1275 replies to this topic

[soxfan121]

Let's get this out of the way up top - we're here to blame Bobby Valentine for everything. Anything that goes right with the 2012 Red Sox will obviously be due to someone heroically overcoming the corrosive influence of Bobby; anything that goes wrong will be due to Bobby V's ego, lack of intelligence, selfishness or reasons-to-be-named-later.

Allow me to turn this over to lead investigator, Rembrat, and the news that fundamentals & activity will be a focus of Spring Training:

This is silly. Baseball is about standing around.

EDIT: Personally, this entire idea reeks of micromanaging and Valentine's I'm smarter than you shit.

And now chief prosecutor, Smiling Joe Hesketh:

I agree. Frankly this is set up as a no-lose for Bobby. If they come out of the gates strong he will get the credit for getting their lazy, fat, overpaid choking asses into shape and actually working hard for a change. If they start out slow there's little doubt it's the players who will take the blame for not listening to Bobby's infinite wisdom.

To be fair, the chief prosecutor is interested to find out if "fielding/fundamentals" improve. And as an experienced prosecutor, he has left open the possibility that if "fielding/fundamentals" improve that credit can be given to Camp Architect Tim Bogar, which is exactly what we're looking for in this thread. If it turns out well/good/acceptable, it was someone else. If it sucks, it was Bobby.

Tune in all season for riveting analysis from the chief prosecutor, lead investigator and their team.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Frankly if Fenway gets hit by a comet this season I'm blaming Bobby. Lord knows he'll take credit if somehow the goddamn thing misses the place.

[Toe Nash]

It's not just this board:

www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/valentine-on-pitching/

I've gone from being ambivalent on Valentine to rooting really hard for him in the course of a month or so. The amount of ridicule everything he does gets is ridiculous.

Edited by Toe Nash, 15 February 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It's not just this board:

www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/valentine-on-pitching/

I've gone from being ambivalent on Valentine to rooting really hard for him in the course of a month or so. The amount of ridicule everything he does gets is ridiculous.

What is your problem with the Fangraphs article? Seems to me they raise several good points. They are hardly prone to hyperbole.

[Toe Nash]

What is your problem with the Fangraphs article? Seems to me they raise several good points. They are hardly prone to hyperbole.

They do. But it's encapsulated in language that takes what he says out of context and paints him as some Grady Little-esque moron.

In response to Valentine's quote about Strasburg receiving a ton of attention, and his arm still "breaking:"

First of all, there have been no reports that Strasburg suffered a broken arm, and if even if he had I’m not aware of a case where Tommy John surgery was the prescribed remedy for an arm fracture. Factual errors aside, it is next to impossible to learn anything systematic about pitcher health –- or anything else for that matter — by focusing on one case.

It's blatantly obvious that Valentine didn't mean Strasburg's arm actually fractured. The author continually harps on Valentine's SSS examples when he's really bringing them up as counterexamples to the idea of hard pitch counts. As I noted in the comments, there's decent evidence that Valentine grasps sabermetric ideas but isn't going to take them as the be-all, end-all. It's just poorly written and judges BV when we have no idea how he'll manage for these Red Sox.

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

. It's just poorly written and judges BV when we have no idea how he'll manage for these Red Sox.

Besides that, we have no idea the extent to which he was asked/instructed to "dumb it down" for Baseball Tonight and other audiences, or how much he chose to do so himself outside of those environments in an attempt to land another job. Sound bites are fun and all, but they're hardly conclusive evidence - which is why we should save the hand-wringing until we see it in-season.

[bschase2]

So, in a week our new manager has decided to have beef with both the (generally) beloved former manager and the (generally) beloved MFY shortstop.

Given, it is early and there isn't a lot to talk about yet, but Bobby V is already making national headlines. Is this him taking heat away from the team and the collapse (which no one wants to talk about), or has he not yet realized the differences between what he says as manager and what he says as a talking head?

[rembrat]

That's what you get with Bobby V. He also said Tek's accomplishment should include "beating up Rodriguez." But that was pretty cool.

He might be taking heat off the players but he is also painting a bigger bullseye on the team by simply being its manager.

[Rasputin]

I really wish he would just shut the fuck up.

[dbn]

I did not like the hire, but have resolved to keeping an open mind. I did like this quote, however:

Baseball Prospectus once opined that a manager could be worth two to three wins a season, but Valentine isn’t buying it.

