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Sox players discuss the collapse


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#51 ShaneTrot

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:50 PM

Seriously, Micheal Kay can finally update his talking points.

Well, Key is brutally awful on his best day. I am sure that we will hear about the collapse all year but not that the 2011 Sox ass-raped the 2011 MFY to the tune of 12 wins and 6 losses in the season series.

#52 joyofsox


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:13 AM

David Ortiz, on whether he talked to the players involved in bad things last year:

I think I did. But I do things in a different way. When I talk to any of the guys on the team, I don't want to sound like I'm their dad. I make sure that they understand that it's a friend, a brother, another player, talking to them. That's why my communication with a lot of them is easy. I have a good relationship with everybody. It's not my job to walk on anyone. I'm just an employee just like any one else. I'm not a babysitter or anything like that. I'm talking to another man just like me. There's a difference between being a team leader and being a babysitter. Everybody has an idea about what they are here for. ...

If I'm [messing] up, I can't go to no one and let them know what they are doing wrong. When it comes to a leader, I've got to do what I'm supposed to do first of all. Then I have the right to go and talk to any one else. That's basically what I have been doing here through the years. But you only can talk until one point as a player. After that — managers, GM, front office — they take over. You have limitations to talk to another player like you are. After that, there is nothing else you can do.



#53 YTF

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:09 AM

Well, Key is brutally awful on his best day. I am sure that we will hear about the collapse all year but not that the 2011 Sox ass-raped the 2011 MFY to the tune of 12 wins and 6 losses in the season series.


As well we should. Kills me to remind you of this, but the MFY won 97 games and the division last season. The "ass-raping you speak of did little to stop that. The collapse may have aided it.

#54 tims4wins


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:49 AM

Advanced ALDS scouting reports were handed out during the rain delay in game 162

As Easterbrook would say, ye gods

#55 reggiecleveland


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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:02 PM

Advanced ALDS scouting reports were handed out during the rain delay in game 162

As Easterbrook would say, ye gods


I thnik those were just menus.

#56 tims4wins


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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:56 PM

Annnnd Beckett is still pissed

Somebody made that stuff up, just like somebody made up that we were doing stuff … This is stupid. I don't understand what the big deal is. Somebody was trying to save their own ass, and it probably cost a lot of people their asses. The snitching [expletive], that's [expletive]. It's not good. There's two things with the clubhouse thing that I have a problem with: If I'm going to say something about the clubhouse, my name is going to be on it. The second thing is you never want to be remembered as that guy because that will follow wherever you go. It's just mind-boggling to me.



#57 amh03


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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:17 PM

Actually, if you read the full interview on the EEI link (http://www.weei.com/...eckett-sees-no-) he doesn't really come across angry. The bit that you quoted, tims4wins, is just a very small part and does not read quite as angry when it's in the context of the full interview. I'd recommend reading the fuller version...very interesting...

#58 tims4wins


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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:21 PM

Of course, that is what I get from just reading the Abraham report on Extra Bases. Thanks.

#59 IpswichSox

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:30 PM

Yeah, I also thought Abraham over-played "the pissed-off, expletive-filled interview" in his Extra Bases reporting. In Bradford's story, it doesn't come across that way, at least to me.

#60 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:38 AM

Beckett's attempt to play the victim falls very flat. Stop talking Josh.

#61 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:47 AM

Beckett's attempt to play the victim falls very flat. Stop talking Josh.

Agreed. "Snitching"? Seriously? That's 6th-grade crap. If it's not that big a deal--and you're right, in the big picture it isn't--then there's no reason to be shifting blame for it. Just own it like a grownup.

#62 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:48 AM

Agreed. "Snitching"? Seriously? That's 6th-grade crap. If it's not that big a deal--and you're right, in the big picture it isn't--then there's no reason to be shifting blame for it. Just own it like a grownup.


I understand a lot of these guys get their self-motivation from an 'us against the world' attitude, but he comes across as belligerent and out of touch. And given that his own injury and enormous waistline were a big part of the problem down the stretch last season, he would be better served by saying nothing at all.

