81 replies to this topic

[TheRooster]

You can't just sell him on these points compared to what other people have to other. LA has warm weather, better nightlife, and he can choose between playing with Chris Paul or Kobe Bryant. Plus there are the Nets w/ D-Will (maybe), the Bulls with Rose, and the Mavericks with Dirk and the GOAT owner. It's hard to sell him on having old dudes that can play D when we're up against that, and basically need him to come for the team to not fade away to lotto land.

So playing with Kobe and for Donal Sterling are now good things? Didn't LBJ just pass on playing with Rose? Would you really want to be the big money FA that let's Ivan Drago down? Isn't Dirk as old as PP?

This negativity stinks and it sucks....

[zenter]

You can't just sell him on these points compared to what other people have to other. LA has warm weather, better nightlife, and he can choose between playing with Chris Paul or Kobe Bryant. Plus there are the Nets w/ D-Will (maybe), the Bulls with Rose, and the Mavericks with Dirk and the GOAT owner. It's hard to sell him on having old dudes that can play D when we're up against that, and basically need him to come for the team to not fade away to lotto land.

Putting aside the actual player/game arguments (which are at least relevant consideration for one's professional life), why is it that in no other sport except basketball that weather and nightlife matter so much? This seems like a cop-out given that the Pats and Sox never seem to have so much trouble recruiting top talent. Is this a true concern (e.g., a function of salary cap considerations) or something we've gotten lazy about assuming?

Edited by zenter, 01 February 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[irishtap03]

Putting aside the actual player/game arguments (which are at least relevant consideration for one's professional life), why is it that in no other sport except basketball that weather and nightlife matter so much? This seems like a cop-out given that the Pats and Sox never seem to have so much trouble recruiting top talent. Is this a true concern (e.g., a function of salary cap considerations) or something we've gotten lazy about assuming?

First you need to take LA out of any arguement. LA will always be the perfect place to play for an NBA player, especially a superstar. Weather, location, media market, and an owner willing to spend to win. If everyone would take off their Celtic's glasses for one second why wouldn't you want to play there? NY would be just slightly behind LA if their owner didn't do such a bang up job of messing things up. Yes players want to go to Miami now but I don't remember people beating down the door when Ron Seikaly was holding down the center position. If weather and party lifestyle were such a big deal ATL would be at the top of players list too.

One reason these issues do seem to come into play in basketball more than other sports is the salary cap. If Minnesota offered Howard a 10 year 200 million deal in a non salary cap system and the next best deal was from Dallas for 9 years and 150 million guess where Howard is going....But when teams can only match each other on deals these other factors come into play. If the C's were the only team with money this offseason Howard would strongly consider the C's. But when the C's match up against other teams and where they play and what they offer off the court it hurts the C's. Now exactly where the C's fall on this ladder i'm not sure. My guess is for a superstar to flat out sign with the C's he would need to see, max money (obviously) and a team that is close but needs a superstar to put them over the top. On top of that this would all have to happen when teams like LA (both), Dallas, NY, and Chicago don't have money.

[lars10]

Putting aside the actual player/game arguments (which are at least relevant consideration for one's professional life), why is it that in no other sport except basketball that weather and nightlife matter so much? This seems like a cop-out given that the Pats and Sox never seem to have so much trouble recruiting top talent. Is this a true concern (e.g., a function of salary cap considerations) or something we've gotten lazy about assuming?

In addition to salary cap as irishtap said... I think the main reason is the number of players available due to team size..it's the only team sport that carries so small a roster. In football the player pool is much larger and the number of talented players is greater. Baseball similarly..but you also have the advantage of paying more. In basketball there just aren't as many players because there's about 5 elite players per team at most.

[irishtap03]

In addition look at what about 75% of the league tried to do the year LBJ, Amare, Wade etc became free agents. Every team was trying to shed payroll so that they could attempt to get max money. There are such limited number of superstars like lars10 said. I'm not talking Joe Johnson type of stars I mean the type that can not only carry a team but sell out an arena. When those guys become available the big name teams always try to get their ducks in a line to grab the player.

