Jump to content


Yo! You're not logged in. Why am I seeing this ad?

SOSH

OK we're back on our main server.  It was taking a super long time to move *everything* back just to save a day's worth of messages.  I've been at this all day now and need to get back to my real job so.,... sorry.  Working on a better plan in case this happens again.  nip

Photo

Blaming Bobby: The 2012 Manager Thread


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
1275 replies to this topic

#1151 Red(s)HawksFan

  • 4237 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:40 PM

Is it Bogar Time?

Maybe Gene Lamont is still waiting by the phone for them to let him know if he got the job. :rolleyes:

#1152 Eric Van


  • Kid-tested, mother-approved


  • 10990 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:41 PM

I started out as a Bobby V agnostic, and to a lesser extent remain one. I'm still waiting for any evidence that he has any in-game managing skill whatsoever, but it's a SSS. He had a reputation for it, and he has himself second-guessed some of his awful decisions, so there's reason to believe he's better than what he's shown so far, just like, say, Youkilis is.

I will note this, however: the no-out intentional walk is an indefensible, awful move. It's like sacrificing with your #2 hitter in the first inning against a AAA callup, after the leadoff hitter has hammered the first pitch on a line to CF.

I do believe that Terry Francona never issued a no-out IBB in his 7 years as a manager. I mean, I used to notice the 1-out IBBs (usually a bad move) and debate them with myself, so I think if he ever issued one with no outs, I'd remember.

Bobby V did it twice in an inning this afternoon.

I mean, when you make a traditional-baseball sort of move and Tim MCarver knows it's wrong, you're either a complete idiot or you're way, way off your game.

#1153 amh03


  • Tippi Hedren


  • 4263 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:41 PM

You really seriously think he should be fired because he showed emotion as his team imploded, yet again? Seriously?

That's ridiculous.

Will you please re-read what I wrote...I'm saying he lacked emotion...

#1154 someoneanywhere

  • 3056 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:44 PM

A manager can't just throw up his hands, Pumps. He needs to find a solution that works somehow. You imply that he has no recourse and I disagree with that. The status quo is unacceptable. It's his fucking job to figure this mess out.

Frankly it doesnt really matter; he'll be fired by May 15 if this shit doesn't get better, fair or not. Managers are much easier to dump than players and right now the results are hideous.


Brother -- and I'm being serious here, not hyperbolic -- he'll be lucky if he lasts another two weeks. There are cultural problems here, deep ones; the grinding is gone, replaced by a softness more reminiscent of the old Rays teams and the Os teams of recent vintage.

#1155 TheGoldenGreek33

  • 1859 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:47 PM

Bard would be closing and only allowed to pitch in the 9th. How would that help the pen? Padilla and Albers blew it in the 7th!

Neither had a blown save. ACE is credited with that. Granted, Padilla was the goat today. But had Bard been in the pen, he would have been who Bobby V would have went to in the 8th in a one-run game (his best reliever). And I don't have a crystal ball, but things could have been a lot different.

But, "TRUST", right Aceves?

Edited by TheGoldenGreek33, 21 April 2012 - 07:48 PM.


#1156 rembrat


  • SoSH Member


  • 20402 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:48 PM

Because that worked so well with Youk?


0-5 since those comments. I would not be surprised if he's already lost the clubhouse.

#1157 amh03


  • Tippi Hedren


  • 4263 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:49 PM

0-5 since those comments. I would not be surprised if he's already lost the clubhouse.

He's definitely lost them. I watched them pass right by him in the dugout after today's loss...not a single player even looked at him as they walked by...

#1158 scotian1

  • 4612 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

0-5 since those comments. I would not be surprised if he's already lost the clubhouse.

Especially after both his GM and second baseman undercut him with their remarks.

#1159 Zupcic Fan


  • loves 8 inch long meat


  • 2579 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

I have disliked Bobby Valentine for a very long time. All anyone who seems to know him ever talks about is his self promotion, his arrogance, etc. I can't even get emotional about this team and these silly losses because he annoys me so much.
Still, I think he is a good baseball mind, I just can't stand him, and i have no complaints with the decisions he has made with this truly mediocre bunch of players, at best. His relief pitcher decisions seem irrelevant to me given the fact that they all stink. It's a poor guy who has to make a choice between Albers and a tired Bard to face Evan Longoria. Talk about lose/lose.

However, just a quick question. It seems that very few members of this team, from the starters to the subs, etc are performing at or above their expected level, their previous levels, etc. To what degree can a manager be blamed for that, and how many games in does that start to have relevance. All of them just seem to be to be worse than usual. No pitcher, hitter, fielder, etc with the excaption of ortiz has done anything to show any kind of improvement over past performance after a few months with the great genius. Does that mean anything?
I have no idea. Just wonder what people think.

