91 replies to this topic

[Frisbetarian]

The following is not a slam on Bobby V. Honest.

I would feel better that the ST changes meant something if I could be assured that 6 weeks of spring practice would lead to a consistent improvement over a 6 month season. Frankly I think that's a stretch; the players we have are the players we have, and they're terrible at fundamental baseball because they've been stupid and lazy and selfish. Such problems don't go away over the course of one spring.

Having Lester and Beckett do the "pitcher cover first" drill a few extra times this spring doesn't necessarily lead to fewer errors by the pitchers because the essential problem remains: these dimwits have cottage cheese in their heads where brains are supposed to be. Their actions last season merely reinforced that view.

Right now it's all talk. Talk is cheap. Play better. Get your heads out of your asses. That's all that's necessary.

I don't know that the practice will make them play better fundamental baseball, although it can't hurt, but holding players accountable for mental errors on the field certainly will. Call out Lackey (privately) when he neglects to cover first, talk to Crawford after he misses a cut-off man, make the players aware that poor fundamental play will not be accepted anymore. Maybe Tito did this, but the fact that some players made the same mistakes over and over (pitchers not backing up bases was egregious last year) leads me to believe he did not, especially in the last few seasons.

If this new attention to details on the field in spring training leads to an awareness of the importance of playing the game right, then it should definitely have a positive effect on the team.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I don't know that the practice will make them play better fundamental baseball, although it can't hurt, but holding players accountable for mental errors on the field certainly will. Call out Lackey (privately) when he neglects to cover first, talk to Crawford after he misses a cut-off man, make the players aware that poor fundamental play will not be accepted anymore. Maybe Tito did this, but the fact that some players made the same mistakes over and over (pitchers not backing up bases was egregious last year) leads me to believe he did not, especially in the last few seasons.

If this new attention to details on the field in spring training leads to an awareness of the importance of playing the game right, then it should definitely have a positive effect on the team.

Or maybe he did and they're just immense shitheads. We certainly have plenty of evidence for the latter.

[TomRicardo]

I am fairly sure if Bobby V saved a kid from a burning car, SJH's first comment would be "Who says the kid won't grow up to be the Antichrist?"

Edit - This team has been absolutely brutal to start over the last couple of years. I can't think of a player who has been markedly better in April yet I can think of numerous names of players having absolutely miserable Aprils.

Edited by TomRicardo, 16 February 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It's a fair point.

[Laschelle Tarver]

Maybe in the midst of all of these drills, they will stumble upon the one that helps to keep Buchholz in the rotation for the full season again, and makes one of Doubront/Silva/Padilla/Cook a competent fifth starter.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I am fairly sure if Bobby V saved a kid from a burning car, SJH's first comment would be "Who says the kid won't grow up to be the Antichrist?"

Edit - This team has been absolutely brutal to start over the last couple of years. I can't think of a player who has been markedly better in April yet I can think of numerous names of players having absolutely miserable Aprils.

David Ortiz was much, much better in April of 2011 than he was in either of the two previous Aprils.

[TomRicardo]

David Ortiz was much, much better in April of 2011 than he was in either of the two previous Aprils.

Yes his .768 OPS last April was awe inspiring in comparison to .524 ops in 2010 and .623 ops in 2009. #titotime

[TomRicardo]

Last year the team collectively had .711 OPS in April and never dipped below .804 in any month after that.
2010 the team only once dipped below its April OPS (in August)

The pitching was at its worst in 2009 and 2010 in April. And only the team's terrible Sept saved it from the same fate 2011.

It looks like this team has been phoning it in Spring training for a couple of years.

[nvalvo]

I can't think of a player who has been markedly better in April yet I can think of numerous names of players having absolutely miserable Aprils.

Jed Lowrie.

[twothousandone]

I would feel better that the ST changes meant something if I could be assured that 6 weeks of spring practice would lead to a consistent improvement over a 6 month season.

