248 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

Mentioned Monday that Scutaro was a target. Rox want a veteran there, and he would could help lineup pieces fit.

Scutaro not a done deal. But Rockies are talking, trying to get it done. He would start at 2B and could hit second in lineup.
Hearing that the Rockies are close to acquiring Boston's Marco Scutaro. Will keep you posted

https://twitter.com/#!/TroyRenck

Full time Punto?

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 20 January 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[SoxScout]

-$6M

[Al Zarilla]

https://twitter.com/#!/TroyRenck

Full time Punto?

If so, I may just hibernate from baseball this year. Go Patriots and Bruins! Nah, can't, if I didn't give up in the pre-Yaz years...

[Rasputin]

https://twitter.com/#!/TroyRenck

Full time Punto?

What's the harm, they said, he's a utility player, they said.

[Foulkey Reese]

Well if you have to choose between adding Oswalt and having a crappy SS, or keeping Scutaro and having a dangerously thin rotation, I guess on some level....

Ah nevermind.

I'll cut myself if Punto is the full time SS.

[Kramerica Industries]

this has to mean they are spending money on sp, right? Right?

[SoxScout]

this has to mean they are spending money on sp, right? Right?

COL traded Slowey today to free up room for Scutaro, whom we are trading to free up room for someone, I would imagine.

I would have taken Slowey back in the deal, I wanted him in the first place.

I would think this means Oswalt or Floyd.

Edited by SoxScout, 20 January 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[TomRicardo]

I would assume Floyd

[IpswichSox]

Not Punto give SS to Inglesias and use the money saved to get Owswalt. I'm ok with the kid at SS for more SP.

[Kramerica Industries]

Pump the brakes

Talks are now fizzling on Scutaro, acc to source with direct knowledge with talks. Boston doesn't have a SS option, making it reluctant

https://twitter.com/...493380030308352

Edited by Kramerica Industries, 20 January 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[MartyBarrettMVP]

Not happening. Apparently, the Sox forgot they traded Lowrie...?

https://twitter.com/...493596104065024

Edit: Beat to the punch by Kramerica

Edited by MartyBarrettMVP, 20 January 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[TheGoldenGreek33]

Sweet. Darnell in LF, Sweeney in RF, and Punto at SS opening day!

[Sprowl]

Pump the brakes

Talks are now fizzling on Scutaro, acc to source with direct knowledge with talks. Boston doesn't have a SS option, making it reluctant

https://twitter.com/...493380030308352

This only just occurred to Cherington after talks were advanced enough to leak?

[Rasputin]

Not Punto give SS to Inglesias and use the money saved to get Owswalt. I'm ok with the kid at SS for more SP.

Giving SS to Iglesias would, at this point, be worse than giving it to Punto.

[SoxScout]

This only just occurred to Cherington after talks were advanced enough to leak?

In the original story on the DP it said Lowrie would take over for the Sox. Renck fucked up.

[judyb]

This only just occurred to Cherington after talks were advanced enough to leak?

How advanced do trade talks with the Rockies have to be before they leak?

[nvalvo]

One additional reason that these rumors don't pass the smell test:

If there was A) a robust trade market for Scutaro, and B) a huge payroll crunch, why exactly did we deal Lowrie?

Lowrie is cheaper enough than Scutaro to be worth the difference in their projected 2012 ability, assuming we can't otherwise afford a fifth starter. Hand SS to the Arb1 guy is the first thing you do when you're up against your budget.

[cshea]

Theoretically, Aviles could take over primary SS duties if Scutaro was moved.

Whether that's a good idea or not is a different question.

Edited by cshea, 20 January 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[Rasputin]

How advanced do trade talks with the Rockies have to be before they leak?

Depends.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

This only just occurred to Cherington after talks were advanced enough to leak?

Well, Cherington was part of the brain trust that traded Hanley and Renteria within a month of each other while Theo was on his sabbatical, leaving Alex Cora as the only viable internal option at SS.

Edited by Red(s)HawksFan, 20 January 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[4-6-3]

Sweet. Darnell in LF, Sweeney in RF, and Punto at SS opening day!

It's a bridge year. Difficult to watch the Sox try to fix holes with no payroll room.

[Jnai]

Bad teams with optimistic fan bases always seem to be in bridge years.

The rest of us can see it for what it is: bad management.