“None,” he said. “Most managers can only lose games. They can never win a game.”

from http://espn.go.com/b...oes-practice-it

[EvilEmpire]

Bobby is trying a little too hard with the Yankee stuff, but I guess better him talking about the Yankees than talking about his own players. I'm looking forward to when he runs out of things to say about other teams and starts in on his own. He can't help himself.

[Laser Show]

Should Valentine have been watching what he was saying a bit more closely? Yea, probably. But I think this being blown out of proportion by the media.

Here's the video of his comments:



It sounds like Edes was the one who brought it up in the first place, and I thought Valentine gave a good baseball answer. The "jabs" so to speak sound like after thoughts.

I'm not bothered by this, at least not yet.

[SoxScout]

He is going to say shit like this all year, act smarter than everyone else. I don't really care.

But if he backs down, like he did today with everything he says, I am going to puke.

Same with Francona. If you say something don't say you're sorry 20 hours later. Who gives a fuck if you tweak someone.

[jodyreeddudley78]

Should Valentine have been watching what he was saying a bit more closely? Yea, probably. But I think this being blown out of proportion by the media.

Here's the video of his comments:

It sounds like Edes was the one who brought it up in the first place, and I thought Valentine gave a good baseball answer. The "jabs" so to speak sound like after thoughts.

I'm not bothered by this, at least not yet.

The Jeter thing has been blown out of proportion, at least by the NY media. The Sox were working on relays, and given that context, he seemed to be saying that the play was not fundamentally sound. Which it wasn't. He wasn't even insulting Jeter, unless you consider his opinion that the throw would have beat Giambi without the relay as a dig. He then called the play "amazing" after he (perhaps) realized that what he had said would be construed as an insult.

The NY media has decided to run with it because Jeter is the chosen one, with that play being the perfect example of gritty, intangible goodness that virtually no other SS makes because they are covering 2nd base. That and they love Bobby.

The Francona stuff is annoying and petty on both sides, but also being over done.

[BucketOBalls]

I did not like the hire, but have resolved to keeping an open mind. I did like this quote, however:

I didn't mind the hire. I'm not so sure about the reason a hire was needed...but once you got there, V seemed like an ok, (or at least entertaining) pick among a weak field.

We should be glad, they could have gone with Ozzie Guillen.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Baseball Prospectus once opined that a manager could be worth two to three wins a season, but Valentine isn’t buying it.

“None,” he said. “Most managers can only lose games. They can never win a game.”

This is either subtlely brilliant or distressingly stupid. I have no idea which.

[Zomp]

After watching that video its pretty clear the whole thing was blown out of proportion.

[StuckOnYouk]

Bobby is trying a little too hard with the Yankee stuff, but I guess better him talking about the Yankees than talking about his own players. I'm looking forward to when he runs out of things to say about other teams and starts in on his own. He can't help himself.

I loved the Bobby V hiring for two reasons
1) He knows the game and is a good in-game manager
2) At some point during the year he'd send the Yankees fanbase into hysteria

We haven't even played a spring training game yet and he's already accomplished #2. Listening to WFAN today and a few friends who are NY fans, let's just say it's been entertaining..

[EvilEmpire]

I loved the Bobby V hiring for two reasons
1) He knows the game and is a good in-game manager
2) At some point during the year he'd send the Yankees fanbase into hysteria

We haven't even played a spring training game yet and he's already accomplished #2. Listening to WFAN today and a few friends who are NY fans, let's just say it's been entertaining..

Yeah, it doesn't take much with a certain portion of the fanbase. Never does. Given Bobby's prior history in NY, it probably takes even less. It all makes for good theater though. Valentine might be the Joe Biden of baseball managers, but he is certainly never boring.

edit: typo

Edited by EvilEmpire, 01 March 2012 - 01:24 AM.

[YTF]

Rex Ryan Lite?

Just days after responding to Tito's comments with "Over there they pay you to say things, over here they pay you to DO things" Bobby seems to be saying lots of things. I agree with Ras............Shut the fuck up Bobby.

Edited by YTF, 01 March 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[EvilEmpire]

Definitely lighter.

[TheoShmeo]

Wake me up when Bobby says something about one of the Sox players that is detrimental to the team or makes a managerial mistake with respect to the line-up, team construction or a game.

