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Sox players discuss the collapse


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#1 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:30 PM

Here's what Beckett had to say.

Beckett:

When you say you had things going on that distracted you, are you referring to becoming a new parent?

I was distracted



--Changes in training staff, conditioning staff. How fair is it to characterize you as one of guys who were not in condition at end of season, might have been a weight issue?


I put on a little bit of weight. I don’t have a reason for it. But it happened. I’m looking forward to going forward from here.



--Are you more upset about lapses in judgment or because they became public knowledge?


I’m upset with myself for lapses of judgment. There’s also some ill feelings toward some people.

--When you say people..?

There’s people.


http://espn.go.com/b...ses-in-judgment

I guess ill feelings are something that we all have in common now.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 19 February 2012 - 12:31 PM.


#2 ichirob4ichiro

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

How delightfully vague. "People" meaning other players? The leaky staff? The media? A collection of people?

Doesn't give you the impression that he will be forgetting about it anytime soon. I can't see how these feelings wouldn't linger for the rest of his stay in Boston.

#3 SoxScout


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:57 PM

To be honest, this is a lot more accountability from Beckett than I was expecting. I was basically thinking he would not answer or walk out at some point.

Here is Lester:

"We stunk, I stunk and Tampa Bay was better and that's basically how it was. You put that in your filing bank."

Lester also said the team does have a responsibility of showing the fans that the players do care about winning them back and making up for last year.

"I hope they don't have a different perception of me," he said. "I'm still the same guy, still the same person I was five years ago. I care a lot about this team, I care a lot about my job. I hope fans realize that had nothing to do with what happened on the field. What happened on the field, happened on the field. I stunk, we stunk. We're looking forward to proving people wrong. Last year, everybody wanted to give us the World Series title the first day and this year, I think we come in as underdogs. I think that's going to be fun. It's going to be fun to see how guys react and we go about our business.

"It's one of those things I don't think you'll ever really forget. In baseball, it seems like every year there something you've never seen before. That was one thing I've never really seen. Now that it's over and we're here, and it's a new season, a new start, I'm kind of glad a lot of these guys went through it. I'm glad I went through it. It's going to make us better, it's going to make us stronger to where if we get in a position like that we can reflect back on last year and September and realize we can get through this and play better."

http://www.weei.com/...-make-us-better

Edited by SoxScout, 19 February 2012 - 12:58 PM.


#4 genivive

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:58 PM

I get the feeling that this narrative: Good guy Lester; Bad guy Beckett was written by the media before either spoke and it probably didn't matter what Josh said. Winning will fix some of this, but IBI is right, he won't forget.

#5 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

What does he mean by "there is people"?

#6 E5 Yaz


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:12 PM

What does he mean by "there is people"?


He means "there is corporations"



I get the feeling that this narrative: Good guy Lester; Bad guy Beckett was written by the media before either spoke and it probably didn't matter what Josh said. Winning will fix some of this, but IBI is right, he won't forget.


yup

While it would be unfair and inaccurate to say Beckett didn’t accept responsibility for what happened in the clubhouse, he didn’t exactly embrace the chance to fall on his sword.
Beckett teetered on the edge of defiance throughout, suggesting that he’s as upset by the clubhouse leaks that allowed the story to go public as he is with the “lapses in judgement” themselves.
“I still have some ill feelings towards some people,” he admitted.
Left-hander Jon Lester, meanwhile, offered quite the juxtaposition. Where Beckett was a bit clipped with his answers and offered the bare minimum of regret, Lester clearly and concisely admitted his mistakes, spoke at length about how they motivated him this winter, and sounded an awful lot like someone ready to make the next step from mere All-Star to bonafide clubhouse leader.


http://bostonherald....sports/red_sox/

Edited by E5 Yaz, 19 February 2012 - 01:17 PM.


#7 JBill

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:17 PM

Winning will fix some of this, but IBI is right, he won't forget.


Excellent, I'm glad he won't forget, no one should forget...whatever it is he's not forgetting.

Cranky Beckett is normal Beckett, he's always a little surly, it's nothing new.

#8 Dick Pole Upside

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:21 PM

I read Gordon's more complete remarks from Beckett. Beckett acknowledged he had lapses in judgment, but was careful to only speak for himself. It sounds to me like the media was baiting him and obviously trying to get him to go into detail, which he wouldn't. He acknowledged lapses in judgment. Acknowledged that he gained weight. Acknowledged that he pitched poorly. But he would not go into detail or implicate anyone else. I have zero problem with this. My guess is that he's got a lot of ill feelings toward the media and some of the clubhouse sources, and he will be more circumspect than usual around the press. They should get over it. Move along.

