121 replies to this topic

[Lose Remerswaal]

They probably aren't as good as they looked in the 3rd quarter against the Knicks, and probably aren't as bad as they looked in the 4th quarter last night.

How does this end?

[BellhornIsGod]

I'll say 38-28, the 4 or 5 seed, a first round win and then knocked off in a heated series by a 55-11 Heat team.

Honestly everything is stacked up in favor of the Heat this season. Shorter season where the best athletes have even more of an advantage, adding Battier and Cole to the bench, a pissed off LeBron who despite all his faults is the best basketball player on Earth.

The C's are still a good team, 0-3 start be damned but when your only big men are Jermaine O'Neal and Greg Stiemsma you need to be elite across the board at other positions. The 2007 Celts may have been able to overcome that, not this edition. Age has taken too much.

[jsinger121]

They are not a good team. They have zero size to compete day in and day out and they are going to have too many back to backs that will cost them in the long run. Honestly think the best for them is to trade Allen at the deadline to a contender and try to see if you can move Garnett to a contender and get a high lottery pick. Who are we fooling here? This isn't a contending team and its better to get a head start with the rebuilding while some players still have some trade value.

[Brickowski]

Things are never as bad as they seem or as good as they seem. Having said that, I will point out that their best center right now is Stiemsma, and any team with a couple of competent NBA big men (last night it was Okafor and Kaman) is going to kill them in the paint at both ends.

Danny needs to get on the phone to Joel Przybilla's agent and beg.

[fairlee76]

Per Mannix last night, Przybilla and Dampier are still available. Any thoughts on why the Celtics are not pursuing one of those guys? Either is an improvement over JO.

[Hendu's Gait]

0-66

Smegma starts by game 10 and becomes lone All-Star, and wins DPOY.

[BigSoxFan]

36-30. This Celtics team is exceedingly mediocre. They're good enough to hang with many of the good teams but they won't have the talent, youth, depth, etc. to consistently beat them. And they're not able to just roll out of bed and beat bad teams with their "B" or "C" game anymore either. If this team is hovering around .500 after 1-2 months, and Ainge can get some 2012 1st rounders for Ray/KG, he's going to have an interesting decision to make. Personally, I think KG looks cooked.

[nighthob]

They probably aren't as good as they looked in the 3rd quarter against the Knicks, and probably aren't as bad as they looked in the 4th quarter last night.

How does this end?

Badly.

[Mooch]

They are not a good team. They have zero size to compete day in and day out and they are going to have too many back to backs that will cost them in the long run. Honestly think the best for them is to trade Allen at the deadline to a contender and try to see if you can move Garnett to a contender and get a high lottery pick. Who are we fooling here? This isn't a contending team and its better to get a head start with the rebuilding while some players still have some trade value.

How are you going to get a high lottery pick trading Garnett to a contender?

I agree with your larger point: It's time for Danny to blow it all up.

[fairlee76]

How are you going to get a high lottery pick trading Garnett to a contender?

I agree with your larger point: It's time for Danny to blow it all up.

Sounds like he is saying that by moving Ray and KG, the Celtics would suck, miss the playoffs, and thereby secure a high lottery pick based on their own record.

[Witters]

36-38ish wins, a middling playoff seed, a hardfought first-round win, a second-round exit, and the Big Three era ends with a whimper. Depressing, but it COULD be worse and that's how I think this season will go.

[jsinger121]

Sounds like he is saying that by moving Ray and KG, the Celtics would suck, miss the playoffs, and thereby secure a high lottery pick based on their own record.

Yup that's what I meant. They could get other picks from non lottery teams in deals for Allen/KG which they should consider soon.

[Mooch]

Yup that's what I meant. They could get other picks from non lottery teams in deals for Allen/KG which they should consider soon.

OK, gotcha. If that's the strategy, why wait until the deadline? Deal 'em both now and assure yourself of more ping-pong balls. Honestly, Ainge should seriously think about punting this season entirely.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Who can you trade Allen and Garnett to, and for what?

