186 replies to this topic

[Lose Remerswaal]

He lost his accountability partner, said he did not think he still needed one after his father in law backed out.

http://espn.go.com/d...ks-support-role

So the team appointed guy left the team, and they asked his father in law (who has a 17 year old daughter) to basically spend all his time with Josh Hamilton? In what world is this the best alternative?

Oh poor Josh. The dude is a millionaire who has had more chances in life than anybody I know. I hope he ate the worm too.

Exactly. Either the team decides Hamilton is worth investing resources in to protect him from himself, or Hamilton decides (when he's sober) that he's worth investing his own resources in to protect him from himself.

You pay a guy millions of dollars/year, you should expect that he'll stay in shape, stay out of jail, and stay sober.

[Orel Miraculous]

It is not illegal for him to order a drink.

Well, I'm not sure what the negligence laws are in Texas, but the bartender might actually be liable for serving him if he knew that he was a recovering addict.

But that wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you're the staff at that bar in Dallas and Josh Hamilton walks in, how do you serve him in good conscience knowing that he has a serious problem?

[steveluck7]

Well, I'm not sure what the negligence laws are in Texas, but the bartender might actually be liable for serving him if he knew that he was a recovering addict.

Really? Are you implying that you know the negligence laws in other parts of the country and a bartender could be held liable for serving someone who he or she knows to be a recovering alchoholic?
I know there are differening standards in dram shop laws by state but i have never heard it extend beyond serving someone who is visibly intoxicated and cuases harm to someone.

[RingoOSU]

Uhhh... Maybe I don't know the full story, but I'm pretty sure I do.

Granted the incident where the guy fell from the stands must have been an incredibly difficult thing to deal with, this isn't the first time that Josh Hamilton has relapsed. What was the cause of his relapse in 2009?

This guy has been cut enough slack throughout his career. It sucks that he relapsed, I'm not wishing it on him. But the fact that people send thoughts and prayers out to someone who is solely responsible for their destructive lifestyle doesn't garner much sympathy from me.

For all we know 2009 was just another time he got caught, and they're not relapses, but just public knowledge of something he's been doing regularly.

[Orel Miraculous]

Really? Are you implying that you know the negligence laws in other parts of the country and a bartender could be held liable for serving someone who he or she knows to be a recovering alchoholic?
I know there are differening standards in dram shop laws by state but i have never heard it extend beyond serving someone who is visibly intoxicated and cuases harm to someone.

I have no idea. I wasn't trying to make a legal point, the negligence stuff was a sidetrack. I was just trying to say on a personal level, how do those bartenders serve him in good conscience?

[rembrat]

Because it is their job.

[Bunt4aTriple]

Yeah, you can't refuse to serve a visibly pregnant woman. That's no worse than serving a booze bag.

[steveluck7]

I have no idea. I wasn't trying to make a legal point, the negligence stuff was a sidetrack. I was just trying to say on a personal level, how do those bartenders serve him in good conscience?

OK. FWIW, I wasn't trying to be snarky, sorry if it came off that way I was actually wondering if you knew of the laws extending to this type of situation elsewhere.
Anyhow, I think they can serve him because he's a grown man asking for a beer. While he is a celebrity, especially in the area, I know if i were in Hamilton's shoes and ordered a beer and some bartender lectured me on MY issues, there would probably be bigger problems

[Orel Miraculous]

Because it is their job.

Really? So if you work at a bar and a guy walks in who's past drug and alcohol abuse literally almost killed him (and you know this) you would have no qualms about serving him because you get paid $2.95 an hour plus tips to do so?

[steveluck7]

Really? So if you work at a bar and a guy walks in who's past drug and alcohol abuse literally almost killed him (and you know this) you would have no qualms about serving him because you get paid $2.95 an hour plus tips to do so?

Absolutely. Again, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, ordered a beer, and a bartender brought up my past issues in a hesitation to serve me, my next words would be "shut the f*** up and get me a beer." How would you react if you were Hamilton?

edit: and, if he was in a bar even contemplating drinking, odds are he was already having a pretty sh***y day so he was probably not in the mood to be judged by someone making $2.95 an hour

Edited by steveluck7, 03 February 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Scriblerus]

What if the bartender is an Angel's fan?