#9 ichirob4ichiro

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:29 PM

Cranky Beckett is normal Beckett, he's always a little surly, it's nothing new.


Well firey, a-hole Beckett is one thing. But it is hard to tell if he will be starting the season with so much angst for the people around him that he is a couple of bad outings away from choking out the team travel manager. . .

#10 jose melendez


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:10 PM

why can't they all blame everything on Jon Lackey and move on?

#11 amarshal2

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:21 PM

http://bostonherald....sports/red_sox/

"Contrite Lester, Defiant Beckett a study in contrasts"

Tomase can go to hell (almost five years later, it's still amazing to me he has a job in this town). I really didn't see much difference in the reactions of Beckett and Lester. They both apologized for their role and accepted blame. Why should Beckett fall on the sword? There were 25 men and a lot of coaches in that clubhouse. It would be ridiculous for Beckett to accept all ownership. This is classic story making BS.

As for Beckett being pissed at a few people, what a shocker. It was an absolute media feeding frenzy turned witch hunt that included accusations of Tito popping pills. The whole thing was rather disgusting on all sides (i.e., media, players, ownership). I'm sure there are people that deserve his ire.

edit: grammar, clarifications

Edited by amarshal2, 19 February 2012 - 02:24 PM.


#12 someoneanywhere

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:24 PM

why can't they all blame everything on Jon Lackey and move on?


Amen, brother.

After all, we have.

#13 Sprowl


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

why can't they all blame everything on Jon Lackey and move on?


Because we don't have John Lackey to kick around anymore (at least not until 2013).


In Beckett's defense, I can imagine that getting ready for the birth of a first child could be a significant distraction, and not an unreasonable one.

#14 genivive

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:17 PM

I suspect that he would never admit to that. Not very macho.

#15 lexrageorge

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:30 PM

I am certainly not a fan of the way the Sox players handled themselves on the field late last season. I hated the way they played the game last September, and I do feel mental lapses and bad attitudes contributed somewhat to their September collapse; it wasn't just bad luck. Even Tito and Theo seemed to agree. I will have absolutely no sympathy or empathy for any player that complains about Valentine or his new spring training regimen. My attitude will generally be "Tough nuts, you guys brought this upon yourselves".

And I do feel Beckett was part of the problem. It was obvious to everyone that he was out of shape late last season, and the stats show he sucked wind in September. Case closed.

As for the "clubhouse stuff", count me as one of those who was highly critical of the "beer and chicken" episodes. While I still don't endorse such behavior, time has shown that those episodes were likely blown way out of proportion in terms of their actual impact to the team. Beckett and Lester gaining wait? Bad. Lackey showing up Tito on multiple occasions? Bad. Team executing poor fundamentals on the field? Very bad. Beer and Chicken? In reality a far less serious problem than the others just mentioned.

However, the media is being ridiculous here. Beckett comes forward, acknowledges he made some mistakes last year, and implies he's ready to learn from his mistakes and move forward. What do people want? There were a lot of clubhouse leaks after the season imploded, some of them far worse than a couple of helpings of Popeyes. He's right to be a bit torqued. And now that the new season has started, it's truly time for everyone to move on from the clubhouse stuff. Obviously, Tomase and CHB will have the knives out, but both are truly regarded by most not as serious journalists, but instead as the cartoon characters they truly are.

#16 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:58 PM

Because we don't have John Lackey to kick around anymore (at least not until 2013).


In Beckett's defense, I can imagine that getting ready for the birth of a first child could be a significant distraction, and not an unreasonable one.

Obviously it would be a distraction. And with the demands of his 40 hour a week day job, too, it's not that unreasonable that he couldn't put in the time to work out and get . .
Oh, that's right. He had no other demands on his time but couldn't be bothered to work out a fricking hour a day or something.

#17 Rasputin


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:01 PM

Oh goody. I've been looking forward to more irresponsible speculation and gross generalization all winter.

Can Opening Day please just get here now?

Please?

#18 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:09 PM

However, the media is being ridiculous here.


One of the two best pitchers on the team came out and admitted and he let himself gain weight and pitched distracted while the team fell apart in September. He made $16 million dollars in 2011. Are people just not supposed to report this stuff?

CHB aside, I don't really see what's so ridiculous here. This stuff needs to be addressed.