Agreed. But "changes" had to happen anyway, right? Bobby V. wants to stop at 1:30, Francona used to end at 1:45 or something like that.

I certainly have no idea if Francona ran spring the way 90% of the rest of the teams do, but it seems the Sox this year are doing things differently, which you have to when you have new people in place. Should Bobby call Tito and ask how he ran spring?

Once you agree some things will change, then it becomes what things. And these seem a bit minor in the broader scheme -- it doesn't seem to entail arriving earlier and staying later. So what's the big deal?

“It’s because there’s a lot of lazy people in the game today,” Valentine said.

Yikes. Now I see what people fear. He should have given an innocous comment, at most, if not no comment at all.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

David Ortiz was much, much better in April of 2011 than he was in either of the two previous Aprils.

So in a thread about getting the Sox to play better fundamental baseball out of the gates, your skepticism is justified by...a DH-only's mediocre batting line during his contract year? Was Papi a better baserunner last April, too?

I'm on-board with this report. Based on anecdotal evidence and results, I think the Sox under Hale's ST program were underprepared to play at their true talent level until a few weeks into the season. Can't prove it statistically, but it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

[reggiecleveland]

Yikes. Now I see what people fear. He should have given an innocous comment, at most, if not no comment at all.

No kidding.I just hope Bobby wins a lot before his moth gets him in trouble.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So in a thread about getting the Sox to play better fundamental baseball out of the gates, your skepticism is justified by...a DH-only's mediocre batting line during his contract year? Was Papi a better baserunner last April, too?

I'm on-board with this report. Based on anecdotal evidence and results, I think the Sox under Hale's ST program were underprepared to play at their true talent level until a few weeks into the season. Can't prove it statistically, but it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Except for one of their best players having a significantly better April than both his teammates and his own past Aprils.

Look, this is likely much ado about nothing, and it probably can't hurt. But they're not going to suddenly become a strong fundamental baseball team because their players are simply not strong fundamental, intelligent players. All the ST practices in the world aren't going to change that. Any changes for the better are likely to be very, very minor. Spring training can't cure stupid, and that's been the number one problem for the club over the past couple of years in regards to the basics.

[MannysDestination]

Except for one of their best players having a significantly better April than both his teammates and his own past Aprils. Look, this is likely much ado about nothing, and it probably can't hurt. But they're not going to suddenly become a strong fundamental baseball team because their players are simply not strong fundamental, intelligent players. All the ST practices in the world aren't going to change that. Any changes for the better are likely to be very, very minor. Spring training can't cure stupid, and that's been the number one problem for the club over the past couple of years in regards to the basics.

No one's claiming that it will 'cure stupid', that it will fundamentally change the team, or that it is an astounding revelation.

What many people are claiming is that it is much more likely to help than hurt at the margins, that it will enstill some discipline that has been sorely lacking, and that this might, maybe, possibly, potentially help improve the early season struggles that have been a hallmark of the team for several years in a row.

Do you disagree with that? Because otherwise it just seems like Bobby V griping for the sake of it.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

Frankly, I'm pretty happy with what I'm reading about their new ST regimen. I'm all for hustle, I'm all for drilling in strong fundamentals.

And it pisses me off to no end that I'm reading about it.

If you're the new sheriff in town, the way to make your mark is to bring in some bad guys and win some gunfights. It's not to have your deputy run into the nearest saloon and tell everyone, "Gee willikers! Sheriff Valentine is one tough hombre. He's got some stuff up his sleeve - the lowlife in this town better shape up." He's not running for office, he's managing a ballclub.

IMO there was no better way for him to get off on the wrong foot with this team than by going public with this stuff. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when you say in the press that

The emphasis is to play the game correctly in all areas

the implication is that his new charges haven't been playing the game right. It's insulting. Even if it's true, do it in private.

The effect is already evident. Now you've got the follow-on articles about how some guys are grumbling about the new workout regimen. This is energy wasted that could have and should have been focused on preparing to win ballgames.