[Toe Nash]

If Hamilton can't control his problem, then that's sad, but he's fortunate that he has the resources to get help should he want it. There are plenty who are addicted to substances but aren't really fucking talented at baseball (or anything) and their lives get ruined. I don't believe in God, but if I did, I'd save my prayers for them.

[Myt1]

Yeah, you can't refuse to serve a visibly pregnant woman. That's no worse than serving a booze bag.

Really? Is there law on this?

Absolutely. Again, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, ordered a beer, and a bartender brought up my past issues in a hesitation to serve me, my next words would be "shut the f*** up and get me a beer." How would you react if you were Hamilton?

edit: and, if he was in a bar even contemplating drinking, odds are he was already having a pretty sh***y day so he was probably not in the mood to be judged by someone making $2.95 an hour

And?

[WayBackVazquez]

Really? Are you implying that you know the negligence laws in other parts of the country and a bartender could be held liable for serving someone who he or she knows to be a recovering alchoholic?
I know there are differening standards in dram shop laws by state but i have never heard it extend beyond serving someone who is visibly intoxicated and cuases harm to someone.

I'm not only implying, but telling you that I know that knowingly serving alcohol to an alcoholic can subject you not only to civil, but criminal liability in some states.

[CaptainLaddie]

Well, I'm not sure what the negligence laws are in Texas, but the bartender might actually be liable for serving him if he knew that he was a recovering addict.

But that wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you're the staff at that bar in Dallas and Josh Hamilton walks in, how do you serve him in good conscience knowing that he has a serious problem?

1) HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAH

2) $

[CaptainLaddie]

I'm not only implying, but telling you that I know that knowingly serving alcohol to an alcoholic can subject you not only to civil, but criminal liability in some states.

Is this for real? That's stupid. That's a stupid fucking law. People make their own choices, addiction or not.

[steveluck7]

I'm not only implying, but telling you that I know that knowingly serving alcohol to an alcoholic can subject you not only to civil, but criminal liability in some states.

really? wow. That's interesting. Without getting into a whole legal dialogue, how is one determiend to be an alcoholic? I assume being in a treatment program? Does the person being a celebrity and people "knowing his story" satisfy the standard?

Edited by steveluck7, 03 February 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[doc]

Really? So if you work at a bar and a guy walks in who's past drug and alcohol abuse literally almost killed him (and you know this) you would have no qualms about serving him because you get paid $2.95 an hour plus tips to do so?

The guy's a millionaire and maybe he tips well. He is just as free to make bad choices as anyone else, I see people make really bad choices all the time. I let them know what the risks are and what the healthy choice would be but in the end they make up their own mind. I have several lung cancer patients who still smoke. Rules of the Fat Man #4: the patient is the one with the disease.

[WayBackVazquez]

really? wow. That's interesting. Without getting into a whole legal dialogue, how is one determiend to be an alcoholic? I assume being in a treatment program? Is the person being a celebrity and people "knowing his story" satisfy the standard?

For criminal liability, from what I've seen, you need written notice, eg, a letter from you or your wife saying, "don't serve me, I'm an alcoholic." In a civil trial, knowledge would be a jury question, decided by evidence, including circumstantial, like any other.

[doc]

really? wow. That's interesting. Without getting into a whole legal dialogue, how is one determiend to be an alcoholic? I assume being in a treatment program? Does the person being a celebrity and people "knowing his story" satisfy the standard?

It's tatoo'd on the back of their neck.

[Orel Miraculous]

The guy's a millionaire and maybe he tips well. He is just as free to make bad choices as anyone else, I see people make really bad choices all the time. I let them know what the risks are and what the healthy choice would be but in the end they make up their own mind. I have several lung cancer patients who still smoke. Rules of the Fat Man #4: the patient is the one with the disease.

Of course he makes his own bad choices. I'm not saying the bartender needs to take responsibility for Josh Hamilton's life. I'm not saying he should've immediately picked up the phone and called Nolan Ryan or AA. I'm not even saying he should have done anything to prevent Josh Hamilton from walking out and going to the bar next door. It's Hamilton's life and he's responsible for destroying it. But the decent thing for the bartender to do in that situation is say "Sorry, I can't stop you from ruining your life, but I'm not going to help you do it." I personally don't believe you should check your moral fiber at the door when you go into work.

