185 replies to this topic

[Hendu for Kutch]

If there was legit interest I suspect you would have at least heard something concrete--a team name, a report of a particular offer by an unidentified team, something. All we heard was his agent claiming unspecified teams wanted him.

There was this. I don't know if the source was Moss' agent or not though.

http://twitter.com/#!/kguregian/status/98757765010432001

[Judge Mental13]

Alright so last year, Randy got offers from teams but he turned them all down, but this year, he's ready to play for league minimum?

Does this not sound strange to anyone else?

[Toe Nash]

Because he has. His production dropped off from age 30 to 32, then he crapped out on three teams at age 33--the Titans being the most disturbing because there weren't any reported personality clashes, he just got benched after not producing-and was out of the league at age 34.

Someone asked Moss when he announced he was returning about the Titans locker room, and he made a face and said something like "I'm not even going there."

Just because it wasn't reported doesn't mean there weren't problems.

[Super Nomario]

Wasn't it his mental approach that got him kicked out? Not his lack of being physically able to play at an NFL level?

It was both.

I go back to the game against the Jets week 2. The Jets single-covered Moss, and Brady looked for him, throwing to him 10 times. One resulted in a spectacular touchdown catch; 8 were incomplete. And that was with Revis playing only the first half (and not at 100%). Moss just couldn't get open against single coverage anymore.

[WayBackVazquez]

His production dropped off from age 30 to 32, then he crapped out on three teams at age 33--the Titans being the most disturbing because there weren't any reported personality clashes, he just got benched after not producing-and was out of the league at age 34.

No, you're right. The Titans were one big happy family. And Randy just wasn't producing. It probably had nothing to do with the fact that this is what he got from his QBs in his first 3 games as a Titan:

V. Young/K. Collins: 18-38, 143 Yards, 1 INT.
Rusty Smith: 17-38, 138 Yards, 3 INT.
K. Collins: 14-32, 169 Yards, 2 INT.

It probably was all Randy's fault.

In his first game in Minnesota, against probably the league's best pass defense, he caught 4 passes for 81 yards and a 37-yard TD where he burned Cromartie.

His attitude was shitty at the end in each of the three places, but the idea that he couldn't play anymore is simply wrong.

[WayBackVazquez]

It was both.

I go back to the game against the Jets week 2. The Jets single-covered Moss, and Brady looked for him, throwing to him 10 times. One resulted in a spectacular touchdown catch; 8 were incomplete.

Actually, two were intercepted--one on a Brady overthrow, and one was tipped--and three were dropped. If you want to criticize his hands, fine. Cromartie did a good job on him in the second half, but I think he proved he could still get open a few weeks later as a Viking.

[Shelterdog]

No, you're right. The Titans were one big happy family. And Randy just wasn't producing. It probably had nothing to do with the fact that this is what he got from his QBs in his first 3 games as a Titan:

V. Young/K. Collins: 18-38, 143 Yards, 1 INT.
Rusty Smith: 17-38, 138 Yards, 3 INT.
K. Collins: 14-32, 169 Yards, 2 INT.

It probably was all Randy's fault.

In his first game in Minnesota, against probably the league's best pass defense, he caught 4 passes for 81 yards and a 37-yard TD where he burned Cromartie.

His attitude was shitty at the end in each of the three places, but the idea that he couldn't play anymore is simply wrong.

Thanks for setting me straight! He had 28 catches in a season and get ditched or benched by three teams and then was out of the league the following year but but obviously he was great!

We're clearly at the point where we have to agree to disagree.

[WayBackVazquez]

We're clearly at the point where we have to agree to disagree.

I guess so. He'll have about 800 yards receiving this year, and you can be secure in the knowledge that noone could possibly have seen it coming.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Except you, obviously.

I'll believe more of this "Randy is back!" stuff if it wasn't all coming from his agent. 800 yards is a huge reach, IMO; he's immensely talented but his head is not exactly in the right place much of the time.

[soxfan121]

800 yards is a huge reach, IMO; he's immensely talented but his head is not exactly in the right place much of the time.

I agree - if he returns, the Saints (or whoever) would be smart to use him as the primary target in the red zone. He's still 6'4", can probably still jump at 75% of what he used to and certainly still has the athleticism to come away with jump balls and fades. Plaxico was able to do this after being out of the game longer - 8 TDs and 600 yards would be the benchmark. And if he were playing for the Saints, his head wouldn't be as much a concern. Win and target him for a TD every week and he'll probably be a good soldier. Just don't use him as a decoy.

[Corsi]

Alright so last year, Randy got offers from teams but he turned them all down, but this year, he's ready to play for league minimum?