Edited by Zupcic Fan, 21 April 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#1160 scotian1

  • 4612 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:53 PM

He's definitely lost them. I watched them pass right by him in the dugout after today's loss...not a single player even looked at him as they walked by...


These players forget who was responsible for last September that got their favourite manager fired. They are the problem but their sense of entitlement is too great to accept responsibility.

#1161 Reverend


  • needs sharper knives


  • 19348 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:56 PM

I'm gonna take one more stab at this...

This is a thread for discussing Bobby Valentine and his performance. The quality of the team he has been given is not terribly relevant toward a discussion of his performance.

Those of us who are criticizing Bobby V are not claiming that this team would be off to a 10-4 start without him. But, we feel it is relevant to discuss the positive and negative moves of the manager. I would love to see this thread fleshed out with people who think Bobby V is a good manager pointing out things that he has done or is doing well. It would make this a far more interesting discussion. Responding to criticisms of Bobby V's decision making with, "Well, the team sucks anyway..." is not constructive. It does not add to the discussion. The team might suck anyways but that isn't what this thread is about and it isn't germane to a discussion of Bobby V being the worst manager ever, the best manager ever, or something in between.

So, please, if you want to defend Bobby V's performance, defend his performance. That would be great. Trashing the roster construction does not constitute defending the performance of Bobby Valentine.


I also don't understand why this is so difficult.

Let's start with the premise that BV's affect on the record is marginal. Fine. Can we assess how marginal, i.e. what the impact actually is? Is it positive or negative? How positive or negative?

That would be worthwhile--or maybe we ascertain it's basically zero. That would be interesting too.

But I agree very much with JakeRae that shouting "PITCHING QUALITY MATTERS MORE THAN THE MANAGERIAL DECISIONS" isn't very interesting. Granted, claiming that managerial decisions are the primary causal factor in determining the team record is silly as well. The thing is, I don't think anyone is actually saying that, and that fight comes at the expense of having what could be a very instructive conversation about how much impact a manager actually has, which is unfortunate. To me anyway.

#1162 amh03


  • Tippi Hedren


  • 4263 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:58 PM

These players forget who was responsible for last September that got their favourite manager fired. They are the problem but their sense of entitlement is too great to accept responsibility.

You're right!

#1163 86spike


  • Currently enjoying "Arli$$"


  • 21721 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:58 PM

He's definitely lost them. I watched them pass right by him in the dugout after today's loss...not a single player even looked at him as they walked by...


Maybe they didn't want to make eye contact with their boss after they shit all over themselves on national TV because they were embarrassed, not because they don't like him.

#1164 The Gray Eagle


  • SoSH Member


  • 8909 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, if the players tune out two radically different managers in the space of two months, then the problem isn't the managers, it's the players. Do they have any mirrors in the home clubhouse at Fenway?

#1165 Al Zarilla


  • SoSH Member


  • 18704 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:59 PM

He's definitely lost them. I watched them pass right by him in the dugout after today's loss...not a single player even looked at him as they walked by...

Couldn't it have been that they (the players) were shellshocked? Besides, what could any of them say to him anyway anyway. Can't believe I'm sort of defending the guy.

Now, the front office is in a bind, or a no-win situation. If they were to do something hasty, like get rid of him, they'd be open to a bunch of I told you so(s). The guy had a caustic, big mouth rep, so what did you expect from him? If they got rid of him, who do they bring in, and what if the disasters continue?

#1166 Doctor G

  • 1834 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 07:59 PM

At this point it is the responsibility of the GM to attempt to take some heat off the manager. If Cherington isn't up to making a statement about re-evaluating the set-up of the bullpen, he is not doing his job.
To let all the heat fall on Valentine is gutless whether Cherington wanted him or not.

I'm not advocating the dreaded vote of confidence. I'm just saying he needs to show some leadership on the roster construction issues.

Edited by Doctor G, 21 April 2012 - 08:05 PM.


#1167 glennhoffmania


  • peaks prematurely


  • 8381596 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:01 PM

If Tito, or anyone else, had THIS team, his results would be largely the same. No one can get Crawford or Ellsbury (or anyone of the other injured) out there right now. No one can make Punto or Repko really good options. Cody Ross will play like Cody Ross. Youkilis will continue getting older. Etc. Etc. No flaw.


This is bullshit. Can you honestly look at this roster and say they have the talent level of a below. 300 team? I mean, I get that they are far from perfect, and there are some injuries, and the pen is less than ideal. But don't we evaluate a manager based on how many games a team wins relative to their talent? Can you really argue that Bobby has maximized this team? Forget about Bobby's ego, stupid comments and off the field nonsense. If any manager led this team to a 4-10 record we'd be questioning how effective they are as a coach.

