152 replies to this topic

[PaSox]

Well, good luck to him. I think Penn State was understandably a little desperate and didn't have a lot of options left, and he'll be in a tough spot, as I'm sure Penn State fans are unhappy. Hope he withstands all of it and does well.
[/quote]

Penn State fans were hoping for a big name and being relatively close to the State College, the fans I have spoken with aren't overly happy but are willing to give him a chance. It was not like PSU could have named anybody on staff as the head coach to begin with.

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

McDaniels may want to rehab his name and image.

True, but if he takes over and the team does well, aren't people just going to say, "Big deal. It's obviously about Belichick and Brady. Weis and McDaniels both flopped on their own." Whereas if he can get a job with another team and get the O to play well, he'd get the credit. Obviously that didn't go well in St Louis but that team was limited on talent to begin with and was decimated with injuries throughout the season.

[Mystic Merlin]

I think mascho/SuperNomario could be right, because, let's be honest, McDaniels needs a big rebound, and he might not have the luxury of choosing a place he can distinguish himself easily.

[mascho]

I think mascho/SuperNomario could be right, because, let's be honest, McDaniels needs a big rebound, and he might not have the luxury of choosing a place he can distinguish himself easily.

Or you and BannedbyNYY could be right, and returning to the Patriots would just spur some "system," "he rides Brady's coattails," "blueprint!!!" style views about him. Could go either way, I guess.

[Salva135]

All of this talk about if the Pats are the best option for these potential OCs, but what option is best for the Pats?

[Mystic Merlin]

All of this talk about if the Pats are the best option for these potential OCs, but what option is best for the Pats?

I think McDaniels, unquestionably. We know he can do the job.

If he isn't a viable option, though, who knows? I - and probably no one else - have no idea who among Brian Ferentz, Chad O'Shea, Ivan Fears, etc., is the best option. We don't have the information with which to make anywhere near even an educated guess.

[EddieYost]

All of this talk about if the Pats are the best option for these potential OCs, but what option is best for the Pats?

Someone internal for OC. They need someone who knows the program and can keep it going.

[SeoulSoxFan]

Or you and BannedbyNYY could be right, and returning to the Patriots would just spur some "system," "he rides Brady's coattails," "blueprint!!!" style views about him. Could go either way, I guess.

I just can't see McDaniels coming back here. Just doesn't fit what Patriots usually do, which is to promote from within.

[PedroKsBambino]

The other way McDaniels could be back is if BB or Kraft thinks he is a reasonably strong candidate to the The Successor, isn't it?

[twibnotes]

Well, good luck to him. I think Penn State was understandably a little desperate and didn't have a lot of options left, and he'll be in a tough spot, as I'm sure Penn State fans are unhappy. Hope he withstands all of it and does well.

I think a lot of PSU fans (I'm engaged to one) are excited to turn the page and bring someone in who doesn't have direct ties to PSU. It's a fresh start.

Interesting that O'Brien, like JoePA, went to Brown

[E5 Yaz]

Didn't BB pass on chances to bring back Weis and Crennel? Why would he bring back McDaniels?

Edited by E5 Yaz, 05 January 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[Super Nomario]

True, but if he takes over and the team does well, aren't people just going to say, "Big deal. It's obviously about Belichick and Brady. Weis and McDaniels both flopped on their own." Whereas if he can get a job with another team and get the O to play well, he'd get the credit. Obviously that didn't go well in St Louis but that team was limited on talent to begin with and was decimated with injuries throughout the season.

McDaniels is young for a coach (just 35), so he could always coach in NE for a couple years and if he can't parlay that into an NFL HC gig, he could get another coordinator gig elsewhere or a college job. I would think it would be better for his reputation to re-succeed in New England than to fail in Kansas City (or somewhere else with middling talent). If he could get a coordinator gig somewhere else with good talent, I agree that would be a better bet.

I think at present he's still under contract with St. Louis, though of course that may change depending on the new coach. This article suggests the Pats and Chiefs have made overtures to discuss an OC position with him.

[Jinhocho]

soooo will he at least finish the season?

Dont see how a guy interviewing and then taking another job in the playoffs is not a huge story here.

[Mystic Merlin]

Dont see how a guy interviewing and then taking another job in the playoffs is not a huge story here.

Because it's not abnormal, and - while the possibility exists that BOB, being human, will give shortshrift to his Patriot-related duties and thereby hurt the team - I have never heard anyone suggest that, say, Romeo Crennel wasn't dialed in when he interviewed for a ton of jobs during the '03 playoffs (and, as we know, he was a hot candidate the following year as well). In fact, I can't recall any media scuttlebutt that any coach of any bye team interviewing for jobs let it affect the performance of their then-current jobs.

