100 replies to this topic

[collings94]

http://espn.go.com/n...ired-blame-game

[dylanmarsh]

http://espn.go.com/n...ired-blame-game

It really annoys me when folks start threads like this. No opinion. No insight. Just a link to ESPN. Brilliant.

[djbayko]

Well, he asked for it...
#LebronsFault

Lebron's comment about people blaming him for the grocery store being out of milk is just ridiculous. No, Lebron, people hate you for real things that you actually say and do. Given how uneducated and socially immature he is, he really should have gone to college for a few years. Then he still would have made millions, been one of the all time greats, and perhaps universally loved. It's too late for that, so he'd be better served just never opening his mouth. Over time, people would foget how much of a jerk he is, and his play would become his only legacy.

[Toe Nash]

It really annoys me when folks start threads like this. No opinion. No insight. Just a link to ESPN. Brilliant.

It really annoys me when folks make replies like this. No opinion on the topic. No insight. Just a complaint. Brilliant.

LeBron has a point, as I don't think his tweet was a problem. but he really has no idea how to deal with the PR side of things. He should hold himself back from saying much and let his play speak for him. But he hasn't done that thus far so it seems unlikely he'll learn.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Eh, I think he has a valid point.

If anything, it feels like Perkins is trying to deflect attention away from Griffin dunking on him and onto the universally hated LeBron by calling James out specifically. Everybody in the world tweeted about that dunk, along with plenty of current NBA players.

At this point, the hatred for LeBron feels completely overblown. Yep, he's a grandstanding douchebag, just like 90% of modern athletes. It's not unique to him and the level of hatred he now endures is in no way proportional to the "crime" of "The Decision".

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 09 February 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[fairlee76]

I hate LeBron as much as the next guy, but Perk getting his panties in a bunch about LeBron congratulating a guy for a nice play is ridiculous. And, speaking of intelligence, does Perk realize that twitter was not an option when MJ played? This is another non-story revolving around two immature athletes and their wounded egos/feelings.

[Sprowl]

Perkins is right: James is a petulant, self-centered child.

Everybody else is right: Perkins is still embarrassed by being posterized by Griffin's dunk.

Both of them should have kept their mouths shut.

[collings94]

LeBron is someone that should probably stay away from Twitter, he has A LOT of PR problems. I remember one time on ESPN, Trent Dilfer was ripping Peyton Manning's play after a game, and Lebron Tweeted saying that Dilfer shouldn't be so critical of Peyton, because Dilfer himself could never been as good as Manning. This isn't really like that, but he should really stay out of stuff that doesn't concern him.

[SemperFidelisSox]

The irony is that he has some of the best PR people in the world at Nike and CAA at his disposal, but keeps fucking up.

[Marbleheader]

And on the heels of this coming out Thursday, it gets worse on Friday:

LeBron was waiting alone in the backcourt when fan Bob Moore made a comment to LeBron about Delonte West and LeBron's mom…According to Moore, LeBron said "The only reason you talk sh!t is because you know I can't come off the court right now and beat your ass...Also according to Moore, LeBron continued "But if I had a free pass, I'd kick your ass right now…Moore replied "I'm right here baby. Let's go" before security stepped in.

http://sports.yahoo....-153104602.html

You cannot, as a professional athelete, let fans get in your head like that. He is a mess right now, I almost feel bad for the douchebag.

[BoredViewer]

I don't really have a problem with either his tweet or his comments back to the fan.

What's the big deal?


If he walked off the floor to fight the fan... or let the other team drive by him for a dunk, while he was arguing... that's another thing.

[Kutcher Era Youth]

I actually do feel sorry for him. You say as a professional athlete you can't let fans get in your head, but does buying a ticket to a game give you the right to say anything you want to anyone on the court? What if Bob Moore just stood ten feet away from him and called him the N-word 50 times? Is that okay?

Ripping on someone's family members is about as inflammatory as it gets. The only thing I take away from this is that Bob Moore is a piece of shit.

[Myt1]

You cannot, as a professional athelete, let fans get in your head like that. He is a mess right now, I almost feel bad for the douchebag.