#1168 rembrat


  • SoSH Member


  • 20402 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

Couldn't it have been that they (the players) were shellshocked? Besides, what could any of them say to him anyway anyway. Can't believe I'm sort of defending the guy.


After Sept 2011, how can this game shellshock em? They've literally seen it all.

#1169 soxfan121


  • minidope/racontuer


  • 12005 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

So, please, if you want to defend Bobby V's performance, defend his performance. That would be great. Trashing the roster construction does not constitute defending the performance of Bobby Valentine.


Here's some mud. Make bricks out of it. Oh, you can't? Why not? No straw? Too bad. You suck at making bricks. Saint Tito, Casey Stengel, Leo Durocher's foul-mouthed corpse and Phil Fucking Jackson couldn't make bricks with this roster.

"Bobby V sucks for using Padilla instead of ..." WHO EXACTLY?! One of the guys who pitched yesterday? One of the other stiffs who subsequently couldn't get any outs?

It's about the players and their performance. For YEARS it's been axiomatic on SoSH that a manager has little to nothing to do with wins and losses - yet, this thread is for blaming the manager for losses. What utter bullshit. Blame the fucking players - they are the ones actually playing. If you don't think the players are good enough, that's a complaint about the GENERAL manager.

Thomas or Padilla or Albers or Atchison or Tazawa or Morales or Aceves....which one of those guys is performing like crap because of Valentine? My answer is none of the above - they all kinda suck and their career numbers back that up. Aceves is a long man playing closer; Padilla is a long man. Albers & Morales were distrusted so much last September that Saint Tito was criticized for bringing them into games that weren't already lost. Atchison spent most of last year in AAA, for a reason. Tazawa is the only guy you could point at as a positive and he's just back from TJ surgery and has no major league track record of success.

Go make bricks. Here's some dirt. No water, no straw. If you can't, you suck. Mind-boggling.

#1170 Kramerica Industries

  • 713 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:05 PM

No, it's a mediocre team that just faced maybe the top 4 teams in the league. Mediocre teams get smoked by the top teams in the league. That's why they're mediocre.



#1171 Reverend


  • needs sharper knives


  • 19348 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:08 PM

Here's some mud. Make bricks out of it. Oh, you can't? Why not? No straw? Too bad. You suck at making bricks. Saint Tito, Casey Stengel, Leo Durocher's foul-mouthed corpse and Phil Fucking Jackson couldn't make bricks with this roster.

"Bobby V sucks for using Padilla instead of ..." WHO EXACTLY?! One of the guys who pitched yesterday? One of the other stiffs who subsequently couldn't get any outs?

It's about the players and their performance. For YEARS it's been axiomatic on SoSH that a manager has little to nothing to do with wins and losses - yet, this thread is for blaming the manager for losses. What utter bullshit. Blame the fucking players - they are the ones actually playing. If you don't think the players are good enough, that's a complaint about the GENERAL manager.

Thomas or Padilla or Albers or Atchison or Tazawa or Morales or Aceves....which one of those guys is performing like crap because of Valentine? My answer is none of the above - they all kinda suck and their career numbers back that up. Aceves is a long man playing closer; Padilla is a long man. Albers & Morales were distrusted so much last September that Saint Tito was criticized for bringing them into games that weren't already lost. Atchison spent most of last year in AAA, for a reason. Tazawa is the only guy you could point at as a positive and he's just back from TJ surgery and has no major league track record of success.

Go make bricks. Here's some dirt. No water, no straw. If you can't, you suck. Mind-boggling.


Are you under the impression that JakeRae does not understand the strong correlation between player performance and recorded outcomes of games?

Because if not, I fail to see what this post is meant to accomplish.

#1172 amh03


  • Tippi Hedren


  • 4263 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:13 PM

Maybe they didn't want to make eye contact with their boss after they shit all over themselves on national TV because they were embarrassed, not because they don't like him.

Do you really think embarrassment is what's being felt? Seriously?

There's no connection between the players and the manager...and that's the fault of both the manager & the players. Ultimately, I think, the front office will have to fix it.

Edited by amh03, 21 April 2012 - 08:20 PM.


#1173 soxfan121


  • minidope/racontuer


  • 12005 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:15 PM

Are you under the impression that JakeRae does not understand the strong correlation between player performance and recorded outcomes of games?

Because if not, I fail to see what this post is meant to accomplish.


I admit - I am not familiar with what Jake Rae knows or does not know. Nor do I really care. The idea that we're to dissect Bobby's moves without factoring in player performance or roster construction seems like asking someone to make bricks without straw.

I guess if this is the "I hate Bobby and his ass face" thread, then ok...have a day. But let's not pretend that Valentine was given the tools and he been using the claw-end of the hammer to drive nails.