[Statman]

Howard reportedly won't sign a long term deal with the Lakers if he is traded there.

http://www.hoopsworl...his-way-to-nets

[lars10]

So..so far we have:

1. willing to play for the Celtics
2. willing to play for the Bulls
3. won't sign extension if traded to the Lakers

Is this guy capable of keeping his mouth shut about his next move for longer than a week?

[Yore]

From the linked article in Statman's post:

Howard’s interest in Los Angeles has always been overstated, mainly because he doesn’t want to follow in Shaquille O’Neal’s footsteps and he doesn’t want to go through another rebuilding process anytime soon. With Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol in their thirties, Howard would be reaching his prime just as his All-Star teammates were declining.

Why would Howard consider the Celtics if the above is true? Does he think the Celtics situation is somehow better?

[nighthob]

Probably because if Boston moves Rondo or Pierce they'd have room to bring in another all-star along with him.

[smastroyin]

Maybe Shaq convinced him that Kobe's a twat.

[Three10toLeft]

Probably because if Boston moves Rondo or Pierce they'd have room to bring in another all-star along with him.

I would think Rondo IS another all star to pair with him. Maybe not in the top 3 PG's in the league, but top 5. Couldn't they afford another top level talent with KG and Ray coming off the books as well? I don't see how Dwight's contract could be worth more annually than what KG is making. If not, then I guess you have to amnesty Pierce. It's about building for the future, it would suck to see Paul go, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[nighthob]

Rondo can't shoot. And really can't share the end of the game with Howard, as every possession would result in a foul to one or the other and Boston's offensive efficiency evaporate like dry ice in the Sahara.

[Three10toLeft]

Rondo can't shoot. And really can't share the end of the game with Howard, as every possession would result in a foul to one or the other and Boston's offensive efficiency evaporate like dry ice in the Sahara.

True... But I would think Rondo + Howard would be enough to lure a good 3rd option with a solid shot. Someone like Eric Gordon.

[nighthob]

Who gives a shit? You still can't have both of them on the floor at the same time in the fourth quarter. And Gordon won't be going anywhere for at least another year (and probably not at all).

[radsoxfan]

Rondo can't shoot. And really can't share the end of the game with Howard, as every possession would result in a foul to one or the other and Boston's offensive efficiency evaporate like dry ice in the Sahara.

Teams with the best offensive efficiencies in the league are around 105 points per 100 possessions.

In other words, if you are fouled and shoot better than 53% from the FT line, you are doing better than the best offense in the league (and this assumes no chance of an offensive rebound, so it's actually lower than that). Teams can foul Howard/Rondo all they want. They would be doing the Celtics a favor. This is a complete non-issue.

In the last 10 seconds of the game when teams need to intentionally foul to increase the number of possessions left, you can sub them out or try to get the ball to a better shooter. But the general strategy of intentionally fouling simply won't work.

http://insider.espn....d-foul-strategy

Edited by radsoxfan, 04 February 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[CyYoungSchilling]

Probably because if Boston moves Rondo or Pierce they'd have room to bring in another all-star along with him.

Ding, ding, ding! People thinking Ainge would be asking him to come here to play with a bunch of old dudes don't seem to realize the limitless flexbility Ainge has this off-season. They essentially have no guaranteed money on the books for next year as Rondo could easily be dealt to a team under the cap and Pierce could easily be amnestied (as much as it would suck to do it), if that's what Dwight wants.

The Celtics can allow Dwight and Deron play together like they want to and offer a far better supporting cast than the Nets can. Just one example: you could probably deal Rondo to the Sacramento Kings for Demarcus Cousins who is very cheap ($3.8M) next season and keep Pierce, if Deron and Dwight take a less than $2M per year discount from the max (Miami Heat style). Or if they aren't willing to do that, you amnesty Pierce and have roughly $13M available to spend on guys like KG/Ray/Jeff Green or maybe Gerald Wallace.

