186 replies to this topic

[Three10toLeft]

You are so clueless you deserve all the shit you get from this ... and more

Recovering alcoholics/addicts have sponsors. Having someone called your "accountability partner" might just be a fancier way of putting it. But it sounds like a glorified babysitter.

Well of course that's not "all (you're) saying.". You made fun of him for depending on an "accountability partner.". In fact, kicking addictions is incredibly difficult even for very motivated people and yes that needs to be said because you were dismissive of that fact in your earlier posts. Perhaps you have never seen someone try to kick an addiction, even cigarettes. That's how you come across.


Anyway, if I had a company whose performance depended on a particular employee who was paid millions and millions of dollars, and said employee had a severe addiction problem, I would strongly consider utilizing every available resource in order to increase the odds of keeping him clean.


Edit:sp

Honestly, I've been around only one person who kicked an addiction. My father was a pack a day smoker for about 30 years and quit cold turkey one day. He eventually passed away from lung cancer. I'm not naive enough to believe it's that simple, he had an incredible amount of will power to do so, and it's not the norm.

If this was the first know incident with Hamilton, I would have been more sympathetic. At this point it's his second relapse that the public has been made aware of, odds are likely that their have been more than what we know about. At a certain point you just have to let him go and ruin his life. Who cares?

I don't feel like it's heartlessness. You can only do so much for somebody who so willfully wants to throw away the opportunities that have been presented to him. Their are millions of people suffering from things that they didn't bring upon themselves. Josh Hamilton inflicted himself with this "disease". I don't feel bad for him. At all.


Edit: And as someone who works in the food industry, and has so for the past few years, I can tell you that if I - or other colleagues - refused to serve 'alcoholics', clinically diagnosed or not, you wouldn't have a job. I think if you're looking for a bartender to refuse service to a known alcoholic, you're shit outta luck.

Edited by Three10toLeft, 03 February 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Orel Miraculous]

Fuck Josh Hamilton's life..... the fuck do I care?

This is ultimately the fundamental disagreement between us I guess. Silly me.

[Corsi]

I don't feel like it's heartlessness. You can only do so much for somebody who so willfully wants to throw away the opportunities that have been presented to him. Their are millions of people suffering from things that they didn't bring upon themselves. Josh Hamilton inflicted himself with this "disease". I don't feel bad for him. At all.

You really think it's willful?

[Judge Mental13]

This is ultimately the fundamental disagreement between us I guess. Silly me.

So you would put Josh Hamilton's health and well being ahead of your own? Good for you, I guess. I'm sure Josh Hamilton appreciates your brave hypothetical sacrifice.

Edited by Judge Mental13, 03 February 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[rembrat]

Not sure what Ron Washington has to do with getting contract leverage over Hamilton. But, are the only possible results a binary set of circumstances? Fine and dandy or lying in the gutter? Even if you believe that, do you think every MLB team that might be interested believes that? He's a risk. And by that risk being highlighted, the market for his services in MLB is diminished.

I think it's cute that you think this somehow gives the Rangers leverage over Hamilton. You know, I think this is baseball's first alcoholic.

Fans generally care more about this stuff than owners do which is why I mentioned Washington. The Rangers stood by him and they'll stand by Hamilton. The only risk that will diminish interest in Hamilton is his history of injuries on the field not off it.

[Average Reds]

You really think it's willful?

You really think it's not? (See? Two can play.)

I understand that the compulsion associated with alcoholism and drug addiction is so strong that even armed with the knowledge that their behavior will hurt and possibly kill them, the addict will continue to engage in that behavior. That's the nature of compulsion, and it's among the most difficult things to overcome in life.

At the same time, let's be clear about this. Josh Hamilton does not have cancer or any sort of condition that has been inflicted upon him. He has a condition that he inflicts on himself, through his behavior. This fact does not lesson the severity of his condition, but regardless of the insidious nature of compulsive behavior, there is no question that his actions are willful - he admitted as much today when he talked about how he was "sneaky" in hiding the fact that he had a few drinks from Kinsler.