He's having an absolutely incredible season, and he happens to have been right. How, exactly, is he a mess?

[collings94]

He's having an absolutely incredible season, and he happens to have been right. How, exactly, is he a mess?

I think he means that socially, Lebron James is a mess. He always seems to say the wrong thing and he spouts off random stuff like on Monday when he said he was tired of the blame game and even during the game last night. Who cares if he is right? By letting a fan affect your mental state, you are hurting your team. And that's bad.

[maufman]

I actually do feel sorry for him. You say as a professional athlete you can't let fans get in your head, but does buying a ticket to a game give you the right to say anything you want to anyone on the court? What if Bob Moore just stood ten feet away from him and called him the N-word 50 times? Is that okay?

Ripping on someone's family members is about as inflammatory as it gets. The only thing I take away from this is that Bob Moore is a piece of shit.

Agreed. Indeed, stepping off the floor and beating the shit out of Bob Moore (whoever that is) for insulting his mother might have been the best thing LBJ could have done for his tattered image -- who wouldn't admire that at least a little?

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I think he means that socially, Lebron James is a mess. He always seems to say the wrong thing and he spouts off random stuff like on Monday when he said he was tired of the blame game and even during the game last night. Who cares if he is right? By letting a fan affect your mental state, you are hurting your team. And that's bad.

This is ridiculous. So, the only player in the league with a 30+ PER is hurting his team because he let a fan effect his mental state? Frankly, I think it's actually refreshing that he's starting to stand up to the criticism. If this had been Kobe or Paul Pierce the story would be about how they're fierce competitors and Bob Moore is an asshole who shouldn't be allowed to attend NBA games anymore.

[Nick Kaufman]

It is indeed ridiculous.

I think he means that socially, Lebron James is a mess. He always seems to say the wrong thing and he spouts off random stuff like on Monday when he said he was tired of the blame game and even during the game last night. Who cares if he is right? By letting a fan affect your mental state, you are hurting your team. And that's bad.

I am no Lebron fan by any means, but at this point it always seems that regardless of what he do or says, some smart-aleck will say he's doing the wrong thing. What if he hadn't responded at all to the fan? Well, in that case Lebron is a basketball Dukakis, amirite?

And what's the proof that the fan affected his mental state? Did he play worse after the incident? If he did, can someone prove that he played worse because of the incident? This is nonsense, pure and simple.

[Marbleheader]

Don't get me wrong, the fan is an absolute ass. I just don't see how engaging in an 'I should beat you up' argument with a fan is the best way to go. He'd have been much better off having the team take care of the fan. He was giving the fan exactly what he wanted. I had front row seats behind the basket during the 80's as a kid. I heard just about everything. Guys usually either ignored it or had security remove the guy. Some guys like Barkley would fire back with something clever, make everyone laugh, and make the fan look like an idiot. It has nothing to do with his play. His words/actions this week just come off to me as being childish, that's all. Though, expecting him to be mature is a stretch. Not sure many of us would be if we lived his life either.

[fairlee76]

You cannot, as a professional athelete, let fans get in your head like that. He is a mess right now, I almost feel bad for the douchebag.

How is this reflected in his play? Side note: if LeBron is a mess right now (assuming you mean his play on the court), I wish Pierce, Rondo, or KG could be a mess. If you mean he is an immature, thin-skinned brat, then I agree with you. But I don't think telling a fan to STFU when said fan is talking about his family is evidence that the guy is a mess.

[collings94]

It is indeed ridiculous.


I am no Lebron fan by any means, but at this point it always seems that regardless of what he do or says, some smart-aleck will say he's doing the wrong thing. What if he hadn't responded at all to the fan? Well, in that case Lebron is a basketball Dukakis, amirite?

And what's the proof that the fan affected his mental state? Did he play worse after the incident? If he did, can someone prove that he played worse because of the incident? This is nonsense, pure and simple.

If your taking the time to think about what a fan is saying and how it is hurting you, your taking your focus off of the game. How many times does Lebron hear trash talk from fans? You think, after 8 years in the league he would have learned to not respond to fans.