His comments about other teams are equal parts amusing and perplexing, but I don't see how they hurt the Red Sox or matter. Rex Ryan's commentary could provide amped up NFL players more motivation to beat the Jets. Several of the Jets players thought that was the case. I don't see that translating to baseball and, as a result, the only real impact of these Yankee comments is bunching the panties of some Yankees' fans and mediots.

[jon abbey]

his opinion that the throw would have beat Giambi without the relay

This was the funny part to me, that throw wasn't even close to on line.

[CaptainLaddie]

Frankly if Fenway gets hit by a comet this season I'm blaming Bobby. Lord knows he'll take credit if somehow the goddamn thing misses the place.

You owe me a new keyboard.

[TheoShmeo]

This was the funny part to me, that throw wasn't even close to on line.

And the ball wasn't moving fast enough to make it home on time without some help.

Now if Bobby said that the play doesn't happen if Giambi slides, he would have been on to something.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

Intentional or not, I haven't heard a single thing about Chicken or Beer since the whole Jeter thing went down. The Globe had about 27 straight articles on the clubhouse/collapse/beer etc. before this. Now at least they are pe-occupied with this garbage (which is better than the constant destraction of 2011)

Either Valentine is a genius for changing the narrative or this was just an added benefit.

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 01 March 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[rembrat]

Wake me up when Bobby says something about one of the Sox players that is detrimental to the team or makes a managerial mistake with respect to the line-up, team construction or a game.

Oh, give him time.

[Dick Pole Upside]

Intentional or not, I haven't heard a single thing about Chicken or Beer since the whole Jeter thing went down. The Globe had about 27 straight articles on the clubhouse/collapse/beer etc. before this. Now at least they are pe-occupied with this garbage (which is better than the constant destraction of 2011)

Either Valentine is a genius for changing the narrative or this was just an added benefit.

I'm convinced this is it, CET.

The media keeps saying the Sox won't stop talking about C & B... primarily because the media won't stop asking questions about C &B... which leads the players to continue to provide half-answers to C & B so everyone can move along... which leads to the media asking more questions about C & B...

It's ridiculously silly, and I believe Bobby V is just trying to shift the media to something equally stupid and irrelevant so that the press can continue to throw up all over itself.

[Trlicek's Whip]

Given, it is early and there isn't a lot to talk about yet, but Bobby V is already making national headlines. Is this him taking heat away from the team and the collapse (which no one wants to talk about), or has he not yet realized the differences between what he says as manager and what he says as a talking head?

Intentional or not, I haven't heard a single thing about Chicken or Beer since the whole Jeter thing went down. The Globe had about 27 straight articles on the clubhouse/collapse/beer etc. before this. Now at least they are pe-occupied with this garbage (which is better than the constant destraction of 2011)

Either Valentine is a genius for changing the narrative or this was just an added benefit.

Tito ran interference with the media to protect his players too. The fact that Tito came off as the salt of the earth while doing so made it more palatable. He was always a great quote and this suited the media following him day-to-day. Winning rings in Boston just made it easier and easier for him in the papers, even if (or when) he stopped being effective.

Bobby V obviously has a different style but the same aim - to deflect attention away from his players so they can just go out and play this year, no looking back. There's more than one way to be front and center. Even if that way has him coming off like Showalter instead of Tito. And I'd argue that he doesn't come off like a rube - he's been in the thick of a Yankee rivalry as the NYM manager. He's not picking his fights with zero street cred here. And in a league where plenty of managers have steamer trunks of baggage or less experience, we could do a lot worse.

I root for the laundry, and he wears it too. His style may burn twice as bright for half as long in Boston. But until he pops off to management in a way that embarrasses the organization, or causes tangible chaos in the clubhouse, this is all smoke and noise that the Globe, Herald, Post, NY Daily News etc should all be thankful for.

[Doctor G]

I hope Bobby realizes that the Boston and New York media is going to have Francona on speed dial all summer to get his reaction to whatever Bobby says.

Edited by Doctor G, 01 March 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[reggiecleveland]

Tito is not looking great either when he yips. If he was smart his first year at ESPN would have him say little about the Sox.

[soxfan121]

Tito is not looking great either when he yips. If he was smart his first year at ESPN would have him say little about the Sox.

