'll probably depend on who's looking best at the time, and how cool Youkilis would be with going back to 1B. Iglesias really needs to hit just a little better for me to consider him a viable option.
#26
-
-
- 94 posts
Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:52 AM
I really want to see Ciriaco make the team, he's had great numbers this spring. Don't see it happening though.
#27
-
-
- 7,122 posts
SoSH Member
Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:10 PM
Interesting that the same organization that in the 2010 off-season took the time and effort to lecture the entire baseball world on the importance of defense and defensive metrics, this week decided to demote their best defensive player at the game's most important defensive position. Teachable moment!
#28
-
-
- 3,482 posts
Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:38 PM
RT @DDuggan21: Jose Iglesias just hit a 3-run bomb out to left in a Triple-A game.
Edited by soxhop411, 28 March 2012 - 01:39 PM.
#29
-
-
- 841 posts
Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:13 PM
Interesting that the same organization that in the 2010 off-season took the time and effort to lecture the entire baseball world on the importance of defense and defensive metrics, this week decided to demote their best defensive player at the game's most important defensive position. Teachable moment!
Even if one is completely sold that Iglesias is already deserving of the starting SS spot here going forward, at the end of the day it's simply hard to argue with the logic that in by keeping him down that first month or so (or whatever the exact timeframe is), the team preserves that extra year on the arby clock.
Especially given what currently projects to be an annual/extended budget crunch issue after the post-Crawford/Gonzalez deals, and/or if one is viewing Iglesias as a potential long term solution going forward.
#30
-
-
- 694 posts
Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:40 PM
Unless Aviles really is stinking it up (and I don't see that happening, in fact I think he's going to play league average D with a .750ish OPS) I don't think we'll see Iglesias as anything more than a September callup (and possible playoff roster addition).
I'm hoping we get some decent stuff out of Punto and end up dealing him at the trade deadline to some team with an injured 2nd baseman or SS for some small piece in return, we bring up Jose and he plays late inning defense and occasional stats- enough PA's to start getting used to ML quality pitching.
Even then, I think he'll need to have an OPS above .700 at AAA to make that happen which I'm not too confident he'll do
I'm hoping we get some decent stuff out of Punto and end up dealing him at the trade deadline to some team with an injured 2nd baseman or SS for some small piece in return, we bring up Jose and he plays late inning defense and occasional stats- enough PA's to start getting used to ML quality pitching.
Even then, I think he'll need to have an OPS above .700 at AAA to make that happen which I'm not too confident he'll do
#31
-
-
- 3,222 posts
Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:44 PM
RT
@DDuggan21: Jose Iglesias just hit a 3-run bomb out to left in a Triple-A game.
That's awesome. I'm glad the kid is "stepping up to the plate", so to speak.
I agree with Mike, that the extra time we get in his contract for him being in AAA for however long to start the season was to smart to pass up. He'll be here whenever that timeframe ends.
#32
-
-
- 574 posts
Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:11 PM
All the Iglesias talk in incomprehensible to me. Let's wait until he can show that he is a not-terrible hitter in the minors first. Let's wait until he shows he can even hit minor league pitching before make him the starting SS.
#33
-
-
- 588 posts
Posted 29 March 2012 - 07:04 PM
I take two things from the Iglesias situation. 1) Bobby V appreciates SS defense and the kid is appealing in that factor. 2) One guy isn't going to keep the job because he is the veteran and the other isn't going to get the job because he's a blue chip. Motivation in this situation cuts both ways: Iglesias wants to prove the team made a mistake by dropping him; Aviles wants to keep his job. So BV's comments on this subject do not make me think there is a conflict or he is a blowhard. In fact, I take this as a very thoughtful manipulation of an overzealous Boston press.