It's still a long shot because who knows whether Dwight even reaches FA (could see a Chris Paul esque opt in to secure a trade) and he may prefer living in a place like Brooklyn or LA over Boston even if we can offer him a significantly better roster but if Dwight reaches FA, Ainge can make a hell of a sales pitch and it's not "come here and play with a bunch of old dudes". It's called having a shitload of cap space and a significant trade asset in Rondo.

[Statman]

So apparently Howard decided that the Lakers weren't the best long term situation after Kobe told him he would have to play third fiddle after himself and Gasol. You can't make this shit up.

Bryant told Howard that he wanted him to come to Los Angeles and help him win two more championships, but not as an understudy. He wanted Howard to be the team's third option behind himself and Pau Gasol, according to a source. Bryant tried to sell Howard on being his "Tyson Chandler" and made it clear that Los Angeles would be his, but only once Bryant decided he was done playing.

Howard was turned off by the idea.

Howard stated that there was "no way" he would give up everything he has in Orlando to go to the Lakers and be the third option, a source close to the situation said. Howard certainly wouldn’t mind being a third piece on a star-studded team, similar to the situations in Miami and Boston. However, he was turned off by Bryant's presentation as it suggested something totally different.

http://basketball.re...f_Dwight_Howard

[Sprowl]

So apparently Howard decided that the Lakers weren't the best long term situation after Kobe told him he would have to play third fiddle after himself and Gasol. You can't make this shit up.

http://basketball.re...f_Dwight_Howard

It doesn't sound like Kobe Bryant will have a second career as a talent recruiter.

[Three10toLeft]

Lol

Being a third option behind Pau is just insulting. The ego that Kobe displays is truly galling.

[jmm57]

Dwight is clearly the better overall player, but is it really crazy that he would be the third option on offense?

I haven't watched much NBA the last couple years and it seems that Pau has fallen off some; but he is still a much better passer, not as turnover prone and is more versatile on offense than Dwight?

A shitty way to sell it to Dwight for sure, but I don't think its a crazy statement.

Edited by jmm57, 05 February 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[nighthob]

It's pretty crazy all right.

[JakeRae]

Dwight is clearly the better overall player, but is it really crazy that he would be the third option on offense?

I haven't watched much NBA the last couple years and it seems that Pau has fallen off some; but he is still a much better passer, not as turnover prone and is more versatile on offense than Dwight?

A shitty way to sell it to Dwight for sure, but I don't think its a crazy statement.

It's true that Howard would be the third option on offense for the Lakers. Howard really isn't a great offensive player when it comes to functioning within a set offense (he is great at offensive rebounding and scoring off the glass). But, you don't tell a superstar that you want him to come play for your team and be the third option. You tell him he will be an equal partner in the offense and the core of the defense ala KG in 2007.

If the dream scenario of Howard coming to town and KG and Ray staying on vet min deals pans out, Howard will probably be the third look out of the half court offense too. He'll be the first look a lot in transition and he'll get plenty of looks, but I trust Ray and Pierce more in a half court offense to get good looks at the basket and that also frees up Howard to wreak havok on the glass. Despite this, Howard would still probably end up averaging the most points of anyone besides Pierce on the team due to his rebounding and transition offense. And, the Celtics would get him the ball in situations were rotations left him uncovered or matched up against an undersized player and he will get a lot of points that way despite the offense not running through him.

[EddieYost]

The fact that it even came up is ridiculous. It should have been "come play on the Lakers, we will win a couple championships" but instead the rapist is worried that he might lose a little star power. What a huge douche.

[BucketOBalls]

Wow, that is the most concrete thing I've seen yet that Kobe is a dick. I mean, wow. You know anyone who goes there would be second fiddle to him(it's obvious), but it's pretty impressive that he came out and said it to the best player in league at his position.

