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Let's talk about Michael Pineda


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#101 rembrat


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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

So where are all the Red Sox fans concern about Beckett? He hasnt even hit 95 yet and has been sitting 88-91.

#102 Sampo Gida

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:50 PM

So where are all the Red Sox fans concern about Beckett? He hasnt even hit 95 yet and has been sitting 88-91.


Becketts been 92-93 the past couple of years, and when his FB dropped from 95 to this level in 2010 there was a lot of concern.

That said, we did not just trade our top prospect/DH for him. However, we would probably be a bit more concerned if not for the fact he has a 1.00 ERA, 0.56 WHIP in 3 starts and shown he does not need a 95 mph to win.

#103 rembrat


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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:08 PM

Um, no. Josh has been pretty consistent with his FBv since he got to the big leagues. He does not sit 92-93 in the regular season.

But like I said. A lot of these guys dont have their arm strength yet. Halladay is going through it now. All this Pineda velo talk is wishful thinking until something concrete comes out.

#104 BrazilianSoxFan

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:22 PM

Um, no. Josh has been pretty consistent with his FBv since he got to the big leagues. He does not sit 92-93 in the regular season.


http://www.fangraphs...tion=P&pitch=FA

To my naked eye, he averaged between 92 and 94, but only topped 95 in three starts. His chart seems much more compact, with fewer starts with 95+, but also fewer 91-.

http://www.fangraphs...=510&position=P

His fastball has steadily declined, from 94.4 in 2007 to 93 in 2011. His change up actually sped up during this same time frame, from 84.9 to 88.5.

Edited by BrazilianSoxFan, 15 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.


#105 Sampo Gida

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:19 AM

Um, no. Josh has been pretty consistent with his FBv since he got to the big leagues. He does not sit 92-93 in the regular season.

But like I said. A lot of these guys dont have their arm strength yet. Halladay is going through it now. All this Pineda velo talk is wishful thinking until something concrete comes out.


Thats not true./ You can read this thread to refresh your memory.

http://sonsofsamhorn...what-to-expect/

Also, the links provided by BrazilianSoxFan.

He had some labrum issues with the Marlins which explains the lower velocity earlier in his career, and velocity increases up to age 28-29 after which it begins to decline. You expect to see a drop off in velo for older pitchers.

Pineda is 22, he should not be experiencing a drop off in velocity. His velo tapered off in the 2nd half last year, and hit a low in his final start. That's where he is now. Last year in ST he threw 94-95 his first start.

Now maybe it's nothing, I agree this is not the time to be worrried, but a little concern is warranted.

#106 chris719

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

I am not a doctor, but I think more often than not, a loss of velocity indicates shoulder issues, whether it resolves itself or not. Hughes just had "low arm strength" and "dead arm" last year which improved after a cortisone injection, suggesting it was the result of inflammation.

The fact that Pineda ended up increasing velocity later in games is a troubling sign unless he truly was trying to hold back. I know he said he was, but no one else really does this much other than Verlander.

#107 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:26 PM

Talk is that with the signing of Pettit that the MFY will have Pineda spend some time at AAA

at least according to Sweeney Murdi WFAN

#108 crow216


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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:43 PM

Talk is that with the signing of Pettit that the MFY will have Pineda spend some time at AAA

at least according to Sweeney Murdi WFAN


That doesn't seem to make too much sense. Pettitte won't be ready on April 6th unless he's already done some working out and pitching.

#109 kneemoe

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:48 PM

service time shenanigans I would suspect?

#110 SoxScout


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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

Cashman said Pettitte won't be breaking with the club, I also suspect a major players union shitstorm of fire if they try to send Pineda to the minors.

#111 crow216


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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:25 AM

Cashman on ESPN radio 1050 right now talking about Pineda and being very frank.

"He showed up 20lbs heavier than he was 1 year ago"

"My gut feeling is that he didn't do any work in the winter. He probably didn't pick up a baseball."

