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#1 Three10toLeft

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:08 AM

I'm not sure if many people here have much experience with DSLR's or Hybrid cameras, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

I just purchased a Panasonic GF 3 from Crutchfield.com. For $540 I got the camera and two lenses, but now I'm beginning to wonder if this was the right choice.

I really like that it's not as bulky as a DSLR, especially if I take it with me on a trip, I can just toss it in the bag with my iPad etc. But I'm wondering if I am sacrificing a lot on the photo quality side by going for the slimmer device. I'm considering returning it and purchasing a Canon Rebel Eos T3, which is just an entry level DSLR. Would there be any benefits in doing so?

Now, this is just a new hobby. I definitely want to get good at taking pictures/photography, but I don't have any intentions of it being anything more than that. And before it's said... I understand the camera is just a tool, it's the person behind the camera that determines whether the pictures are any good.

Any input from someone with knowledge in this area would be appreciated.

Edited by Three10toLeft, 16 February 2012 - 12:14 AM.


#2 OttoC


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:00 AM

There is more than one serious photographer on this board but I'll take a shot at answering your question.

Partly, a lot depends on what you want to do with your photographs. Do you plan on making prints or just showing them electronically? If you are just taking electronic snapshots, you don't need high-end equipment. If you want to do fine art prints, then you probably need to move up. Partly, it depends on what you want to photograph. If you want to photograph birds, you need a long telephoto lens/ If you want to do fast moving sports, you need a camera and lens that can quickly focus automatically, that has little shutter lag, and that can shoot several frames per second.

If you give us more specifics on what you plan to photograph, I'm sure we can give you more help.

#3 CheapSeats

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:08 AM

I think this all depends on what you want to use it for. The GF3 has some pitfalls, but if they are things you don't care about, then you've picked a good camera.

Personally I don't like the 4/3 system. The lens selection isn't great, and there isn't a big used market to pick from. The good thing about Canon and Nikon is that expensive lenses stay expensive even in the used market. I think 4/3 lenses will get there, but they're not there yet.

This being said, the camera itself is going to take a good picture (from a completely technical standpoint) and offers all the settings you would get with a DSLR in the same price range.

If you really want a DSLR I would ask what -specifically- you want from a camera.


Otto probably said a lot of this a bit better.

#4 OttoC


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:03 AM

Just in case you don't know what CheapSeats means by a 4/3 system, that is the ratio of width to height of the sensor and resulting picture. DSLRs are based on 35mm film cameras and their aspect ration is 3 to 2. The 4 to 3 ratio does ahve THE advantage of producing pictures that fit in standard mats and frames.

What he also said about Canon and Nikon lenses holding value is true. I bought a used Nikon 500mm telephoto lens several years ago and sold it a couple of years ago for the same price I paid for it. I will add that photography can be a very expensive hobby. The camera bodies, not so much, unless you are at the high end. Nikon recently announced a D4 body that is going for about $6K. And speaking of Nikon, they just announced a new point-and-shoot that has a built-in 42x zoom lens (angle of view equivalent to approximately 24mm to 1,000mm in 35mm format). The 16.1 megapixel Coolpix P510 lists for around $430.

#5 Three10toLeft

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:20 AM

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I don't really plan on taking any bird shots, so I don't think a telephoto lens would be necessary. I'd like to take candid shots, people watching downtown, along with some shots of architecture/landscape photos. Things like that. Along with photos of sporting events, in particular, our minor league baseball team.

It seems from what I've read, a DSLR might be better if I plan on using it at sporting events, considering their would be less shutter lag.Edit: In regards to making prints, I hadn't really thought about it before. But I imagine the more and more I shoot, I probably would want to make some, but the majority of my photographs will be shared/seen electronically.

Edited by Three10toLeft, 16 February 2012 - 09:38 AM.


#6 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:30 AM

Have you researched the Nikon D3100 (or something similar) yet?

#7 Three10toLeft

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:42 AM

Have you researched the Nikon D3100 (or something similar) yet?