Bingo. Francona sounds defensive and annoyed when he speaks about the Sox, not wise and "objective". I doubt ESPN will say anything to him though; they'd love a media-driven feud between the ex-manager and the new manager. Hell, there are lots of damp chairs at ESPN right now - they are giddy with the possibilities. The only person who can keep it under control is Francona. Valentine will say or do something "newsworthy" every single day. When and how Francona chooses to comment is entirely up to Francona.

Francona looks silly on the beer in the clubhouse thing because the majority of teams ban it. He took it as a repudiation of him not a logical reaction to a perceived problem and an easy PR win for the team. Francona always seemed like a guy who knew why he was "protecting the organization" with the media - that he suddenly doesn't understand what they were trying to do makes no sense. If he takes everything the Red Sox, and Valentine, do this season personally, it is going to be a LONG year and ESPN is going to love every minute of it.

[Frisbetarian]

The Jeter thing has been blown out of proportion, at least by the NY media. The Sox were working on relays, and given that context, he seemed to be saying that the play was not fundamentally sound. Which it wasn't. He wasn't even insulting Jeter, unless you consider his opinion that the throw would have beat Giambi without the relay as a dig. He then called the play "amazing" after he (perhaps) realized that what he had said would be construed as an insult.

The NY media has decided to run with it because Jeter is the chosen one, with that play being the perfect example of gritty, intangible goodness that virtually no other SS makes because they are covering 2nd base. That and they love Bobby.

The Francona stuff is annoying and petty on both sides, but also being over done.

I respectfully disagree with the bold. There are an overwhelming number of baseball fans who feel Jeter was out of position on that play, and either lucky or amazingly intuitive. I think it was neither, and that Jeter was exactly where he was supposed to be, but Tino Martinez was not.

The game situation is runner on 1st, 2 outs in a 1 - 0 game in the 7th. Terrance Long hits a ball into the right field corner and with Giambi on first (why Howe didn't pinch run for him I'll never know) there is the possibility of a play at the plate. Soriano correctly goes out to take the deep cut off throw and Martinez should have positioned himself between home and first for a potential cut-off on a throw to the plate. Instead, he stayed near first very close to Soriano and out of position to make any kind of play. Jeter's responsibility on this play is to position himself between the mound and 2nd base, slightly to the 1st base side, so he can either take a throw at second in the event of a cutoff by Martinez and a Long overrun of the bag, be the cut-off man for a throw to 3rd (again if the ball is cut), or back-up the throw from right field in case of an overthrow, which is exactly what he did. This is how I was taught to play a ball like that, and how I taught my players.

I have no doubt the Yankees practiced this play in spring training, and worry (not a lot) about exactly what fundamentals Valentine is teaching in spring training. Hopefully, Bogar is running them.

Below is the video of the play in question. One last comment - Derek Jeter is much maligned for being a terrible defensive SS, and his range, especially up the middle, does and always has sucked. But he has the best grasp of fundamentals of any SS I have ever seen.
http://mlb.mlb.com/v...tent_id=3134880

[geoduck no quahog]

I've always considered what any manager does in terms of verbalization and public relationships to be infinitely more important than any actual, you know...managing. It's about time we all smartened up and judge this guy based on out-of-context quips and long-distance 2nd hand observations - as that is the only true criteria on which to come to any valid conclusions.

I carry this philosophy in real life also - particularly when hiring or evaluating new or existing employees. I judge the people above and below me by what they say or how they act - not by what they do.

Unless of course they're pole-dancing, in which case I sometimes judge what they do.

It's a proven method.

[reggiecleveland]

The Jeter discussion is pointless. It is the end result that matters. It is like the guy that disobeys orders gets shot, or gets a medal. It worked out for Jeter, he gets a medal whether the play was by design, accident, luck or the result of calm eyed greatness.

The baseball learning thing from that play is how often guys don't run hard or slide. If Roid Jr. runs hard and slides it is not a play anybody remembers

[brs3]

I'm loving the Bobby V Era. The Red Sox are getting back page coverage in the NY papers. It's all about being entertained, right? I am entertained!

[darnedsox]

Media needs to fiil the void that Manny left. Oh,there will be refs to beer and chicken-but they rode that horse lame. BV will be the "now look what he's said" season long default given the managerial focus since the gerbil. I'm with brs. I live in upstate NY. Any new topic for discussion I can have with all the NY hats - or B hats to be honest, is welcome.