#1174 Reverend


  • needs sharper knives


  • 19348 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

I admit - I am not familiar with what Jake Rae knows or does not know. Nor do I really care. The idea that we're to dissect Bobby's moves without factoring in player performance or roster construction seems like asking someone to make bricks without straw.


I completely disagree that that's what JakeRae says we should do.

He said it would be more useful to try to isolate the impact BV's decisions have on outcomes as distinct from the other factors, e.g. ceteris paribus, what impact, if any, are BV's decisions having on games and, therefore, the season. It's what we do with every other factor in the game: we try to figure out how much it affects outcomes. I don't understand the logic of wanting to investigate that for every player and every facet of the game, but not for managerial decisions, to be honest.

As for what JakeRae does or does not know, well, he posts here. I'm working under the assumption he's not lying about what he thinks.

#1175 soxfan121


  • minidope/racontuer


  • 12005 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:29 PM

I completely disagree that that's what JakeRae says we should do.

He said it would be more useful to try to isolate the impact BV's decisions have on outcomes as distinct from the other factors, e.g. ceteris paribus, what impact, if any, are BV's decisions having on games and, therefore, the season. It's what we do with every other factor in the game: we try to figure out how much it affects outcomes. I don't understand the logic of wanting to investigate that for every player and every facet of the game, but not for managerial decisions, to be honest.

As for what JakeRae does or does not know, well, he posts here. I'm working under the assumption he's not lying about what he thinks.


1. Do you think that's what is happening in this thread? Do you think that has the proverbial snowball's chance of happening, right now, in this thread?

2. I am NOT disparaging Jake Rae - when I say I don't know, it means I don't know. And when I say I don't care...well, see #1. Jake Rae seems like a reasonable dude - unlike most of the regular posters in this thread who most assuredly ARE ripping Valentine for his inability to make bricks.

#1176 Seels

  • 1476 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

My problem with Bobby V is that even though players are underperforming, he doesn't put these guys in positions to succeed. What is the purpose of intentional walks with no outs, especially with the meat of the order coming up? Why play the outfield deep with no outs and Nunez up? He can't / shouldn't get blamed for scrubs playing like scrubs -- it's not his fault Aviles Saltalamacchia Repko Ross and McDonald are starting members of this team, but he deserves a ton of blame for not getting the most out of his good players. If you would have told me last year that Cody Ross would bat cleanup at a time when Pedroia Gonzalez Youkilis and Ortiz are all perfectly healthy, I would have laughed at you.

Bobby V does dumb things for the sake of seeming smarter than he is.

#1177 Reverend


  • needs sharper knives


  • 19348 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

I like to think that JakeRae was speaking to those haters as well.

I don't understand why you would assume that is not the case.

I will always support the position urging better discussion no matter how unlikely that may seem, and I am unapologetic about that position; indeed, I expect people thinking that way is a precondition to achieving the goal and I think that assuming it is impossible is giving up the game.

#1178 JakeRae


  • SoSH Member


  • 5000 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:35 PM

I admit - I am not familiar with what Jake Rae knows or does not know. Nor do I really care. The idea that we're to dissect Bobby's moves without factoring in player performance or roster construction seems like asking someone to make bricks without straw.

I guess if this is the "I hate Bobby and his ass face" thread, then ok...have a day. But let's not pretend that Valentine was given the tools and he been using the claw-end of the hammer to drive nails.

To use your brick building analogy:

I'm saying that if we want to evaluate someones ability to build bricks, we should evaluate how they go about building the bricks, not the impact of the quality of the ingredients on the end result. We should be looking at method, not results. That goes for the times where bad decisions work out well (batting Punto leadoff, for example) and the times where good decisions work out poorly (Padilla today). I think Bobby Valentine managed the pitching staff quite well today prior to his IBB binge in the 9th which I'm willing to grant him a pass on considering how out of control everything was by that point.

Your decision to attribute a belief that the usage of Padilla today was wrong to me demonstrates how completely you don't understand my perspective in all of this. Results be damned, I care about the thought process that went into the choices that were made and whether that was correct.

Like Rev, I would love to be able to go about figuring out the actual impact of these decisions over the course of the season, although I'm not really sure how to do that. But, absent that, I just want to discuss whether our manager is making good decisions or bad and what he should be doing better.

Edited for spelling.

Edited by JakeRae, 21 April 2012 - 08:37 PM.


#1179 Plympton91


  • it's time to get weird


  • 5046 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:38 PM

This is bullshit. Can you honestly look at this roster and say they have the talent level of a below. 300 team? I mean, I get that they are far from perfect, and there are some injuries, and the pen is less than ideal. But don't we evaluate a manager based on how many games a team wins relative to their talent? Can you really argue that Bobby has maximized this team? Forget about Bobby's ego, stupid comments and off the field nonsense. If any manager led this team to a 4-10 record we'd be questioning how effective they are as a coach.