They're not playing a game this Sunday, and two of their best offensive players haven't touched the practice field this week. It's a week for rest/recuperation and self-scouting/correction; coaches are obviously working through tape of CIN/PIT/DEN to get a jump, but it's not like they're installing a gameplan and the architect of that gameplan is MIA. This isn't to say that the bye week preparation isn't important, of course; it is, and ideally you'd have BOB present at every meeting and practice. But I'm honestly not sure what is really at risk here, given the nature of bye week prep and the fact BOB is probably someone who can juggle massive amounts of work/responsibilities (you don't get into his position unless you can).

And if you don't buy that argument, then: why do teams let their staff interview during the bye week? Why is this an accepted practice if it's a credible threat to the team's preparation? I have a hard time believing Belichick would acquiesce to the interview request if he thought it posed such a threat to the team.

[Salva135]

I just can't see McDaniels coming back here. Just doesn't fit what Patriots usually do, which is to promote from within.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I would love to see McDaniels back, but figure they will bring up one of the lower guys. I don't get a sense that either way it's a huge concern.

[DrewDawg]

Dont see how a guy interviewing and then taking another job in the playoffs is not a huge story here.

It's not a huge story because according to NFL rules teams on a bye can have their guys interviewed.

And the last time the Pats OC took a college job during a bye week the Pats won the Super Bowl.

[Super Nomario]

I just can't see McDaniels coming back here. Just doesn't fit what Patriots usually do, which is to promote from within.

When have they had an opportunity to re-hire as coordinator a young coach that they hadn't burned any bridges with, at the same time a coordinator opening came available?

[Corsi]

A well-placed league source says both the Patriots and
Chiefs have reached out to the Rams to seek permission to talk to
McDaniels, but no word on if the Rams gave it.

http://www.stltoday....19bb30f31a.html

[Corsi]

Bedard and Manza-Young say they're hearing the same thing.

[Corsi]

going to shut it down, but before I do: from what @GregABedard and I are hearing, don't be surprised if Josh McDaniels returns to NE

http://bit.ly/zg0kpH

[Kid T]

Didn't BB pass on chances to bring back Weis and Crennel? Why would he bring back McDaniels?

Because there were already successors ready to step in when Weis and Crennel were available again. At this point, it doesn't appear that anyone is ready to replace BOB (especially since McDaniels probably left a year or two sooner than BB expected).

[Corsi]

Couple this with news that Brandon Lloyd will try to follow McDaniels wherever he goes.

http://www.stltoday....2665d39a20.html

[Jinhocho]

It's not a huge story because according to NFL rules teams on a bye can have their guys interviewed.

And the last time the Pats OC took a college job during a bye week the Pats won the Super Bowl.

Thats apples and oranges given the experience of Weis compared to that of BoB. This is the guys first year as OC.

[E5 Yaz]

If the game were this weekend, I'd be concerned

If the Pats had an inexperienced quarterback, I'd be concerned

I think they'll get a sense by the start of next week whether he's distracted and adjust accordingly

[FL4WL3SS]

McDaniels is a natural contender to return, but who knows where his head is at - returning to the Pats may not be his best path to a second head coaching gig because he would run the risk - given his short-lived reign as Broncos HC and disastrous tenure as Rams OC - of being pigeonholed as a product of Tom Brady and the Pats' offensive staff. That might not be fair, but perception is both a kingmaker and destroyer in this league.

I doubt Scarnecchia will get the nod. He's probably best-suited to his bread and butter, the OL, and he appears content with that role, seeing as he's been the OL coach (and Assistant HC) since 2000 (and, amazingly, he's been with the Patriots since 1991).

As relative newcomers, Ferentz (TE) and O'Shea (WR) seem like longhshots. Then again, who knew Matt Patricia?

I'd say, of all the prominent in-house options, Ivan Fears (RB) is the best bet to take over - he's been with the team since 1999, and he may have greater ambitions than than older Scarnecchia.

Of course, this is all guesswork - BOB doubled as the QB Coach, so that seemingly natural successor to the job isn't there. I think this is the best argument for McDaniels returning.

I don't really think it will hurt his image to go back to Belichick. If anything, being associated with Belichick and the Patriots has elevated some assistants quicker (probably quicker then they should be). It didn't hurt Belichick to go crawling back to Parcells after the Browns gig. Sometimes, guys just need more seasoning and McDaniels seems like that kind of guy. I really think it's only a matter of time until McDaniels is given another chance at being a head coach and **I think the next team that gives him a shot will be really happy they did. Hell, if Norv Turner can keep his job (and seemingly get an infinate number of chances), I don't see why a team wouldn't take another shot at McDaniels, ESPECIALLY if he returns to NE.

