277 replies to this topic

[Sprowl]

What is the worst offseason ever? I nominate 2011.

I'll admit, losing Fisk, Lynn and Burleson because of sheer incompetence in 1980 is very hard to top -- but that was decades ago, and I apply a 2% discount rate for each passing year. And of course, best and worst offseasons are not always the best predictors of the actual seasons that follow them. Last year's best offseason ever doesn't look so good in light of the worst September collapse ever.

Nevertheless, this offseason sux. None of the new acquisitions provide reassurance that the Red Sox have acquired the talent or brains to do better in 2012. Ben Cherington strikes me as a little bit simple-minded and in love with grit, visible effort, and baseball clichés. Bobby Valentine is an indiscreet loudmouth in love with the sound of his own voice. Bob McClure drips with low-budget baseball zen. When Theo Epstein, Terry Francona or John Farrell said something, it usually struck me as plausible, rational, and the result of careful thought. I don't have that confidence anymore.

Lots of the blame can be laid with Epstein for giving big money to Lackey and Crawford, who were and remain bad fits for this team in this park, but Cherington overpaid in money, years and talent for a middling reliever and a generic infielder, and was outbid for talent. Mark Melançon is a rather ordinary reliever whose upside depends on a cutter that worked against the NL Central. Kelly Shoppach is a retread. Nick Punto is overpaid, oversigned (2 years for a ute?), and over here. The pitching was a weak spot, and has not improved. The Red Sox have lost starters to surgery (nobody will miss John Lackey anyway, but there are innings to replace), a closer to the Phillies, and Yu Darvish to the Rangers. Sure, it could have been worse if the Yankees had won the Darvish contest -- but the Red Sox Didn't. Even. Bid.

The team's approach reeks of complacency and scapegoating. The diagnosis appears to be that the problem was with management, not players, and the team needed a renewal of leadership rather than talent. About the best that can be expected at this point is for the team to add a veteran starter like Roy Oswalt, and hope that a bullpen structure emerges in spring training. Questionable new leadership, minimal new on-field talent, low ceiling for further acquisitions -- if this keeps up for much longer, you can change my name to Gnashing Joe Hesketh.

[mikeford]

First season in a very long time that I am actually not looking forward to.

If I could fast-forward through the next 2 years, I would. I have no positive expectations for what is about to happen.

[jon abbey]

Of course, judging by how last offseason went, Boston should be hoisting an AL East pennant in April 2013.

[glennhoffmania]

What is the worst offseason ever? I nominate 2011.

Well we still have a couple of months to go.

[C4CRVT]

First season in a very long time that I am actually not looking forward to.

If I could fast-forward through the next 2 years, I would. I have no positive expectations for what is about to happen.

If any fan base should know better than to think that the games are played on paper, it's us.

One of my personal gauges for any sports team is performance relative to expectations (very much part of what made last year so frustrating). There's nothing exciting about the guys brought into the fold yet this year and there are plenty of reasons to be worried about the approach but no one knows how things are going to play out.

The lack of movement toward the last two pieces of the pitching staff has me a little worried but there's still time. I find the RS approach less perplexing than a Belichick draft.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Well we still have a couple of months to go.

Indeed we do. Baseball is a very strange game. Last year, you could have looked at the Yankees and said they needed to improve their rotation and didn't do it and out of nowhere comes Colon and Nova.

If Youkilis and Buchholz get healthy and Crawford returns to his pre-2010 form - it may be enough to win this division. They can still use pitching but there are still viable options available via free agency or trade.

The winter is long.

[Foulkey Reese]

They very well may win it all in 2012, but September to right now has been the most miserable four month period of Red Sox fandom in my lifetime. As bad as Boone was, they had Schilling within a month and there was a ton of excitement.

So far we've seen:

Worst regular season collapse ever
Tito trashed and gone
Theo gone with no compensation yet
Papelbon gone
No bid on Darvish
Punto for 2 years (!)
Bobby V
Bob "I ruined Gil Meche" McClure
Ben's brainless JD Drew comments
Zero trade/free agent excitement

Again, I expect the Sox to be a competitive team in 2012, but everything from Sept to now has totally sucked. If Tek and or Wakefield come back I'll probably cry.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 26 December 2011 - 09:47 PM.