Yep, my next question was going to be Canon Rebel Eos T3 vs. Nikon D3100. The D3100 is almost $600 whereas the Canon is a little over $500 and would be an even swap if I returned the GF3 for it.

Is the Nikon considerably better given the price difference? Albeit the price difference is rather small.

#8 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:18 AM

Nikon vs. Canon is mostly a Coke vs. Pepsi thing.

This site is pretty awesome:

http://snapsort.com/...-vs-Nikon_D3100

So, based on that, yes, you're likely getting $100 more camera. I only have experience with the D3000, and the D5100; none with Canon models.

#9 sittingstill

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:54 AM

I really like that it's not as bulky as a DSLR, especially if I take it with me on a trip, I can just toss it in the bag with my iPad etc.

As you consider your options, don't overlook this point. I'm amazed by the number of folks who see my camera and chat with me, and it comes out in the course of the conversation that they have similar equipment but don't use it because it's too much of a pain to carry it. A better camera won't do you much good in the situations you describe (other than sports) if you opt out of taking it with you too often. As far as sports go, in that general price range, I'm not sure whether the increase in focus speed/shutter lag in moving to a DSLR will outweigh the extra bulk. (I used to shoot with an earlier Lumix and found out the hard way that good sports shooting calls for money. Lots of money.) Just something to think about.

#10 amh03


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:01 AM

Excellent point by Kelly! If the camera feels good in your hands, and you're comfortable carrying it, you'll take more pics.

I fall into that odd group that likes to have the big camera around most of the time. But most of my family & friends rely almost exclusively now on their phones. Ease of use is a really big bonus...

#11 OttoC


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:23 PM

As someone remarked:

Nikon vs. Canon is mostly a Coke vs. Pepsi thing.


While that is true to a large extent, there generally is an underlying reason. It depends which you started with and how much you have invested in lenses. If you have spent several thousand dollars in one line, it isn't easy to just switch to comparable items in the other line. You'll have to sell used equipment, so if you aren't willing to buy used equipment, you'll be out more money.

My talking about several thousand dollars is not hyperbole. I want the medium format Nikon D4 DSLR body that is just coming out. That lists for $5999.95. I also want Nikon's 400mm f/2.8 lens. That lists for $8999.00. $15K total. Should I decide to switch to Canon and get their top-of-the-line DSLR body, that lists for $7650.00 and their 400mm f/2.8 lens lists for 11499.00, or more than $19K. Now I just have to buy a good lottery ticket.

If you are just starting out, do it inexpensively until you figure out just what you need.

#12 CheapSeats

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

I want the medium format Nikon D4 DSLR body that is just coming out.


Not to thread highjack, and if I'm wrong I'll fully admit it, but: I believe that the D4 is a Full Frame sensor which is the digital way of saying the same size as 35mm film. If you wanted digital medium format you would have to upgrade to a Hasselblad or Phase One (in which case several thousand becomes $40,000). You could go with the D800 which has a similar amount of megapixels to the high-end medium format cameras, but is lacking that sexy MF DoF.

#13 Batman Likes The Sox

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:49 PM

I'd gotten some good advice on this topic in the Blind Leading the Stupid thread on camera recommendations, but I thought I'd post my thoughts here instead so it can address the questions raised by Three10.

I was considering the Nikon D3100, Canon T2i, Nikon 1 J1, and the Sony NEX-C3. They were all in the same price range so that wasn't really a concern.

Like Three10 I didn't have a lot of "high-quality camera" experience, so I was going into this sort of blind. The other thread was really helpful as was a friend of mine with a lot of photography experience.

After checking them all out I decided that portability really mattered to me. With a one-year old to tow around already, and since this was just a hobby, I wanted something that I'd be more likely to carry around more often. So I went with the Sony NEX-C3 (with the 18-55 lens). It felt in hand like it was almost a third of the size of the DSLRs.