Last September, this team went 7 and 22. Since then, as of right now, they've replaced Jonathan Papelbon with-take your pick-Padilla, Tazawa, or Thomas. Yes, it was supposed to be Bailey, but he's hurt, or maybe Melancon, but he's in AAA, so. right now, when decisions meed to be made, it's Padilla or Tazawa or Thomas instead of Jonathan Papelbon.

So, if making Aceves the closer was a mistake? Ok, then which of Atchison, Albers, or Morales is your closer? Morales, you say? Ok, who pitches to Carlos Pena instead of a tired Bard with 2 outs in the 7th? Thomas?

The people saying that the composition of the bullpen is irrelevant to the evaluation of the manager are just flat out wrong. Baseball managing is a chess game, not Candyland. Every action matters not just in the moment but later in the game (if you use your best lefty in the 7th who do you go to when you need a lefty in the 9th?). The quality of the staff is fundamental to the decision-making process, not tangential.

To argue otherwise is to argue that teams should employ a spreadsheet instead of a person.



#1180 soxfan121


  • minidope/racontuer


  • 12005 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:43 PM

I like to think that JakeRae was speaking to those haters as well.

I don't understand why you would assume that is not the case.

I will always support the position urging better discussion no matter how unlikely that may seem, and I am unapologetic about that position; indeed, I expect people thinking that way is a precondition to achieving the goal and I think that assuming it is impossible is giving up the game.


I'm not reading the OP as generously as you are; the "haters" are not being addressed, the "defenders" are. I suppose that I could choose to read it in the way you suggest but it didn't occur to me when I first read it because I'm

I don't see much of anything in this thread that has been in the zip code of "better discussion". From MY first post (#1 in the thread) this has been a non-stop bitch fest about BV with an occasional (and accidental) tangent into "better discussion". Honestly, I think if you're interested in isolating outcomes, dropping latin into the conversation and talking about the moves and their relative merits - this is not the correct thread. As the title says - it's about "Blaming Bobby". And this board has made clear that rational discussions about Bobby Valentine are not welcome. At least it seems that way because rembrat is still allowed to post in it.

ETA: Jake, thanks and my apologies if I have in any way offended - was not my intent. That's a reasonable position. I will allow this post to stand in rebuttal; your motives are good - the choice of locations is poor. Start a new thread and ask the dopes to keep "useless bitching" here and real analysis there.

Edited by soxfan121, 21 April 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#1181 mauidano


  • Mai Tais for everyone!


  • 11236 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:46 PM

Maybe they didn't want to make eye contact with their boss after they shit all over themselves on national TV because they were embarrassed, not because they don't like him.

I wouldn't look either. Outside of 4 or 5 guys on that roster, they should be humiliated about what little they have done. A bunch of quitters and Bobby is not one of them. I'm sure it's killing him. 20 other guys? Not so much.

#1182 Buzzkill Pauley

  • 4944 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:55 PM

Do you really think embarrassment is what's being felt? Seriously?

There's no connection between the players and the manager...and that's the fault of both the manager & the players. Ultimately, I think, the front office will have to fix it.


Absolutely -- I believe you 100% amh03.

Yes, it's unjust. Yes, it opens the FO to second-guessing and (entirely valid) accusations of scapegoating. Yes, BobbyV can't be blamed for how absurdly bad the bullpen pitched tonight. Yes, the players need to take responsibility for their suck.

But it's both faster and easier to address the issue in-season by firing the manager than dumping $100MM of guaranteed contracts. And the Sox need to strike fast and decisively if the clubhouse dynamic is a "fatal flaw" already.

If BobbyV's lost the clubhouse as badly as it seems -- if two weeks into the season the players can't respect him for whatever reason -- I don't see how the Red Sox can move forward this year, or even the next. I say that as someone who thinks BobbyV might have lost his in-game-decision fastball, and who has called him on it. I admit that. But I'm not someone who inherently dislikes the guy for things he's done in the past.

This team has come out of Spring Training playing as bad a brand of baseball as I've seen since the 2001 squad played .395 ball for Joe Kerrigan. And this group of players has a hell of a lot more talent than that roster -- though not in the bullpen. The common thread is that there's clearly no mutual respect.

Bring on Bogar as an interim -- he may not be Farrell or Sveum, but at least he has something of a connection to both the players and the front office pre-existing last year's collapse.