#63 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:03 AM

I understand a lot of these guys get their self-motivation from an 'us against the world' attitude, but he comes across as belligerent and out of touch. And given that his own injury and enormous waistline were a big part of the problem down the stretch last season, he would be better served by saying nothing at all.


Yea I'm ready for everybody to move on from the drama of 2011, but man Beckett seems to be saying all the wrong things. Pretty disappointing.

#64 jodyreeddudley78

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:07 AM

I understand a lot of these guys get their self-motivation from an 'us against the world' attitude, but he comes across as belligerent and out of touch. And given that his own injury and enormous waistline were a big part of the problem down the stretch last season, he would be better served by saying nothing at all.


Along these lines: anyone else bothered by the theme that Beckett gained weight due to his wife's pregnancy? I understand that he had ankle issues, but by his own admission it only limited his workouts, it did not completely eliminate the cardio segment. I understand the idea that the husband could gain weight during the pregnancy, trust me, but the idea that a professional athlete puts on a visible amount of weight -- during the season -- due to this is a bit over the top.

#65 rembrat


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:17 AM

Not really. First of all, an ankle injury would almost certainly limit the amount of cardio anyone could do. That should go without saying and he said he couldn't run so people really need to stop getting on him for that. And secondly, veteran pitchers put on weight during the season.

#66 jodyreeddudley78

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:04 AM

Not really. First of all, an ankle injury would almost certainly limit the amount of cardio anyone could do. That should go without saying and he said he couldn't run so people really need to stop getting on him for that. And secondly, veteran pitchers put on weight during the season.


You're right on both counts. I guess the "Hey, the wife got pregnant and I hurt my ankle on Sept. 5th, so I gained some weight" attitude bugs me more than it should. But the whole article kind of struck me as dismissive about how the year ended. Contrast that with the emotional response that the "snitch" seemed to get out of him and Beckett doesn't come off that great in the interview, to me at least.

#67 lexrageorge

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:20 AM

In Beckett's defense, he did also lash out at the whole way the Francona mess ended, and in that case the snitching was definitely out of line. I agree it's time for Josh to move on; probably time for someone in the management chain (Bobby V, Cherington, PR dept) to pull him aside and give him a little coaching on handling this mess.

#68 Doctor G

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:33 AM

In Beckett's defense, he did also lash out at the whole way the Francona mess ended, and in that case the snitching was definitely out of line. I agree it's time for Josh to move on; probably time for someone in the management chain (Bobby V, Cherington, PR dept) to pull him aside and give him a little coaching on handling this mess.

Beckett's anger seems to be generated by the way Tito was treated on the way out. this is not a self-pitying interview. It is just the opposite. Beckett actually says he is as happy as he has ever been as a new father.

#69 TheoShmeo


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:39 AM

In Beckett's defense, he did also lash out at the whole way the Francona mess ended, and in that case the snitching was definitely out of line. I agree it's time for Josh to move on; probably time for someone in the management chain (Bobby V, Cherington, PR dept) to pull him aside and give him a little coaching on handling this mess.

In a perfect world, I'd agree. But Beckett doesn't seem to be particularly receptive or open to views that are not his own. Said differently, someone who doesn't intuitively appreciate that the right move was to come into camp in terrific shape and be contrite or, at minimum, keep his head down and go about his work, is not likely the kind of person who will take such coaching.

Beckett's seemingly dour outlook is perplexing. I wonder if he'll one day wake up and realize that he didn't need to be so combative and negative. Playing a kids game and getting paid fabulously to do so is something that many of us would give our left nut to do. It's too bad it all seems so heavy for him (if it, in fact, does). Now maybe he needs to be this way, or thinks he needs to be this way, to succeed. I doubt that's right but I guess it's possible that he at least thinks that way.

#70 Carroll Hardy


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

He actually had a good season, and did not pitch particularly poorly in his last two starts, despite folklore to the contrary.

#71 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:02 AM

He actually had a good season, and did not pitch particularly poorly in his last two starts, despite folklore to the contrary.


:blink:

Sept. 21, vs BAL 7 IP, 6 ER, 2 HR allowed (L)
Sept. 26, @ BAL, 6 IP, 6 ER, 2 HR allowed (L)

He pitched terribly in those two starts. And he did so when the team needed him most, as they were also at the crucial point of the entire season. He lost two games by pitching badly against a horseshit team. The Sox missed the playoffs by one game. Had Beckett gone out there and pitched merely mediocre (say 6 IP, 3 R) instead of awfully, the Sox would have made the playoffs.