[Clears Cleaver]

Sweet. Darnell in LF, Sweeney in RF, and Punto at SS opening day!

has a team ever been booed out of their own stadium on Opening Day? And Crawford and Lackey may not even be there

[Yaz4Ever]

What (who?) were we supposedly getting back from COL if this trade came to fruition?

[Plympton91]

Scutaro is worth $6 million as a shortstop; I'm not sure he's worth $6 million as a secondbaseman.

[rembrat]

I'd guess straight salary dump, so maybe some prospects. The Rockies are dreadful.

[Div School Sox Fan]

We have exceptionally little information as to what exactly went down. There are several possibilities:

-It is possible, I guess, that Cherington is an idiot who didn't know he would need a starting shortstop.
-It is possible that the Red Sox are spending $170M next year and don't plan to compete, so they don't care about having a competent mlb shortstop.
-It seems a lot more likely that this Rockies deal was part of a set of moves, in which the Red Sox would also acquire a new shortstop. If another moving piece was what held up the trade, that would explain why the Rockies thought it was close before it fell through.
-It could also be that a phone call or two, with no significant movement toward a trade, got misinterpreted somehow by Renck.

I find the latter two explanations significantly more plausible.

Edited by Div School Sox Fan, 20 January 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Harry Hooper]

Well, at this point it might be worth noting that a certain club owes the Sox some compensation and suddenly has a cheap SS who might need a change of scenery:

http://www.mlbnewson...-lies-with.html

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Well, at this point it might be worth noting that a certain club owes the Sox some compensation and suddenly has a cheap SS who might need a change of scenery:

http://www.mlbnewson...-lies-with.html

No, it's not worth mentioning. Starlin Castro is not walking through that door.

[lexrageorge]

Well, Cherington was part of the brain trust that traded Hanley and Renteria within a month of each other while Theo was on his sabbatical, leaving Alex Cora as the only viable internal option at SS.

Yes, and how did that Hanley trade work out in 2007?

[ThatsMyPeskyPole]

Well, at this point it might be worth noting that a certain club owes the Sox some compensation and suddenly has a cheap SS who might need a change of scenery:

http://www.mlbnewson...-lies-with.html

Change of scenery might be jail.
Trading Youk makes some sense if Middlebrooks is very close. This budget stuff sucks.

[E5 Yaz]

This budget stuff sucks.

While there have been reports that the Red Sox have expressed interest in White Sox starting pitcher Gavin Floyd (who will make $7 million in '12) and free agent outfielder Cody Ross, according to a source neither move could be made unless a trade was made to offer budgetary relief.

They can't sign Cody Ross without clearing salary.

http://www.weei.com/...t-scutaro-trade

Cody Ross.

[Van Everyman]

Jnai,

Are you saying the Red Sox have bad management? If so, you are dreadfully over reading this situation and offseason.

(null)

[Van Everyman]

Also, it is worth noting that, while yes, it would leave us without a starting SS for the time being, Scutaro is a super valuable chip -- a veteran at a premium position signed at reasonable dollars. If trading him helps you upgrade significantly in the rotation, you take that risk.





(null)

[nothumb]

Also, it is worth noting that, while yes, it would leave us without a starting SS for the time being, Scutaro is a super valuable chip -- a veteran at a premium position signed at reasonable dollars. If trading him helps you upgrade significantly in the rotation, you take that risk.

This is a completely empty platitude. If trading him helps you upgrade significantly in the rotation AND you have even a halfway viable backup at SS, you consider it. If you can predict with some confidence that the upgrade at SP will outweigh the downgrade at SS, you pull the trigger. Maybe. I haven't seen any such comparison as of yet, and I don't think this trade was ever a serious proposition.

Having a 170MM payroll while still lacking a credible SP and some fringe pieces, and NOT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD THEM, is bad management. It's like having a McMansion in the suburbs, two luxury cars and a country club membership and not being able to pick up your dry cleaning until after you get paid. If it's not bad management, please, what is it?

Edited by nothumb, 21 January 2012 - 02:25 AM.

[Wingack]

Could the Sox be interested in one of the starting pitchers the Rockies just got back from the A's? There could be a match on that.

[rembrat]

Outman and Moscoso aren't good. Really, of the guys availabe there is no one on that 25 you would want.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Outman and Moscoso aren't good. Really, of the guys availabe there is no one on that 25 you would want.

