176 replies to this topic

[drleather2001]

Apparently the board said "Third Down" when it was actually fourth, causing Cundiff to rush his routine.

On one hand, it was probably an honest accident. On the other, whoever made that mistake should be fired.

Regardless, given the history of this franchise, the uproar over this is going to sting a little.

Be prepared for the indignation and baseless accusations.

EDIT: Deadspin has it. This is going to dominate the next two days. Gross.

Edited by drleather2001, 24 January 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Looks like the confusion came after the Boldin fumble out of bounds.

OK, so Cundiff rushed his routine and the coaches had to keep yelling at him to get out there. Why didn't Harbaugh call his last time out if that was the case? They ended up kicking the ball with only 2 seconds left on the play clock.

[abty]

What a shame that it's 'the kicker's fault'. What a joke. I was shocked as to how they rushed it and this helps explain it a bit more. With that said, I can't respect the 'leaders' of the Ravens defense, or their coach, if they shit can him while not realizing they pissed away this game 3 different times without Condiff. What a joke. I can't recall a bigger choke job by a team in such a spot. Ridiculous as it involved players and the coaches.

[Mooch]

Isn't that why there are down markers on both sides of the field? Looking at that attempt again, both of them clearly show that its 4th Down.

[drleather2001]

Looks like the confusion came after the Boldin fumble out of bounds.

OK, so Cundiff rushed his routine and the coaches had to keep yelling at him to get out there. Why didn't Harbaugh call his last time out if that was the case? They ended up kicking the ball with only 2 seconds left on the play clock.

Any other franchise would get a pass. You just know that the Patriots won't.

[tims4wins]

Looks like the confusion came after the Boldin fumble out of bounds.

OK, so Cundiff rushed his routine and the coaches had to keep yelling at him to get out there. Why didn't Harbaugh call his last time out if that was the case? They ended up kicking the ball with only 2 seconds left on the play clock.

Exactly. I believe the play happened with 15 seconds left of game clock. There is pretty much no use for the timeout if he makes the kick. When would he have used it? Before the kickoff? No. Before the last Patriots play of the game, which in all likelihood would have been a kneeldown? No. The only scenario I guess he could have used it is if the Pats got a big return on the kickoff and were in position for either a hail mary or a game winning field goal. Even so, a timeout would have very limited use.

Harbaugh 100% botched this. Anyone who says the Pats got lucky is ignoring the fact that coaching decisions matter in these games, and the Ravens coach shit the bed at the most important time in the game.

Edited by tims4wins, 24 January 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Stevie1der]

What a shame that it's 'the kicker's fault'. What a joke. I was shocked as to how they rushed it and this helps explain it a bit more. With that said, I can't respect the 'leaders' of the Ravens defense, or their coach, if they shit can him while not realizing they pissed away this game 3 different times without Condiff. What a joke. I can't recall a bigger choke job by a team in such a spot. Ridiculous as it involved players and the coaches.

FWIW, Ray Lewis after the game, "As a man, I said it earlier: Not one play won or lost this game. Could you have put us in a position to keep playing? Absolutely, but one play didn't win or lose the game. There is no one man who has ever lost a game. There is no 'it's Billy's fault' here or 'Billy missed the kick.' It happens. Move on, move on, because life doesn't stop."

Also, now that this story is out there, is there any doubt that Gregg Easterbrook is sitting at home right now sporting a massive boner?

[Dernells Casket n Flagon]

Is the stadium scoreboard an official record keeper of what down it is?

I understand expecting it to be correct, but shouldn't the down markers on the sidelines at the LOS be the only official locations?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The on-field marker correctly said 4th down.

Clearly, a bunch of people on the Ravens sideline knew what down it was if the reports that they yelled at Cundiff six times or more to get ready are true. So while I can see why the scoreboard error occurred, certainly that's no excuse for the Ravens rushing around while they had a time out sitting in their pocket.

[dcmissle]

Any other franchise would get a pass. You just know that the Patriots won't.

Terrell Suggs took this dog -- in the person of Skip Bayless -- and shot it square between the eyes.

Lets see if TMQ attempts CPR.

[Scriblerus]

Not to mention, if the Ravens call time-out, and then notice the scoreboard error, is there any doubt the officials fix it and give the Ravens the time-out back again? This is all on the coaches. To not call that time-out, especially if there was confusion on the side-line, is unbelievable.

Hopefully, this becomes a non-starter, but you know, especially with adjectives like Machiavellian being thrown around, that this is going to be ugly for a day or two.

[BoredViewer]

The guy should be able to make a 32yd FG, 5 seconds after being woken up by a bucket of cold water... this is silly.