If you're going to argue that Hamilton has no choice in the matter and that his actions are not willful, then you are making an argument that he needs to be institutionalized. I disagree with this. To me, he's a grown man with an awful condition who is nevertheless responsible for his behavior.

[Lose Remerswaal]

You really think it's willful?

The choice he made not to replace his babysitter accountability partner was willful.

[InstantKarmma]

I'm sure Josh Hamilton appreciates your brave hypothetical sacrifice.

That brave hypothetical sacrifice isn't really about Hamilton.

[Corsi]

You really think it's not? (See? Two can play.)

I think it was probably willful to begin with, but once addicted, I think any relapses he'd had are probably less than willful.

[fairlee76]

I think it was probably willful to begin with, but once addicted, I think any relapses he'd had are probably less than willful.

Yeah, and 310 arguing that depression is wildly different from substance addiction makes very clear to me exactly where he is coming from. Depression = no choice, substance abuse = choice. Knowing what I know about both populations, the element of choice is not one I associate with either.

[teddywingman]

How fun would it be to watch a SoSH bartender refuse service to Josh Hamilton? I feel like there should be a reality show or something.

[soxhop411]

How fun would it be to watch a SoSH bartender refuse service to Josh Hamilton? I feel like there should be a reality show or something.

If I was the bartender, i wouldn't outright not serve him, but i would tell, him i know he has an addiction issue (since its widely known) and that I am worried that if i serve you you would relapse and things could fall apart for you. I would try and persuade him to not drink

[Three10toLeft]

If I was the bartender, i wouldn't outright not serve him, but i would tell, him i know he has an addiction issue (since its widely known) and that I am worried that if i serve you you would relapse and things could fall apart for you. I would try and persuade him to not drink

He's not a child who needs the consequences laid out for him.

He knows what he's doing. To the point of knowing to act "sneaky" in the process.

And I'm pretty sure that Josh Hamilton/Bartender reality show is part of the Fox Sports Southwest deal. How else did they get fox to pony up 20 billion?

[glennhoffmania]

Boy, this discussion escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast.

[SumnerH]

Milk would've been a good choice.

[E5 Yaz]

Recovering alcoholics/addicts have sponsors. Having someone called your "accountability partner" might just be a fancier way of putting it. But it sounds like a glorified babysitter.

It's a Christian-specific way of putting it

[Doc Zero]

Milk would've been a good choice.

Awesome.

[Rough Carrigan]

I think it's cute that you think this somehow gives the Rangers leverage over Hamilton. You know, I think this is baseball's first alcoholic.

Fans generally care more about this stuff than owners do which is why I mentioned Washington. The Rangers stood by him and they'll stand by Hamilton. The only risk that will diminish interest in Hamilton is his history of injuries on the field not off it.

Funny, when Jared Allen got to the point of being a restricted free agent with the Kansas City chiefs, they pointedly refused to offer him a long term contract. The fact that he had two strikes against him under NFL rules because he had had two DUI's while in the NFL made him seem like a risk. And, please believe me, he's not the first guy who likes a drink to play in the NFL. But the fact that he might screw up and end his career also scared away some other teams in the trade market. Teams look at the whole context of a player when considering large financial commitments. Some people might like to think otherwise but they're deluding themselves.

[Tartan]

I don't feel like it's heartlessness. You can only do so much for somebody who so willfully wants to throw away the opportunities that have been presented to him. Their are millions of people suffering from things that they didn't bring upon themselves. Josh Hamilton inflicted himself with this "disease". I don't feel bad for him. At all.

This implies mutual exclusivity. There's absolutely none. And regardless, alcoholism and addiction are so fucking brutal, so awful, that dismissing it as "he doesn't deserve sympathy because he brought it upon himself" is reductionist.

Edited by Tartan, 04 February 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[Sampo Gida]

Hamilton would be better off doing his drinking in the clubhouse, then he can say what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse. LOL

This should be a pretty good wakeup call for him. I am sure his agent will let him know how much he cost himself.