Does this not sound strange to anyone else?

He's said he had off-field issues to work out and they weren't football related, FWIW.

[BucketOBalls]

Alright so last year, Randy got offers from teams but he turned them all down, but this year, he's ready to play for league minimum?

Does this not sound strange to anyone else?

Not entirely.

One possible explanation is he was looking for more money last year, but didn't get it.

My guess is Randy really wants a ring, and isn't interested in playing for a team that doesn't give him that chance. No competitor would offer him much money last year and he didn't want to take 6M from the Bills, so this year he is swallowing his pride and willing to take the minimum. But I think he really wants to pick his destination.

I can see him ending up in the same place as Peyton Manning(depending on where he goes).

[Super Nomario]

Actually, two were intercepted--one on a Brady overthrow, and one was tipped--and three were dropped. If you want to criticize his hands, fine. Cromartie did a good job on him in the second half, but I think he proved he could still get open a few weeks later as a Viking.

When did he prove he could still get open? When he had 4 catches for 81 yards in 10 targets against the Jets in a Vikings loss?

[Mystic Merlin]

Moss had 393 yards receiving in 2010, with Tom Brady and Brett Favre throwing to him half the season...and he's going to come back after 18 mos. out of football and post 800? The guy literally couldn't get open by late 2010, to the point where he was riding the bench for most of Tennessee's snaps, and why would we expect this to change?

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Moss had 533 yds receiving for 3 TD's in 2006 before coming here and everyone said he was washed up then. I'm not trying to say that he's going to score 20 TD's next year, but to be productive in a pass heavy offense isn't far fetched. What did Plax do last year after being out for twice as long as Randy, 600 yds 8 TD's? I'm very confident that Moss can do better than that. As long as his heads in the game.

[Mystic Merlin]

Different situations. I won't get into the fact that he is 35 and not 29, because that appears not to be a factor to some, but I think it's pretty well-accepted that Randy sucked in Oakland because he shut it down, not because he couldn't cut it anymore. In 2010, however, he didn't get open on anything resembling a consistent basis, despite having two all-time QBs throwing him the football over 8 games. I'm not sure if you guys watched him that year, but it was clear to me that he didn't have the jets anymore - if Brett Favre doesn't throw you the ball deep, then something is probably wrong, no?

[Shelterdog]

I guess so. He'll have about 800 yards receiving this year, and you can be secure in the knowledge that noone could possibly have seen it coming.

If he has 800 yards or anything like that then yeah, you're right, I'm wrong, and you get 564 internet points.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

In 2010 I without a doubt in my mind thought that he just shut down. Not once did I think that he couldn't do it physically anymore. He was pissed at the Pats for not paying him so Brady throwing it to him didn't matter. He was too busy throwing a fit. As far as Minnesota and Tennessee I don't think he gelled with either team and had no connection with any of the QB's he played with. I thought it was all in his head then, and I still think that now.

[Mystic Merlin]

In 2010 I without a doubt in my mind thought that he just shut down. Not once did I think that he couldn't do it physically anymore. He was pissed at the Pats for not paying him so Brady throwing it to him didn't matter. He was too busy throwing a fit. As far as Minnesota and Tennessee I don't think he gelled with either team and had no connection with any of the QB's he played with. I thought it was all in his head then, and I still think that now.

Sounds like a lot of horseshit to me re. Minnesota, but I guess we'll see. Whatever mental hijinks went down, I submit, were a symptom of his diminishing skills and, thus, targets. And you can make all the excuses in the world, but Brady wasn't looking his way often, and when he was he was forcing the ball into coverage...because Moss wasn't beating his guy.

BTW, I'm willing to take the Jimmy Fund Challenge on Moss, if there are any takers.

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 08 March 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[WayBackVazquez]

BTW, I'm willing to take the Jimmy Fund Challenge on Moss, if there are any takers.

I'm listening.

[Mystic Merlin]

I'm listening.

50 bucks? I.e., 800 yards or more = I pay; 0-799 = you pay?

[WayBackVazquez]

50 bucks? I.e., 800 yards or more = I pay; 0-799 = you pay?

So you're saying he'll be a failure if he catches for 799 yards? Um, okay. I'll take 50 on that if you also take $50 on TDs. I win if he scores 8 or more TDs. 8 receiving TDs were good enough for T11 in the NFL last year.

Bet's off if he's not active for at least 12 games.

[Mystic Merlin]

So you're saying he'll be a failure if he catches for 799 yards? Um, okay. I'll take 50 on that if you also take $50 on TDs. I win if he scores 8 or more TDs. 8 receiving TDs were good enough for T11 in the NFL last year.