[collings94]

This is ridiculous. So, the only player in the league with a 30+ PER is hurting his team because he let a fan effect his mental state? Frankly, I think it's actually refreshing that he's starting to stand up to the criticism. If this had been Kobe or Paul Pierce the story would be about how they're fierce competitors and Bob Moore is an asshole who shouldn't be allowed to attend NBA games anymore.

A big difference is a guy like Kobe wouldn't respond to a fan. Do you think Kobe cares what opposing fans think? What Kobe has been through, a divorce, the shaq drama, that rape case, is a lot worse than anything Lebron has been through. So if Kobe hears so much smack, why doesn't he respond? Because Kobe Bean Bryant is a killer. Kobe doesn't give a fuck about the other teams fans, or even his own, because the only thing Kobe wants to do is WIN THE GAME. And by responding to on court criticism, you hurt your teams chances of WINNING THE GAME.

[Sprowl]

A big difference is a guy like Kobe wouldn't respond to a fan. Do you think Kobe cares what opposing fans think? What Kobe has been through, a divorce, the shaq drama, that rape case, is a lot worse than anything Lebron has been through. So if Kobe hears so much smack, why doesn't he respond? Because Kobe Bean Bryant is a killer. Kobe doesn't give a fuck about the other teams fans, or even his own, because the only thing Kobe wants to do is WIN THE GAME. And by responding to on court criticism, you hurt your teams chances of WINNING THE GAME.

Some players play better with a chip on their shoulder. I think you need to demonstrate that Lebron is actually hurting his team's chances of winning the game before you can be so sure of what goes on in players' minds and that it actually matters.

It's entirely conceivable to me that Lebron James is a self-involved, sensitive prick while Kobe Bryant is a self-involved, insensitive prick, and that their respective states of (in)sensitivity have zero impact on what happens on the court.

[collings94]

Some players play better with a chip on their shoulder. I think you need to demonstrate that Lebron is actually hurting his team's chances of winning the game before you can be so sure of what goes on in players' minds and that it actually matters.

It's entirely conceivable to me that Lebron James is a self-involved, sensitive prick while Kobe Bryant is a self-involved, insensitive prick, and that their respective states of (in)sensitivity have zero impact on what happens on the court.

Maybe because Kobe is an insensitve prick, he doesn't care about anything but winning. That's what makes him a money player in the clutch, while Lebron, who is sensitive, shrinks away.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Maybe because Kobe is an insensitve prick, he doesn't care about anything but winning. That's what makes him a money player in the clutch, while Lebron, who is sensitive, shrinks away.

If Kobe's .402% shooting in clutch situations makes him money and LeBron's .436% shooting in clutch situations is indicative of him shrinking away, give me shrinking away every day of the week.

Again, you need to prove that LeBron is hurting his team's chances of winning games for reasons beyond the fact that you dislike him.

[collings94]

How about this stat: Kobe 5, Lebron 0. You can throw "clutch" stats at me all day, but that doesn't prove things like Bird saying that Lebron would be more fun to play with, but you would want to go to war with Kobe. Think about it, with 45 seconds left on the clock in a tie game, would you rather have Kobe or Lebron on your side of the court? Watch some of the heat's potential game winning/tieing shots from the last two years and then watch the Lakers. Then tell me who is more "clutch".

[BigSoxFan]

How about this stat: Kobe 5, Lebron 0. You can throw "clutch" stats at me all day, but that doesn't prove things like Bird saying that Lebron would be more fun to play with, but you would want to go to war with Kobe. Think about it, with 45 seconds left on the clock in a tie game, would you rather have Kobe or Lebron on your side of the court? Watch some of the heat's potential game winning/tieing shots from the last two years and then watch the Lakers. Then tell me who is more "clutch".

Just curious, how "clutch" was Kobe during Game 7 of the 2010 NBA Finals?

[collings94]

Clutch enough to win and hold Ray Allen to the worst shooting night of his career.

[Zereck]

Didn't Kobe guard Rondo the majority of that game?

[collings94]

I believe they switched over to a more zone based defense after the first few games because they had Fisher on Allen and he was getting worn out by the multiple screens that are set for Allen on basically every play.

[ivanvamp]

Just curious, how "clutch" was Kobe during Game 7 of the 2010 NBA Finals?