[The Social Chair]

They'd have to buy KG out. Nobody is taking on his salary even for one year.

[nighthob]

They'd have to buy KG out. Nobody is taking on his salary even for one year.

Sure they would. For example, Utah would gladly unload The Big Lazy and Millsap on Boston for Garnett's expiring deal in another month or so.

[SpacemanzGerbil]

Sure they would. For example, Utah would gladly unload The Big Lazy and Millsap on Boston for Garnett's expiring deal in another month or so.

Unfortunately, a trade like that turns Boston into a leper colony in the eyes of free agents for the next decade.

[nighthob]

Unfortunately, a trade like that turns Boston into a leper colony in the eyes of free agents for the next decade.

Yeah, I wasn't advocating it. I was just pointing out that expiring deals can always be dealt for bad contracts. But weren't you advocating for The Big Lazy in another thread?

[SpacemanzGerbil]

Yeah, I wasn't advocating it. I was just pointing out that expiring deals can always be dealt for bad contracts. But weren't you advocating for The Big Lazy in another thread?

Yep. Still, you don't trade a player of Garnett's caliber somewhere he doesn't want to go without consequences. Same goes for Ray, really. You trade either of them, it has to be to contenders, regardless of the value returned.

[nighthob]

That I'll agree with. I don't see Garnett going anywhere for the simple reason that he has more value to Boston on-court than in trade. Ray I can see being dealt, though.

[The Social Chair]

Sure they would. For example, Utah would gladly unload The Big Lazy and Millsap on Boston for Garnett's expiring deal in another month or so.

I thought it was assummed they wouldn't trade KG for a bad contract. It would have to be for another expiring deal (w/ a draft pick) or it won't happen.

Yep. Still, you don't trade a player of Garnett's caliber somewhere he doesn't want to go without consequences. Same goes for Ray, really. You trade either of them, it has to be to contenders, regardless of the value returned.

Another consequence would be Paul Pierce asking to be traded. He's not going to want to spend his last 3 years on a rebuilding team.

Edited by The Social Chair, 29 December 2011 - 03:05 PM.

[BigSoxFan]

If DA chooses to blow it up, Pierce asking to be traded wouldn't be a consequence, it would be beneficial. The objective for any rebuilding process is to bottom out so that you can land a couple top 5-10 picks and have payroll flexibility.

[Mike in CT]

Dump Pavlovich and Bradley, and replace them with them with Pryz and Dampier.

Moore takes Bradley's minutes.

Pierce and Pietrus join the team.

I'll give them 10 games to show something after that.

[Koufax]

The Globe reports today that Danny has taken the education of Avery Bradley on as a personal project. Remember that Danny spent two weeks living with Gerald Green while he was playing in the Developmental League? It's the kiss of death, I say.

Sasha I think has talent. I would not dump him.

[Eddie Jurak]

Questions:

1. Jermaine sure looked good against a crappy Pistons team. Any chance some of that offense is for real?

2. Is Stiemsma a nobody who had his 15 minutes of fame in the New Orleans loss, or a legitimate find off the scrap heap? Mark Blount was a big guy from nowhere who turned out decently. Could Stiemsma be another one?

3. How did Danny manage to acquire Brandon Bass for Big Baby? I liked Baby, but BB looks like a potential 6th man of the year. Have the Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics ever had a bench scorer this good? Or am I overrating him based on a small smaple.

[smastroyin]

Blowing it up and hoping for high draft picks is what kept the Cetics in the purgatory of irrelevance for so long. I hope Danny has a better plan than just trading everyone and hoping for ping pong balls.

[Captaincoop]

Questions:

1. Jermaine sure looked good against a crappy Pistons team. Any chance some of that offense is for real?

2. Is Stiemsma a nobody who had his 15 minutes of fame in the New Orleans loss, or a legitimate find off the scrap heap? Mark Blount was a big guy from nowhere who turned out decently. Could Stiemsma be another one?