Bet's off if he's not active for at least 12 games.

Well, we need a benchmark, right? And you threw out 800 yards earlier, so that's what I went with. How else would we measure this?

Anyways, I'll take the $50 on the 8 receiving TDs.

[tims4wins]

Isn't Moss being active an integral part of this whole thing? I mean, if he's not on a team, then he can't be active, but then by definition WBV wouldn't lose the bet, which seems stupid.

[WayBackVazquez]

Well, we need a benchmark, right? And you threw out 800 yards earlier, so that's what I went with. How else would we measure this?

Anyways, I'll take the $50 on the 8 receiving TDs.

That's fine. I said he'll have "about 800 yards," so if he gets 790 or even 750, I would think that I was right. But I'm happy to take the bet at 800 and 8.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Sounds like a lot of horseshit to me re. Minnesota, but I guess we'll see. Whatever mental hijinks went down, I submit, were a symptom of his diminishing skills and, thus, targets. And you can make all the excuses in the world, but Brady wasn't looking his way often, and when he was he was forcing the ball into coverage...because Moss wasn't beating his guy.

BTW, I'm willing to take the Jimmy Fund Challenge on Moss, if there are any takers.

Why's that? He went from an organization like the Pats playing with Tom Brady and for Belichick, to an organization like the Vikings playing with Favre and for Brad Childress... How disappointed would you be ,organization aside, if we traded Brady and Belichick for Favre and Childress?

[WayBackVazquez]

Isn't Moss being active an integral part of this whole thing? I mean, if he's not on a team, then he can't be active, but then by definition WBV wouldn't lose the bet, which seems stupid.

Then tell you what, you don't have to take the bet.

I'm not making bets on guys who aren't even under contract without some contingency that they actually sign and play. I wouldn't even make a bet on Brady passing yards without such a contingency.

[Shelterdog]

Then tell you what, you don't have to take the bet.

I'm not making bets on guys who aren't even under contract without some contingency that they actually sign and play. I wouldn't even make a bet on Brady passing yards without such a contingency.

Then you don't actually believe he's going to get 800 yards. The risk of Moss not getting signed, being a healthy scratch, or getting hurt are all major reasons I think he doesn't have a big year.

If you're willing to do the bets without the cop-out clause, I'm your huckleberry.

[WayBackVazquez]

Then you don't actually believe he's going to get 800 yards. The risk of Moss not getting signed, being a healthy scratch, or getting hurt are all major reasons I think he doesn't have a big year.

If you're willing to do the bets without the cop-out clause, I'm your huckleberry.

That's great. You're friggin awesome. But I haven't offered you any bet. I accepted one from Merlin. NFL teams don't need to pay injured guys on non-guranteed contracts, , and I don't make player performance bets without them, either. You want to say I don't actually believe he'll get 800 yards, have at it, champ. But I guess I didn't believe Brady would break Marino's record last year, either.

I bet $100 Tom Brady surpasses Dan Marino's single-season passing yardage record in the 2011-12 season.*

* He must start 16 games.
* He need not hold the new record, i.e. if someone like Brees or Rivers also breaks it, I still win if Brady throws for at least 5,085 yards.

Edited by WayBackVazquez, 08 March 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Shelterdog]

EDIT: Delete. This isn't going anywhere worthwhile.

Edited by Shelterdog, 08 March 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[tims4wins]

EDIT: Delete. This isn't going anywhere worthwhile.

And Randy Moss being active for at least 12 games in 2012 is a much bigger if than Brady starting all 16 in 2011, considering that Moss did not even play last year.

[WayBackVazquez]

The point is, I can say that you don't really believe Randy Moss can't perform anymore, you just think he won't sign with a team. It's my bet, my conditions.

You have a lot to say about other people's bets, but when I look at the first page, I don't see "Shelterdog" having actually put his money where his mouth is on anything.

[WayBackVazquez]

And Randy Moss being active for at least 12 games in 2012 is a much bigger if than Brady starting all 16 in 2011, considering that Moss did not even play last year.

Instead of worrying about what other people bet AND DONATE TO THE JIMMY FUND, maybe you should worry about ponying up for your membership.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Jesus Christ Wayback, stop acting like a cock.

[tims4wins]

Instead of worrying about what other people bet AND DONATE TO THE JIMMY FUND, maybe you should worry about ponying up for your membership.

I've paid, the system is just screwed up.

How about we put money on whether Randy Moss is on an NFL roster in week 1?

[WayBackVazquez]

I've paid, the system is just screwed up.

How about we put money on whether Randy Moss is on an NFL roster in week 1?