Edit: formatting

Edited by ToeKneeArmAss, 16 February 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

No one's claiming that it will 'cure stupid', that it will fundamentally change the team, or that it is an astounding revelation.

What many people are claiming is that it is much more likely to help than hurt at the margins, that it will enstill some discipline that has been sorely lacking, and that this might, maybe, possibly, potentially help improve the early season struggles that have been a hallmark of the team for several years in a row.

Do you disagree with that? Because otherwise it just seems like Bobby V griping for the sake of it.

I agree it should help. Some. I am disagreeing on the degree it will help. It can't hurt, but it's no panacea and people pointing to this as some sort of turned corner are likely to be disappointed.

FWIW, and I have no idea how typical this is, last week Salty, Kalish, Lavarnway, Miller, Lester, and Dice K, at the very least, were already in camp working out and Salty was hitting in the cages.

EDIT: and I completely agree with TKAA. Talk is cheap. Win some more games this year.

[Plympton91]

Look, this is likely much ado about nothing, and it probably can't hurt. But they're not going to suddenly become a strong fundamental baseball team because their players are simply not strong fundamental, intelligent players. All the ST practices in the world aren't going to change that. Any changes for the better are likely to be very, very minor. Spring training can't cure stupid, and that's been the number one problem for the club over the past couple of years in regards to the basics.

Hmm, and what do Punto, Aviles, Shoppach, Sweeney, and Ross all have in common? Besides lacking the statistical bonafides of all those lunkheads you're complaining about.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

They're all shitty white players?

[TomRicardo]

Except for one of their best players having a significantly better April than both his teammates and his own past Aprils.

Look, this is likely much ado about nothing, and it probably can't hurt. But they're not going to suddenly become a strong fundamental baseball team because their players are simply not strong fundamental, intelligent players. All the ST practices in the world aren't going to change that. Any changes for the better are likely to be very, very minor. Spring training can't cure stupid, and that's been the number one problem for the club over the past couple of years in regards to the basics.

How is .768 OPS in a month something to hang your hat on with Ortiz? You can't hate Bobby V that much.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

How is .768 OPS in a month something to hang your hat on with Ortiz? You can't hate Bobby V that much.

Because he had had such terrible starts in each of the previous two seasons that there were mentions of him being benched or released.

[TomRicardo]

Jed Lowrie.

This is so incredibly awesome.

Lowrie had a good spring as he fought for a job most of the Spring.

[TomRicardo]

Because he had had such terrible starts in each of the previous two seasons that there were mentions of him being benched or released.

Yes, .768 beats .524 and .623 but all three are horrendous starts for Ortiz especially when looking at his numbers for the rest of those seasons. Point is he has sucked out of the gate for three years. This team has. Three years under Tito's steady hand.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yes, .768 beats .524 and .623 but all three are horrendous starts for Ortiz especially when looking at his numbers for the rest of those seasons. Point is he has sucked out of the gate for three years. This team has. Three years under Tito's steady hand.

According to the chart in the first post of the thread, it's really just been two, the two years Hale's run the camp. Their record after 20 games in 2009 was the same as it was in 2008 and 2007.

[TomRicardo]

In 2009 they started terribly then ripped off 6 wins as starting April 15. Each year it seemed to take a little longer to knock off the rust.

Edited by TomRicardo, 16 February 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I agree it should help. Some. I am disagreeing on the degree it will help. It can't hurt, but it's no panacea and people pointing to this as some sort of turned corner are likely to be disappointed.

I predict that this year's first two weeks of the season will be better than last year's. Take that to the bank.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I predict that this year's first two weeks of the season will be better than last year's. Take that to the bank.

Bold prediction...can't really get much worse than the first two weeks of last season, can it? Using the same personnel, same coaching, and same spring training methods as last spring probably would still yield better results than what we saw in the first two weeks last year.