He deserves criticism, just like the rest of the team, for playing badly with the season on the line.

#72 jodyreeddudley78

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:48 AM

He actually had a good season, and did not pitch particularly poorly in his last two starts, despite folklore to the contrary.


Not to sound snarky, but I think you mean he pitched well despite the results. In both games, he pitched well through the first five innings. Then he fell apart. This could have been because of the ankle, or conditioning, or both. But he still fell apart, despite barely going over 100 pitches in both games.

edit: yeah, what SJH said. It's worth pointing out that those two games added nearly half a run to his ERA for the year. Not good.

Edited by jodyreeddudley78, 28 February 2012 - 11:51 AM.


#73 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:51 AM

Not to sound snarky, but I think you mean he pitched well despite the results. In both games, he pitched well through the first five innings. Then he fell apart. This could have been because of the ankle, or conditioning, or both. But he still fell apart, despite barely going over 100 pitches in both games.


For the first game, yes (1 BB, 8Ks). He had bad control for the second game.

Long story short, he gave up 6 runs in each game to a last place team and the Sox lost both games in the end run of a season in which they missed the playoffs by one game. It was a team effort to choke so spectacularly, but there's honestly no way I can say Beckett pitched well in either game. He pitched very, very poorly; whether that was due to conditioning or fatigue from his marathon Popeye's and COD4 sessions, I do not know.

#74 tims4wins


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

For the first game, yes (1 BB, 8Ks). He had bad control for the second game.

Long story short, he gave up 6 runs in each game to a last place team and the Sox lost both games in the end run of a season in which they missed the playoffs by one game. It was a team effort to choke so spectacularly, but there's honestly no way I can say Beckett pitched well in either game. He pitched very, very poorly; whether that was due to conditioning or fatigue from his marathon Popeye's and COD4 sessions, I do not know.


I don't think it's fair to say he pitched very, very poorly. In the first game, the Sox led 4-2 through 6 innings. Beckett gave up a game tying 2 run homer in the 7th to make it 4-4. Tito then let him start the 8th, and he went pop out, single, ground rule double before Aceves came in and gave up the inherited runners. Beckett didn't pitch well that night, but he didn't pitch very, very poorly either.

In the 2nd game, it was a similar story. Beckett pitched ok through 5 and the game was tied at 2. In the bottom of the 6th, the O's had 1st and 2nd with 2 outs. Beckett then gave up a double followed by the fateful inside-the-park home run. Again, he didn't pitch well, but he didn't pitch very, very poorly in that start.

Edited by tims4wins, 28 February 2012 - 12:11 PM.


#75 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:09 PM

You give up 6 runs apiece to a last place team and lose both must-win games, you've pitched poorly.

Sorry. He's supposed to be the number 1 pitcher on the staff, he doesn't get a gold star for trying. He pitched like crap. Those HRs count too.

#76 TheoShmeo


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:15 PM

Agree with SJH. With the season on the line, the supposed ace isn't graded on grammer school curve. Beckett needed to shut the Os down in at least one of those games and he didn't come close to doing that.

Under the circumstances, and given the 6 earned runs in each start, he pitched poorly.

That doesn't mean, as Steve Buckley was suggesting on Comcast's Sunday night show, that Beckett's season was poor. It wasn't. His numbers tell us that he had an excellent season. But in those two games, he was -- on the Josh Beckett/Ace scale -- pretty pretty bad.

#77 Carroll Hardy


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:25 PM

I didn't say, or even imply, that he pitched well in his last two starts. But he wasn't shelled, either. He kept the team in those games, then faltered. Blame Beckett all you want: but that horseshit team had 191 HRs last year. The Orioles were a horseshit team because of their pitching staff, and our hitters couldn't score more than 3-4 runs off of the likes of Tommy Hunter, Clay Rapada, and Willie Eyre with the season on the line.

#78 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:33 PM

He wasn't shelled? He pitched 13 innings and gave up 12 runs. He allowed 4 home runs in those 13 innings.