3. How did Danny manage to acquire Brandon Bass for Big Baby? I liked Baby, but BB looks like a potential 6th man of the year. Have the Pierce/Garnett/Allen Celtics ever had a bench scorer this good? Or am I overrating him based on a small smaple.

I can kind of understand trading Bass straight up for Baby, just on the basis that Baby is a better team defender and has shown the ability to perform in crunch time of big games. I still think Bass is the better and more consistent player, but there is at least somewhat of an argument if the money and commitment is equal. But the crazy thing is that Orlando made the deal and had to pay Big Baby significantly more money and for 4 years. That makes it a huge ripoff in favor of Ainge.

I like Steimsma, because he's one of the only guys on this roster who plays with some energy. But he is basically Greg Kite. If he's getting minutes, it's because this team is in big trouble at PF/C.

[Brickowski]

IMHO the Celtics' roster is what it is until the trading deadline, and maybe until draft night. No use wishing for this or that.

As for BBD vs Bass, I'd say that BBD is considerably better on the defensive end, especially his post defense. Offensively, Bass is a better jump shooter and free throw shooter, but Davis is a better (and more willing) passer. Rebounding is about even: BBD takes up more space, but Bass is quicker to the ball.

Given the composition of this year's second unit, Bass' consistent shooting is more valuable, because that unit does not have another good scorer. However, it also means that they will have to live with Stiermsma for 15 minutes a game, because Bass and Wilcox have not been able to hold down the paint against teams with decent post players.

Edited by Brickowski, 31 December 2011 - 05:14 PM.

[EL Jeffe]

IMHO the Celtics' roster is what it is until the trading deadline, and maybe until draft night. No use wishing for this or that.

As for BBD vs Bass, I'd say that BBD is considerably better on the defensive end, especially his post defense. Offensively, Bass is a better jump shooter and free throw shooter, but Davis is a better (and more willing) passer. Rebounding is about even: BBD takes up more space, but Bass is quicker to the ball.

Given the composition of this year's second unit, Bass' consistent shooting is more valuable, because that unit does not have another good scorer. However, it also means that they will have to live with Stiermsma for 15 minutes a game, because Bass and Wilcox have not been able to hold down the paint against teams with decent post players.

Bass can actually dunk a basketball. Advantage Bass.

[Brickowski]

Bass can actually dunk a basketball. Advantage Bass.

Trivial advantage. It's the same two points if you use the glass. Havlicek scored over 26,000 points and I never saw him dunk once, not even in warmups.

[EL Jeffe]

Trivial advantage. It's the same two points if you use the glass. Havlicek scored over 26,000 points and I never saw him dunk once, not even in warmups.

It was mostly tongue in cheek, but not 100%. How many times would we see Baby not be able to finish strong in traffic, resulting in blown opportunities? Bass can finish around the rim, and that's a real advantage.

[Brickowski]

It was mostly tongue in cheek, but not 100%. How many times would we see Baby not be able to finish strong in traffic, resulting in blown opportunities? Bass can finish around the rim, and that's a real advantage.

Yes, because Bass has mastered the upfake, BBD really hasn't, although he improved a little last year.

[radsoxfan]

It was mostly tongue in cheek, but not 100%. How many times would we see Baby not be able to finish strong in traffic, resulting in blown opportunities? Bass can finish around the rim, and that's a real advantage.

Exactly. Trouble dunking itself doesn't mean anything, but in his case its a result being undersized and unathletic. That also manifests itself as poor rebounding, shot blocking, and finishing around the basket. And those things matter a lot.