LA was really lucky to manage to put Gasol and Odom around him. Probably the greatest ratio of talent/spine ever.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

So apparently Howard decided that the Lakers weren't the best long term situation after Kobe told him he would have to play third fiddle after himself and Gasol. You can't make this shit up.

http://basketball.re...f_Dwight_Howard

[left]

It doesn't sound like Kobe Bryant will have a second career as a talent recruiter.

the label says it all:

Edited by The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa, 05 February 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Reardons Beard]

So Dwight thinks Kobe is a twat? He's halfway to Boston already!

[lars10]

So Dwight thinks Kobe is a twat? He's halfway to Boston already!

Yeah..it's funny..that 'article' also ends with saying that the only two teams with a realistic chance of signing him are the Nets and Magic...

[lostjumper]

Wacky out-from-left-field idea thought.

One thing that people have never been able to answer is why Doc came back to the C's when everyone assumed he woudl leave. He had his choice of jobs, that was rumored to included the Heat job with Wade recruiting him, he wanted to spend more time with his family down in Florida, etc. Yet out of no where sings a 5 year extension with the C's when they appear to be on the decline with aging stars? My tinfoil hat theory is that he knows something about Howard that makes him believe Howard will take a hard look at the C's. Maybe Howard really looks up to Doc and wants to play for him after dealing with the Van Gundy's of the world. Maybe Bill Russell, who Howard looks up to, has spoken with him. Who knows, and I'm sure its a pipe dream, but lets go with it.

From the Celtic's point of view, they now have the best center in the league, and one of the best point guards. They have Pierce at SF, and then KG and Ray come back for cheap to man the other 2 spots. They have all the money they need, and are first ballot hall-of-famers. The only thing they care about at this point is rings. Getting backups to play behind that starting 5 should be easy, and makes them the odds on favorite for a championship or 2.

From Howards point of view, he goes to an organization that a legacy of winning championships. Its immediately the best roster, and especially the best pg he's ever played with. And he gets to play for the best coach he's ever had. He can't make the max that he would as a magic, but its still a truckload of money. He gets a legit shot at a whole bunch of rings. Its nice to think about at least...

/pipe dream

[Reardons Beard]

Wacky out-from-left-field idea thought.

One thing that people have never been able to answer is why Doc came back to the C's when everyone assumed he woudl leave. He had his choice of jobs, that was rumored to included the Heat job with Wade recruiting him, he wanted to spend more time with his family down in Florida, etc. Yet out of no where sings a 5 year extension with the C's when they appear to be on the decline with aging stars? My tinfoil hat theory is that he knows something about Howard that makes him believe Howard will take a hard look at the C's. Maybe Howard really looks up to Doc and wants to play for him after dealing with the Van Gundy's of the world. Maybe Bill Russell, who Howard looks up to, has spoken with him. Who knows, and I'm sure its a pipe dream, but lets go with it.

From the Celtic's point of view, they now have the best center in the league, and one of the best point guards. They have Pierce at SF, and then KG and Ray come back for cheap to man the other 2 spots. They have all the money they need, and are first ballot hall-of-famers. The only thing they care about at this point is rings. Getting backups to play behind that starting 5 should be easy, and makes them the odds on favorite for a championship or 2.

From Howards point of view, he goes to an organization that a legacy of winning championships. Its immediately the best roster, and especially the best pg he's ever played with. And he gets to play for the best coach he's ever had. He can't make the max that he would as a magic, but its still a truckload of money. He gets a legit shot at a whole bunch of rings. Its nice to think about at least...

/pipe dream

I'll smoke that.

[86spike]

Or maybe Dwight wants to play with his friend Deron Williams and they hope a couple of guys like Ray and KG will want to join them in Brooklyn for a run.

yeah, I know...

[dylanmarsh]

Forgive me for not being up to speed on the new CBA, but could Howard sign a one-year deal for 12-13 and then get a true max contract from the team he's signing for in 12-13? Would Howard reestablish Bird rights with his new team? What's the max amount on a one-year deal?

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I can't find a source that has the new CBA in full, but I believe that Bird Rights can still be traded, but that once a player is either waived or switches teams through free agency, it takes 3 years to reestablish his Bird rights.