Jordan may have been the most clutch player ever, but even by his own admission, he missed more game-winning shots than he ever made. The point is that every clutch player has his not-so-clutch days.

If you ask me who I'd rather have right now, LeBron or Kobe, I'd take LeBron. But if you ask me who do I want on my team in the 4th quarter of a playoff game, I'd rather have Kobe.

Though, of course, I wouldn't mind either one. :-)

[collings94]

Jordan may have been the most clutch player ever, but even by his own admission, he missed more game-winning shots than he ever made. The point is that every clutch player has his not-so-clutch days.

If you ask me who I'd rather have right now, LeBron or Kobe, I'd take LeBron. But if you ask me who do I want on my team in the 4th quarter of a playoff game, I'd rather have Kobe.

Though, of course, I wouldn't mind either one. :-)

Lebron may very well be a better player then Kobe right now; but the fact that Kobe, 35 with bad knees and a fucked up hand, can still make an argument that he is better is incredible.

[ivanvamp]

Lebron may very well be a better player then Kobe right now; but the fact that Kobe, 35 with bad knees and a fucked up hand, can still make an argument that he is better is incredible.

No doubt. Kobe will go down as one of the very best players of all time. Guy is amazing.

Jordan (age 34): 28.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 25.2 per
Kobe (age 33, not 35): 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.2 spg, 25.1 per

At this stage of their careers, they are remarkably similar. Remarkably.

[collings94]

Don't forget Kobe has a lot more games on his odometer then MJ.

[JakeRae]

Lebron may very well be a better player then Kobe right now; but the fact that Kobe, 35 with bad knees and a fucked up hand, can still make an argument that he is better is incredible.

You can't really make that argument. At least, not based on objective evidence. Being able to give voice to a claim does not equate to making an argument. Lebron is clearly the superior player.

[collings94]

If you ran a poll "Who would you rather have on your team in the last two minutes of a game: Lebron or Kobe?" Kobe Bryant would win, no doubt about it, and to say that you cannot make an arguement that Kobe is a better player is ridiculos.

[JakeRae]

If you ran a poll "Who would you rather have on your team in the last two minutes of a game: Lebron or Kobe?" Kobe Bryant would win, no doubt about it, and to say that you cannot make an arguement that Kobe is a better player is ridiculos.

If Kobe is better than Lebron, in any context, can you produce some evidence to support that claim besides the ever so reliable wisdom of the crowds or the even stronger appeal to championships each has won as part of a team?

Lebron is a more efficient scorer than Kobe. Lebron shoots better from the field than Kobe. Lebron and Kobe are roughly equivalent shooters from 3 (Kobe wins on career percentage but Lebron's is rising and Kobe's is falling). Kobe is a better free throw shooter than Lebron. But, using this season as an example, it has taken Kobe 5.4 more shots per game than Lebron to score 0.7 more points per game. Lebron has 1.8 more free throw attempts per game. If we assume that 40% of free throws attempted use a possession (rough estimate but it should be close enough), Lebron has scored 0.7 fewer points per game despite using 4.7 fewer possessions per game (the free throws close the gap a little bit). That's a huge difference.

After scoring, it gets even less close. Lebron has a 1.8 assist/game advantage. He has 0.45 assist/turnover advantage. He has a 0.35 blocks per game advantage. He has a 2.4 rebounds per game advantage. And, he has a 0.58 steals/game advantage.

Now, basketball isn't entirely about statistics. There are other things that matter. But, when every single measure of player performance points to one player being superior to another and the only case for the inferior player is that people "think" he is better, we should not be questioning the superiority of the first player, we should be questioning why people continue to persist in flawed thought patterns despite all the evidence being to the contrary.

Edit: I used per game stats because they are easier to look up. But, if people are concerned about a per/minute comparison, that hurts Kobe even more since he averages 38.3 MPG to Lebron's 36.9.

Edited by JakeRae, 16 February 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[collings94]

If Kobe is better than Lebron, in any context, can you produce some evidence to support that claim besides the ever so reliable wisdom of the crowds or the even stronger appeal to championships each has won as part of a team?