**I could see McDaniels taking over for Belichick at some point, especially if he returns.

[FL4WL3SS]

I think a Crennel (HC) and McDaniels (OC) pairing in KC would be really fucking good. That's an excellent call by Pioli.

[BucketOBalls]

Well, BoB being hired should reduce the distraction factor at least. He's probably extra motivated now. If the Pats get to the SB or even win it...that would be an awesome way to go out, wouldn't it?


I though he did a decent job as OC though, even compared to McDaniels, although that might be a combination of the offence being a bit different now(with the TE's) and a kinda weak schedule this year.

[Super Nomario]

Apparently Weis did this during the '04 season; he had to make some recruiting calls on breaks or duck out for a minute but he was able to perform 99% of his OC duties: http://espn.go.com/b...ing-double-duty

I imagine PSU might want him to be more actively involved, but it's gotta be a great recruiting tool. "Sorry kid, I can only talk for five minutes; I've got a meeting with Tom Brady right after this."

[Van Everyman]

I think a Crennel (HC) and McDaniels (OC) pairing in KC would be really fucking good. That's an excellent call by Pioli.

Of course, if the Chiefs flounder again, that would be a real knock on McDaniels that would be hard to recover from after two unsuccessful stints in Denver and STL. With the Pats, he gets a virtual guarantee that he is coaching a top 3 offense -- one you could argue he built the model for in 2007.

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

If Brady wants Josh back, and I know they had a great relationship in the past, he should really push Belichick and Kraft to make a strong pitch. Bill seems like the type of guy that won't get into a bidding war for a coach and the other day Tom Curran reported that NE has a reputation of underpaying coordinators. Maybe in this case it's worth it for the Pats to make a serious recruiting effort. I'd easily trade O'Brien and Ocho for McDaniels and Lloyd next season.

[pjr]

FromPeter King on Twitter,


SI_PeterKingPeter King





Rams have told Josh McDaniels they won't hold him to his contract. If he wants to leave, they'll let him.

7 minutes ago

[tims4wins]

Changed the thread title to reflect the confirmation of O'Brien's departure, and added a poll for fun

[Carmine Hose]

They need a guy that can keep the Ferrari purring and also develop Mallet as a legitimate successor to Brady or at least a high-demand asset.

[phragle]

Good for BO'B, and I feel it's a net upgrade if we get McDaniels back. Llyod would just be the cherry on top.

[RedOctober3829]

I want Ferentz. Coaches and players gush about how good of a coach he is. He will get the OC-in-waiting job and get the title in a couple years like McD did.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Speculation in the Penn State thread is that O'Brien is likely to clean house in bring in his own slate of assistants. This got me wondering, to what extent would he be likely to or able to poach some of the Pats' coaching staff? I don't recall Weis or McDaniels taking anyone along with them when they departed, but I'm pretty sure that Mangini did and that it was the source of much conflict with Belichik. Any thoughts on what is standard practice in these situations? Might the Pats be looking at having to fill multiple vacancies?

[TheoShmeo]

We know that Weis multi-tasked between the ND job and his Pats OC job and that all worked out swmimmingly. Putting aside whether the PSU mess will make it more challenging for O'Brien to do the same, the National Signing Day is February 1. The Super Bowl is five days later. If the Pats are fortunate enough to make it, that would seem to present a challenge.

Does anyone recall whether the National Signing Day was also several days ahead of the Super Bowl in February, 2005?

[jsinger121]

Speculation in the Penn State thread is that O'Brien is likely to clean house in bring in his own slate of assistants. This got me wondering, to what extent would he be likely to or able to poach some of the Pats' coaching staff? I don't recall Weis or McDaniels taking anyone along with them when they departed, but I'm pretty sure that Mangini did and that it was the source of much conflict with Belichik. Any thoughts on what is standard practice in these situations? Might the Pats be looking at having to fill multiple vacancies?

I'm guessing part of the agreement of going to Penn State is not taking any Patriots assistants with him.

[ethangl]

I'm guessing part of the agreement of going to Penn State is not taking any Patriots assistants with him.

What agreement?

[Super Nomario]

We know that Weis multi-tasked between the ND job and his Pats OC job and that all worked out swmimmingly. Putting aside whether the PSU mess will make it more challenging for O'Brien to do the same, the National Signing Day is February 1. The Super Bowl is five days later. If the Pats are fortunate enough to make it, that would seem to present a challenge.