As for Aviles and the leadoff spot, I don't think this has much to do with Aviles ability to be a good leadoff man. Rather, I think the reasoning is two-fold. Foremost, if Ellsbury continues to hit with this type of power, he should not be hitting leadoff. Second, moving Ellsbury out of the leadoff spot extends the lineup. At present we have Ross/Salty/Sweeney/Crawford hitting 6th, which is not ideal. You move Ellsbury to the 2-hole and you have Youkilis hitting 6th and that is a far better 6th hitter. To do that you have to move someone from the bottom of the lineup to the top of the lineup. Your choices are Crawford, Ross, Sweeney, Crawford, Salty and Aviles. Out of all those guys, Aviles is probably the best option. Not an ideal option, but the nicest turd in the punchbowl. This does not mean it should be done. However, with Aviles offensive potential (i.e., 2008, 2010 and last year in Boston) it's something that is worth, at minimum, considering.
As for Aviles and the leadoff spot, I don't think this has much to do with Aviles ability to be a good leadoff man. Rather, I think the reasoning is two-fold. Foremost, if Ellsbury continues to hit with this type of power, he should not be hitting leadoff. Second, moving Ellsbury out of the leadoff spot extends the lineup. At present we have Ross/Salty/Sweeney/Crawford hitting 6th, which is not ideal. You move Ellsbury to the 2-hole and you have Youkilis hitting 6th and that is a far better 6th hitter. To do that you have to move someone from the bottom of the lineup to the top of the lineup. Your choices are Crawford, Ross, Sweeney, Crawford, Salty and Aviles. Out of all those guys, Aviles is probably the best option. Not an ideal option, but the nicest turd in the punchbowl. This does not mean it should be done. However, with Aviles offensive potential (i.e., 2008, 2010 and last year in Boston) it's something that is worth, at minimum, considering.
#34
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:36 PM
Whats the "Iglesias" situation. Every manager appreciates good defense. We have a Cuban SS prospect with a great glove who has not yet shown he can hit his weight in Triple A, let alone the MLB, much like Juan Bustabad in the 80's who never played a MLB game. If you have no other options, you bring him up based on his glove. But you have Aviles and Punto who will likely have a joint WAR greater than Iglesias would with his glove alone. If Iglesias shows he can hit Triple A pitching, then you have to seriously consider him, but not based on a handful of ST AB. Anyways, logic prevails in this case, credit to everyone involved in sending him down.
As for Aviles at leadofff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If he hits well at the bottom of the order, and the top of the order is struggling, then by all means do a bit of juggling. Talking about doing it to start the season is just silly IMO. This team led the league in runs last year and the top 5 is intact and healthy, give it a chance to repeat.
As for Aviles at leadofff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If he hits well at the bottom of the order, and the top of the order is struggling, then by all means do a bit of juggling. Talking about doing it to start the season is just silly IMO. This team led the league in runs last year and the top 5 is intact and healthy, give it a chance to repeat.
Edited by Sampo Gida, 29 March 2012 - 10:41 PM.
#35
-
-
- 222 posts
Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:39 PM
I don't understand for the life of me why anyone in their right mind thinks Iglesias is a Major League Player when he's below replacement level with his bat at AAA.
#36
-
-
- 161 posts
Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:25 AM
Even if one is completely sold that Iglesias is already deserving of the starting SS spot here going forward, at the end of the day it's simply hard to argue with the logic that in by keeping him down that first month or so (or whatever the exact timeframe is), the team preserves that extra year on the arby clock
Especially given what currently projects to be an annual/extended budget crunch issue after the post-Crawford/Gonzalez deals, and/or if one is viewing Iglesias as a potential long term solution going forward.
I think this is an excellent point.
Whats the "Iglesias" situation. Every manager appreciates good defense. We have a Cuban SS prospect with a great glove who has not yet shown he can hit his weight in Triple A, let alone the MLB, much like Juan Bustabad in the 80's who never played a MLB game. If you have no other options, you bring him up based on his glove. But you have Aviles and Punto who will likely have a joint WAR greater than Iglesias would with his glove alone. If Iglesias shows he can hit Triple A pitching, then you have to seriously consider him, but not based on a handful of ST AB. Anyways, logic prevails in this case, credit to everyone involved in sending him down.