#1183 absintheofmalaise


  • too many flowers


  • 10032 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

I'm not reading the OP as generously as you are; the "haters" are not being addressed, the "defenders" are. I suppose that I could choose to read it in the way you suggest but it didn't occur to me when I first read it because I'm

I don't see much of anything in this thread that has been in the zip code of "better discussion". From MY first post (#1 in the thread) this has been a non-stop bitch fest about BV with an occasional (and accidental) tangent into "better discussion". Honestly, I think if you're interested in isolating outcomes, dropping latin into the conversation and talking about the moves and their relative merits - this is not the correct thread. As the title says - it's about "Blaming Bobby". And this board has made clear that rational discussions about Bobby Valentine are not welcome. At least it seems that way because rembrat is still allowed to post in it.

ETA: Jake, thanks and my apologies if I have in any way offended - was not my intent. That's a reasonable position. I will allow this post to stand in rebuttal; your motives are good - the choice of locations is poor. Start a new thread and ask the dopes to keep "useless bitching" here and real analysis there.


No. That is exactly what this thread can and should be used for. Why do you think you can't have a rational discussion in this thread? It's really not that difficult of a goal to achieve. Useless bitching is exactly that. It serves no purpose.

#1184 pjr

  • 421 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:06 PM

Edes ,
http://twitter.com/#!/GordonEdes

Sox designated Nate Spears for assignment to make room for Byrd on roster
4m
Ben said Lucchino, Henry came down to convey that "we're all in this together.'' Same pattern they've folo'd after other tough losses.''


Cherington: If changes need to be made on roster, that's my responsibilty. We're 4-10.

More Ben on Bobby: He's doing best he can with what he has. It'll get better. He knows that. I know that.

Cherington on Bobby V: Very satisfied. Players will always influence wins and losses more than anybody else.


Cherington says Bard starting Sunday night, said they haven't discussed what Bard will do if game rained out tomorrow

Edited by pjr, 21 April 2012 - 09:08 PM.


#1185 E5 Yaz


  • Transcends message boarding


  • 23279 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:07 PM

Cherington: "The players will always influence wins and losses more than anybody else. That’s no different here."



#1186 lexrageorge

  • 2836 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:13 PM

There has been some analysis and discussion of in-game moves here amidst all the noise. There was the infamous bunt play in Detroit, in which the board was split on whether that was a good decision (play for big inning vs. play for 1 run). But at least some of the discussion was based on numbers.

Of course, what has happened is that the team, as constructed, has not been remotely competitive. The Cast of Clowns in the bullpen, the automatic outs in the 7 5 through 9 spots, the injuries, etc. have all conspired to make the manager's decisions, both good and bad, to be basically irrelevant (for the most part).

Why do you think you can't have a rational discussion in this thread?


Because you have posters who worry about his facial expressions during the game, or actually care what Curt Schilling has to say on the subject, and other nonsense.

#1187 KenTremendous

  • 450 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:15 PM

If Valentine had the 2004 roster, or the 2007 roster, he could make some of his questionable moves and the team would be fine. He doesn't have those rosters.

If the front office hadn't made a dozen consecutive bad moves, the organization could use its resources to overcome any bad manager in the world. But they did make those bad moves.

If the players weren't all injured and/or terrible, the manager wouldn't matter anyway. But most of them are injured and/or terrible.

This, my friends, is what you might call a Perfect Storm.

#1188 86spike


  • Currently enjoying "Arli$$"


  • 21721 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:16 PM

Absolutely -- I believe you 100% amh03.

Yes, it's unjust. Yes, it opens the FO to second-guessing and (entirely valid) accusations of scapegoating. Yes, BobbyV can't be blamed for how absurdly bad the bullpen pitched tonight. Yes, the players need to take responsibility for their suck.

But it's both faster and easier to address the issue in-season by firing the manager than dumping $100MM of guaranteed contracts. And the Sox need to strike fast and decisively if the clubhouse dynamic is a "fatal flaw" already.

If BobbyV's lost the clubhouse as badly as it seems -- if two weeks into the season the players can't respect him for whatever reason -- I don't see how the Red Sox can move forward this year, or even the next. I say that as someone who thinks BobbyV might have lost his in-game-decision fastball, and who has called him on it. I admit that. But I'm not someone who inherently dislikes the guy for things he's done in the past.

This team has come out of Spring Training playing as bad a brand of baseball as I've seen since the 2001 squad played .395 ball for Joe Kerrigan. And this group of players has a hell of a lot more talent than that roster -- though not in the bullpen. The common thread is that there's clearly no mutual respect.

Bring on Bogar as an interim -- he may not be Farrell or Sveum, but at least he has something of a connection to both the players and the front office pre-existing last year's collapse.


If these players have written off their boss in only 3 months' time, then they are bigger pieces of shit then I could have ever imagined. That would be a serious indictment of the character of these players, IMO.

Edited by 86spike, 21 April 2012 - 09:20 PM.


#1189 mauidano


  • Mai Tais for everyone!