[smastroyin]

It is really asinine. I mean I assume they didn't give Ray Rice at least one shot (I would have given it to him on 3rd and 1 then either called the TO if he came short or spiked it if he got the first down) because they wanted to conserve that timeout. There is literally no point to conserving the TO if you aren't going to use it when there is some confusion. All on Harbaugh and his ST coach.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This is all going into the Pats Got Lucky meme.

To which I say, kiss my ass:
http://www.footballn...y-hardly/13151/

(Yes, I'm pimping. Go ahead and kill me for it).

[Jnai]

If only there were some mechanism where teams could stop the clock to give themselves extra time in important situations!

[bakahump]

As BB would say:

BB- "Gostkowski is a football player. He needs to be ready to perform his job when we need him to perform it. Downs on the scoreboard shouldnt matter. We as a coaching staff need to be aware of game situation and should have made him aware"

Reporter-"But do you think if he thought it was 3rd down he might not have been ready"

BB- "I think I covered that".

[Prodigal Sox]

It is really asinine. I mean I assume they didn't give Ray Rice at least one shot (I would have given it to him on 3rd and 1 then either called the TO if he came short or spiked it if he got the first down) because they wanted to conserve that timeout. There is literally no point to conserving the TO if you aren't going to use it when there is some confusion. All on Harbaugh and his ST coach.

Is it possible that the Ravens lost track of how many time outs they had left?

[tims4wins]

Is it possible that the Ravens lost track of how many time outs they had left?

If that is the case, then they deserve all the more blame.

Edited by tims4wins, 24 January 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[bsj]

Do you know how many times a game the scoreboard and/or TV down marker is off?

[Gambler7]

The timeout being left kills this "story". They had no reason not to use it.

They asked Belichick on WEEI yesterday why he chose not to "ice" the kicker and call a timeout. He said he thought about it but noticed they seemed to be late getting the kicking team out on the field and were rushing a little so he decided to just let them go ahead.

Harbaugh had plenty of time to call the timeout.

[tims4wins]

They asked Belichick on WEEI yesterday why he chose not to "ice" the kicker and call a timeout. He said he thought about it but noticed they seemed to be late getting the kicking team out on the field and were rushing a little so he decided to just let them go ahead.

That is amazing. All the more proof that the genius Harbaugh completely fucked this up.

[mt8thsw9th]

This is all going into the Pats Got Lucky meme.

There was a leprechaun in the scoreboard!

[DrewDawg]

Didn't the ref on the field also announce it was second down after they spotted the fumble? Maybe not, I was hyperventilating at the time, but I thought he did.

[Stitch01]

The scoreboard said 4th down by the time it was 4th down IIRC. The issue was that it said 2nd down on the play before. I was at the game and very confused as to what down it was.

If the Ravens have a complaint, it would be if they thought 3rd down was actually 2nd down and called a pass play designed to score a TD instead of trying to run or throw a short pass for the 1st down.

Complaining about missing the kick doesnt fly because, as mentioned above, the Ravens had a TO in their pocket.

To be fair, the Ravens arent bitching about it. Just saying there was some confusion, which there obviously was. My respect for Terrell Suggs has gone up measurably after watching clips of him battling history's greatest troll on First Take over the last month.

[Oogies Loogies]

It shouldn't be an issue, but as mentioned, because it's the Patriots, it will be with the "Belicheat" crowd.

I wonder why the NFL doesn't use an "official" scoreboard operator during the playoffs, someone who is employed by the league or at least isn't employed by the home team or stadium.

[DrewDawg]

<p>

This is all going into the Pats Got Lucky meme.

To which I say, kiss my ass:
http://www.footballn...y-hardly/13151/

(Yes, I'm pimping. Go ahead and kill me for it).

Nit-picking, but I think your article says Ray Rice had 45 yards rushing.  Everything I've seen says 67.
http://sports.yahoo....gid=20120122017

Your point still holds though.

Edited by DrewDawg, 24 January 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Drocca]

This is all going into the Pats Got Lucky meme.

To which I say, kiss my ass:
http://www.footballn...y-hardly/13151/

(Yes, I'm pimping. Go ahead and kill me for it).

Allow me to be blunt: anyone who tells you the Patriots "got lucky" in the AFC Championship against the Ravens doesn’t know much about football.

I know a little bit about football and enough about sports in general to know that luck plays a role in ALL games. Not just that game. ALL games.

The juxtaposition of that article with the bio-line "have tried to bring an analytical [sp] view to the sport." is really funny.

I think it is awesome that you are writing. I think it would be more awesome if you just went out and admitted that are writing about something from an irrational point of view.

There was luck in that game, SJH. There is luck in every game.