As for Aviles at leadofff. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If he hits well at the bottom of the order, and the top of the order is struggling, then by all means do a bit of juggling. Talking about doing it to start the season is just silly IMO. This team led the league in runs last year and the top 5 is intact and healthy, give it a chance to repeat.
I don't disagree, but will play devil's advocate. It may be that Iglesias' skill set, though limited, coincides with what the team needs most. It is easier to "hide" a 650 OPS on a team that scores tons of runs, while it's conceivable that his level of defense would spur his team to a greater level of run-saving excellence. It may be that Iglesias will never hit so well in AAA that promotion to the major leagues is a slam dunk. At some point, after toiling in the minors for too long, he could lose confidence altogether, and the team in him. Whereas, there can be a (....... wait for it.....) intangible benefit to letting a good player cut his teeth in the majors, saying, "We think you're good enough. Go prove us right."
I agree with the team's decision to let him start in AAA this year, but hope that he gets his chance as the season draws on.
Edited by Stanley Steamer, 30 March 2012 - 12:28 AM.
#37
-
-
- 574 posts
Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:41 PM
I don't disagree, but will play devil's advocate. It may be that Iglesias' skill set, though limited, coincides with what the team needs most. It is easier to "hide" a 650 OPS on a team that scores tons of runs, while it's conceivable that his level of defense would spur his team to a greater level of run-saving excellence. It may be that Iglesias will never hit so well in AAA that promotion to the major leagues is a slam dunk. At some point, after toiling in the minors for too long, he could lose confidence altogether, and the team in him. Whereas, there can be a (....... wait for it.....) intangible benefit to letting a good player cut his teeth in the majors, saying, "We think you're good enough. Go prove us right."
I agree with the team's decision to let him start in AAA this year, but hope that he gets his chance as the season draws on.
I don't know...a run saved isn't worth more than a run produced with the bat. Whether the runs come on the hitting side rather than the fielding side doesn't matter that much - the dude just needs to be better. He's clearly a great fielder, but still has plenty to prove with his hitting. A great glove is only worth so much unless you've got Inspector Gadget arms or are actually a wizard or something.
#38
-
-
- 161 posts
Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:22 PM
I don't know...a run saved isn't worth more than a run produced with the bat. Whether the runs come on the hitting side rather than the fielding side doesn't matter that much - the dude just needs to be better. He's clearly a great fielder, but still has plenty to prove with his hitting. A great glove is only worth so much unless you've got Inspector Gadget arms or are actually a wizard or something.
True enough, but is it a run for a run? I'm not sabermetrically savvy enough to make such calculations, but what is the difference between a SS who hits 650 vs one who hits 780, in terms of RC over a season? And then you factor in how many runs saved by an excellent fielder at SS vs an average one. It seems most fielding metrics aren't exact enough to allow for a clear equation, but I suspect having a fielder like Iglesias at such an essential defensive position, in a lineup as loaded as Boston's, would make this equation rather close.
#39
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:05 PM
True enough, but is it a run for a run? I'm not sabermetrically savvy enough to make such calculations, but what is the difference between a SS who hits 650 vs one who hits 780, in terms of RC over a season? And then you factor in how many runs saved by an excellent fielder at SS vs an average one. It seems most fielding metrics aren't exact enough to allow for a clear equation, but I suspect having a fielder like Iglesias at such an essential defensive position, in a lineup as loaded as Boston's, would make this equation rather close.
http://www.fangraphs...ias/#more-81352
This article might help.
#40
-
-
- 1,434 posts
Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:17 PM
I think 780 is a little optimistic for Aviles, but Iglesias isn't ready to be a 650OPS everyday hitter in the AL East. I'm on record thinking that he can become more like O-Cab then Ordoņez, but he isn't ready for that yet.
