224 replies to this topic

[Sampo Gida]

The problem is that in the end it will end up costing the team money. Who's going to replace Pineda in the rotation? Andy, who cost the Yankees another 2.5$ mill to sign. Who's going to replace him next season? Another free agent signing. It's going to hurt them $$ wise it's just not as obvious.

On the bright side Noesi is doing TERRIBLE for the Mariners, so you take can solace in that.

He had 2 bad starts out of 4, one of them against the Rangers. He has had more good games than Buchholz. You can't judge a player by what he has done in April.

Pujols stinks too, and Pedroia in April of 2007 had people saying he would never be anything more than a AAAA player.

The good news is Schilling says Pineda can come back in 10 months throwing 5 mph faster like he did.

[jon abbey]

Some rational and neutral perspective from Jay Jaffe at BP:

http://www.baseballp...articleid=16634

[Toe Nash]

Some rational and neutral perspective from Jay Jaffe at BP:

http://www.baseballp...articleid=16634

Ah yes, completely neutral:

As I pointed out when Fox Sports trumpeter Jon Paul Morosi gleefully proclaimed the score, the Mariners may actually be losing the deal given that they're squandering the service time of the trade's key asset in a season in which they're unlikely to contend. Keeping Montero down through April would have bought the Mariners another year before free agency, while keeping him down through June or July would have prevented him from becoming a Super Two.

So the Mariners doing what any team would do and playing the kid (and not pissing him off while also you know, getting some excitement going about their team) means they're losing the trade? they should have sent him down so they'd have an extra year before they had to pay him even though he's a human and pretty much proved he could hit MLB pitching last September?

The info on Pineda's potential for recovery is great, but Jaffe shows his colors in the final two paragraphs.

[Doctor G]

Recovery will probably include a substantial reworking of Pineda's mechanics. Perhaps the Yankees' emphasis on developing his change-up this spring had a hand in the labrum damage he experienced.

[ThePrideofShiner]

Ah yes, completely neutral:
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So the Mariners doing what any team would do and playing the kid (and not pissing him off while also you know, getting some excitement going about their team) means they're losing the trade? they should have sent him down so they'd have an extra year before they had to pay him even though he's a human and pretty much proved he could hit MLB pitching last September?

The info on Pineda's potential for recovery is great, but Jaffe shows his colors in the final two paragraphs.

You really think the Mariners are being smart by using Montero when they could keep him an extra two years if they kept him in the minors until June? These are the Mariners, who based on history will let him go in free agency if he pans out so it makes sense to try and keep him under control as long as possible.

I don't think what he wrote was trying to be biased, I think he was just pointing out that the Mariners "winning" the trade is not guaranteed.

Edited by ThePrideofShiner, 27 April 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[MakMan44]

You really think the Mariners are being smart by using Montero when they could keep him an extra two years if they kept him in the minors until June? These are the Mariners, who based on history will let him go in free agency if he pans out so it makes sense to try and keep him under control as long as possible.

Exactly and he is right. Delaying his free agency an extra year would've been smart and he wouldn't have had to been down long either.

Edited by MakMan44, 27 April 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[jon abbey]

Also, Jaffe was just reacting to Morosi's earlier piece in that part.

Edit: I did not realize that Jaffe also writes for the YES web site, so I definitely withdraw the "neutral" designation, sorry about that.

[Freddy Linn]

You really think the Mariners are being smart by using Montero when they could keep him an extra two years if they kept him in the minors until June? These are the Mariners, who based on history will let him go in free agency if he pans out so it makes sense to try and keep him under control as long as possible.

The Mariners have had a top 10 payroll in 8 of the last 10 years. They are paying Ichiro $18M and Felix a little over $15M. They spend money, just not particularly wisely.

[terrynever]

Cashman calls the Pineda trade a "massive decision gone wrong right now. All scrutiny is fair."

http://espn.go.com/n...sion-gone-wrong

Edited by terrynever, 27 April 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[rembrat]

"Right now, our hopes and dreams for this player are in jeopardy,'' Cashman said of Pineda.

Cashman is a master troll.

[jon abbey]

Cashman calls the Pineda trade a "massive decision gone wrong."

http://espn.go.com/n...sion-gone-wrong

Are you really going to cut his quote like that?

"This is a massive decision gone wrong right now,'' Cashman told ESPNNewYork.com on Friday. "So all scrutiny is fair.''

[terrynever]

Are you really going to cut his quote like that?

"This is a massive decision gone wrong right now,'' Cashman told ESPNNewYork.com on Friday. "So all scrutiny is fair.''

Yeah, I added it in before you posted.

[Sampo Gida]

Recovery will probably include a substantial reworking of Pineda's mechanics. Perhaps the Yankees' emphasis on developing his change-up this spring had a hand in the labrum damage he experienced.

My understanding is a changeup is thrown the same as a FB, and the only difference is the grip. Why would a changeup cause anymore stress on the shoulder than a FB?

Some rational and neutral perspective from Jay Jaffe at BP:

http://www.baseballp...articleid=16634

I think the neutrality of many blogs is more myth than real.

He has Clemens having labrum surgery but Clemens had a rotator cuff surgery (twice).

Also, even when enhanced MRI's will show a tear, you can not really tell the extent of the damage until the surgery. I remember Matt Clement having clean MRI's, but they did the surgery anyways since they knew something had to be wrong, and they found a rotator cuff tear and 2 labrum tears. There could be more damage than the MRI has picked up is what I am saying. So you really have to wait until the surgery before you start predicting recovery times and if he will be able to pitch anywhere close to how he pitched the 1st half of 2011.