It's been great. The pictures are much better obviously than I'd been getting with my point and shoot or my iPhone. I've still got my iPhone at all times for spontaneous picture-taking, but a few times a week when I'm more interested in getting a better shot, I can grab the C3, put it in my coat pocket, and go. If I had to bring a bag with me or sling it around my neck, the frequency of me using the camera would probably decrease to a few times a month at best.

That portability made up for the fact that I would have (at least for now, and possibly forever) more limited lens options. But I can deal with that since I'll probably never end up with more than 3 lenses or so, and since this is still just a hobby.

Another thing about the C3 that is a bit annoying (as someone noted in the other thread that it would be) is the fact that I'm composing on a screen rather than a viewfinder. There are times when my one-year old is moving about the room very quickly and the screen can't keep up with the frequency of my shots (because it's processing the image it just took I think), so I'm just sort of taking a bunch of pictures and hoping for the best. But I'm excited enough about how quickly I can take a ton of shots that I don't care if I occasionally misframe a shot.

So in summary, the main pros that make me happy with the C3 are:
-Portability
-Speed of successive shots
-Simple usability for camera novices like my wife and I

And eventually, if I love taking pictures enough to want to upgrade to an actual DSLR, I could always do that at the end of my C3's life cycle, also known as when my son breaks it.

#14 OttoC


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:02 PM

Not to thread highjack, and if I'm wrong I'll fully admit it, but: I believe that the D4 is a Full Frame sensor which is the digital way of saying the same size as 35mm film. If you wanted digital medium format you would have to upgrade to a Hasselblad or Phase One (in which case several thousand becomes $40,000). You could go with the D800 which has a similar amount of megapixels to the high-end medium format cameras, but is lacking that sexy MF DoF.


I got it confused with Nikon's new D800, which is a 36.3 megapixel full-frame camera that is said to approach medium format cameras in resolution. It is believed that a 36MP version of the D4 will be forthcoming. Thanks for catching that.

The D800 is considerably less expensive, listing at $2999.00, so I guess that's the one I want (except that the ISO of the D4 goes up to 204,800 while the D800 only goes to 25,600).

#15 Three10toLeft

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:42 PM

Thanks for the input guys.

I guess it's going to come down to personal preference. I went to the store and played with the D3100 for a little bit. The guy at Best Buy was trying to convince me to return the GF3, regardless of if I purchased a new camera from Best Buy or not. He was also trying to convince me to get the Nikon D5100 if I was going to the full DSLR route.

I'm a single guy, so the portability factor of the GF3 is nice, but not as much of a game changer as I was thinking it would be. Sure I can throw it in a coat pocket, but that's about it. With the GF3 or a DSLR, I am going to have to throw it in a bag of some sort if I plan on keeping them with me for any extended period of time. I was looking at some STM bags that aren't too big, something that I could easily keep the camera and iPad in.

After playing around with the D3100 and D5100, I must say I really prefer the viewfinder over the LCD display, plus I am not completely in love with the touchscreen menu on the GF3. The more I research it, the more I find myself leaning towards returning the GF3 and getting a Nikon DSLR. Trying to determine if I really want to go all in and pay the $750 price tag for the 5100 at Crutchfield.

#16 OttoC


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:19 PM

My Nikon D300S (DSLR) has both a viewfinder and an LCD screen that can be used to compose a picture. The video can only been done through the LCD view. The big drawback is I cannot see anything on the LCD screen in bright sunlight.When I'm out on a boat chasing whales and try to videotape them, I end up pointing the camera in what I hope is the right direction (up/down/left/right). This is particularly difficult when there is a telephoto lens on the camera because the angle of view is very narrow. There are various shades made to fit over LCD screens but I never have had an opportunity to try them to see how well they work.

One advantage some DSLRs have is they can be tethered to a computer and the view will be the same as the LCD screen, only much larger. This is useful if you want to to extreme close-ups of three dimensional objects where you have very shallow depth of field. If the camera is mounted solidly, you can take several shots focusing at different parts of the object, then use software to blend the in=focus parts together.