Edited by Drocca, 24 January 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Allow me to be blunt: anyone who tells you the Patriots "got lucky" in the AFC Championship against the Ravens doesn’t know much about football.

I know a little bit about football and enough about sports in general to know that luck plays a role in ALL games. Not just that game. ALL games.

The juxtaposition of that article with the bio-line "have tried to bring an analytical [sp] view to the sport." is really funny.

I think it is awesome that you are writing. I think it would be more awesome if you just went out and admitted that are writing about something from an irrational point of view.

There was luck in that game, SJH. There is luck in every game.


The juxtaposition of te

There is luck in every game. The Pats didn't win because of it alone, which seems to be a common theme from what I've been hearing/reading. "The Pats didn't win, the Ravens blew it!" type of stuff.

[Stitch01]

The Pats arent going to get any flak for this, its obvious why the error occured.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

<p>

Nit-picking, but I think your article says Ray Rice had 45 yards rushing. Everything I've seen says 67.
http://sports.yahoo....gid=20120122017

Your point still holds though.

Dammit, you're right. I'll send in a correction.

[Drocca]

There is luck in every game. The Pats didn't win because of it alone, which seems to be a common theme from what I've been hearing/reading. "The Pats didn't win, the Ravens blew it!" type of stuff.

Oh. I haven't heard that once but I'm not in a New England centric area where that would maybe exist. I've heard that both games were great, went down to the wire and, unfortunately, came down to costly mistakes. I'd say that's accurate.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Oh. I haven't heard that once but I'm not in a New England centric area where that would maybe exist. I've heard that both games were great, went down to the wire and, unfortunately, came down to costly mistakes. I'd say that's accurate.

I guess my argument is that the Ravens made the costly mistake on the FG precisely because the Pats made key stops in the defensive game to force them into that attempt.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This Youtube clip shows Cundiff running out there in a big damn hurry with only .14 left on the play clock. With the added bonus of beginning with Moore's second great defensive play.

No excuse not to take the time out, IMO. They clearly weren't ready and rushed everything.

[bowiac]

I wonder why the NFL doesn't use an "official" scoreboard operator during the playoffs, someone who is employed by the league or at least isn't employed by the home team or stadium.

I assume it's because the scoreboard isn't official - the refs have their own time keeping/scorekeeping methods I believe?

[abty]

FWIW, Ray Lewis after the game, "As a man, I said it earlier: Not one play won or lost this game. Could you have put us in a position to keep playing? Absolutely, but one play didn't win or lose the game. There is no one man who has ever lost a game. There is no 'it's Billy's fault' here or 'Billy missed the kick.' It happens. Move on, move on, because life doesn't stop."

Also, now that this story is out there, is there any doubt that Gregg Easterbrook is sitting at home right now sporting a massive boner?

Ty for that. Much respect to Ray for saying that. With that said, I don't know how he could be so calm after such a loss.

[smastroyin]

I think drocca's point is more to the fact of something like the Sterling Moore play. Because we choose to believe in such things, we just say it is a great football play by Moore, end of story. It was a great football play but Moore and the Patriots were really lucky. How often does a receiver get two hands on the ball in the end zone and not retain possession. It's not all that often. Really, he was lucky that Evans left foot didn't come down a microsecond earlier. He was lucky that Evans caught the ball in a way that allowed him to knock it out - if Evans forearm is in a slightly different position he doesn't have the angle, etc. A great football play that took a lot of good luck to turn into a great result.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think drocca's point is more to the fact of something like the Sterling Moore play. Because we choose to believe in such things, we just say it is a great football play by Moore, end of story. It was a great football play but Moore and the Patriots were really lucky. How often does a receiver get two hands on the ball in the end zone and not retain possession. It's not all that often. Really, he was lucky that Evans left foot didn't come down a microsecond earlier. He was lucky that Evans caught the ball in a way that allowed him to knock it out. etc. A great football play that took a lot of good luck to turn into a great result.

I certainly agree that many plays and even games are decided by a lucky bounce here or there. The Giants getting a ball back because a punt hit the returner's knee comes to mind.

I disagree in regards to that play you mention, though. That was a great football play. How could it not be? He was alert and aware and got himself in position to try to knock it away. He never gave up on the play. Calling it lucky is giving Moore absolutely no credit.

That was a great fucking play.

[Drocca]

I think drocca's point is more to the fact of something like the Sterling Moore play. Because we choose to believe in such things, we just say it is a great football play by Moore, end of story. It was a great football play but Moore and the Patriots were really lucky. How often does a receiver get two hands on the ball in the end zone and not retain possession. It's not all that often. Really, he was lucky that Evans left foot didn't come down a microsecond earlier. He was lucky that Evans caught the ball in a way that allowed him to knock it out. etc. A great football play that took a lot of good luck to turn into a great result.