[barclay]

Intentional or not, I haven't heard a single thing about Chicken or Beer since the whole Jeter thing went down. The Globe had about 27 straight articles on the clubhouse/collapse/beer etc. before this. Now at least they are pe-occupied with this garbage (which is better than the constant destraction of 2011)

Either Valentine is a genius for changing the narrative or this was just an added benefit.

hmmm...if you check the time, it looks like Edes has been reading the Sosh board (http://espn.go.com/b...like-a-fox) -- could be coincidental but storyline is awfully close. Compliment? Why yes. Or does he owe someone a little cash?

Edited by barclay, 01 March 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Laser Show]

I think Bobby V killed this guy's dog or something.

That is no doubt the reason Valentine has had so much trouble for the past 11 years getting his mind around the possibility that the Yankees actually knew what they were doing that night in Oakland, Oct. 13, 2001, whenDerek Jeterexecuted the famous flip play that cut down Jeremy Giambi at the plate and turned the American League Division Series to the Yankees.

"Different organizations do it different ways," Kelleher said. "That's the way this organization does it."
Which is something Bobby Valentine didn't seem to get, and perhaps never has, that his way is not the only way of doing things.

Maybe constantly tweaking the Yankees is his way of motivating his complacent team -- that, and a ban on clubhouse booze -- or maybe it's a way of deflecting the focus from his players and directing it at himself.
Or maybe the Yankees are so deep in his head that he simply can't help himself. How else to explain why, in the course of praising a player (Jason Varitek) who is about to retire, Valentine would choose to dig up one of his least gallant moments, the day he initiated a fistfight with Alex Rodriguez while protected behind a catcher's suit of armor, mask and all?

[JimD]

I think Bobby V killed this guy's dog or something.



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Wow, talk about 'not getting it' - Varitek's 'least gallant moment' is probably the single biggest reason he will be fondly remembered by a significant portion of Red Sox fandom.

[jodyreeddudley78]

I respectfully disagree with the bold. There are an overwhelming number of baseball fans who feel Jeter was out of position on that play, and either lucky or amazingly intuitive. I think it was neither, and that Jeter was exactly where he was supposed to be, but Tino Martinez was not.

The game situation is runner on 1st, 2 outs in a 1 - 0 game in the 7th. Terrance Long hits a ball into the right field corner and with Giambi on first (why Howe didn't pinch run for him I'll never know) there is the possibility of a play at the plate. Soriano correctly goes out to take the deep cut off throw and Martinez should have positioned himself between home and first for a potential cut-off on a throw to the plate. Instead, he stayed near first very close to Soriano and out of position to make any kind of play. Jeter's responsibility on this play is to position himself between the mound and 2nd base, slightly to the 1st base side, so he can either take a throw at second in the event of a cutoff by Martinez and a Long overrun of the bag, be the cut-off man for a throw to 3rd (again if the ball is cut), or back-up the throw from right field in case of an overthrow, which is exactly what he did. This is how I was taught to play a ball like that, and how I taught my players.

I have no doubt the Yankees practiced this play in spring training, and worry (not a lot) about exactly what fundamentals Valentine is teaching in spring training. Hopefully, Bogar is running them.

Below is the video of the play in question. One last comment - Derek Jeter is much maligned for being a terrible defensive SS, and his range, especially up the middle, does and always has sucked. But he has the best grasp of fundamentals of any SS I have ever seen.
http://mlb.mlb.com/v...tent_id=3134880

This is more than fair. I always imagined Soriano as the cut-off man, and the other players staying in their respective "zones". Therefore, wouldn't Jeter hover around 2nd in order to cover for the potential double, Martinez covering the first base zone/act as the second cut-off man, and the pitcher being the player in zone that Jeter ends up in? It is possible that you have the pitcher cover second and Jeter take his place (watching the video, that is very possible).

There is a columnist in today's NY D News that claims that Jeter acts as the "rover" in this play, which would (I think) back up what you say.

[Frisbetarian]

This is more than fair. I always imagined Soriano as the cut-off man, and the other players staying in their respective "zones". Therefore, wouldn't Jeter hover around 2nd in order to cover for the potential double, Martinez covering the first base zone/act as the second cut-off man, and the pitcher being the player in zone that Jeter ends up in? It is possible that you have the pitcher cover second and Jeter take his place (watching the video, that is very possible).

There is a columnist in today's NY D News that claims that Jeter acts as the "rover" in this play, which would (I think) back up what you say.