[OilCanShotTupac]

Frankly, I'm pretty happy with what I'm reading about their new ST regimen. I'm all for hustle, I'm all for drilling in strong fundamentals.

And it pisses me off to no end that I'm reading about it.

If you're the new sheriff in town, the way to make your mark is to bring in some bad guys and win some gunfights. It's not to have your deputy run into the nearest saloon and tell everyone, "Gee willikers! Sheriff Valentine is one tough hombre. He's got some stuff up his sleeve - the lowlife in this town better shape up." He's not running for office, he's managing a ballclub.

IMO there was no better way for him to get off on the wrong foot with this team than by going public with this stuff. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when you say in the press that



the implication is that his new charges haven't been playing the game right. It's insulting. Even if it's true, do it in private.

The effect is already evident. Now you've got the follow-on articles about how some guys are grumbling about the new workout regimen. This is energy wasted that could have and should have been focused on preparing to win ballgames.

Edit: formatting

Bingo. This is exactly the bullshit I was tired of when I posted this: http://sonsofsamhorn...n/page__st__127

I have no desire to read any of this.

Edited by OilCanShotTupac, 16 February 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

I agree it should help. Some. I am disagreeing on the degree it will help. It can't hurt, but it's no panacea and people pointing to this as some sort of turned corner are likely to be disappointed.

FWIW, and I have no idea how typical this is, last week Salty, Kalish, Lavarnway, Miller, Lester, and Dice K, at the very least, were already in camp working out and Salty was hitting in the cages.

I think the emphasis on more efficient and disciplined habits in spring is about a lot more than just practicing baseball fundamentals. It's about establishing that this is going to be a more efficient and disciplined team in general.

These guys better all already have great baseball skills, and better have been working all winter on improving/developing them. These professional athletes better be in great shape, and have spent their winter months attending to their conditioning with the right recovery and rebuilding strategies.

Spring Training it isn't a really long camp - athletes are really made in the off-season. If you show up at camp unprepared in 2012 - you're already way behind. Spring Training, esppecially with a new manager, is about establishing a team culture - not just ensuring that Beckett and Lester get the right number of PFP reps. How are you going to have a focused, disciplined season if you have a lax spring?

From what I have observed, baseball practice and training habits do seem a little less intense in terms of volume and intensity than I have seen in some other sports. There is WAY too much standing around. It`s sometimes tough, because you`re often trying to shoehorn individual skill work like hitting into a team practice setting, but anything you can do to get a guy in and out in say 2 hours instead of hanging around for 4 hours to do the same work is great. I`d rather have a guy do a 2 hour real workout full of actual work followed by 2 hours on his sofa watching General Hospital than spend 4 hours getting mentally drained by hanging around in the sun at the ballpark doing his 2 hours worth of work.

[Rasputin]

I predict that this year's first two weeks of the season will be better than last year's. Take that to the bank.

I predict that will be true and people will be bitching about how it isn't good enough.

[Rasputin]

I have no desire to read any of this.

Don't. My life has gotten better since I stopped reading this crap daily.

[Kull]

If past is prologue, let's see how Valentine's previous teams fared in April:

Bobby V's April W-L Records

Team	Year	April W	April L
Rangers	1986	7	12
Rangers	1987	9	10
Rangers	1988	8	11
Rangers	1989	17	5
Rangers	1990	11	9
Rangers	1991	8	8
Rangers	1992	13	11
Mets	1997	12	14
Mets	1998	13	12
Mets	1999	14	9
Mets	2000	16	10
Mets	2001	10	15
Mets	2002	16	10
Total	13 Seasons	154	136
Avg		11.8	10.5
	+ .500	7
	- .500	5

Take his first three seasons out of the mix and it's not that bad, actually.

[Sprowl]

Lurker Mack writes:

Some of what is being said in this thread (not naming names here) reminds me of the truly brilliant Homer Simpson quote: "You tried your best and failed miserably. The lesson is: never try."