  • 11236 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:16 PM

Absolutely -- I believe you 100% amh03.

Yes, it's unjust. Yes, it opens the FO to second-guessing and (entirely valid) accusations of scapegoating. Yes, BobbyV can't be blamed for how absurdly bad the bullpen pitched tonight. Yes, the players need to take responsibility for their suck.

But it's both faster and easier to address the issue in-season by firing the manager than dumping $100MM of guaranteed contracts. And the Sox need to strike fast and decisively if the clubhouse dynamic is a "fatal flaw" already.

If BobbyV's lost the clubhouse as badly as it seems -- if two weeks into the season the players can't respect him for whatever reason -- I don't see how the Red Sox can move forward this year, or even the next. I say that as someone who thinks BobbyV might have lost his in-game-decision fastball, and who has called him on it. I admit that. But I'm not someone who inherently dislikes the guy for things he's done in the past.

This team has come out of Spring Training playing as bad a brand of baseball as I've seen since the 2001 squad played .395 ball for Joe Kerrigan. And this group of players has a hell of a lot more talent than that roster -- though not in the bullpen. The common thread is that there's clearly no mutual respect.

Bring on Bogar as an interim -- he may not be Farrell or Sveum, but at least he has something of a connection to both the players and the front office pre-existing last year's collapse.

Panic has set in. Rationality has fallen by the wayside. No one and I mean NO ONE can have done better with what he was given this far into the season. sorry to break anyones heart here but not even Tito. He had his share of fuckups too and that's why he's not here. I'm glad that the Front Office has his back. 95% of this is on the players. Stop overanalyzing every thing. Too many dynamics at play. Under the circumstances he's holding the ship together pretty well.

#1190 absintheofmalaise


  • too many flowers


  • 10032 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:16 PM

There has been some analysis and discussion of in-game moves here amidst all the noise. There was the infamous bunt play in Detroit, in which the board was split on whether that was a good decision (play for big inning vs. play for 1 run). But at least some of the discussion was based on numbers.

Of course, what has happened is that the team, as constructed, has not been remotely competitive. The Cast of Clowns in the bullpen, the automatic outs in the 7 5 through 9 spots, the injuries, etc. have all conspired to make the manager's decisions, both good and bad, to be basically irrelevant (for the most part).

[/size][/font][/color]
Because you have posters who worry about his facial expressions during the game, or actually care what Curt Schilling has to say on the subject, and other nonsense.


Ignore them and carry on with the discussion. Others will join in.

#1191 soxfan121


  • minidope/racontuer


  • 12005 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:16 PM

No. That is exactly what this thread can and should be used for. Why do you think you can't have a rational discussion in this thread? It's really not that difficult of a goal to achieve. Useless bitching is exactly that. It serves no purpose.


Because I've read the whole thread? Because Dopes and Members alike have consistently eschewed rational discussion in exchange for hyperventilating and bullshit? And I would submit that useless bitching does serve a purpose, just not one that you respect.

I'm certainly a contributor to the "suck" that is this thread but I'm not alone. So I'll depart and I'll look forward to reading the forthcoming "better discussion". I just have no faith it'll actually take place, given what has already transpired and the entrenched opinions already present.

#1192 mauidano


  • Mai Tais for everyone!


  • 11236 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:24 PM

absintheofmalaise-

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer 1788-1860

This is apropos in he current thread. It will become self evident that this is not about blaming Bobby. There is enough to go around and he's nearer to the bottom of that list. 14 games is not giving him much a chance considering the circumstances he's been handed.

Edited by mauidano, 21 April 2012 - 09:24 PM.


#1193 Buzzkill Pauley

  • 4944 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:27 PM

If these players have written off their boss in only 3 months' time, then they are bigger pieces of shit then I could have ever imagined. That would be a serious an indictment of the character of these players, IMO.


Of course they're enormous pieces of shit. How many years did people on this board defend Manny -- eight?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the only players on the 40-man I'd actually want to invite to a Christmas party would be Bard, Gonzalez, and Melancon. But not really Melancon, 'cause he sucked and it would be awkward for the other guests. Everyone else comes off as an absolute douchebag. I'd give anything to return to the days of Mueller, Millar, Kapler, and Pedro.

The problem is, that these guys are enormous pieces of shit able to play baseball much, much better than they have been playing. And most of them are enormous pieces of shit on guaranteed contracts, so it's almost impossible to get rid of them.

It's far easier to eat a single two-year contract and find someone who these shit-pieces will play hard for, than to try to get rid of all the shit-pieces.

#1194 absintheofmalaise


  • too many flowers


  • 10032 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:37 PM

Because I've read the whole thread? Because Dopes and Members alike have consistently eschewed rational discussion in exchange for hyperventilating and bullshit? And I would submit that useless bitching does serve a purpose, just not one that you respect.