At the risk of upsetting those who don't feel this play is worth discussing (I think it's a fascinating play), with the ball hit into the right field corner it was an easy double, especially with Long running. Jeter, therefore, does not need to cover the bag, but can and should (and did) go between the mound and 2nd, shaded slightly toward 1st. From that position he can watch the play develop and decide where he belongs. If the throw is on-line and can be cut he has plenty of time to head back to 2nd to cover the bag in case of an overrun by Long (and no play at the plate) - this is the most likely outcome of a play like this. If it is a bad throw that gets past both cut-off men, he can (and did) back it up. Tino Martinez has no need to be at first; there are no runners heading there. I have no idea why he was lined up where he was, so close to Soriano, but believe he should have been between first and home for the second cut-off. The pitcher's job on that play is to back up home, so there is no way he is covering second.

Very cool baseball play.

[jodyreeddudley78]

At the risk of upsetting those who don't feel this play is worth discussing (I think it's a fascinating play), with the ball hit into the right field corner it was an easy double, especially with Long running. Jeter, therefore, does not need to cover the bag, but can and should (and did) go between the mound and 2nd, shaded slightly toward 1st. From that position he can watch the play develop and decide where he belongs. If the throw is on-line and can be cut he has plenty of time to head back to 2nd to cover the bag in case of an overrun by Long (and no play at the plate) - this is the most likely outcome of a play like this. If it is a bad throw that gets past both cut-off men, he can (and did) back it up. Tino Martinez has no need to be at first; there are no runners heading there. I have no idea why he was lined up where he was, so close to Soriano, but believe he should have been between first and home for the second cut-off. The pitcher's job on that play is to back up home, so there is no way he is covering second.

Very cool baseball play.

Fris, you're right. The reason I assumed you would want someone at second is to get the third out in an overrun, and the likely run down. But Jeter can do that from the mound area. So, to bring this full circle, perhaps Bobby V labeled Jeter as "out of position" as a way of not saying that Tino blew his assignment.

[Pumpsie]

This is either subtlely brilliant or distressingly stupid. I have no idea which.

Sparky Anderson said the same thing.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

I respectfully disagree with the bold. There are an overwhelming number of baseball fans who feel Jeter was out of position on that play, and either lucky or amazingly intuitive. I think it was neither, and that Jeter was exactly where he was supposed to be, but Tino Martinez was not.

The game situation is runner on 1st, 2 outs in a 1 - 0 game in the 7th. Terrance Long hits a ball into the right field corner and with Giambi on first (why Howe didn't pinch run for him I'll never know) there is the possibility of a play at the plate. Soriano correctly goes out to take the deep cut off throw and Martinez should have positioned himself between home and first for a potential cut-off on a throw to the plate. Instead, he stayed near first very close to Soriano and out of position to make any kind of play. Jeter's responsibility on this play is to position himself between the mound and 2nd base, slightly to the 1st base side, so he can either take a throw at second in the event of a cutoff by Martinez and a Long overrun of the bag, be the cut-off man for a throw to 3rd (again if the ball is cut), or back-up the throw from right field in case of an overthrow, which is exactly what he did. This is how I was taught to play a ball like that, and how I taught my players.

I have no doubt the Yankees practiced this play in spring training, and worry (not a lot) about exactly what fundamentals Valentine is teaching in spring training. Hopefully, Bogar is running them.

Below is the video of the play in question. One last comment - Derek Jeter is much maligned for being a terrible defensive SS, and his range, especially up the middle, does and always has sucked. But he has the best grasp of fundamentals of any SS I have ever seen.
http://mlb.mlb.com/v...tent_id=3134880

I agree with Fris - I think the play was fundamentally sound. But my reasoning is a bit different.

My belief is that as a fielder not immediately involved in a play, your foremost thought needs to be "Where on the field should I be to have the greatest likelihood of being useful?" That which gets drilled into us as the "fundamentals" is simply the rote version of the answer to that question.

I'd rather have an aware ballplayer processing that question in real-time than a "fundamentally sound" player playing it by rote. It ought to end up being the same thing, but there are nuances in how the play develops that the former will act upon whereas the latter won't.

I still think it was the greatest play I've ever seen. I hate it that the guy who did it wore pinstripes, but there you go.

[YTF]

Wake me up when Bobby says something about one of the Sox players that is detrimental to the team or makes a managerial mistake with respect to the line-up, team construction or a game.