[steveluck7]

For criminal liability, from what I've seen, you need written notice, eg, a letter from you or your wife saying, "don't serve me, I'm an alcoholic." In a civil trial, knowledge would be a jury question, decided by evidence, including circumstantial, like any other.

Sorry, I knwo I said i didn't want to get into a whole legal dialogue but it is interesting. For criminal liability, does the alcoholic need to do physical harm to himself or someone else or is the act of serving him enough to constitute a charge? Battery?

[WayBackVazquez]

I'm a boozy lawyer, not a booze lawyer. Look it up. Here's one:

http://www.flsenate....tes/2011/562.50

[santadevil]

I just can't feel any sympathy for the guy.

Stable upbringing with a good family. He made his own bad choices and this is just another one.
Someone will pay him lots of money next off-season, even if it's not the Rangers and then we'll see how this story turns out.

Hopefully he stays clean, put up huge numbers and all is well.
If not, too damn bad. No one to blame but himself.

[singaporesoxfan]

Also, I think people may be overestimating the ability of bartenders to recognize Josh Hamilton, even in the DFW area.

[Spacemans Bong]

I've been a bartender and you can absolutely refuse to serve anybody you damn well desire. You may not always be backed up by your manager, but if your manager is telling you it's in your and the bar's best interest to serve an alcoholic DFW icon or a pregnant woman, then it's time to quit. It's service, not servitude.

I am amused that people crow on about responsibility for someone who has a disease (and anybody who thinks differently is a guy on the Internetz vs. the medical community) yet absolve the bartender of blame. How much of a spineless pussy can you be to put a $5 tip over someone's well being?

I'm also horrified at the lack of compassion for somebody who is struggling through an extraordinary physical and mental affliction. But he's a ballplayer making millions and I'm jealous so fuck him. Weaksauce.

[WayBackVazquez]

Also, I think people may be overestimating the ability of bartenders to recognize Josh Hamilton, even in the DFW area.

Really?

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I am amused that people crow on about responsibility for someone who has a disease (and anybody who thinks differently is a guy on the Internetz vs. the medical community) yet absolve the bartender of blame. How much of a spineless pussy can you be to put a $5 tip over someone's well being?

You know it's possible, just possible, that the bartender had no idea who the hell Josh Hamilton is. Maybe the bartender isn't much of a sports fan. Maybe the bartender might recognize him but doesn't think that it is actually Josh Hamilton. Maybe the bartender was busy that night and didn't have time to play nursemaid to an adult who can make his own choices.

And let's be honest, say this bartender doesn't server Josh Hamilton. Do you think that Hamilton is going to go home, thank his lucky stars and read the Bible for the next eight hours? No. He's going to go to the next bar. And if they won't serve him, the next. And the next. And the next. There are a lot of bars in the DFW area, one of them will serve him. And if they don't for some insane reason, he'll go to a liquor store and buy a bottle of booze and pour it down his throat.

You people blaming the bar tender are living in a god damn fantasy world.

[Spacemans Bong]

You know it's possible, just possible, that the bartender had no idea who the hell Josh Hamilton is. Maybe the bartender isn't much of a sports fan. Maybe the bartender might recognize him but doesn't think that it is actually Josh Hamilton. Maybe the bartender was busy that night and didn't have time to play nursemaid to an adult who can make his own choices.

And let's be honest, say this bartender doesn't server Josh Hamilton. Do you think that Hamilton is going to go home, thank his lucky stars and read the Bible for the next eight hours? No. He's going to go to the next bar. And if they won't serve him, the next. And the next. And the next. There are a lot of bars in the DFW area, one of them will serve him. And if they don't for some insane reason, he'll go to a liquor store and buy a bottle of booze and pour it down his throat.

You people blaming the bar tender are living in a god damn fantasy world.

Maybe they didn't know who he was. OK, fine.

And if he goes to the next bar, so the fuck what? You have not aided in Josh Hamilton relapsing.

Maybe I'm a bleeding heart cunt for caring about people I don't know personally, but there is no fucking way in hell I would feel good about myself after aiding in a man's relapse because he offered me a $5 tip. I treasure not trying to make the world a worse place. There are people who are hell-bent to be self-destructive no matter what, but damned if I am going to aid them in it just because my life is so shitty that I am filled by nothing but apathy.