"He had a spectacular year last year and it just seems like he's getting in shape and hitters are getting really good swings off of him."

Edit: I gave it a listen again and I was wrong. Cashman said they were getting really poor swings off of him and that we have a good pitcher right now. My fault for the misquote!

Edited by crow216, 18 March 2012 - 08:16 PM.


#112 Doctor G

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:58 AM

Cashman on ESPN radio 1050 right now talking about Pineda and being very frank.

"He showed up 20lbs heavier than he was 1 year ago"

"My gut feeling is that he didn't do any work in the winter. He probably didn't pick up a baseball."

"He had a spectacular year last year and it just seems like he's getting in shape and hitters are getting really good swings off of him."

Pineda made his last two starts last year on 9- 10 and 9-21. His velocity dropped about 4MPH between these starts.. it is possible that he was injured in the 9-10 start. the 9-21 start might have been a way to see how he bounced back with ten days rest. This would be the logical way to figure out his off season regimen.
This is admittedly conjecture on my part.
It would be cause for concern if he really didn't throw all winter.

Edited by Doctor G, 18 March 2012 - 09:59 AM.


#113 jon abbey


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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:28 AM

Seattle started trying to keep his innings down in early July, he only made one start after that on the normal four days rest.

#114 Sampo Gida

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:25 PM

Interesting article here by Dave Cameron

http://www.fangraphs...michael-pineda/

There probably hasn’t been a bigger story in any camp this spring than Michael Pineda‘s missing velocity. After throwing 94-97 in Seattle last year, he’s been 89-93 so far this spring, though he did pump a few 94 MPH fastballs in his most recent start on Tuesday. While it’s still important to realize that this reduced velocity isn’t entirely new, you also would have expected Pineda to throw harder by now if he was physically able to do it at this point......

My suggestion – follow the Madison Bumgarner model and have him begin the season in Triple-A.

.....Not every pitcher who has mysteriously lost their top end fastball has had to live without it forever. If Pineda is not compensating for an injury (and at this point, there haven’t been any indications that he is), there is a real chance that his velocity could return. However, it may behoove the Yankees to let him get his fastball back in the minors, at least to begin the season.



#115 jon abbey


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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:45 PM

Cashman addressed that this afternoon via Jack Curry:

"When Cashman was asked about Pineda starting season at Triple A, he said, "I havent thought about it.""

I could see it if his first 4-5 starts don't go well and Pettitte is ready, maybe, but Garcia isn't bumping him out to start the season.

I think if all stay healthy, Nova/Pineda/Hughes will basically be competing for two spots over the first month or so of the season. The AAA rotation is full currently also (Phelps/Warren/Mitchell/Banuelos/Betances), maybe Mitchell could be moved for a AA/AAA OF of comparable worth.

#116 Sampo Gida

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:58 PM

From Lahuds game update

Pineda’s fastball is sitting at 91 mph and he just allowed an RBI triple to tie the game in the third inning. The Yankees keep saying they’re not worried about Pineda’s velocity, but it’s getting late into spring training and it really hasn’t taken a significant leap to where it was last season.


He struggled the first 3 innings and was helped out by a runner thrown out at the plate, a double play and a lineout. Finished strong for the final 2, but against the Tigers B lineup.

#117 Sampo Gida

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:40 PM

With what was probably Pinedas last start of ST, he leaves the game throwing a 89 MPH FB (started the game at 91-92) with poor command throughout, giving up 6 runs in 2 2/3 IP against a weak hitting Phillies team.

It's only 1 game, but the velocity drop has to be a concern now. Like Cameron suggested in the link above, this does not necessarily mean a shoulder problem , but is something that probably can be reversed if healthy. Best he recover his FB in Triple A than in YS3 against good hitting teams.

#118 soxhop411


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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

RT @BryanHoch: Michael Pineda says he is feeling soreness behind his right shoulder. Told #Yanks about it after exiting game.