His comments about other teams are equal parts amusing and perplexing, but I don't see how they hurt the Red Sox or matter. Rex Ryan's commentary could provide amped up NFL players more motivation to beat the Jets. Several of the Jets players thought that was the case. I don't see that translating to baseball and, as a result, the only real impact of these Yankee comments is bunching the panties of some Yankees' fans and mediots.

I did say Rex Ryan LITE, however motivation does come in different forms for different guys. I'm sure the Yankees will tell you that losing 12 of 18 games to the Sox last year doesn't matter given the fact that they won the division, but how many of us or them believe that? And now they hear and read Valentine's commentss "I hate the Yankees" and "Tek beat up A-Rod" and his "opinion" on the Jeter play. Tell me these guys don't remember this shit. Tell me a head case like Joba Chamberlain (or any pitcher) really needs more reason to throw at guys in Sox uniforms. Scenario..........Joba drills Youkilis high, the benches clear, in the middle of the fray Chamberlain yells out "Oh yeah, I practice that play.", Youkilis returns to the dugout and kicks Valenitine's ass.

Run you old school training camp Bobby, try to get the ship back on course, but shut the fuck up.

[lexrageorge]

I did say Rex Ryan LITE, however motivation does come in different forms for different guys. I'm sure the Yankees will tell you that losing 12 of 18 games to the Sox last year doesn't matter given the fact that they won the division, but how many of us or them believe that? And now they hear and read Valentine's commentss "I hate the Yankees" and "Tek beat up A-Rod" and his "opinion" on the Jeter play. Tell me these guys don't remember this shit. Tell me a head case like Joba Chamberlain (or any pitcher) really needs more reason to throw at guys in Sox uniforms. Scenario..........Joba drills Youkilis high, the benches clear, in the middle of the fray Chamberlain yells out "Oh yeah, I practice that play.", Youkilis returns to the dugout and kicks Valenitine's ass.

Run you old school training camp Bobby, try to get the ship back on course, but shut the fuck up.

Well, if Youks does that, he's a bigger douche than anyone has given him credit for.

This blowup wasn't Valentine's fault; he can't control the New York media pussies overreacting to an out-of-context comment about some random play that happened 10 years ago, nor should he try. He doesn't work for them, and they're not even the local media.

[TheoShmeo]

I did say Rex Ryan LITE, however motivation does come in different forms for different guys. I'm sure the Yankees will tell you that losing 12 of 18 games to the Sox last year doesn't matter given the fact that they won the division, but how many of us or them believe that? And now they hear and read Valentine's commentss "I hate the Yankees" and "Tek beat up A-Rod" and his "opinion" on the Jeter play. Tell me these guys don't remember this shit. Tell me a head case like Joba Chamberlain (or any pitcher) really needs more reason to throw at guys in Sox uniforms. Scenario..........Joba drills Youkilis high, the benches clear, in the middle of the fray Chamberlain yells out "Oh yeah, I practice that play.", Youkilis returns to the dugout and kicks Valenitine's ass.

Run you old school training camp Bobby, try to get the ship back on course, but shut the fuck up.

My assumption is that players on the Yankees and Red Sox are fully amped up and motivated to play each other regardless of the record in any prior year or what anyone on either side might have said about the other. The constant media attention, the nationally televised games, the decades old rivalry, and the fact that they are in the same division ensures that.

Fundamentally, though, baseball is not a physical game like football or hockey where a player can channel his aggresion in the next hit. I'm not sure I buy the bulletin board motivation in football or hockey, either, but at least in those sports there's a natural outlet. Yeah, a moron like Joba can throw at someone's head, but is he really going to do that in response to something the manager said in February?

I also think that guys like Jeter and A-Rod are more bemused than angry when Bobby's comments are relayed to them. The clips of Jeter and quotes from A-Rod that I saw suggested that they thought it was kind of funny.

In short, this is a tempest in a teapot, and other than possibly taking the media's attention off the September collapse for the time being, will have little impact on anything.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 02 March 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Bobby V should STFU about a play that happened 11 years ago and worry about his own team. For crissakes. There was nothing to be gained from bringing it up and it makes him look stupid and cocksure.

BTW it snowed yesterday. Bobby's fault.

[TomRicardo]

I wonder how much Bobby V is going to ask Ortiz to bunt into the shift.