So much better than I said it.

I HATE when football games get boiled down to a mistake as opposed to plays made, which is where I think SJH is going. But the Patriots were lucky as hell on several big plays and non-plays in critical situations. I mean, I'd argue luck might be the most valuable commodity this time of year. The difference in skill and talent between teams this good is just not that large. Luck and circumstance is huge. Harbaugh fucked up on the circumstance part.

[Drocca]

I certainly agree that many plays and even games are decided by a lucky bounce here or there. The Giants getting a ball back because a punt hit the returner's knee comes to mind.

I disagree in regards to that play you mention, though. That was a great football play. How could it not be? He was alert and aware and got himself in position to try to knock it away. He never gave up on the play. Calling it lucky is giving Moore absolutely no credit.

That was a great fucking play.

Are you serious? That play defines luck in football.

I think you meant to say "That was a great fucking play to watch as a Patriots fan."

Which would be right and honest.

Edited by Drocca, 24 January 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Are you serious? That play defines luck in football.

How on earth do you figure? Moore knocked it away. Evans didn't make an unforced error and drop it. I'm genuinely confused here.

[Gambler7]

Another thing Belichick mentioned on WEEI is that they practice what Moore did to knock the ball out pretty often in practice. So yea , some luck involved that he dropped it before getting the second foot down, but it is something they teach them to do.

[Drocca]

Moore's hand was late and Evans beat him on the route. Moore was lucky that Evans didn't secure the ball and tap his first down quickly,

That's my view but I have only watched it twice and could be wrong.

[tims4wins]

I mean, I'd argue luck might be the most valuable commodity this time of year. The difference in skill and talent between teams this good is just not that large. Luck and circumstance is huge. Harbaugh fucked up on the circumstance part.

I 10000% agree with this. It goes all the way back to the Tuck Rule game. The Pats were fortunate that the ref made the correct ruling. The following week in Pittsburgh the officials spotted the ball on the wrong hashmark on Troy Brown's punt return TD. It was a minute detail that may have played a huge difference in the game. There were many other such instances in the title years. And flipping the script, the Pats were unlucky against Denver when it was ruled that Champ Bailey's fumble wasn't a touchback. They were unlucky against Indy with some pass interference calls. They were lucky on the San Diego interception / strip play. In 2007 they were extremely unlucky on the Asante missed pick and on the helmet catch. It goes on and on and on. These playoff teams are so incredibly evenly matched in most games that it comes down to breaks. Sure, teams have to put themselves in position to be the beneficiary of those breaks (like the Pats did with the Moore play). The Giants were a great example on Sunday - if the refs call it a fumble by Bradshaw, the Niners are in the Super Bowl, and all the talk about the Giants being the "hot" team is over.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Moore's hand was late and Evans beat him on the route. Moore was lucky that Evans didn't secure the ball and tap his first down quickly,

That's my view but I have only watched it twice and could be wrong.

Moore didn't even know the play call due to the hurry-up, so he said after the game. He just went man-to-man with Evans once he broke into his area of the field.

[Drocca]

That's actually really awesome. THAT is talent, I'll give you that.

[Average Reds]

Looking at the video posted by SJH, I got the exact same feeling I got in real time - Cundiff was a little late getting out on the field, but he was still set with plenty of time.

If anyone believes that being rushed caused him to miss that kick, they have no one to blame but Harbaugh for not calling timeout.

[twothousandone]

3rd down or 4th, isn't it time left on the play clock and/or game clock that would make one "hurry." Kicker should be on the sideline ready to go. When he hears the coah say field goal, he runs out. If they are running out of time and have a TO, they use it.

But I must be misunderstanding the complication. Whe did he have to hurry?

[smastroyin]

Before Instant Replay that is called a touchdown, which is not to say it should have been called a touchdown, just to say how close it was.

The difference in how fast Evans gets his foot down is just not that perceptible. So Moore needed luck. He knocked it out as fast as he could but if "as fast as he could" took a nearly imperceptible slice of time longer, it's a TD.

2001 he thought it was third down and was therefore still practicing kicks, not standing on the sideline.

[Gambler7]

I thought it was weird he was practicing kicks with his heavy sweatpants on just seconds before he was actually kicking in the game. Is that more normal than I realize?

[loshjott]

What is ironic is that if Cundiff had been a little more unprepared and didn't get out there in time, and got a delay of game penalty, then he would have had plenty of time to prepare for a chippy of 37 yards. Ravens picked the exact wrong second to snap that ball.