UH oh.... Thats really not a good sign


Sweeny Murti @YankeesWFAN

Pineda said his arm was sore tonight, and when asked where exactly, he pointed to back of right shoulder.

Edited by soxhop411, 30 March 2012 - 08:39 PM.


#119 Sampo Gida

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:35 PM

YES reporting now that Pineda says he experienced shoulder soreness before the game and did not tell anyone. That may explain the velocity drop during the game, and perhaps even the velo drop this spring.

#120 rembrat


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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

You hope its a dead arm but, and I could be wrong, aren't dead arms usually free of pain and soreness?

#121 teddywingman


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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:03 PM

You hope its a dead arm but, and I could be wrong, aren't dead arms usually free of pain and soreness?


I think that's right. While the general 'offness' is usually described as being in the center of the shoulder.

To describe the soreness as being behind the shoulder seems a little unusual for most pitching injuries, and would seem to indicate something muscular.

#122 Sampo Gida

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:03 PM

You hope its a dead arm but, and I could be wrong, aren't dead arms usually free of pain and soreness?


Dead arms are sometimes due SLAP (labrum) lesions. Depending on how severe it is, rest and rehab can restore strength. If that does not work, surgery may be needed.

There are other explanations for dead arm, most not as serious. Most pitchers have a short period of dead arm in ST or during the season. Given the pain, SLAP lesion has to be ruled out. Girardi said Pineda going for tests tommorow, which I imagine would include an MRI,

Edited by Sampo Gida, 30 March 2012 - 09:04 PM.


#123 Doctor G

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:04 PM

RT @BryanHoch: Michael Pineda says he is feeling soreness behind his right shoulder. Told #Yanks about it after exiting game.

UH oh.... Thats really not a good sign


Sweeny Murti @YankeesWFAN
Pineda said his arm was sore tonight, and when asked where exactly, he pointed to back of right shoulder.

I was surprised Girardi and Rothchild left him in so long. It looked like he was experiencing discomfort in his shoulder throughout his final inning. he was wincing and repeatedly extending his arms over his head, plus pushing the shoulder forward.

#124 Sampo Gida

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:17 PM

I was surprised Girardi and Rothchild left him in so long. It looked like he was experiencing discomfort in his shoulder throughout his final inning. he was wincing and repeatedly extending his arms over his head, plus pushing the shoulder forward.


From the lahud blog comments in their game thread it seems he has been doing that for a few games now. Most thought it was just a habit of his he may have had with the Mariners, but it did look pretty noticeable in the 3rd, and coupled with his velocity drop to 89 in the 3rd, he might have been able to have been pulled earlier.

That said, some folks will say this is an injury caused by Pineda trying to increase velocity in response to concern expressed about the low velocity, but ignore the fact his shoulder bothered him before the game, and the fact there has been no satisfactory explanation for the velocity drop this ST.

If it was a slap lesion responsible for the low velocity, he probably should have been shut down earlier in ST and put on a rest/rehab strengthening program.
Maybe it's not a serious as feared, like Robertsons foot and Jobas ankle, so have to wait and see what comes out.

Does kind of prove the old adage of never having too much pitching.

#125 jon abbey


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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:27 PM

FWIW, the RAB guys don't seem too concerned:

http://riveraveblues...shoulder-66158/

If Pineda spends 20 or more days in the minors, NY gets an extra year of control at the end of his deal (if he is injured, rehab starts wouldn't count).

#126 EvilEmpire

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:51 PM

FWIW, the RAB guys don't seem too concerned:

http://riveraveblues...shoulder-66158/

If Pineda spends 20 or more days in the minors, NY gets an extra year of control at the end of his deal (if he is injured, rehab starts wouldn't count).


Hope it isn't serious, but damn, bring on the minors for three weeks or so!

#127 terrynever


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:32 AM

Funny how rotation logjams seem to always work themselves out. Pineda's sore shoulder is the perfect excuse for keeping him in Tampa. Now the rotation to start the season is set. CC, Kuroda, Hughes, Nova and Freddy. One month of competition in April before Pettitte is ready. Who knows when Pineda will be ready? Young pitchers are high-risk investments.