I think someone else can do the calculations between a 750OPS avg glove defender and a 550OPS greatest range ever defender, but at the margins there is less room to save runs than to create them.
If the Red Sox give up 700 runs how many of those could actually be saved by a hypotheical greatest shortstop ever who is 20% better than anybody else in the history of the game? I don't mean that as a rhetorical question anti-Iglesias, but a real question of how many runs don't pass anywhere near the shortstop and could be prevented by a superhuman? How many runs could be saved if every grounder between Youk and Pedey were an automatic out? That would give us a hypothetical ceiling on runs saved.
Similarly, ignoring the slugging component of offense for a moment, if the obp difference were say from 340 to 280 we are talking about an extra 40 outs in the season or about an extra out made every 4 or 5 days.
I think it isn't unrealistic to expect Iglesias to make a play Aviles couldn't every 4 or 5 days and save as many outs as he makes extra at the plate. Shortening a defensive inning as often as he shortens an offensive inning. But he can only take away singles in the field, but he takes away doubles and homers as well at the plate, so he would need to convert more extra outs with the field than he causes at the plate to be a net gain.
But absent the hard data to turn that brainstorming into analysis, my guess is that Aviles is more valuable right now, and Iglesias needs to learn to be more of a develop as a hitter maybe from the 550 OPS level to 600+ and it will take more time and hard work in AAA for that to happen. I can't wait for it to be the case though...
I think someone else can do the calculations between a 750OPS avg glove defender and a 550OPS greatest range ever defender, but at the margins there is less room to save runs than to create them.
If the Red Sox give up 700 runs how many of those could actually be saved by a hypotheical greatest shortstop ever who is 20% better than anybody else in the history of the game? I don't mean that as a rhetorical question anti-Iglesias, but a real question of how many runs don't pass anywhere near the shortstop and could be prevented by a superhuman? How many runs could be saved if every grounder between Youk and Pedey were an automatic out? That would give us a hypothetical ceiling on runs saved.
Similarly, ignoring the slugging component of offense for a moment, if the obp difference were say from 340 to 280 we are talking about an extra 40 outs in the season or about an extra out made every 4 or 5 days.
I think it isn't unrealistic to expect Iglesias to make a play Aviles couldn't every 4 or 5 days and save as many outs as he makes extra at the plate. Shortening a defensive inning as often as he shortens an offensive inning. But he can only take away singles in the field, but he takes away doubles and homers as well at the plate, so he would need to convert more extra outs with the field than he causes at the plate to be a net gain.
But absent the hard data to turn that brainstorming into analysis, my guess is that Aviles is more valuable right now, and Iglesias needs to learn to be more of a develop as a hitter maybe from the 550 OPS level to 600+ and it will take more time and hard work in AAA for that to happen. I can't wait for it to be the case though...
#41
-
-
- 16 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:03 PM
How many people are going to continue riding the Jose Iglesias train he is still not good at hitting I don't need to put up statistics it's clear he is not hitting he wasn't hitting before he is not hitting now and I would give him one more year if he I not hitting trade him do not bring him up to decrease his vlue everyone knows he can field trade him to a national leauge team for a good reliever or package deal for starter or pitching prospect
#42
-
-
- 2,391 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:50 PM
How many people are going to continue riding the Jose Iglesias train he is still not good at hitting I don't need to put up statistics it's clear he is not hitting he wasn't hitting before he is not hitting now and I would give him one more year if he I not hitting trade him do not bring him up to decrease his vlue everyone knows he can field trade him to a national leauge team for a good reliever or package deal for starter or pitching prospect
Can he go into the hole, make a play and shut down what otherwise would be a 7 run inning? If so, might be acceptable - even if he has to change his last name to Mendoza. To save on cab fare, the parent club can put Lavarnway, Anderson and Cook in the same taxi. JH and LL are sure to appreciate Ben's thrift.