Edited by radsoxfan, 01 January 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Clears Cleaver]

This team is old, not deep and over the cap. There is little to no hope this year. Blowing it up early perhaps becomes the most viable option. Can you get a first rounder for Ray? Take advantage of the small Benefit of amnestying KG?

good luck Danny. Basically his job is to try and recruit a max FA to play with Rondo and find cheap rotation players

[BigSoxFan]

This team is old, not deep and over the cap. There is little to no hope this year. Blowing it up early perhaps becomes the most viable option. Can you get a first rounder for Ray? Take advantage of the small Benefit of amnestying KG?

good luck Danny. Basically his job is to try and recruit a max FA to play with Rondo and find cheap rotation players

I bet we could get a late first for Ray but what would that do? Ownership also needs to sell tickets so Ainge is going to be in between a rock and a hard place. And you can't just trade 1 of the Big 3 , you need to trade ALL of them so that you are bad enough to land a top 5-10 pick to add to Rondo and whatever value you could get for aging superstars.

[Nick Kaufman]

Very pessimistic after today.

Exposed by a team with a better frontcourt and deeper bench while Pierce seems like a barometer so far. I am thinking we finish 4th or 5th in Eastern Conference a 0.550 team or something.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Very pessimistic after today.

Exposed by a team with a better frontcourt and deeper bench while Pierce seems like a barometer so far. I am thinking we finish 4th or 5th in Eastern Conference a 0.550 team or something.

They can win plenty of games when KG and Pierce have their legs under them (Ray is a freak and always has his legs under him it seems), but the team's upside, as you suggest, is so limited that it doesn't feel like it's worth it to continue with this roster. Everything could go absolutely perfect for this team and it still wouldn't be good enough. Of course, it's not going to go perfect. JO probably won't be there in the end or will be something like 50% or worse, leaving us with an awful rotation of bigs. KG already looks invisible half the time; I shudder to think about a few months from now.

Edited by Jed Zeppelin, 06 January 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[taoofoj]

The Cs are clearly heading toward mediocrity but are still a 3-5 seed and have 3 HOFers and Rondo. Getting Pietrus will help. With this condensed season a team's fortunes can change rapidly with injuries, etc. Danny is and should continue to explore trades to acquire young talent. But with the $$ off the books after this year he need not be hasty. Worst comes to worst they play out the string and it's a kinda meh season but maybe they get hot in the playoffs and make a nice run.

[radsoxfan]

I continue to doubt getting anything of much value for KG/Ray rentals. And other than those 2, who has trade value? Rondo of course, but he is young with a good contract, so he can be a part of the rebuilding process just as easily as someone new.

As pathetic as last night was, I still don't see a major move being made at this point. Wouldn't shock me to see a 5-6 seed and a 1st round exit though.

[Clears Cleaver]

Ray has value. How many two guards are better than him right now? I'm sure the Clippers would love to have him. Or the Thunder. Is his expiring contract worth more to a rebuilding effort than what they might get for him?

[Brickowski]

Ray has value. How many two guards are better than him right now? I'm sure the Clippers would love to have him. Or the Thunder. Is his expiring contract worth more to a rebuilding effort than what they might get for him?

Ray definitely has value. But if they trade him at the deadline, I'd be worried that they would have an unmotivated Garnett for the rest of the season. Unless something really good comes along, IMHO Ainge should wait until June and see what he can do with capspace and two first round picks.

[dolomite133]

Ray definitely has value. But if they trade him at the deadline, I'd be worried that they would have an unmotivated Garnett for the rest of the season. Unless something really good comes along, IMHO Ainge should wait until June and see what he can do with capspace and two first round picks.

Since the trade would be for the future, it really doesn't matter what KG does or how he plays the rest of the season.

[Brickowski]

Since the trade would be for the future, it really doesn't matter what KG does or how he plays the rest of the season.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on who they trade for. If it's a young big man, you'd like Garnett to mentor that player. KG may be slowing down, but he still knows how to play.

[dolomite133]

I'm still thinking Ray for Batum would be a good deal for both the Blazers and the Celtics. I'm also still thinking Evan Turner would be available if we can organize a three way trade to get them something. Would they consider KG's expiring deal for Brand and Turner simply to get cap space? Wait, this is the wrong thread for far-fetched rebuilding ideas. Never mind.