Lebron is a more efficient scorer than Kobe. Lebron shoots better from the field than Kobe. Lebron and Kobe are roughly equivalent shooters from 3 (Kobe wins on career percentage but Lebron's is rising and Kobe's is falling). Kobe is a better free throw shooter than Lebron. But, using this season as an example, it has taken Kobe 5.4 more shots per game than Lebron to score 0.7 more points per game. Lebron has 1.8 more free throw attempts per game. If we assume that 40% of free throws attempted use a possession (rough estimate but it should be close enough), Lebron has scored 0.7 fewer points per game despite using 4.7 fewer possessions per game (the free throws close the gap a little bit). That's a huge difference.

After scoring, it gets even less close. Lebron has a 1.8 assist/game advantage. He has 0.45 assist/turnover advantage. He has a 0.35 blocks per game advantage. He has a 2.4 rebounds per game advantage. And, he has a 0.58 steals/game advantage.

Now, basketball isn't entirely about statistics. There are other things that matter. But, when every single measure of player performance points to one player being superior to another and the only case for the inferior player is that people "think" he is better, we should not be questioning the superiority of the first player, we should be questioning why people continue to persist in flawed thought patterns despite all the evidence being to the contrary.

Edit: I used per game stats because they are easier to look up. But, if people are concerned about a per/minute comparison, that hurts Kobe even more since he averages 38.3 MPG to Lebron's 36.9.

No doubt those are some great stats, and I'm even admitting that LeBron is a better player then Kobe. Stats are great indicators of value, but sometimes I think statistics are given too much value and a lot of the intangibles are overlooked. For 46 minutes Lebron is one of the most statistically and physically dominant players on the court. But in those last two minutes, it seems like he hasn't masterd closing out games. Take last season, I can recall a game winning shot situation for the Heat. So who took the last shot? Eddie House. Do you think Kobe would let Eddie House take the last shot? Hell no, if House got the ball Kobe would steal the ball from him and toss up his own shot. Lebron doesn't have that killer instict that is so important for a superstar player to have. It's what seperates Russell from Chamberlain, Jordan from Drexler, and Olajuwon and Ewing. Lebron has been a statistics beast, he fills up the box score like nobody else, but he lacks the intangibles to truly be great.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

No doubt those are some great stats, and I'm even admitting that LeBron is a better player then Kobe. Stats are great indicators of value, but sometimes I think statistics are given too much value and a lot of the intangibles are overlooked. For 46 minutes Lebron is one of the most statistically and physically dominant players on the court. But in those last two minutes, it seems like he hasn't masterd closing out games. Take last season, I can recall a game winning shot situation for the Heat. So who took the last shot? Eddie House. Do you think Kobe would let Eddie House take the last shot? Hell no, if House got the ball Kobe would steal the ball from him and toss up his own shot. Lebron doesn't have that killer instict that is so important for a superstar player to have. It's what seperates Russell from Chamberlain, Jordan from Drexler, and Olajuwon and Ewing. Lebron has been a statistics beast, he fills up the box score like nobody else, but he lacks the intangibles to truly be great.

By this reasoning, you'd rather have Carmelo than Lebron as well. Exceptional game-closer.

As a Knicks fan, as much I enjoy watching Carmelo hit a game-winner, I'd much rather have games put away and not even worry about the last two minutes. Which is what you get from Lebron far more than Kobe, and why those 46 minutes you are discounting matter so much.

[Myt1]

How about this stat: Kobe 5, Lebron 0. You can throw "clutch" stats at me all day, but that doesn't prove things like Bird saying that Lebron would be more fun to play with, but you would want to go to war with Kobe. Think about it, with 45 seconds left on the clock in a tie game, would you rather have Kobe or Lebron on your side of the court? Watch some of the heat's potential game winning/tieing shots from the last two years and then watch the Lakers. Then tell me who is more "clutch".

Well, no statistic could every prove something as much as Bird saying it, right?

If your taking the time to think about what a fan is saying and how it is hurting you, your taking your focus off of the game. How many times does Lebron hear trash talk from fans? You think, after 8 years in the league he would have learned to not respond to fans.