Absolutely. Name it.

[Shelterdog]

The point is, I can say that you don't really believe Randy Moss can't perform anymore, you just think he won't sign with a team. It's my bet, my conditions.

You have a lot to say about other people's bets, but when I look at the first page, I don't see "Shelterdog" having actually put his money where his mouth is on anything.

I just offered you a bet like six minutes ago.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

I have both won and lost bets in the PYMWYMI thread with all proceeds going to the Jimmy Fund and I'm current on my membership. Will it mean more coming from me if I tell you that you are backtracking on your previous statement by putting a 'needs to be active for 12 games' qualifier into your bet?

He'll have about 800 yards receiving this year, and you can be secure in the knowledge that noone could possibly have seen it coming.

The hordes of people who don't see it coming are largely banking on the fact that he won't be active on any team's roster for much of the season. Regardless, MM accepted so your terms, so it doesn't really matter. But you are backtracking from your previous statement. Which is kind of the whole point of the Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is thread.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 08 March 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[tims4wins]

Absolutely. Name it.

$25, Randy Moss will not be active on an NFL roster in week 1 of the 2012 regular season

[WayBackVazquez]

I have both won and lost bets in the PYMWYMI thread with all proceeds going to the Jimmy Fund and I'm current on my membership. Will it mean more coming from me if I tell you that you are backtracking on your previous statement by putting a games played qualifier into your bet?

Sure, as long as you're willing to bet me $100 that he won't play 12 games this year. It's not that difficult to understand--the NFL is a long season with many injuries. I am willing to take and make bets on player performance at even money as long as they contain contingencies for the chance someone gets hurt. If someone would rather discount the odds, I'd take that too. But otherwise, when I say Wes Welker will have 100 catches this year, or Tom Brady will throw for 5,000 yards, or Randy Moss will have about 800 yards receiving, I mean it. I'm just not going to bet on it without either a contingency or a discount based on injury.

[WayBackVazquez]

$25, Randy Moss will not be active on an NFL roster in week 1 of the 2012 regular season

Done.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Sure, as long as you're willing to bet me $100 that he won't play 12 games this year.

I'm down for $50 that Randy Moss won't play in 12 games this year.

[quint]

I'm down for $50 that Randy Moss won't play in 12 games this year.

I'll gladly cover the other $50, WayBack.

[WayBackVazquez]

I'll gladly cover the other $50, WayBack.

Done and done.

[FL4WL3SS]

Jesus Christ Wayback, stop acting like a cock.

That's in insult to cocks everywhere.

[quint]

I should add that I will absolutely love it if Randy comes back and is an effective player in the league again. He is the one of the guy I allow myself to be completely irrational about when it comes to what he can do, because there isn't another player I've enjoyed watching more since he came into the league. I still vividly remember him single-handedly tearing Green Bay's secondary a new asshole during his first MNF game. I mean fuck, the dude not only made Dante Culpepper seem like a viable starting QB in the league, but an MVP candidate for christ sakes.

That being said, a lot of quotes being reported, and will continue to be leaked I'm sure until he signs with a team, is pretty similar to the same noise generated during New England's 2010 training camp and once the games started, he was cooked. He was still dragging two defenders down the field with him, because, well he still was Randy fucking Moss, but he sure as shit wasn't getting open. Like, at all. And the whole "he was a malcontent, so that's why he underperformed" argument holds zero water. Dude was angling for one last big payday and four games in it was clear he wasn't close to an elite player anymore.

He's done. Just my opinion.

[DannyDarwinism]

I should add that I will absolutely love it if Randy comes back and is an effective player in the league again. He is the one of the guy I allow myself to be completely irrational about when it comes to what he can do, because there isn't another player I've enjoyed watching more since he came into the league. I still vividly remember him single-handedly tearing Green Bay's secondary a new asshole during his first MNF game. I mean fuck, the dude not only made Dante Culpepper seem like a viable starting QB in the league, but an MVP candidate for christ sakes.

That being said, a lot of quotes being reported, and will continue to be leaked I'm sure until he signs with a team, is pretty similar to the same noise generated during New England's 2010 training camp and once the games started, he was cooked. He was still dragging two defenders down the field with him, because, well he still was Randy fucking Moss, but he sure as shit wasn't getting open. Like, at all. And the whole "he was a malcontent, so that's why he underperformed" argument holds zero water. Dude was angling for one last big payday and four games in it was clear he wasn't close to an elite player anymore.

He's done. Just my opinion.