#19 SoxScout


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:24 PM

One of the two best pitchers on the team came out and admitted and he let himself gain weight and pitched distracted while the team fell apart in September. He made $16 million dollars in 2011. Are people just not supposed to report this stuff?

CHB aside, I don't really see what's so ridiculous here. This stuff needs to be addressed.


How about the media does it's job during the season, first and foremost. They are so scared of being shunned and shutout that no one will report on anything, but as soon as the first bullet went flying the day after, they all lined up and said they knew all about every little issue. They are too busy mailing it in and throwing extreme hissy fits when Okajima wouldn't talk to them one afternoon. Edes is the only guy that has a pair covering the team, and even he admitted to not writing about some of the issues he knew about in season. The narcissism on the Sox beat is out of control.

#20 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:29 PM

How about the media does it's job during the season, first and foremost. They are so scared of being shunned and shutout that no one will report on anything, but as soon as the first bullet went flying the day after, they all lined up and said they knew all about every little issue. They are too busy mailing it in and throwing extreme hissy fits when Okajima wouldn't talk to them one afternoon. Edes is the only guy that has a pair covering the team, and even he admitted to not writing about some of the issues he knew about in season. The narcissism on the Sox beat is out of control.


This is a good point, but hearing about it after the fact still beats not hearing about it at all.

#21 Doctor G

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

I give credit to Beckett for not mentioning his ankle injury. The good guy bad guy scenario does not take into consideration that Beckett was injured at the beginning of the month. it also fails to acknowledge the fact that Josh Beckett was the man who led the pitching staff as the team dug out of its early deep hole.
One thing I hope these guys remember is the stern opposition the Yankees provided against the Rays in the last three games of the year, particularly the last one.

#22 Al Zarilla


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:39 PM

How much weight did Beckett gain? I mean, pitchers aren't exactly what you call your ripped athletes. CC Sab seems to let his weight fluctuate +/- 20 lbs across a month or two and he's extremely consistent. Maybe it was lack of enough workout time to stay strong though. Hopefully the slacker guys over-correct from the September collapse and get and stay in the best condition of their lives.

#23 judyb

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:43 PM

One of the two best pitchers on the team came out and admitted and he let himself gain weight and pitched distracted while the team fell apart in September. He made $16 million dollars in 2011. Are people just not supposed to report this stuff?

CHB aside, I don't really see what's so ridiculous here. This stuff needs to be addressed.

I'd be more likely to call him defiant if he'd refused to admit that he gained weight and was distracted, and if he didn't say that he was upset with himself for his lapses in judgement.

#24 RedOctober3829


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:44 PM

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about September. Hopefully, today was the last we hear of it. Its been discussed ad nausiem. Let's all move on to this year.

#25 Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:07 PM

I find it fascinating, this atavistic desire for Beckett to "fall on his sword" and engage in some sort of soul-baring public confessional. For what? Losing a few ball games that he probably should have won? Why do we, the masses, have this desire for our heroes to publicly cleanse themselves of all sin? What does this say about us?

#26 barbed wire Bob


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

I find it fascinating, this atavistic desire for Beckett to "fall on his sword" and engage in some sort of soul-baring public confessional. For what? Losing a few ball games that he probably should have won? Why do we, the masses, have this desire for our heroes to publicly cleanse themselves of all sin? What does this say about us?


That we are a bunch of hypocritical assholes?

#27 Doctor G

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:38 PM

Gronk comes back to play ineffectually on a bad ankle. Beckett comes back to pitch on a bad ankle with similar results.
There is a double standard at work here.
Why is personality a factor in judging commitment for the media?

#28 greek_gawd_of_walks


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:42 PM

This really doesn't matter any more.

#29 genivive

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:53 PM

I find it fascinating, this atavistic desire for Beckett to "fall on his sword" and engage in some sort of soul-baring public confessional. For what? Losing a few ball games that he probably should have won? Why do we, the masses, have this desire for our heroes to publicly cleanse themselves of all sin? What does this say about us?


Media needs something to whip up/ratings/clicks/whatever.

Edited by genivive, 19 February 2012 - 05:54 PM.


#30 scotian1


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:23 PM

It amazes me how poor defence, bad baserunning, lack of timely hitting seemed to get swept under the rug compared to chicken and beer.

#31 Rasputin


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:35 PM

Media needs something to whip up/ratings/clicks/whatever.


Make their jobs easier because they're spending a month in Florida and they'd really rather not have to work much.