I dunno, that's a pretty low bar to set for your supposedly 1 or 1A pitcher.

He was awful with the season on the line and deserves a ton of criticism for that. Fortunately for him the rest of the team does as well since they also choked in the games that Beckett wasn't pitching. .

#79 Average Reds


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:42 PM

I didn't say, or even imply, that he pitched well in his last two starts. But he wasn't shelled, either. He kept the team in those games, then faltered. Blame Beckett all you want: but that horseshit team had 191 HRs last year. The Orioles were a horseshit team because of their pitching staff, and our hitters couldn't score more than 3-4 runs off of the likes of Tommy Hunter, Clay Rapada, and Willie Eyre with the season on the line.


I'm pretty comfortable defining an ERA of just under 9 against a last place club in two consecutive starts as being "shelled."

#80 tims4wins


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:46 PM

He gave up 14 hits in 13.1 IP. He kept the Sox in the game through 5 and 6 innings in the two starts. Getting shelled, to me, means getting knocked out before completing 5 innings and basically giving your team no chance of winning, i.e., what Lackey does 2 starts out of every 5.

#81 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:50 PM

4 of those hits were home runs. Those count too. He was awful.

#82 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:58 PM

His FIP for those two games comes out to 6.28 vs. his actual ERA of 8.78. So I guess one could conclude that he pitched a little better than his line would indicate. But any way you slice it, he was terrible.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 28 February 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#83 ngruz25


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:07 PM

4 of those hits were home runs. Those count too. He was awful.

One of those, of course, was a fly ball to the warning track that landed in Jacoby Ellsbury's glove. If Ellsbury isn't playing 20 feet behind second base Beckett is through 6 innings with 3 ER. Not ace-like, but not awful.

#84 pk1627

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:10 PM

I've been thinking that the media is the source of the focus on failure, but I see that there's a pretty big segment of the fan base that just eats up the stuff. Why isn't the Papelbon meltdown with two outs in the ninth the crucial part of the season? How about Papi blowing a bases loaded situation? Why isn't the first inning hr in the Lester start against TBay the crucial part of the season? No, it's Josh Beckett because he said something to a reporter.

#85 TomRicardo


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:51 PM

Yeah, I also thought Abraham over-played "the pissed-off, expletive-filled interview" in his Extra Bases reporting. In Bradford's story, it doesn't come across that way, at least to me.


Probably because our dear friend PeteAbe has a propencity to just make stuff up.

#86 jodyreeddudley78

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:43 PM

I've been thinking that the media is the source of the focus on failure, but I see that there's a pretty big segment of the fan base that just eats up the stuff. Why isn't the Papelbon meltdown with two outs in the ninth the crucial part of the season? How about Papi blowing a bases loaded situation? Why isn't the first inning hr in the Lester start against TBay the crucial part of the season? No, it's Josh Beckett because he said something to a reporter.


I don't think this is true. The best part about September is that everyone took part. So, for some, Bard's sudden ineffectiveness is to blame. For others, September was the end result of Lackey's year long attack on the definition of "Major League Pitching". For others, Crawford symbolized the inevitable collapse. Etc., etc., etc.... So, why does it surprise anyone that -- for some -- the guy that who was one of the best pitchers in baseball for 5 months, but fell apart in September, should symbolize the collapse?

#87 YTF

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:40 PM

Want to know a huge PART of Beckett's problem? He's not an ace. He wants to be, he thinks he is, he's treated like he is and we expect him to be one, but he's not. That doesn't excuse anything, but I think it all feeds into it this shit show that's been going on around him since the collapse and even before. Look at his stats over his 6 years in Boston. A VERY good pitcher overall, oustanding at times, but not an ace.

http://www.baseball-...beckejo02.shtml

#88 BucketOBalls


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

Want to know a huge PART of Beckett's problem? He's not an ace. He wants to be, he thinks he is, he's treated like he is and we expect him to be one, but he's not. That doesn't excuse anything, but I think it all feeds into it this shit show that's been going on around him since the collapse and even before. Look at his stats over his 6 years in Boston. A VERY good pitcher overall, oustanding at times, but not an ace.

http://www.baseball-...beckejo02.shtml


That's been true for years(and it depends how you define ace...but yeah, I would agree). Ironicly, last year actually mostly counts against this argument. If Beckett had pitched well in his last two games but had 2 more clunkers in the middle of the year we would be talking about how the collapse wasn't his fault.