Does anyone recall whether the National Signing Day was also several days ahead of the Super Bowl in February, 2005?

Yes, looks like National Signing Day was 2/1 or 2/2 and the Super Bowl was 2/6.

[Mystic Merlin]

What agreement?

The agreement where the Patriots gave Penn State permission to speak with O'Brien, and vice versa. They could've easily blocked the entire process.

[jsinger121]

What agreement?

BB likely told him no assistants can go with him to Penn State. You didn't see Weis, Crennel or McDaniel poach coaches when they left. Mangini was the only one and it pissed BB off as he was starting to ask coaches on the Pats staff to come with him on the way back from Denver on the plane after the divisional loss.

[tims4wins]

I want Ferentz. Coaches and players gush about how good of a coach he is. He will get the OC-in-waiting job and get the title in a couple years like McD did.

I don't have a feeling one way or the other on Ferentz, but given how the tight ends have played over the last two years, you'd think we'd have heard his name mentioned more. Dude deserves his due.

[ethangl]

The agreement where the Patriots gave Penn State permission to speak with O'Brien, and vice versa. They could've easily blocked the entire process.

Those requests are professional courtesies, nothing more -- they don't come with strings attached.

[Mystic Merlin]

Those requests are professional courtesies, nothing more -- they don't come with strings attached.

Right, except now if BOB raids the Pats' staff after agreeing not to, it looks pretty bad for him and Penn State, no? I'm sure Penn State would love even more good press like that.

I think you're missing the norms at play here (it is no different than when Minnesota snatched a Pats' practice squad guy - I think Garrett Mills - and the Pats retaliated, so to speak). The fact the agreement isn't enforceable doesn't mean there aren't consequences to reneging.

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 06 January 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[DrewDawg]

Heard some PSU guys saying it's a bad hire--that BOB doesn't "get" PSU.

You know, like Saban gets Bama, Carroll got USC, Kelly gets Oregon...

[Mystic Merlin]

Heard some PSU guys saying it's a bad hire--that BOB doesn't "get" PSU.

You know, like Saban gets Bama, Carroll got USC, Kelly gets Oregon...

They obviously wanted a Penn St. guy or a big splash hire. What they're missing is that the former would be stupid (they need a clean slate, not a guy that they can find a picture of where he's standing next to Sandusky or something), and the latter wasn't possible, for obvious reasons.

[ethangl]

Right, except now if BOB raids the Pats' staff after agreeing not to, it looks pretty bad for him and Penn State, no? I'm sure Penn State would love even more good press like that.

I think you're missing the norms at play here (it is no different than when Minnesota snatched a Pats' practice squad guy - I think Garrett Mills - and the Pats retaliated, so to speak). The fact the agreement isn't enforceable doesn't mean there aren't consequences to reneging.

First, no, it doesn't look bad to anybody but Pats fans, and secondly, in the grand scheme of things there is almost nothing that PSU could do now that could make them any worse.

There are consequences that are purely of a social or personal relationship nature -- I'm sure BOB likes and respects BB and wouldn't want to poach anybody else he felt it was absolutely unnecessary. This is no different than any other profession. Obviously Mangini felt differently, and that he did poach somebody with absolutely no consequences (other than drawing the ire of BB) clearly shows that there's no formal agreements for anything like this because such an agreement is utterly unenforceable.

What is actually being missed here is that it is a big no-no in coaching circles to impede the career of another coach, which is what BB would be doing if he restricted in any way BOB's ability to take this job (or perform to the best of his abilities). BB, of course, knows this and would never prevent one of his assistants from interviewing for a HC job. The "permission" to speak to a coach is only really necessary when said coach is potentially making a lateral move, otherwise it is just being done out of respect, for BB in this case.

BOB is, AFAIK, in the last year of his contract -- coaching contracts expire immediately at the end of the season. What _exactly_ could the Patriots have done to block this, other than delay it, what, two or three weeks? Nothing. And in terms of consequences, there would be actual consequences in coaching circles if the Pats were seen as trying to block this move.

Edited by ethangl, 06 January 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Carmine Hose]

If O'Brien can't take any NEP coaches, I wonder where he looks next. Just as it was hard to find a guy to take the HC job at Diddler State U, he may have a hard time convincing his first, or even, second choices for assistant jobs to go to State College.

[FL4WL3SS]

Why would any assistants leave the Patriots and the NFL to go be an assistant at the college level? It'd be a step back. Even if BOB wanted to poach, I'm not sure he'd have much success.