A big difference is a guy like Kobe wouldn't respond to a fan. Do you think Kobe cares what opposing fans think? What Kobe has been through, a divorce, the shaq drama, that rape case, is a lot worse than anything Lebron has been through. So if Kobe hears so much smack, why doesn't he respond? Because Kobe Bean Bryant is a killer. Kobe doesn't give a fuck about the other teams fans, or even his own, because the only thing Kobe wants to do is WIN THE GAME. And by responding to on court criticism, you hurt your teams chances of WINNING THE GAME.

Someone needs to tell Reggie Miller that he was hurting his team on May 7, 1995.

We can save you some time here. From here on out, this thread can only go one of two ways. You can either stop being a fool or trade your shovel in for a backhoe.

Edited by Myt1, 16 February 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[TomRicardo]

LeBron hopes to end his career in Cleveland if they will have him.

"Hey guys took off during my prime but now I am back and want to uselessly pad my stats. LOVE ME AGAIN."

[CJM]

LeBron hopes to end his career in Cleveland if they will have him.

"Hey guys took off during my prime but now I am back and want to uselessly pad my stats. LOVE ME AGAIN."

Here's the full article: Lebron holds no grudges.

Yet again, it seems like his heart is in a reasonable and good place in trying to answer the reporter's questions honestly. And yet again, he's got such a tin ear and such atrocious media instincts that he comes off like an insulated boob.

[TomRicardo]

He thinks he can be friends with Gilbert again

"Hey I screwed you out of millions and completely sideswiped you doing it making you look like an absolute fool. But bygones, right man?"

[collings94]

By this reasoning, you'd rather have Carmelo than Lebron as well. Exceptional game-closer.

As a Knicks fan, as much I enjoy watching Carmelo hit a game-winner, I'd much rather have games put away and not even worry about the last two minutes. Which is what you get from Lebron far more than Kobe, and why those 46 minutes you are discounting matter so much.

Perhaps your right, all I wanted to point out here was that Lebron doesn't have the nerve to compete with Kobe when the game is on the line. It's a flaw in his game that is really the only thing preventing him from winning a championship.

[JakeRae]

Perhaps your right, all I wanted to point out here was that Lebron doesn't have the nerve to compete with Kobe when the game is on the line. It's a flaw in his game that is really the only thing preventing him from winning a championship.

Yes. We know you believe this. Can you support it?

The single greatest thing keeping Lebron from winning a championship is that he's played on bad (other than himself) or poorly constructed teams. If the Lakers had traded Kobe for the rights to draft Lebron, this conversation would not be happening.

[collings94]

Yes. We know you believe this. Can you support it?

The single greatest thing keeping Lebron from winning a championship is that he's played on bad (other than himself) or poorly constructed teams. If the Lakers had traded Kobe for the rights to draft Lebron, this conversation would not be happening.

What do you want me to do, construct a highlight reel of Kobe hitting a bunch of game winners and Lebron missing them? Here are two pretty significant examples: Last years finals when he scored not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven, but eight! Eight points in game (5?). And the year before in the Eastern Semi's when he had the better team against an old, injured Celtics squad and was non-existent in the two deciding games.

[JakeRae]

What do you want me to do, construct a highlight reel of Kobe hitting a bunch of game winners and Lebron missing them? Here are two pretty significant examples: Last years finals when he scored not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven, but eight! Eight points in game (5?). And the year before in the Eastern Semi's when he had the better team against an old, injured Celtics squad and was non-existent in the two deciding games.

Take a look at that Cavs roster and come back in here and tell me with a straight face that they were better than the Celtics. The second option on that Cavs team was Mo Williams. Shaq was their second leading scorer for the series. Outside of Lebron, that team was garbage. The only reason you think they were better that year was because Lebron was so dominant during the season that they won 61 games despite the garbage roster they assembled around him.

And, are you really arguing that Lebron's 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 3 steals and a block was being non-existent in Game 6? He did turn the ball over 9 times in that game and only shot 8/21 from the floor, so it wasn't all roses for him in that game. But, even with the poor shooting and turnovers, that is a monster game.