#128 Crazy Puppy

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

Funny how rotation logjams seem to always work themselves out. Pineda's sore shoulder is the perfect excuse for keeping him in Tampa. Now the rotation to start the season is set.


Exactly. This is great news for the Yankees. Their prized offseason pitching acquisition -- a 23-year-old potential ace for whom they traded the best hitting prospect in the game -- has pitched his way into the minor leagues with a combination of crappy results, diminished velocity and a sore shoulder. And now the Yankees don't have to worry about what to do with Freddy Garcia. How could this have worked out any better?

Edited by Crazy Puppy, 31 March 2012 - 08:46 AM.


#129 TheGoldenGreek33

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:14 AM

Exactly. This is great news for the Yankees. Their prized offseason pitching acquisition -- a 23-year-old potential ace for whom they traded the best hitting prospect in the game -- has pitched his way into the minor leagues with a combination of crappy results, diminished velocity and a sore shoulder. And now the Yankees don't have to worry about what to do with Freddy Garcia. How could this have worked out any better?

Pineda showed up to camp 20 lbs heavier than he was last season and his diminishing velo is just a continuing trend from the end of last season. I know for a fact Brian Cashman does not consider this to be great news.

#130 jon abbey


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:16 AM

his diminishing velo is just a continuing trend from the end of last season.


This part isn't true, as has been discussed previously. It's certainly not good news, we'll see later today or maybe tomorrow exactly how bad it is.

#131 SoxScout


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:17 AM

Daniel Barbarisi
Pineda to dl with right shoulder tendonitis



Phew

#132 terrynever


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

Exactly. This is great news for the Yankees. Their prized offseason pitching acquisition -- a 23-year-old potential ace for whom they traded the best hitting prospect in the game -- has pitched his way into the minor leagues with a combination of crappy results, diminished velocity and a sore shoulder. And now the Yankees don't have to worry about what to do with Freddy Garcia. How could this have worked out any better?

I don't think the pennant is going to be won or lost in April. The obvious downside is if Pineda is damaged goods. We won't know the extent of his "injury" for awhile. If you read the newspaper reports from last night, the kid sounded very fragile emotionally and may have offered up his sore shoulder as an excuse. Girardi said it was the first time Pineda said he was sore, and they had been asking him all month if he had any physical problems.

Pineda might be ready to help the Yankees in a month. Or maybe he struggles the way Hughes did last year. This is all part of the battle when you develop young pitchers. Freddy is insurance. So is Pettitte. But what Yankee fans like myself have to appreciate is the team is making a commitment to its young pitching prospects, and that's a rollercoaster ride compared to just going out and buying veteran pitchers.

#133 jon abbey


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:27 AM

Not a promising start to Pineda's Yankee tenure, but great that it's just tendinitis, and the silver lining is they won't have to worry about any innings limits later on in the season with him.

#134 jon abbey


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

Buster Olney@Buster_ESPN

Michael Pineda: Mild inflammation... He'll be shut down for 10 to 15 days.

#135 Sampo Gida

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:46 PM

Last year we heard during an ESPN game that Hughes had surgery to remove a shoulder cyst (Pedro Gomez reported it), so not sure how reliable the Yankees are in reporting on pitchers health.

Also,straight MRI's frequently miss rotator cuff injuries and labrum tears. Remember Matt Clement?. MRI was clean, they did the surgery anyways since he was not getting any better, and found a rotator cuff tear and 2 labrum tears. If they did an MRI arthrogram, then maybe the tendonitis is the only thing wrong, but arthrograms have some side effects so teams may be reluctant to order them right away.

Small tears might be treated with rest and rehab, so calling it tendonitis is fine since thats about how it would be treated.

#136 jon abbey


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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:36 PM

He did have a full examination in January for the trade, FWIW.