Another aspect you need to bear in mind, especially if you get serious about taking pictures, is software. You may get some software with a camera but it won't match Adobe Photoshop or Adobe Lightroom in capabilities. These are not inexpensive pieces of software. There is a free program called GIMP that was originally developed for Linux/Unix but there are third-party installers written for Windows and Macintosh operating systems. I have never used it so I cannot tell you how it compares to the software I use.

You might also find yourself taking a lot of pictures (I took 14,000 pictures during the first year I switched from 35mm film to a DSLR). This can fill up hard drives. Your best bet is to add a second hard drive to your system to store the pictures and then add external USB hard drives to back up your pictures. I have nine external drives that I hook up as needed.

#17 Three10toLeft

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:03 PM

Good stuff, thanks Otto.

I currently have a 2 TB My Book hooked up to my Mac, that's where I dump all my media files. That should suffice for the immediate future, I would imagine. I also have read great reviews for Pixelmator, for OS X. It's a $30 photo editing application that was named the top app in the Mac app store last year. The reviews seem to point out that it's definitely no photoshop, but it does an incredible job at the that price point. I figure that will also suffice for the immediate future, since this first year or two will be nothing but a learning experience.

#18 amh03


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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:20 PM

I'm curious...why Nikon over Canon?

#19 CheapSeats

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:07 AM

I'm curious...why Nikon over Canon?


I think this is a Pepsi vs. Coke or Mac vs PC argument, for the most part. I work somewhere that requires me to have knowledge of, and service both Nikons and Canons, and the differences in specs are slight at best. You really need to get under the hood to see the real differences, and even then it's a matter of preference. If you look at both camera lines over the past 10 years or so they've basically played games of leapfrog. Right now, with Nikon's D4 and D800 they are on top, but when Canon announces their 5d Mark III they'll probably take the MP crown.

Some differences: Until recently Nikon focused more on high ISO performance instead of megapixels. (Nikon's recently announced D4 has 16mp, while Canon's announced-but-slow-to-come-out 1dx has 18mp). Nikon's autofocus system is generally accepted as better, with only the highest-end, newest Canon's coming close to the amount of AF points as the Nikon's. I recently read a comment (maybe from Rod Mar?) about how the Superbowl had a surprising number of dark lenses compared to last year (Canon's are generally off-white, Nikons tend to be black) so something in the Canon line may be indicating a downturn, though I don't quite know what.

Some of the best advice I've ever received is to go with the brand that the people around you are using. Group-sourcing lenses and equipment takes the load off.

A perfect example of all this is Otto vs. myself. Given the opportunity, 9 times out of 10 I'll shoot Canon (right now 7d and 5dMkII), but I suspect Otto is the opposite, and would shoot a D800 or D4.


Damn, love a good camera discussion. (spirited, but nice, it's rare in most photography forums).

#20 saintnick912


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Posted 17 February 2012 - 08:06 AM

Some of the best advice I've ever received is to go with the brand that the people around you are using. Group-sourcing lenses and equipment takes the load off.


This was my motivation in going with Nikon. Like you said, there are pluses and minuses to both systems right now, and 4 of the 5 people I could mooch equipment/advice from when I was starting out were on Nikon, so it was an easy choice for me. Of course I wound up flipping my D40 about 6 weeks after buying it when I was in a car with 3 of those people and they were talking about how they could never live without their D200.

#21 OttoC


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Posted 17 February 2012 - 08:39 AM

As for me,

...Some of the best advice I've ever received is to go with the brand that the people around you are using. Group-sourcing lenses and equipment takes the load off.

A perfect example of all this is Otto vs. myself. Given the opportunity, 9 times out of 10 I'll shoot Canon (right now 7d and 5dMkII), but I suspect Otto is the opposite, and would shoot a D800 or D4...