I agree with all of this, including the conclusion, but I do think its worth it for some teams to kick the tires on the chance that his falling off the cliff in 2010 was at least in part due to motivation. If he's healthy, if he's been working hard in the gym, and if he's put in an evironment in which he's more likely to stay motivated, I could see him being productive in a limited role. Granted, that's a lot of "ifs", and I think it's safe to assume that the old (young) Randy is done and gone, but in an NFL where Plaxico Burress had 600 yards and 8 TDs with Mark Sanchez throwing him the ball last year, Randy still has to have some value as a red zone target, no? He's only 6 months older than Plax, with better hands, and I don't know how he can possibly be slower than Plax looked last year.

[SoxFanInCali]

I should add that I will absolutely love it if Randy comes back and is an effective player in the league again. He is the one of the guy I allow myself to be completely irrational about when it comes to what he can do, because there isn't another player I've enjoyed watching more since he came into the league. I still vividly remember him single-handedly tearing Green Bay's secondary a new asshole during his first MNF game. I mean fuck, the dude not only made Dante Culpepper seem like a viable starting QB in the league, but an MVP candidate for christ sakes.

The play I always remember is when he caught a Hail Mary at around the 15 on the last play of the half, then while getting tackled by 3 guys made a blind lateral to the running back, who caught it in stride and took it in for a touchdown. The combination of speed, jumping ability, hands, and awareness he had at his peak was just sick.

[quint]

I agree with all of this, including the conclusion, but I do think its worth it for some teams to kick the tires on the chance that his falling off the cliff in 2010 was at least in part due to motivation. If he's healthy, if he's been working hard in the gym, and if he's put in an evironment in which he's more likely to stay motivated, I could see him being productive in a limited role. Granted, that's a lot of "ifs", and I think it's safe to assume that the old (young) Randy is done and gone, but in an NFL where Plaxico Burress had 600 yards and 8 TDs with Mark Sanchez throwing him the ball last year, Randy still has to have some value as a red zone target, no? He's only 6 months older than Plax, with better hands, and I don't know how he can possibly be slower than Plax looked last year.

Not to address you specifically, but the "Randy's motivation" line of reasoning when trying to explain his 2010 performance needs to come to an end. He was in a contract year, period. He had one of the great quarterbacks of his generation throwing him the ball. If he had went out and performed like he had previously been able to there would have been teams lined up to offer him boucoup dollars. If there was anything left he would have produced at any of his three stops, then laughed his way to the bank.

And saying Randy will succeed because of what Burress did last year doesn't make any sense to me. Even if they were exact replicas of one another, which they are not, then you're pretty much saying you expect Burress to be the same player in March of 2013 as he was in November of 2011. That's just not realistic. The only comparison anyone should reasonably use is what Moss did in 2010, then expect two years of decline.

[DannyDarwinism]

Not to address you specifically, but the "Randy's motivation" line of reasoning when trying to explain his 2010 performance needs to come to an end. He was in a contract year, period. He had one of the great quarterbacks of his generation throwing him the ball. If he had went out and performed like he had previously been able to there would have been teams lined up to offer him boucoup dollars. If there was anything left he would have produced at any of his three stops, then laughed his way to the bank.

And saying Randy will succeed because of what Burress did last year doesn't make any sense to me. Even if they were exact replicas of one another, which they are not, then you're pretty much saying you expect Burress to be the same player in March of 2013 as he was in November of 2011. That's just not realistic. The only comparison anyone should reasonably use is what Moss did in 2010, then expect two years of decline.

All of this is fair, but I'll just clarify a couple of points on my "motivation" reference. Moss had a great year in 2009 and I don't know what caused him to drop off of a cliff in 2010. He was in the final year of his contract that year, and he made noise about not feeling wanted in the pre-season, so I suppose his psyche could have had something to do with his preparation and subsequent. But yeah, it was a contract year, and he should've been amply motivated to get in shape and produce on the field, so I find it more likely that he was just another year older, with more mileage on his legs and because of this, he could no longer get the separation he needed to be effective.

But I don't know that Moss at that stage of his career would have been hitting the gym more in the off-season due to his contract status. I don't know that playing for a good team with great QB would've done it either. Moss is a tough guy to figure out, and I won't try to ascribe reasons behind his motivation level. But if a team has reason to believe that something other than simply being irrevocably cooked accounted for his drop-off from 2009 to 2010, and if that team also has reason to believe that he's been working as hard as a guy his age who wants to remain relevant in the NFL should, then the off chance that you get 60% of 2009 Moss is worth taking a shot at, depending on the cost. Again, there's several long-shot "ifs" there, but if I'm a team in need of a WR, I would want to bring the guy in for a work-out and see how he looks.