I'm certainly a contributor to the "suck" that is this thread but I'm not alone. So I'll depart and I'll look forward to reading the forthcoming "better discussion". I just have no faith it'll actually take place, given what has already transpired and the entrenched opinions already present.


I've read the entire thread too, in addition to all of the other ones on the main board. Your contribution to them has been consistent. You might also have noticed that many of the other threads around here have taken a turn for the better. If you're aware that you've contributed to the suck, then you certainly should have taken steps to correct that don't you think?

#1195 tonyarmasjr

  • 565 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:46 PM

I'm saying that if we want to evaluate someones ability to build bricks, we should evaluate how they go about building the bricks, not the impact of the quality of the ingredients on the end result. We should be looking at method, not results. That goes for the times where bad decisions work out well (batting Punto leadoff, for example) and the times where good decisions work out poorly (Padilla today).I think Bobby Valentine managed the pitching staff quite well today prior to his IBB binge in the 9th which I'm willing to grant him a pass on considering how out of control everything was by that point.

I don't really have a problem with the first IBB. He had just watched his bullpen piss away a 9 run lead. Aceves had come in and walked Jeter and given up a double to Swisher. I think at that point, with no outs in the 8th, you have to play to keep it a 1-run game. And that means Aceves (BB and 2B to his first 2 batters) has to get Cano, A-Rod, and Tex without giving up a hit. Given the matchups and Cano's history at Fenway, I want no part of him there. I'd much rather set up the DP for A-Rod and Tex, both of whom are worse against RHP. If there's one place I think Bobby V has failed miserably thus far, it's not playing handedness platoon matchups (see Morales v Nunez to start the 8th), so I can't blame him for doing it there. I still don't know how I feel about the second one. I think he played it right, but Thomas should've only pitched to Ibanez. (Did the MFYs have another LHH on the bench?) He has no business pitching to righties.

#1196 jon abbey


  • Shanghai Warrior


  • 14736 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

I'd much rather set up the DP for A-Rod and Tex, both of whom are worse against RHP.


A-Rod has actually been significantly worse against LHP for the last 2+ seasons:

OPS vs. RHP/LHP:

2012: .983/.222 (obviously tiny sample size)
2011: .848/.750
2010: .883/.755

#1197 tonyarmasjr

  • 565 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:05 PM

A-Rod has actually been significantly worse against LHP for the last 2+ seasons:

OPS vs. RHP/LHP:

2012: .983/.222 (obviously tiny sample size)
2011: .848/.750
2010: .883/.755

I meant relative to Cano. But I didn't realize that about A-Rod. Certainly makes it a tougher call in my mind. I still don't think I have a big problem with it, though. There's not a huge difference in giving up 1 run vs 2+ there. You're looking at having to score multiple runs in the final 2 innings with a looming Rivera either way.

#1198 jon abbey


  • Shanghai Warrior


  • 14736 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:09 PM

I meant relative to Cano. But I didn't realize that about A-Rod. Certainly makes it a tougher call in my mind. I still don't think I have a big problem with it, though. There's not a huge difference in giving up 1 run vs 2+ there. You're looking at having to score multiple runs in the final 2 innings with a looming Rivera either way.


A looming Rivera but an 8th inning pitcher very much in doubt with Soriano already having gone an inning and Robertson probably not available.

I thought both of those IBBs were crazy with no outs, FWIW (and wrote so in the Yankee game thread at the time). With one out, I can at least see an argument.

#1199 singaporesoxfan

  • 3203 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:15 PM

I tend to agree with the consensus that managers have very little impact on the game, at least in terms of in-game decisions (as opposed to how much playing time each player gets). But the conclusion I draw is that even if I don't blame Bobby V that much for the slow start (maybe 1 loss, at most 2, is on him?), I can't see how it would hurt to replace him either.

#1200 tonyarmasjr

  • 565 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:55 PM

A looming Rivera but an 8th inning pitcher very much in doubt with Soriano already having gone an inning and Robertson probably not available.

I thought both of those IBBs were crazy with no outs, FWIW (and wrote so in the Yankee game thread at the time). With one out, I can at least see an argument.

My opinion is that Cano is the best hitter in the lineup in that situation. So, if the choice is to put him on, I don't have a huge problem with it. The numbers may not bear it out, but in my head the odds of the Yankees scoring 1+ run and the win expectancy don't change too much by putting Cano on and pitching to the other two, with Thomas pitching to Granderson.
I also would've expected to see Rivera at the first sign of trouble, having not pitched yesterday. I don't think a 6-out save would've been completely out of the question if that's what it took. And from a completely irrational standpoint, I really had no expectation of the Sox putting any runs on the board after the top of the 7th. That's not how this team does things...




2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users