That said, they have come a long way in labrum surgery. According to some figures I have seen seems he has a 33-66% chance of coming back close to where he was assuming he only has that 1 tear. Not quite as good as TJ Surgery which is 85-90%, but a lot better than the 3% figure that labrum surgery used to be.

[ThePrideofShiner]

The Mariners have had a top 10 payroll in 8 of the last 10 years. They are paying Ichiro $18M and Felix a little over $15M. They spend money, just not particularly wisely.

Fair point. I was just thinking about how they let so much talent leave back in the early '00s. You'd think they'd want to control Montero as long as possible, though they also need to generate some excitement in a lethargic fanbase and the way to do it is with one of your few offensive threats.

[EvilEmpire]

No idea how accurate this is, but something else from the link terrynever provided:

According to Dr. Chris Ahmad, the Yankees' team doctor who will assist in the surgery, and other sources who spoke to ESPNNewYork.com, the fact that Pineda's tear is in the anterior, or front, of the labrum increases his chances for a full recovery. A posterior labral tear often involves the rotator cuff, which Dr. Ahmad said was not affected in Pineda's case.
One source put Pineda's chances for a full recovery at 85 percent after a long period of rehabilitation, expected to be 12 months from the date of the surgery.

[jon abbey]

But I think Sempo Gida's point is correct, no one really knows until they actually go in there and see.

[Alternate34]

My understanding is a changeup is thrown the same as a FB, and the only difference is the grip. Why would a changeup cause anymore stress on the shoulder than a FB?

I don't endorse the following but I can think of a few ways that a change up could mess things up.

First, while a change up should be thrown the same as a fastball, a lot of pitchers do not end up throwing the change up with the same arm action. That is part of the trick with developing a change up is learning not to change anything about your arm speed and angle when throwing it. The changed grip for a change up takes away the natural feel for throwing that the pitcher has. Sometimes a pitcher can react funny to it. I would suspect that this would more true of a pitcher trying to adopt a new change up.

Second, there are tons of different grips for change ups. The different variations can put more or less stress on your forearm as compared to the fastball. I would think it would limited to the forearm and elbow, but the human body does some weird things to compensate for change. If the forearm is stressed more, a pitcher might unconscious start changing something that would effect their shoulder.

All that said, I think he probably got unlucky. Either his natural delivery screwed him up or he lost the labrum lottery (relatively since he has survived this long to be a major league pitcher).

[Doctor G]

I don't endorse the following but I can think of a few ways that a change up could mess things up.

First, while a change up should be thrown the same as a fastball, a lot of pitchers do not end up throwing the change up with the same arm action. That is part of the trick with developing a change up is learning not to change anything about your arm speed and angle when throwing it. The changed grip for a change up takes away the natural feel for throwing that the pitcher has. Sometimes a pitcher can react funny to it. I would suspect that this would more true of a pitcher trying to adopt a new change up.

Second, there are tons of different grips for change ups. The different variations can put more or less stress on your forearm as compared to the fastball. I would think it would limited to the forearm and elbow, but the human body does some weird things to compensate for change. If the forearm is stressed more, a pitcher might unconscious start changing something that would effect their shoulder.

All that said, I think he probably got unlucky. Either his natural delivery screwed him up or he lost the labrum lottery (relatively since he has survived this long to be a major league pitcher).

I was speculating that it was possible that Pineda was decelerating his arm thus putting stress on the shoulder. As I said much earlier in this thread, he does bear a resemblance in mechanics to Jose Contreras who uses a classic forkball as his change.

[LondonSox]

Cashman calls the Pineda trade a "massive decision gone wrong right now. All scrutiny is fair."

http://espn.go.com/n...sion-gone-wrong

Errr did he really say
"Right now, our hopes and dreams for this player are in jeopardy," Cashman said of Pineda. "Hopefully, someday, our fans will get to see what we expected to see from him for many years to come."

Isn't this Jeter's pick up line??

[jon abbey]

Yes, look at post #210.

[terrynever]

Sweeny Murti with a Pineda Q&A:

http://bleacherrepor...ew-york-yankees

[jon abbey]

"Via Bryan Hoch and Chad Jennings, doctors have told right-hander Michael Pineda that he can begin throwing in mid-September after having surgery to repair a tear in his labrum on May 1st. “The doctors say everything is great right now, so I’m continuing this plan,” said Pineda, who was at Yankee Stadium today after going for a checkup on the shoulder. “Now I’m just starting working on my exercises. I go to physical therapy every day. No throwing right now … Everything is great. I’m feeling great right now. I’m feeling much better.”"

http://riveraveblues...eptember-70560/

[jon abbey]

"During a conference call this afternoon, Brian Cashman confirmed rehabbing right-hander Michael Pineda showed mid-90s velocity during an Extended Spring Training game today. “He pitched at 93 and was up to 95,” said the GM. “A good physical day.”"

 

http://riveraveblues...g-outing-86051/

[terrynever]

"During a conference call this afternoon, Brian Cashman confirmed rehabbing right-hander Michael Pineda showed mid-90s velocity during an Extended Spring Training game today. “He pitched at 93 and was up to 95,” said the GM. “A good physical day.”"

 

http://riveraveblues...g-outing-86051/

That is great news. Yanks are going to be an interesting second-half team this year.

[LondonSox]

The yanks have a different team in the second half. The way they are hanging in must be genuine delight for management.

I have no idea how they do it but injuries don't seem to matter. I wouldn't bet on their best players being good for a yar but they don't need them to be. If they had bad starts or just played to their 3 year averages they would still be ahead of the jays lol