Edited by fineyoungarm, 22 April 2012 - 09:14 PM.
#43
-
-
- 1,182 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:04 PM
I think Aviles can be a strong back end of the lineup kind of a guy, but asking him to hit from the lead-off spot is too much to ask. Iglesias has the glove to be a starter but we all know his hitting isn't at major league level yet. I think it's ok to give him the SS spot when Elsbury comes back because with the Sox offense, your SS being a big time run producer shouldn't be a big concern.
When your 2B hit's .330, it's ok for your SS to hit .230
When your 2B hit's .330, it's ok for your SS to hit .230
#44
-
-
- 16 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:08 PM
Agreed and that's just another good way to look at it someone needs to go so that relief can come in though I see Another trade coming for relief pitcher
#45
-
-
- 2,391 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 05:16 PM
Agreed and that's just another good way to look at it someone needs to go so that relief can come in though I see Another trade coming for relief pitcher
Makes sense, if Ellsbury is back any time soon. If not, to be a master of the obvious (MOTO) remaining weak up the middle may pose a bigger problem than taking Aviles' bat out of line up.
But to MOTO it again, right now the priority is the bullpen. With The Swede called up, your good idea to try and deal him to Astros may be off table (if it was ever on it, as it should have been).
Edited by fineyoungarm, 22 April 2012 - 05:19 PM.
#46
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:14 PM
Interesting article here on Aviles
And this doesn’t include the near player revolt he had on his hands the very first week of spring training when, the Daily News has learned, he got all over shortstop Mike Aviles in what sources described as “a very ugly scene” during infield drills. After a group of Red Sox players confronted him with outrage, Valentine had to apologize to Aviles.
After that, Bobby V started singing Iglesias praises. Aviles is on a short leash I think, with Bobby V anyways. Having Aviles batting lead off against RHP'ers is setting him up for failure, like Bobby V's management of Bards 2 starts (letting JT face Arencibia to clean up Bards IR and allowing a clearly tanked Bard to walk in the go ahead run). What Bobby V wants, he will get, sooner or later.
I think Aviles as exceeded expectations at SS defensively, despite a rocky outing yesterday.
#47
-
-
- 2,391 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:05 PM
Interesting article here on Aviles
http://www.nydailyne...5#ixzz1sokpesCrAfter that, Bobby V started singing Iglesias praises. Aviles is on a short leash I think, with Bobby V anyways. Having Aviles batting lead off against RHP'ers is setting him up for failure, like Bobby V's management of Bards 2 starts (letting JT face Arencibia to clean up Bards IR and allowing a clearly tanked Bard to walk in the go ahead run). What Bobby V wants, he will get, sooner or later.
I think Aviles as exceeded expectations at SS defensively, despite a rocky outing yesterday.
Lots of reports re BV's confrontation with Aviles. I have read nothing about what sparked it (other than some facile comments about BV being a jerk). Do you have any recon? (Probably it's me, but every time Aviles ranges right or left, I am holding my breath.)
Your point re BV getting what BV wants is well taken, and I had the same thought re Bard's last outting.
#48
-
-
- 1,681 posts
Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:27 PM
Lots of reports re BV's confrontation with Aviles. I have read nothing about what sparked it (other than some facile comments about BV being a jerk). Do you have any recon? (Probably it's me, but every time Aviles ranges right or left, I am holding my breath.) Your point re BV getting what BV wants is well taken, and I had the same thought re Bard's last outting.
Funny, I don't recall any reports of a confrontation with Aviles until this article.
#49
-
-
- 574 posts
Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:10 AM
Funny, I don't recall any reports of a confrontation with Aviles until this article.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were no reports of a confrontation with Aviles from anyone outside the writer's head. This is the NY Daily News, after all.
#50
-
-
- 2,391 posts
Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:50 PM
Funny, I don't recall any reports of a confrontation with Aviles until this article.
Lots of chatter would have been much more accurate.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