#32 rembrat


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:41 PM

How much weight did Beckett gain? I mean, pitchers aren't exactly what you call your ripped athletes. CC Sab seems to let his weight fluctuate +/- 20 lbs across a month or two and he's extremely consistent. Maybe it was lack of enough workout time to stay strong though. Hopefully the slacker guys over-correct from the September collapse and get and stay in the best condition of their lives.


I think it is pretty common for veterans to gain weight throughout the season and for younger guys to lose weight as the season progress which I think happened to Buchholz a few years ago.

Now they wanted a commitment from Sabathia, whose performance fell off in the second half of last season. They weren't going to make it a contractual obligation, but more of a personal and professional commitment, and they weren't saying Sabathia's decline in effectiveness was necessarily a result of an increase in girth.


But there was no doubt that his ERA and his weight skyrocketed in tandem last season, and the Yankees aren't paying Sabathia by the ounce, but by the win.


http://espn.go.com/n...athia-less-more

#33 Pumpsie


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

The local mediots being the local mediots. At least we know THAT hasn't changed. And, yes, this was kinda written BEFORE the statements. They're going to try to make as much hay about "the collapse" as they can before they move on. Yawn.

#34 shepard50

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:48 PM

I find it fascinating, this atavistic desire for Beckett to "fall on his sword" and engage in some sort of soul-baring public confessional. For what? Losing a few ball games that he probably should have won? Why do we, the masses, have this desire for our heroes to publicly cleanse themselves of all sin? What does this say about us?


That we follow sports as a metaphor for heros both flawed and archetypical, and that we have a visceral reaction to these heros displaying what we see as Hubris?

Edited by shepard50, 21 February 2012 - 07:26 PM.


#35 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:58 PM

It amazes me how poor defence, bad baserunning, lack of timely hitting seemed to get swept under the rug compared to chicken and beer.


Obviously no one's saying chicken and beer are more important than poor play. But the chicken and beer create the impression, fairly or not, that some of the players are treating their job as a paid party, which makes the poor play harder to stomach. When you have a playoff berth in your grasp and you cough it up, you can't expect to get the benefit of the doubt.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 19 February 2012 - 09:07 PM.


#36 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:00 PM

The local mediots being the local mediots. At least we know THAT hasn't changed. And, yes, this was kinda written BEFORE the statements. They're going to try to make as much hay about "the collapse" as they can before they move on. Yawn.


Man I just don't get this attitude. I mean yea, at some point it's time to move on from this stuff and focus on 2012, but some of these guys haven't even spoken to Beckett since last September. You really expect them not to ask about it during the first few days of spring training?

Edit: Just to be clear I'm not looking for Beckett to get slammed or anything, but I just find it odd how many people are lashing out at the media for discussing it.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 19 February 2012 - 07:03 PM.


#37 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:02 PM

Gronk comes back to play ineffectually on a bad ankle. Beckett comes back to pitch on a bad ankle with similar results.
There is a double standard at work here.
Why is personality a factor in judging commitment for the media?


Um...because one of them has admitted to pigging out, being distracted, gaining weight, and not paying attention during games while his teammates were out there playing, and the other one did no such thing, got injured in the semi-final game and tried to play through a bad wheel in the title game?

I mean, I can't be the only one who sees a slight difference there.

Like it or not these guys are going to be asked about this every day until they DON'T choke away an enormous lead for a playoff spot in a month's time. They've lost all benefit of the doubt from now on and that's too damn bad if they don't like it. They played like shit, they choked, they cost themselves an enormous amount of respect and leeway. They cost the best manager in team history his job and possibly his reputation. They deserve criticism for that. Lots of it. Maybe next time they won't be dicking around in the clubhouse between innings and throwing up all over themselves in the key moments of the season.

#38 Dogman2


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:32 PM

Um...because one of them has admitted to pigging out, being distracted, gaining weight, and not paying attention during games while his teammates were out there playing, and the other one did no such thing, got injured in the semi-final game and tried to play through a bad wheel in the title game?

I mean, I can't be the only one who sees a slight difference there.

Like it or not these guys are going to be asked about this every day until they DON'T choke away an enormous lead for a playoff spot in a month's time. They've lost all benefit of the doubt from now on and that's too damn bad if they don't like it. They played like shit, they choked, they cost themselves an enormous amount of respect and leeway. They cost the best manager in team history his job and possibly his reputation. They deserve criticism for that. Lots of it. Maybe next time they won't be dicking around in the clubhouse between innings and throwing up all over themselves in the key moments of the season.


Have no fear, Booby V. Will hand out puke bags in spring training. The team should be good for 107 wins at the minimum.