As you suggest, lenses and other equipment are a big factor. You're in a situation where you can group-source such things while I am an individual who has to buy them. I started with Nikon a long time ago with a Nikon F that was pre-through-the-lens-metering. When I could afford to, I added lenses to meet my requirements. I was already doing digital work, scanning my own slides when Nikon first came out with a DSLR, so it wasn't a problem to switch from film to digital. In fact, since I no longer had to buy film and pay for processing, the switch to digital saved me money and time--I didn't have to scan slides any longer and the 14,000+ pictures I took the first year I used a DSLR would have run about $6,000 for film. The side benefit was I learned how to be a photographer because I got instantaneous feedback with a digital camera and I didn't have to worry about wasting film. To make a long story, shorter, I've been using Nikon equipment for nearly 50 years: I'm used to the equipment--feel and operation; I have lenses that won't work on Canon bodies. I'm not saying one choice is better than the other--I don't have experience with Canon; I'm just saying once you make the choice, it generally isn't easy to switch sides. My first Nikon was an accidental acquisition; I accepted the camera in lieu of cash repayment for a personal loan.

And as an aside, Nikon's recent work on ISO is the result of them falling behind Canon in that area. For those reading who aren't that familiar with cameras, there are three things that control the amount of light reaching the sensor (or film): shutter speed, aperture (lens opening or f-stop), and ISO (once called film speed). Faster shutter speed is used to stop action and overcome camera shake but that reduces the amount of light reaching the sensor, which requires either opening up the aperture or using higher ISO. When you open the aperture wider, you reduce the depth-of-field, narrowing the space which is in focus. You can increase the ISO to compensate but as you do that, that amount of noise (especially in ark areas) increases. The other side of this is when there is too much light, you (nowadays, the camera) increase the shutter speed, narrow the aperture, or reduce the ISO. The drawback to reducing the aperture opening is that you increase to DOF, which may not be desirable for the type of photograph you are taking (say a portrait, where you want to keep the background out of focus). In days of film, you had to change the film to change the ISO (you could push the film speed in processing); today it is done electronically. There is also a limitation on how wide you can open the aperture for a given lens, which is one thing that drives up the cost of some lenses.

As a practical example, I have a 80-400mm zoom lens that is rated at f/5.6 aperture at the long end. Nikon also makes a 400mm f/2.8 lens (that costs about fives times as much). If I put the zoom lens on my camera with THE ISO set to 200, the light conditions might be such that the metering system tells me I can only shoot at 1/400 second at f/5.6; however, if I had the expensive version, I could shoot at 1/1600 second at f/5.6. This makes a big difference if you are trying to captrue birds in flight while bouncing around on a boat 20 to 30 miles out in the Gulf of Maine. In some situations, say indoors, you can add your own light.

#22 Three10toLeft

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:59 PM

I guess to wrap up my original question... I just purchased a D5100 through Crutchfield. It comes with a 18-55mm kit lens, but I also added a 35 mm lens to the cart for $200. Far more than what I originally wanted to spend, but what can ya do? I'm pretty excited about getting this camera in my hands and seeing what kind of shots I can take with it.

#23 OttoC


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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:17 PM

Congratulations on your new camera. One thing you need to be aware of are the file types the D5100 renders: NEF (RAW) and JPEG. JPEG uses a lossy compression algorithm to reduce file size. A simplistic way of looking at this is the algorithm discards color information. For example, the eye cannot distinguish between colors that are nearly identical (say, R/G/B values of 64/128/200 and 64/128/201), so it would combine those two colors. In itself, that is no problem, but every time you open a JPEG image, manipulate it, then re-save it, it gets re-compressed and more data is lost. The more you compress THE image, the rougher the edges will be (pixelation). The moral is that you should make a duplicate of the original image and work on that.

Alternatively, you can use the NEF format, which is a 14-bit format and has more color information. The downsides of this are file size and the need for software that can read NEF format files. I shoot everything in NEF format and work from there. As I use Photoshop for a lot of my work, I've developed an action to resize image for the web, convert and save them for the web.

If you have questions, ask.

#24 ypioca

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:57 PM

That 35mm 1.8 is a great purchase. I tried really hard to find that one in my US trip, but it was right after the big Japanese earthquake last year, which affected the Nikon factory, so no US stores had it in stock.