Perhaps the following link to: "Of Mind and Muscle: How Top Performers Become More Efficient with Practice" http://www.forbes.co...-with-practice/ might suggest an additional reason why practicing the basics, on a regular basis, might be of some marginal value.

I'm all in favor of the occasional refresher course in baseball odds and strategy too. Getting caught off base with two out, stretching to a triple at the wrong time, missing the cutoff man, among others, have plagued the Red Sox during the Tito era. Just because these are professional players doesn't mean that some don't forget some of the basics.

[JBill]

Everyone on the bus:

He said the spring training rules for the team will be similar to last season but said players will not be able to drive to away games on their own. They will have to take the team bus.
"The manager and coaches will drive and at times there might be a player there because at times there might be a (B) game that I’m gonna watch and the bus leaves early," Valentine said.

http://www.boston.co..._may_be_lo.html

Olney:

Bobby V. in a Teflon position as he makes changes, like bus rules: If they win, he'll be given credit. If they lose, players/Theo get blamed.

https://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/171714423222833152

Buster's not reading SoSH...

Edited by JBill, 20 February 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yeah, I made that same point Buster did a while back. No lose situation for Bobby V right now. I mean, it's hardly revolutionary, it's pretty predictable.

[JBill]

Yeah, I made that same point Buster did a while back. No lose situation for Bobby V right now. I mean, it's hardly revolutionary, it's pretty predictable.

I think Buster's wrong though, that it's the players/Theo that will get the blame. I don't think Valentine has much of a honeymoon period at all, as evidenced by this thread.

[rembrat]

No, he is right. The players will get blamed for not buying into the new changes and Theo will get blamed because 75% of the roster was assembled by him.

[E5 Yaz]

No, he is right. The players will get blamed for not buying into the new changes and Theo will get blamed because 75% of the roster was assembled by him.

We're already seeing this spin in the media, on both counts

[lexrageorge]

The players have no right to complain; they brought this upon themselves.

[rembrat]

No player has complained.

[EdRalphRomero]

Frankly, I'm pretty happy with what I'm reading about their new ST regimen. I'm all for hustle, I'm all for drilling in strong fundamentals.

And it pisses me off to no end that I'm reading about it.

If you're the new sheriff in town, the way to make your mark is to bring in some bad guys and win some gunfights. It's not to have your deputy run into the nearest saloon and tell everyone, "Gee willikers! Sheriff Valentine is one tough hombre. He's got some stuff up his sleeve - the lowlife in this town better shape up." He's not running for office, he's managing a ballclub.

IMO there was no better way for him to get off on the wrong foot with this team than by going public with this stuff. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when you say in the press that



the implication is that his new charges haven't been playing the game right. It's insulting. Even if it's true, do it in private.

The effect is already evident. Now you've got the follow-on articles about how some guys are grumbling about the new workout regimen. This is energy wasted that could have and should have been focused on preparing to win ballgames.

Edit: formatting

While this may be true for a football coach, the reality for a manager of the Boston Red Sox is that your leverage does not consist of threats of more laps (what could Bobby V do if Beckett refused really?) or of cutting a player (this isn't the NFL). Bob V represents the one real threat to a team like this, a guy who doesn't respect the "keep it in the clubhouse" "it is all about the players" "protect them with you" trifecta of Torre/Francona management. The threat implicit in his statements is not "I'm gonna kick your ass" but "I'm going to tell the press you are fat and lazy and mailing it in. I am going to embarass you because I don't worry about embarassing myself."

I don't like Valentine and I do not endorse the above strategy, but I think it is pretty clear what is going on.

[Sprowl]

"I'm going to tell the press you are fat and lazy and mailing it in. I am going to embarass you because I don't worry about embarassing myself."

I don't know how well the strategy will work, but it will give the chattering classes plenty of material. That includes SoSH too, of course. We root for the dirty laundry.

[Corsi]

Bobby speaks: No beer in clubhouse; no beer on plane for final leg of trips.