#39 Rasputin


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:46 PM

Have no fear, Booby V. Will hand out puke bags in spring training. The team should be good for 107 wins at the minimum.


117 or bust.

#40 Buzzkill Pauley


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Posted 19 February 2012 - 11:51 PM

This really doesn't matter any more.


That is where I stand, too. Time for the 2012 team to make its own destination.

#41 TheoShmeo


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:12 AM

I find it fascinating, this atavistic desire for Beckett to "fall on his sword" and engage in some sort of soul-baring public confessional. For what? Losing a few ball games that he probably should have won? Why do we, the masses, have this desire for our heroes to publicly cleanse themselves of all sin? What does this say about us?

I don't think the masses really need this. Most people seem to have continuing curiousity about what the hell happened last year. Like any massive, once in a life time train wreck, it would nice to understand the cause.

As noted above, the media wants contrition because it's a good story, and there's more than just a bit of rightheous indignation in some of them (I'm looking at you, Danny boy).

But to the extent that some of us do want some public cleansing, I think it's understandable, too. We invest a shit ton into this team, both in time/energy and money. We all know how much time we spend on all things Red Sox, and going to Fenway costs a lot, as does buying the merchandise and subscribing to NESN. The September Red Sox appeared to be disinterested and out of shape (or at least some of them). Now that may be nonsense, and they may have been just as unfocused in years in which they won, but the appearances were what they were and the results were unthinkable. As a result, I don't think it says anything particularly surprising that some of us want to hear some sorrys.

How Beckett and Lester handle the media matters little to me. I want to see those guys, and everyone else who underperformed in September, looking in shape and singularly focused on having a good year. In a perfect world, I'd like to see them as a little less dour, and with a little more realization that they are getting paid millions to live the dream of many of their fans, but I'll settle for in shape and focused.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 20 February 2012 - 07:13 AM.


#42 twothousandone

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:15 AM

Any bets on who will decide "I never want to be a part of anything like that ever again. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it never again happens to a team I am on" and thus show up in camp in the best shape of their lives? I'm thinking Youkilis.

#43 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

Any bets on who will decide "I never want to be a part of anything like that ever again. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it never again happens to a team I am on" and thus show up in camp in the best shape of their lives? I'm thinking Youkilis.


Fragile, doughy-shaped always-angry Youkilis? I think not.

#44 Buzzkill Pauley


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:13 PM

Any bets on who will decide "I never want to be a part of anything like that ever again. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it never again happens to a team I am on" and thus show up in camp in the best shape of their lives? I'm thinking Youkilis.

Fragile, doughy-shaped always-angry Youkilis? I think not.


No, I think he means just-got-engaged, sports-hernia-surgery-recovering Youkilis? I think not, also.

#45 reggiecleveland


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:39 PM

I think it is pretty common for veterans to gain weight throughout the season and for younger guys to lose weight as the season progress which I think happened to Buchholz a few years ago.



http://espn.go.com/n...athia-less-more


Well if they don't workout, yeah.
JFB (f=fat) described a workout that was power centered, and distaste of cardio. Time on the stair master should keep weight off, when it is your job.

#46 reggiecleveland


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:44 PM

He means "there is corporations"


nice line

#47 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:13 PM

So far Beckett has shown up early, reportedly in great shape throwing the ball free and easy, Lester was there early also in great shape.... Bucholz came a couple days later , but was still early to camp. They all have said the right things and more importantly are doing the right things.

Also I'll add, Gonzo was there early looking to take on a leadership role as was Salty, Hell even more importantly Bobby Jenks showed up early and much thinner than last season.

What more do these guys need to do? Who is the one not at ST that you want there? Who are the ones acting like nothings changed ,nothing was done wrong and there's nothing to prove? What can they do until games start that they aren't doing...

I agree blame Lackey...... Thats whats missing

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM.


#48 rembrat


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:45 PM

What's funny is that Beckett always shows up early to ST.

I'd rather things remain status quo then to have these guys try to ramp up their cardio work and end up pulling a Victor Martinez. What has to be addressed is sticking to the in-season workouts.

#49 EastCoasterOutWest


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:14 AM

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about September. Hopefully, today was the last we hear of it. Its been discussed ad nausiem. Let's all move on to this year.


This horse will be ridden until its bones are picked clean during many a broadcast this season, especially if they are leading the division or wild card come September.

Tim McCarver must be salivating at the thought of it.

#50 rembrat


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 01:24 PM

Seriously, Micheal Kay can finally update his talking points.