I have the D3100 with the same kit lens, plus a 50mm f1.4 manual focus lens, and I barely ever use the 18-55. Even with the pain in the ass of manual focus, it simply takes fantastic shots (for the price I paid, $100 used). I hate using flash, so, in low-lighting, it's the only way to go.

Having no zoom also helps you grow into taking better shots - thinking about perspective, and not just slapping on the Intelligent Auto and snapping shots at will. My f1.4 only works in Manual Mode, so I had to learn on the fly how to use aperture, shutter, ISO, white balance and just about eveything else. I'm very glad that happened - now I'm a much better photographer than 6 months ago.

#25 OttoC


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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:09 AM

While ypioca is right about learning to use f-stops and shutter speed rather than just setting the camera on automatic mode, I don't see any reason you can't do that with a zoom lens. One thing you need to learn as a photographer is framing your shots and that can be done with a zoom lens. While have a fixed-focal-length lens makes you think about it, there are times when you simply cannot get into the right position to do so--you can't step in the middle of a busy street; you are physically prevented from getting into the right position. You could have lenses of different focal lengths but that means having to carry around more equipment and having to change lenses on-the-fly and also having to pay for them.

That said, I don't think the 18-55mm zoom gives you enough latitude. My walking around lens is an 18-200mm zoom, which gives me wide-angle to telephoto capabilities. However, because I do a lot of nature photography is tend to use my 300mm f/2.8 lens (birds) or 105mm f/2.8 macro lens (flowers, butterflies, dragonflies). Once you figure out your main area(s) of photography, you can figure out which lenses you need. I bought a used 500mm manual focus lens that was great for Ospreys on their nesting platform or water fowl floating past but impossible to use to track flying seabirds while bouncing around on a boat 25 miles out in the Gulf of Maine. I sold it to help pay for the fast auto-focusing 300mm lens and a 1.7x teleconverter. When I have to fly to my destination, I usually just take my zoom lens. If I know that I'll need a long lens once I'm there, I may be able to rent it.

#26 ypioca

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 01:24 PM

While ypioca is right about learning to use f-stops and shutter speed rather than just setting the camera on automatic mode, I don't see any reason you can't do that with a zoom lens. One thing you need to learn as a photographer is framing your shots and that can be done with a zoom lens. While have a fixed-focal-length lens makes you think about it, there are times when you simply cannot get into the right position to do so--you can't step in the middle of a busy street; you are physically prevented from getting into the right position. You could have lenses of different focal lengths but that means having to carry around more equipment and having to change lenses on-the-fly and also having to pay for them.

That said, I don't think the 18-55mm zoom gives you enough latitude. My walking around lens is an 18-200mm zoom, which gives me wide-angle to telephoto capabilities. However, because I do a lot of nature photography is tend to use my 300mm f/2.8 lens (birds) or 105mm f/2.8 macro lens (flowers, butterflies, dragonflies). Once you figure out your main area(s) of photography, you can figure out which lenses you need. I bought a used 500mm manual focus lens that was great for Ospreys on their nesting platform or water fowl floating past but impossible to use to track flying seabirds while bouncing around on a boat 25 miles out in the Gulf of Maine. I sold it to help pay for the fast auto-focusing 300mm lens and a 1.7x teleconverter. When I have to fly to my destination, I usually just take my zoom lens. If I know that I'll need a long lens once I'm there, I may be able to rent it.


The aspect of my f1.4 that made me get better was mostly the fact it only works on M mode, so I had to learn everything, or the lens would be useless. I agree that sometimes you just don't have the physical space to use it, and then, you just have to go with the kit. I'm probably off on the zoom thing, it's just that the f1.4, just as the 35mm f1.8, is a much superior option to the kit, in most situations.

I also have a 70-300 cheap Sigma macro, and barely use it. I just bought it because I though, "well, I'm gonna need it too...". The only day I really used it is when I went to the zoo. Renting might have been a better option.




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