[kenneycb]

What if it was a $20 tip?

[Scriblerus]

Putting the onus on any employee to discerne if is someone is an addict is ridiculous. If the guy comes in slobbering drunk, sure, don't serve him. How is it the responsibility of ANY employee to judge if someone is an addict? Because he "looks" like an addict? Because he looks like someone who is famous and known to be an addict? Should he have carded Hamilton, said "Oh, you're an addict. Take your business elsewhere."? At what point did we no longer become responsible for our own behavior?

When does it end? Should a McDonald's employee sell burgers to the morbidly obese?

[Lose Remerswaal]

I've been a bartender and you can absolutely refuse to serve anybody you damn well desire. You may not always be backed up by your manager, but if your manager is telling you it's in your and the bar's best interest to serve an alcoholic DFW icon or a pregnant woman, then it's time to quit. It's service, not servitude.

I am amused that people crow on about responsibility for someone who has a disease (and anybody who thinks differently is a guy on the Internetz vs. the medical community) yet absolve the bartender of blame. How much of a spineless pussy can you be to put a $5 tip over someone's well being?

I'm also horrified at the lack of compassion for somebody who is struggling through an extraordinary physical and mental affliction. But he's a ballplayer making millions and I'm jealous so fuck him. Weaksauce.

The issue here is that Josh Hamilton is fully able to pay someone to make sure he doesn't relapse, and by choosing not to do so, has made the decision that this is his preference.

And the fact is, he looks like a thousand other muscled douchebags, so it is possible the bartender didn't recognize him.

[jmm57]

I find it hard to believe that Josh Hamilton wouldn't be recognized at a bar in DFW.

I worked at a golf course in Orlando in 2007 and we had Mike Cuellar in, I am a pretty big baseball fan but I had never even heard of him. Before he tee'd off on #1 everyone at the club knew he was the 1969 AL Cy Young award winner. I find it hard to believe you can have an active player, in the city he plays in, 2 years off of an MVP season and back-to-back World Series appearances and not know that he is in the bar.

Deciding to serve him, or not to serve him is a different story, but I would bet everyone knew who he was.

[Orel Miraculous]

At what point did we no longer become responsible for our own behavior?

Apparently when a tip absolves a bartender of his responsibility to be moral being.

Edited by Orel Miraculous, 03 February 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Foulkey Reese]

I find it hard to believe that Josh Hamilton wouldn't be recognized at a bar in DFW.

I worked at a golf course in Orlando in 2007 and we had Mike Cuellar in, I am a pretty big baseball fan but I had never even heard of him. Before he tee'd off on #1 everyone at the club knew he was the 1969 AL Cy Young award winner. I find it hard to believe you can have an active player, in the city he plays in, 2 years off of an MVP season and back-to-back World Series appearances and not know that he is in the bar.

Deciding to serve him, or not to serve him is a different story, but I would bet everyone knew who he was.

This is crazy.

I bet half of the people in my office would have no idea who David Ortiz was if he was standing in front of them in full uni. Hell I probably wouldn't recognize Hamilton if he had a hat and sunglasses on in a crowded bar.

[jmm57]

This is crazy.

I bet half of the people in my office would have no idea who David Ortiz was if he was standing in front of them in full uni. Hell I probably wouldn't recognize Hamilton if he had a hat and sunglasses on in a crowded bar.

Have you been in bars when athletes are in? I have lived most of my life in Maine, so there aren't many big names around.

But in my experience, any pro athlete in the bar generates quite a buzz, even guys much lower profile than Josh Hamilton.

[moondog80]

Have you been in bars when athletes are in? I have lived most of my life in Maine, so there aren't many big names around.

But in my experience, any pro athlete in the bar generates quite a buzz, even guys much lower profile than Josh Hamilton.

I don't think he would go unnoticed, but that doesn't mean that every single person would recognize him. I'm terrible at recognizing people out of context, so it seems reasonable to me that a bartender, even a Rangers fan, might not be able to say with certainty "ths is Josh Hamilton".

[Rough Carrigan]

I don't think he would go unnoticed, but that doesn't mean that every single person would recognize him. I'm terrible at recognizing people out of context, so it seems reasonable to me that a bartender, even a Rangers fan, might not be able to say with certainty "ths is Josh Hamilton".