[Kutcher Era Youth]

If they do come to the conclusion in the coming weeks that this team is cooked, maybe they could get Chicago's pick and their rights to CHA's pick? Then I'd have the medical staff reexamine Pierce's heel and come to the conclusion that he should rest it. That should make them about bad enough to barely miss the playoffs.



Edit: Just to clarify, the CHI trade would be for Ray of course.

Edited by Kutcher Era Youth, 08 January 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I'm still thinking Ray for Batum would be a good deal for both the Blazers and the Celtics. I'm also still thinking Evan Turner would be available if we can organize a three way trade to get them something. Would they consider KG's expiring deal for Brand and Turner simply to get cap space? Wait, this is the wrong thread for far-fetched rebuilding ideas. Never mind.

The Sixers are currently in first place, with the league's best point differential and are second in the league in offensive efficiency and fourth in the league in defensive efficiency. I'm not so sure they're particularly eager to blow up their young core for an expiring deal. And on top of that, how often do teams give up on the second overall pick halfway through his second season? Particularly when the player in question hasn't even been bad. Evan Turner may not be setting the league on fire, but he's a top 10 shooting guard in efficiency, leads all shooting guards in rebounding rate, and is sixth in win shares. Given the make up of their team, his efficiency is a very valuable commodity, as they need him to be effective without using too large a percentage of their possessions.

And the Blazers are currently playing as well as any team in the league, and they're doing so by playing at a very fast pace (5th in the league). I don't see how a 36 year old SG who needs to run off of 3 screens per possession to get open in half court sets fits what they do at all. Batum's defensive value, and the depth he gives them on the wing is more valuable to them. He's also 8 million dollars cheaper than Allen, and doesn't play a position that Portland has 11 million dollars committed to in Matthews and Crawford.

[BigSoxFan]

Yes, expecting a young player with potential for Allen is a pipe dream. Realistically, a first round pick in the 20-30 range is about the best we can hope for, if Ainge goes that route. However, I don't think he'll do that because of pressure from ownership to keep the team viable at a time when the Bruins are really starting to get a lot of the casual fan interest.

[dolomite133]

Yes, expecting a young player with potential for Allen is a pipe dream. Realistically, a first round pick in the 20-30 range is about the best we can hope for, if Ainge goes that route. However, I don't think he'll do that because of pressure from ownership to keep the team viable at a time when the Bruins are really starting to get a lot of the casual fan interest.

I disagree. Phoenix got Joe Johnson for Delk and Rogers. I think we could get the same return on Ray. It's all about taking advantage of a contending team's needs.

And agree that Turner and Batum are on good teams. However, good as those teams are, they aren't title contenders yet. These are teams that still need to make moves to get to the next level (especially Philly). If a three way deal sends Ray to a contender, lands the 76ers a PF (the heir to Brand, who turns 33 this year, and would be good amnesty bait) and lands us Turner, it could be a win-win-win.

Edited by dolomite133, 09 January 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I disagree. Phoenix got Joe Johnson for Delk and Rogers. I think we could get the same return on Ray. It's all about taking advantage of a contending team's needs.

And agree that Turner and Batum are on good teams. However, good as those teams are, they aren't title contenders yet. These are teams that still need to make moves to get to the next level (especially Philly). If a three way deal sends Ray to a contender, lands the 76ers a PF (the heir to Brand, who turns 33 this year, and would be good amnesty bait) and lands us Turner, it could be a win-win-win.

I agree with this, however, you need to actually provide an example of A) a contending team who needs Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett and B) a deal that makes sense and works within the salary cap. Saying simply that Philadelphia would deal Turner for an heir to Brand at PF doesn't magically make that PF exist, let alone exist on a team that needs Ray Allen for the next couple of months.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I was under the impression that you can only amnesty a guy that you signed, meaning the C's could not acquire and then amnesty Brand.

Does Allen make Portland or Philly contenders, or significantly increase their chances? I don't think so.

C's will blow it up by letting the "big three" go when their contracts expire. bumping this thread every time they lose and saying the same things (they gotta do something!!!!!!) isn't going to change the C's reality.