[gaelgirl]

Well done Einstein, that is exactly what I want to do. I'm not a spineless coward, and I would rather throw down my towel and walk out of the bar than serve somebody who is communicating that they want to throw away their sobriety as obviously as Hamilton would in this situation (if he was ordering his drinks himself). I worked in a bar when I was trying to find a full-time job and I was struggling but I would have done that in a second because I respect myself too much to aid an addict relapsing.

Sorry but I have to participate in Josh Hamilton fucking up his life because he wants to and I should just serve him because he wants a drink?

Fuck that. FUCK that. And if you condone that you're a fucking asshole. I'm not putting an addict in that situation. If other people want to, fine, but just because other people would doesn't mean I would.

Newsflash, Einstein: You've worked in a bar, you've put an addict in that situation. Probably many, many times. Did you have regulars at this bar you worked at? I betcha some of those were addicts! Where was your towel-throwing tantrum then, Bongorino? Where was your self-respect?? By your own definition, you're a spineless coward!

If you work anywhere in the alcohol industry, you are contributing to someone's addiction. If you work in a bar, you are directly serving alcoholics. Every day. Maybe even every hour. If your moral code means you can't handle the possibility you're destroying people's lives with alcohol, don't work in the alcohol industry. Otherwise, accept the fact that you will serve addicts, some of whom have barely survived their addiction, some of whom are going to die from it. It's not the server's responsibility to protect the world from themselves, even if it's Josh Hamilton (OMtattooedG!) standing in front of you asking for four shots of tequila and a whiskey chaser.

The only person responsible for not serving Josh Hamilton a drink was Josh Hamilton. That's it. That's true of any addict. Making excuses for him by holding the bartender to some higher moral code is ridiculous. Why is Josh Hamilton's addiction any more important than the alcoholic three seats over? Why is it the bartender's job to determine the life choices of people who happened to walk into his or her building to find their drinks? Josh Hamilton isn't their buddy or brother. He made his choice to order a drink, the bartender made his choice to work in a place that serves them. Bonger, you did, too. And I'm guessing you served addicts with a lot sadder stories than, "I almost drank and drugged myself out of multi-million-dollar baseball contracts."

WTF, this thread is mongoloid central. Grow up, people.

[Average Reds]

I think it was probably willful to begin with, but once addicted, I think any relapses he'd had are probably less than willful.

I really don't think you know what willful means, because what you are saying here is that he is not capable of controlling his actions. And Josh Hamilton disagrees with you

Hamilton said he was out at dinner and ended up ordering three or four drinks. He said he called Rangers second baseman Ian Kinsler and asked him to come join him, but he said he didn't tell Kinsler that he had been drinking.

"I did not drink in front of him," Hamilton said. "We finished up at this restaurant that was closing and decided to go across the street to another place that stayed open. We talked baseball, family, life, all these things."

About 30 minutes later, Kinsler was ready to go home. Hamilton said his teammate dropped him off "where I needed to be," about a quarter of a mile away.

"He said, 'You're not going to go back out or anything, are you?'" Hamilton said of Kinsler. "I said, 'No,' and then, 'I'm good.' Then I did exactly what I told him I wouldn't do."

By his own words here, Hamilton made the conscious decision to drink, then to not drink in front of Kinsler, then to hide his drinking from him and finally to go out and drink again. These might be stupid choices, but they are most certainly willful.

"For everybody that I've hurt, for fans, kids, people that have addictions that look up to me, I apologize to you. When you're doing this, you don't mean to hurt anybody, but you're only thinking it hurts yourself, but I know it hurt a lot of people."

What Hamilton is describing here is someone making a selfish choice - he's only worried about the impact of his behavior on himself, which is how he rationalizes it. This may be incredibly self-destructive, but it is also willful. To his credit, Hamilton recognizes both how wrong he was and that he needs to take responsibility for his actions, which is the definition of willful behavior.