#137 Sampo Gida

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:19 PM

Like I said, even if they did a straight MRI, its' not conclusive since they don't pick up all small labrum/rotator cuff tears.

#138 Shaky

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:41 PM

Like I said, even if they did a straight MRI, its' not conclusive since they don't pick up all small labrum/rotator cuff tears.


So should we work off the assumption that anyone with shoulder pain has a torn labrum? What are you saying?

#139 derekson

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 07:15 PM

When it's accompanied by noticeable loss in fastball velocity, it's probably not a bad assumption.

All torn labrums are not the same. Minor tears can heal with rest/rehab. And realistically, anyone who throws a ball thousands of times at 90+ MPH is going to have shoulder damage, it's really a matter of it being healthy enough. I doubt many MLB pitchers have a truly healthy labrum in their throwing shoulders. Throwing a ball with an overhand motion is just unnatural for the human body.

Edited by derekson, 02 April 2012 - 07:19 PM.


#140 Sampo Gida

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

So should we work off the assumption that anyone with shoulder pain has a torn labrum? What are you saying?


The significant finding is drop in velocity or weakness (in Pinedas case, they may not have a baseline in shoulder strength tests to compare, but the velociy baseline is well established). Pain may or may not be present. MRI's don't find all torn labrum/rotator cuffs that may be reponsible for velocity loss and/or pain. Paradoxically, MRI's may find partially torn labrums/rotator cuffs that are asymptomatic and the pitcher is throwing at peak velocity and effectiveness with no loss of strength. In fact, Dr Andrews has cautioned on the over-reliance of using MRI's alone to determine if surgery or other significant treatment is needed based on a positive finding.

I guess what I am saying is it is not that cut and dried. As long as you have velocity drop with or without pain. you need to worry, notwithstanding a negative MRI result.

Its estimated that 57% of all pitchers have a shoulder injury during a given season,so obviously, not all of them need surgery, at least not that season. It's something many pitchers pitch through, although some need a lengthy DL trip for rest and rehab, and if that does not work, then surgery is considered

http://www.uhasselt....el Rad-2008.pdf

#141 EvilEmpire

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:51 PM

Small update on Pineda from LoHud:

Michael Pineda played catch again today, and he’ll do long toss tomorrow. When the Yankees leave for Baltimore, Pineda will stay behind to continue his rehab work in Tampa.
“I think if he wouldn’t have been able to play catch we wouldn’t have been too excited,” Joe Girardi said. “But he was able to play catch today and he felt pretty good. … I think it’s too early to tell. I think it’s too early until you see him get off the mound and see how he’s feeling and really draw up a plan. How many rehab starts do you think he needs? A lot of it is, how long does it take him to get off a mound?”
Girardi said getting Pineda off a mound next week might be rushing it, and he expects Pineda to miss all of April, but he seems to think early May is reasonable. Girardi also acknowledged that this DL stint might go a little longer than simply getting rid of the tendinitis, the Yankees might also use this to build some additional arm strength to make sure Pineda is truly 100 percent.



#142 jon abbey


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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:45 PM

Here's a big piece of the puzzle as to why Pineda struggled this spring, now it makes a lot more sense to me:

"A wrinkle in the Michael Pineda Saga: Turns out that Pineda was slated to arrive at M's camp Jan. 22 to work out early, just as he did before his great rookie year. Then Pineda got traded, and there was a 10-day lag before it became official. Ultimately, Pineda didn't arrive in Tampa until Feb. 14, still early, but not as planned. Impossible to know if extra 3 weeks of work would have made difference. But Pineda knows this much: “Next year, I'm coming early. I'm doing my plan.”"

http://www.sulia.com...7-386bb7df7168/

#143 Sampo Gida

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:35 PM

Does not explain his velocity drop IMO. You can still throw a baseball, run and go to the gym even if you are not physically present in one ST camp or the other. Even if, for lack of discipline, he did not do that, he still had 6 weeks before the regular season to get ready, yet his FB did not reach the velo he had in his 1st ST start last year.