I could build a highlight real of Lebron nailing 4th quarter shots to win games and Kobe missing them too. Your evidence is all anecdotal. What I am challenging you to do is come up with actual (data based) evidence of Lebron struggling in big games or clutch situations. A quick perusal of his playoff performances doesn't lead me to believe he does. He's definitely had bad games in the playoffs. Everyone has bad games in the playoffs. Overall, he is still dominant and better than Kobe, or anyone else currently playing the game.

Does Kobe putting up a 22 point, 3 rebound, 1 assist, 1 steal performance on .318 shooting in game 7 of the 2007/2008 Finals make him unclutch? Despite the point total, that was a terrible performance and his team got blown out in the biggest game of the season. It doesn't. It's just a single bad game against a great team. It happens to everyone.

Basically, I want you to either stop making unsubstantiated claims or produce evidence to substantiate them.

[JakeRae]

I want to add that I am in no way certain that Lebron is not unclutch. I cannot support an assertion either way. However, in the absence of evidence toward a player being clutch or unclutch, I operate out of the default assumption that clutch tends to be a narrative construct rather than something real and measurable. That's not to say that a real clutch skill (or lack thereof) does not exist in some players. I believe it does. But, the burden of proof rests firmly on the shoulders of those who wish to base an argument around the "clutch" skill.

[swingin val]

What do you want me to do, construct a highlight reel of Kobe hitting a bunch of game winners and Lebron missing them? Here are two pretty significant examples: Last years finals when he scored not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven, but eight! Eight points in game (5?).

It was game 4. And perhaps you could take the 5 seconds to look up these things if you are going to post this ridiculous stuff.

[LesterFan]

2010-2011 "clutch" stats. 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

Production per 48 minutes of clutch time

Kobe: 38.8 FGA, .402 FG%, 16.8 FTA, 49.8 PPG
Lebron: 27.3 FGA, .436 FG%, 23.1 FTA, 45.1 PPG

http://www.82games.c...011/CSORT11.HTM

So it took Kobe 11 and a half shots just to score 4.7 more points. You can factor in the difference in free throws but the difference is still significant. Lebron shot at a higher percentage, and if you check out the link, was assisted in a fewer percentage of plays, rebounded better and had less turnovers - all keys to securing a game. But if you define "clutch" by hitting or missing a buzzer beater, I don't know what to say. Lebron does a better job of making sure the game is put away beforehand.

And since I don't like Kobe let me just mention his 6-24 shooting night in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Edited by LesterFan, 16 February 2012 - 10:39 PM.

[ivanvamp]

I think it's very difficult to define "clutch". This page (http://www.82games.c...011/CSORT11.HTM) defines a "clutch" situation as: "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points". But it doesn't take into account the importance of a game. Is a close February game vs. Golden State, when you have a 10-game lead in the division the same as a close 7th game of a playoff series? Clearly not. But this page doesn't distinguish between the two.

Nonetheless, I'll post these #'s anyway. Again, the definition of clutch here is: "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points".

Per 48 minutes of "clutch" time (2010-11 season):
Kobe: 38.8 fga, 40.2% fg, 16.8 fta, 87% ft, 49.8 pts, 8.5 reb, 7.6 ast, 5.5 to, 0.3 blks, 1.8 stl
James: 27.3 fga, 43.6% fg, 23.1 fta, 84% ft, 45.1 pts, 11.2 reb, 4.9 ast, 3.8 to, 0.7 blks, 1.4 stl

That seems like a wash to me, statistically. Kobe is more likely to take shots in those last 5 minutes than LeBron is, but LeBron makes more. The difference in field goal attempts is what accounts for the difference in clutch points. Given the lower assist number as well, I conclude that, in 2010-11, Kobe simply had the ball more in clutch moments than LeBron did. That's probably because LeBron had Dwayne Wade sharing the clutch possessions, while Kobe essentially took them over completely for LA.

Long story short, from these numbers, it's tough to tell which of the players is more "clutch" (or at least was, in 2010-11).

EDIT: Holy crap, I was literally typing this and sending it at the same time as LesterFan. Sorry for the double post.

Edited by ivanvamp, 16 February 2012 - 10:49 PM.