Also, he walks in and starts talking to someone and that guy goes up to the bar and gets 3 beers for him, Hamilton and another guy all situated way in the back of the bar, how likely is the bartender to know who's getting each beer?

[E5 Yaz]

Man, get the fuck outta here.

An "accountability partner"? This guy is a grown man... My comments may seem harsh but I truly have a hard time believing alcoholism and addiction is truly a "disease". He's an adult, it's outlandish to think he needs someone watching his every move to make sure he doesn't relapse.

This guy is a joke.

You are so clueless you deserve all the shit you get from this ... and more

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Maybe they didn't know who he was. OK, fine.

And if he goes to the next bar, so the fuck what? You have not aided in Josh Hamilton relapsing.

Maybe I'm a bleeding heart cunt for caring about people I don't know personally, but there is no fucking way in hell I would feel good about myself after aiding in a man's relapse because he offered me a $5 tip. I treasure not trying to make the world a worse place. There are people who are hell-bent to be self-destructive no matter what, but damned if I am going to aid them in it just because my life is so shitty that I am filled by nothing but apathy.

Get off your high horse, you sound like an 18-year-old in his first ethics class.

It has nothing to do with being a bleeding heart or apathetic, the fact is this if Josh Hamilton wants a drink Josh Hamilton is going to get a drink. So you don't serve JH, guess what JH makes a stink goes to your manager and says, "I want a drink but that douche of a bartender won't give me one." Your boss comes over says, "Give him a drink or you're fired." He wants to save his job because maybe he has kids and a wife and a mortgage and bills (something that you know, only apathetic right-wingers have), needs this job and he doesn't want to deal with his boss who will scream bloody murder because you shut off one of the most popular athletes in Texas thus robbing him of a nice night's pay. You probably wouldn't give him a drink and that's fine, whatever, but guess what you're shitcanned and JH got his beer.

A bartender has two jobs:
1. Make sure that he provides adults with libations
2. Make sure that he doesn't give too much so that said person doesn't fuck himself up and sues either him or his place of employment

It's not to play Dr. Phil to every person who comes into his bar and wants a beer or two. Bars would be pretty lonely places if they only served beers to folks without problems.

But let's say everyone lives in Dr. Bonguer's Candyland where everything is sweet and nice and folks watch out for one another, guess what Josh Hamilton is going to get himself a drink. He just is. So whether you're the schmoe who gives it to him or not, is inconsequential. What it really boils down to is that you don't want to be the bad guy and you guise it in the warm wooliness of "treasure[ing] not trying to make the world a worse place." When really all you want to do is push the guy along and then cluck your tongue at the person who gives him what he wants.

Well done.

[Hyde Park Factor]

Why wouldn't he just grab a six pack and drink it at home? What stands out to me is that both known relapses have happened in public places, basically guaranteeing that he would get caught.

[Corsi]

He's holding a press conference at 2PM, which can be viewed here: http://mlb.mlb.com/v...74394741246-996

Edited by Corsi, 03 February 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[FL4WL3SS]

Why wouldn't he just grab a six pack and drink it at home? What stands out to me is that both known relapses have happened in public places, basically guaranteeing that he would get caught.

He's narcassistic, just like all ballplayers. He likes the attention.

[Rasputin]

It is not illegal for him to order a drink.

It's also not illegal for the bartender to refuse to serve him.

[Average Reds]

He's narcassistic, just like all ballplayers. He likes the attention.

Probably the most concise and accurate thing said in the entire thread.

Edit: And now I'm looking at him in his press conference, and I see Hamilton with a baseball cap on backwards with sunglasses on top. While indoors. His attire just screams "I am a self-important idiot."

Edited by Average Reds, 03 February 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Corsi]

Press conference about to start.

[kenneycb]

It's also not illegal for the bartender to refuse to serve him.

Nor is it illegal for a bartender to be ignorant of the plight of Josh Hamilton.

[mauidano]

What does this say about the future of his life once he retires and is away from anyone who can be there as his "accountability partner"? Amazes me that his wife even lets him out of the house.

[E5 Yaz]

He's narcassistic, just like all ballplayers. He likes the attention.

Unable to stop himself, he drank in a public place hoping someone would help

[Corsi]

Pretty fucking honest press conference right now. Admits his behavior is/was "sneaky."