Saying that he's acting in a willful manner doesn't mean his decisions aren't self-destructive or even rational. But people make irrational decisions all the time. To say that these decisions aren't willful is simply incorrect.

Edited by Average Reds, 04 February 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Sleepy108]

Saying that he's acting in a willful manner doesn't mean his decisions aren't self-destructive or even rational. But people make irrational decisions all the time. To say that these decisions aren't willful is simply incorrect.

This is right on. AA give you a "tool box" for every situation that can or may arise. Not drinking is only one part of it. I have been sober for 24 years and I can tell you that the it's an everyday job. I hope he can put it back together and continue his life and career as a major leaguer.

[24JoshuaPoint]

I wouldn't serve him given what I know. I've refused people before if i like them. If i don't, then go ahead. But that's just my feeling today. In Friday night with a full crowd, thoughts change sometime.

(null)

[Doc Zero]

I wouldn't serve him given what I know. I've refused people before if i like them. If i don't, then go ahead. But that's just my feeling today. In Friday night with a full crowd, thoughts change sometime.

So your moral compass tells you not to serve known alcoholics but only if they're agreeable people?

Kind of a wacky compass, no?

[santadevil]

New support assistant to hired by Rangers to help Hamilton, per ESPN.

Edited by santadevil, 08 February 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[RingoOSU]

The Texas Rangers have hired Shayne Kelley as a major league staff assistant and part of his duties will be to support Josh Hamilton, general manager Jon Daniels said Tuesday night.
Kelley, a graduate of the University of Alabama, will also help hitting coach Scott Coolbaugh and the Rangers coaching staff as part of his duties.

That's written to sound like Scott Coolbaugh needs an accountability partner too, but I doubt that's the case.

[Rasputin]

I would like to point out two things.

On at least two occasions, Josh Hamilton has fallen off the wagon and not gone completely bonkers. I think he'd be a stronger person if he realized that he can do that and develop the tools to do it on his own.

There is, at the bottom of my screen, an add for Christian Treatment promising Christian Based Addiction treatment that I assume is prompted by the Josh Hamilton talk. I find that disturbing in multiple ways.

[Average Reds]

I would like to point out two things.

On at least two occasions, Josh Hamilton has fallen off the wagon and not gone completely bonkers. I think he'd be a stronger person if he realized that he can do that and develop the tools to do it on his own.

There is, at the bottom of my screen, an add for Christian Treatment promising Christian Based Addiction treatment that I assume is prompted by the Josh Hamilton talk. I find that disturbing in multiple ways.

If the report on Deadspin this morning has any truth to it, Hamilton may have gotten closer to going completely bonkers than we initially understood.

Someone is shopping a videotape allegedly showing Texas Rangers outfielder Josh Hamilton, on the night of his recent relapse, having sex in the bathroom of Sherlock's, a Dallas bar. A local television station was offered the tape for $41,000, an employee at the station tells us. The station declined, and we're told no one there actually watched the tape.

There are also allegations in that report that employees of Sherlock's actively facilitated Hamilton's activities that evening, which certainly changes the context. If true - a big if - the bar that served him deserves all the criticism they have received.

[Judge Mental13]

If banging some random barskank in the bathroom of my local watering hole is "going bonkers" then consider me Charles Manson.

Edited by Judge Mental13, 09 February 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Average Reds]

If banging some random barskank in the bathroom of my local watering hole is "going bonkers" then consider me Charles Manson.

Point taken.

[Rough Carrigan]

I'm a big fan of David Cross. A friend sent me a link to a story about his admitting that he had snorted coke at the White House press correspondents' dinner. At the end of the story was this quote:

Another Cross confession: he remains "curious" about new recreational drugs, and considers crack to be wack.
"I smoked it once, and it was a huge wake-up call ... When it came time to get some more, I knew very clearly that if I stayed there—and I wanted to—my life would change right then and there for the worse. I never touched crack again."