Yeah, that was what puzzled me about the rumor in the first place. You'd have to assume we'd be trading for prospects. Either that, or a three-way deal (e.g. for Floyd).

This is a completely empty platitude. If trading him helps you upgrade significantly in the rotation AND you have even a halfway viable backup at SS, you consider it. If you can predict with some confidence that the upgrade at SP will outweigh the downgrade at SS, you pull the trigger.

One thing, though: I (and others around here) have been assuming all along that the Punto pickup signaled lack of confidence in Aviles as the backup SS. What if we had it 100 percent wrong? What if the Punto pickup signaled that they liked Aviles enough to consider him a viable option as the starting SS, and wanted to be ready for a possible Scutaro trade?

Having a 170MM payroll while still lacking a credible SP and some fringe pieces, and NOT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD THEM, is bad management. It's like having a McMansion in the suburbs, two luxury cars and a country club membership and not being able to pick up your dry cleaning until after you get paid. If it's not bad management, please, what is it?

Well, you could argue that it's bad luck. But I think the truth is that it's a little of both.

[maufman]

Even if Scutaro is here, there's a decent chance we'll be using Punto as our starting SS a fair amount this season. Scutaro is 36, and iirc, the consensus here last season was that he was nursing some sort of arm injury. (Considering how weak some of his throws across the diamond looked, an injury is probably the more optimistic assumption.) Keeping Scutaro isn't a risk-free option in itself -- and evidently, it brings with it the risk of counting on filling two rotation spots with some combination of Bard, Aceves, and retreads with ST invites.

If dumping Scutaro clears the way for the Sox to acquire Gavin Floyd, you do that in a heartbeat -- but I'm skeptical we can acquire Floyd without gutting the farm system.

If the target is instead Oswalt, that's a tougher decision. Sure, it's great if Oswalt can pitch anywhere close to his career norms, but (1) even if it works, you're shopping for another short-term fix a year from now, and (2) given Oswalt's health, you're still going into Spring Training with two question marks in the rotation, plus you've created an additional question mark at shortstop.

[Rough Carrigan]

Isn't it funny how the Theo Epstein mantra of some years back was "payroll flexibility" but he left this team with none before jetting off to Chitown for more money for himself.

Thanks asshole!

[smastroyin]

I have to agree with Jnai. It may not be a permanent situation but I definitely feel like the only plan entering this offseason was to shed payroll. That's bad management. Teams that shed payroll don't really win. Not winning leads to making less money...etc.

I mean, as far as I have heard they haven't even dealt with the Lackey contract situation. It's just sloppy and it feels like things aren't getting done so much as just happening. That is not on Ben alone, but when talking management I mean everyone.

Truth be told, I am much more pissed that Theo let the baseball ops group dissolve so his buddies could get better jobs, then went ahead and rounded them back up, and took more guys from the Sox with him. I just think they have lost too much talent in the FO and one off-season of disarray isn't enough to replace it. I'm glad Cherington is getting a chance but the more I think about it, the more I think they would have been better off with a completely new voice who would bring in some of their own people rather than dealing with the table scraps left behind by Theo.

All of that said, while I am a Scutaro fan, if they were able to turn his salary into something useful, I would not think it would be a big cause for alarm. Aviles can hold the fort and with WMB closer to the majors they don't have to worry as much about Aviles playing a lot of games at 3B is Youk or Agon goes down.

[Jinhocho]

Bad teams with optimistic fan bases always seem to be in bridge years.

The rest of us can see it for what it is: bad management.

100% agree with this.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I mean, as far as I have heard they haven't even dealt with the Lackey contract situation. It's just sloppy and it feels like things aren't getting done so much as just happening. That is not on Ben alone, but when talking management I mean everyone.

What haven't they "dealt with"? His contract says that if he misses significant time due to the elbow, a team option triggers for an additional year at the league minimum. Whatever is ultimately laid out as "significant time", Lackey hasn't missed it yet. He hasn't missed a single game, in fact. I'm not a contract lawyer, but I would imagine he actually has to miss the time - as inevitable as it may be - before they can do anything. Further, what difference does it make? The CBT is calculated at the end of the season so when they do it has no bearing on their tax status and it doesn't change the terms previous to that sixth year, so it would have effect on their cash at hand.