#144 jon abbey


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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:37 PM

Pineda is throwing a bullpen tomorrow, and Andrew Marchand says he "is going to throw in a minor league game, probably by next weekend".

#145 SoxScout


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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

Well that suckssss

Joelsherman1: Pineda IP in extend spring, still felt some shoulder weakness, shut down, #Yankees will determine next few days how to proceed

Manager Joe Girardi described Pineda's injury as ''not good,'' and ''somewhat significant.''


Edited by SoxScout, 21 April 2012 - 01:33 PM.


#146 Sampo Gida

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:57 PM

Pineda going for a contrast dye MRI on Monday. The last MRI he had was probably a straight MRI which can miss SLAP tears. Contrast dye MRI will catch them 90% of the time. Normally not done unless your suspicion level is high, and this latest setback has probably raised the alarm levels that it is more than tendinitis

http://yankees.lhblo...-winning-games/

#147 Saby

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:46 AM

Emailed Cashman about Pineda's setback. Response: "Of course I am concerned - don't have an answer." #Yankees

http://mlb.sbnation....spring-training


More and more, I get the suspicion that the Mariners pulled a fast one on the Yankees in the offseason.

#148 terrynever


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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:59 AM

More and more, I get the suspicion that the Mariners pulled a fast one on the Yankees in the offseason.

Yanks gave Pineda a complete physical before the trade was finalized and he passed. If the Mariners suspected something last summer, they had no medical tests to confirm their suspicions. Still, it does look pretty shrewd on their part.

It amazes me in this day and age how many young pitchers end up with shoulder/elbow issues even while closely monitored from the time they are signed. I think Ian Kennedy is the only recent starting pitcher developed by the Yankees who hasn't had a problem. Kennedy had a smooth windup and delivery, similar to Mike Mussina's form. Joba had a violent delivery. Pineda was pushing 280 pounds behind the baseball this spring. The Yankees' early and unproven theory is he may have injured himself while overthrowing as he attempted to increase his velocity in late March.

Either way, it's not good for the Yankees' hopes in 2012. But the bright side is, Jose Campos is dominating hitters in the SALLY league. He might advance to AA ball this season.

Edited by terrynever, 23 April 2012 - 09:07 AM.


#149 terrynever


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Posted 23 April 2012 - 03:57 PM

Pineda test pushed back to tomorrow, according to star ledger beat writer marc carig:

@MarcCarig any updates on Pineda?” / tests pushed back to tomorrow. scheduling conflict.

Edited by terrynever, 23 April 2012 - 03:57 PM.


#150 Sampo Gida

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:22 AM

Yanks gave Pineda a complete physical before the trade was finalized and he passed. If the Mariners suspected something last summer, they had no medical tests to confirm their suspicions. Still, it does look pretty shrewd on their part.

It amazes me in this day and age how many young pitchers end up with shoulder/elbow issues even while closely monitored from the time they are signed. I think Ian Kennedy is the only recent starting pitcher developed by the Yankees who hasn't had a problem. Kennedy had a smooth windup and delivery, similar to Mike Mussina's form. Joba had a violent delivery. Pineda was pushing 280 pounds behind the baseball this spring. The Yankees' early and unproven theory is he may have injured himself while overthrowing as he attempted to increase his velocity in late March.

Either way, it's not good for the Yankees' hopes in 2012. But the bright side is, Jose Campos is dominating hitters in the SALLY league. He might advance to AA ball this season.


That theory ignores that Pineda claimed he experienced shoulder discomfort before his last game of ST, and previously had made no noticeable effort to increase his velocity, and also ignores the most important symptom of potential arm injury, which is unexplained loss of velocity, which was noticed in the 2nd half of last year.

You don't need a positive MRI to suspect arm problems, and a clean MRI does not rule out arm problems, nor does the absence of pain in the examining room,.




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