#89 Remagellan

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:21 PM

I really wish this team and its fans would take a Don Draper approach to last season and move on.

"Get out of here and move forward. This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened."

#90 YTF

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:30 PM

That's been true for years(and it depends how you define ace...but yeah, I would agree). Ironicly, last year actually mostly counts against this argument. If Beckett had pitched well in his last two games but had 2 more clunkers in the middle of the year we would be talking about how the collapse wasn't his fault.


Yes and no. It actually feeds into the notion of him being an ace or elite pitcher, but also demonstrates his inconsistancies from year to year in his 6 years with the Sox. I also think that under different circumstances you would be right about the last part of your statement, but given Beckett's part in the chicken and beer thing and his response toward it I think he would still be portrayed as part of the overall clubhouse problem, be it real or perceived.

#91 rembrat


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:54 PM

Forgotten is how Ellsbury was responsible, but not credited, for 3 runs in the bottom of the 6th where he caught the ball but lost it while running into the CF wall. Everyone had a part in that awful September. Everyone.

#92 kartvelo

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:19 PM

Forgotten is how Ellsbury was responsible, but not credited, for 3 runs in the bottom of the 6th where he caught the ball but lost it while running into the CF wall. Everyone had a part in that awful September. Everyone.

Yes, he let a little thing like being knocked semi-conscious prevent him from holding onto the ball. Slacker.

#93 rembrat


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:47 PM

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...py_19704805&v=3

#94 Pearl Wilson


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:07 PM

Would have been a helluva play.

#95 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:37 PM

If he'd made the catch, we would have been talking about it for the rest of his career. It would have been the best Red Sox outfield catch at least since Coco's catch that clinched the ALCS in '07 (and that one was arguably easier since the ball wasn't hit straight over Coco's head). It sucks that he dropped it, but I don't see how you can call it a failure of execution. He's hitting the wall at full speed, fully extended. Hanging onto the ball in that situation is basically luck.

#96 rembrat


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:15 PM

I wouldnt call it luck. Is it luck when a catcher holds on to the ball as he is bowled over at the plate? Granted getting trucked and running into walls arent plays you practice but you're expected to make them at the major league level.

All I'm saying is if the ball hits the pocket of your glove then its a catchable ball.

And to leave Beckett alone!! /hysterical Britney fan

#97 Al Zarilla


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:20 PM

Dragging Ellsbury's almost great catch through here completes the worst off season ever for me, even worse than several of the pre-Impossible Dream years, during which there was little hope for a good Sox year. Now, let's f'n play ball!!

#98 Toe Nash

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:22 PM

And if Beckett doesn't leave a 93 MPH fastball over the middle of the plate then he's not in the position to have to make a very difficult catch.

#99 TheoShmeo


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:25 PM

Dragging Ellsbury's almost great catch through here completes the worst off season ever for me, even worse than several of the pre-Impossible Dream years, during which there was little hope for a good Sox year. Now, let's f'n play ball!!

Why stop the self loathing exercises now? We wouldn't want to deprive our good friends at NYYFans of another good schadenfreude opportunity. We must re-live every aspect of 2011, declare ourselves mutants and cry in our beers, again and again and agin.

#100 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:10 PM

Is it luck when a catcher holds on to the ball as he is bowled over at the plate?


I certainly think it is, in the majority of cases at least. Or not necessarily luck in the strict sense, but factors beyond the conscious control of the athlete. I don't think it's usually a matter of who is tougher or wants it more or has better skills. It's a matter of millimeters of difference in the position of the colliding body parts (or body parts and walls, in the case of Ellsbury's non-catch). If you want to understand why one guy holds on while the other doesn't, I think you'd most often be better off consulting a chaos theoretician than a sports psychologist.

I could, of course, be wrong. But I think there's an ingrained tendency on the part of us fans to overrate the role of skill and "grit" when evaluating extreme plays like this.