Truth be told, I am much more pissed that Theo let the baseball ops group dissolve so his buddies could get better jobs, then went ahead and rounded them back up, and took more guys from the Sox with him. I just think they have lost too much talent in the FO and one off-season of disarray isn't enough to replace it.

What option do you think Theo had? If he had denied his subordinates an opportunity for promotion - and the power, money and stature that comes with that - do you think they would have happily gone about their jobs and stayed with the team for their entire careers? Josh Byrnes left in 2005 - if Theo didn't let him interview with ARI, do you think he would have re-upped with the Sox after his contract was up? Hoyer? No, they would have left, likely in a lateral move for a team that treated it's employees better.

I agree that it sucks the FO got poached, but 1.) Theo poached most of them from elsewhere to begin with and 2.) that's what happens when you're successful. Professional sports is about a small handful of teams "figuring it out" or building a system that works and then everyone else trying to copy that - hence you're going to lose coaches and FO members. There's no way around it.

[E5 Yaz]

Isn't it funny how the Theo Epstein mantra of some years back was "payroll flexibility" but he left this team with none before jetting off to Chitown for more money for himself.

Thanks asshole!

Yeah, it's too bad Theo had such total control over the Red Sox payroll that he never had to get major contracts approved by ownership.

We get it, you hate Theo.

[Plympton91]

It's a bridge year. Difficult to watch the Sox try to fix holes with no payroll room.

What holes do the Red Sox have? They are currently set to get above average production from all 25 spots on the roster. Come off the ledge.

[RedOctober3829]

What holes do the Red Sox have? They are currently set to get above average production from all 25 spots on the roster. Come off the ledge.

Seriously? Have you looked at 3-5 in the rotation, RF, and LF?

[opes]

la la la not listening there are no holes in this team

[Al Zarilla]

Seriously? Have you looked at 3-5 in the rotation, RF, and LF?

Well, one solid starting pitcher must be Lester. Is the other Beckett or Buchholz?

[Plympton91]

Seriously? Have you looked at 3-5 in the rotation, RF, and LF?

I see no problem at all with Bucholz and Bard at #3 and #4, and the worst case scenario for #5 is that nobody steps up at all and they have to use Aceves there. That could potentially be a problem in the bullpen, where Aceves as the #3 behind Bailey and Melancon is strong and the dropoff from him is large. But, I'm comfortable with the risk of running a tryout camp for the #5 slot. People are underrating the likelihood that Tazawa or Doubront emerges strong and healthy as well, or that Alex Wilson steps up and wins the spot in spring training. With Matsuzaka reportedly ready to return by June, that is another option. Lots of assets here, no worries.

This basically shapes up as me believing that all the fretting about Bard converting to a starter is very similar to all the fretting about Derek Lowe converting to a starter. I expect very similar results. Hence, with a set of 4 number 2 starters, I'm not that worried about the 5th spot.

We don't even know for sure if Crawford is going to miss any time, and if he does it doesn't sound like much, so LF is fine. A platoon of Sweeney and McDonald is the worst case scenario in RF, which is very similar to the Nixon/Buford platoon of 1998 that worked great.

If the target is instead Oswalt, that's a tougher decision. Sure, it's great if Oswalt can pitch anywhere close to his career norms, but (1) even if it works, you're shopping for another short-term fix a year from now, and (2) given Oswalt's health, you're still going into Spring Training with two question marks in the rotation, plus you've created an additional question mark at shortstop.

A year from now you're slotting what is hopefully Lackey 2.0 back into the rotation, as he should be ready to go by spring training 2013.

[Rough Carrigan]

Yeah, it's too bad Theo had such total control over the Red Sox payroll that he never had to get major contracts approved by ownership.

We get it, you hate Theo.

Your argument is irrelevant to the point.
He spoke quite often in years past using the verbal talisman "payroll flexibility" to ward off suggestions that other things should be done.
The fact that he had to get approval to sign Crawford to a "payroll flexibility" evaporating contract doesn't change the fact that he wanted to do it, directly contradicting this principle that he'd called forth so many times.
If you could cite instances in which he was forced, against his better judgement, to sign a player to a contract which used up the Sox's payroll room then you'd have an argument. I dislike dumb arguments more than I dislike Theo Epstein.