I'll readily admit that I've never done hard drugs. Lots of teenage alcohol and some weed but never any hard stuff so I had only a guess at what getting into that stuff was like. But Cross's statement is exactly what I was thinking and just the reason why some folks are hesitant to accept some sort of no judgements allowed, he's an addict position on Hamilton. At some point, as he was getting started, he knew that, as Cross says, "my life would change right then and there for the worse." And he did it anyway. Pity him, yes. Wish him the best, yes. But if you don't call him a fucking idiot for making such a dumb, conscious choice, it's a bit of a cop out.

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Rough, you have to blame the bartender who first gave Hamilton the crack. It's only fair to all those involved.

[rembrat]

"The Rangers have done a lot for me, but I've got a question for y'all: Have I done a lot for the Rangers? I think I've given them everything I've had," Hamilton said. "I don't think anybody can say I haven't. When it comes down to it, people don't understand, fans don't understand, this is a business, this is an entertainment business.

"I love Texas. I love my fans. I love fans of the Rangers. I love the organization. I love my teammates. I love everything about it. But I'm not going to sit here and say that I owe the Rangers. I don't feel like I owe the Rangers."

http://espn.go.com/d...s-texas-rangers

No hometown discount. The Rangers are going to have to pay him big money.

[Minneapolis Millers]

How can you even determine what a "hometown discount" for Hamilton would be? It's fair to expect that his contract potential is less than what his stats might otherwise portend, given his alcoholism and addiction history. So would the market itself be likely to discount his deal by 10%? 20%?
If the Rangers were offering him just a 3 or 4 year deal, I could see him balking. But is he likely to get a 7-8 year deal? Perhaps from a desperate, bad team. But what a huge risk. My wild guess: He resigns with Texas for 5 years/$100M with substantial incentives and a mutual option year or two built in.

[Dahabenzapple2]

I lost a long post - let me get more quickly to the point. I am a recovering drug addict clean over 7 years.

Got clean at 44 years old - used all kinds of shit and ended up smoking crack, drinking vodka and taking pills and pissing in the corner.

*I* am responsible for my recovery, NOBODY else.

I don't go to bars, I go to meetings, I know hundreds of recovering addicts, clean days to more than 30 years.

I was always surprised he apparently stayed clean due to jesus and a babysitter. Most likely the addict who admits a to a relapse like he is - will be leaving good chunks out of what really has happened. I would be surprised if he hasn't doen a bit of coke, crack or dope as well. We as addicts are amazing manipulatotrs and liars.

very few drug addicts stay clean as it takes great effort and commitment to stay clean and the above ain't it.

I wouldn't guarentee him for more than this year - and that would be a stretch as he is gonna be obsessing about using ig he isn't already using on a regular basis.

It took me over a year or a year and half to stop thinking about smoking crack and yet I didn't do it - nore did I take a drink or swallow a pill - I did what I needed to do to stay clean and now it has been YEARS since I even considered using.

[thestardawg]

I lost a long post - let me get more quickly to the point. I am a recovering drug addict clean over 7 years.

Got clean at 44 years old - used all kinds of shit and ended up smoking crack, drinking vodka and taking pills and pissing in the corner.

*I* am responsible for my recovery, NOBODY else.

I don't go to bars, I go to meetings, I know hundreds of recovering addicts, clean days to more than 30 years.

I was always surprised he apparently stayed clean due to jesus and a babysitter. Most likely the addict who admits a to a relapse like he is - will be leaving good chunks out of what really has happened. I would be surprised if he hasn't doen a bit of coke, crack or dope as well. We as addicts are amazing manipulatotrs and liars.

very few drug addicts stay clean as it takes great effort and commitment to stay clean and the above ain't it.

I wouldn't guarentee him for more than this year - and that would be a stretch as he is gonna be obsessing about using ig he isn't already using on a regular basis.

It took me over a year or a year and half to stop thinking about smoking crack and yet I didn't do it - nore did I take a drink or swallow a pill - I did what I needed to do to stay clean and now it has been YEARS since I even considered using.

If he did crack or any kind of hard drug, he'd have been suspended by the MLB. He's drug tested three times a week by MLB.