[rembrat]

Regardless, this offseason sux. None of the new acquisitions provide reassurance that the Red Sox have acquired the talent or brains to do better in 2012. Ben Cherington strikes me as a little bit simple-minded and in love with grit, visible effort, and baseball clichés. Bobby Valentine is an indiscreet loudmouth in love with the sound of his own voice. Bob McClure drips with low-budget baseball zen. When Theo Epstein, Terry Francona or John Farrell said something, it usually struck me as plausible, rational, and the result of careful thought. I don't have that confidence anymore.

Are you me?

[barbed wire Bob]

I don't think this is the worst offseason ever simply because my expectations for the offseason weren't very high. The payroll is right at the luxury tax limit and management has made it very clear that they preferred not to go over. Along with that, the FA market looked weak this year and there wasn't any player I wanted out there for the money they would command. That being said, this is still a good team and they moves that they made, while not flashy, are solid.

[mt8thsw9th]

No, but this offseason has done a lot to prove that Red Sox fans are mostly a lot of whiny, entitled bitches.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

No, but this offseason has done a lot to prove that Red Sox fans are mostly a lot of whiny, entitled bitches.

The only positive I take take from this shitshow of an offseason is that it will get a lot of the spoiled brats away from following the franchise.

Signing Nick Punto more than negates that small benefit, though. Suffice it to say I have no faith in the people now running this organization. Their choices seem to be driven by publicity and Q factor rather than winning as many games as possible. Their public statements have been followed up by actions that make me facepalm in disbelief.

Still, it could be worse. They could always sign David Eckstein and extend Wake and Tek another 3 years.

[Rudy Pemberton]

From last year's team, they've lost two guys with 1+ WAR; Papelbon (3), and Lackey (1.5). The deals to date have hardly been exciting, but I think a lot of the outrage over them (including my own) was reactionary and a byproduct of an overall sense of frustration and lack of confidence in the organization. Given the teams needs and payroll issues, there was no reason to think they'd do much early.

If they add Kuroda or Oswalt and Bailey or Madson without losing anything more than Reddick, than I think the player moves are a net positive. If they end up with Jeff Francis and no reliever, than its worst offseason evah.

I can agree that the GM and coaching staff turnover has been a mess, but the player personnel stuff hasn't been bad. Everyone knew Papelbon was gone, and that the Sox didn't have enough cash to make a huge move.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Signing Nick Punto more than negates that small benefit, though. Suffice it to say I have no faith in the people now running this organization. Their choices seem to be driven by publicity and Q factor rather than winning as many games as possible. Their public statements have been followed up by actions that make me facepalm in disbelief.

I don't get this. Signing Punto was a PR move? Punto has a high Q score? All available data, the kind that folks here usually recite ad nauseum, suggest Punto was a stathead signing, a guy whose value on the field is worth more than in the marketplace.

I don't really know what the organization is doing, but the big splash / PR move (a la Crawford, Lackey) probably would have been Darvish.

Although, I guess you can spin this any way you want. I still expect this club to win ~95 games next year.

[Sprowl]

Are you me?

Yes. We have met the whiny, entitled Red Sox fans, and they are us.



Darvish or Gonzalez would have been real talent with upside. Oswalt, Kuroda or Madson would be real talent, but without upside. Instead, we have acquired non-talent without upside.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I don't get this. Signing Punto was a PR move? Punto has a high Q score? All available data, the kind that folks here usually recite ad nauseum, suggest Punto was a stathead signing, a guy whose value on the field is worth more than in the marketplace.

I don't really know what the organization is doing, but the big splash / PR move (a la Crawford, Lackey) probably would have been Darvish.

Although, I guess you can spin this any way you want. I still expect this club to win ~95 games next year.

No. Bobby V was a Q rating move. Trashing Tito on his way out the door was a Q rating move as well. Ben shooting his mouth off and saying he wanted guys who looked like they cared instead of bums like Drew and then signing Stiff Shitty White Guy Nick Fucking Punto was the follow up for that idiotic statement.

Punto is not a stathead signing. He's a bad signing. He's a bad player. And they gave him 2 years, when he should have been in a camp as a non-roster invitee. It's moronic and beyond all explanation and it's a clear sign Ben is not to be trusted so far.

I will be genuinely shocked if this team even wins 85 games next year. Their starting rotation is still woefully thin and populated with selfish fatasses who choked down the stretch, the bullpen lost a good pitcher and is still terribly thin (well, the depth is anyway, the pitchers themselves have harpoons sticking out of their bloated carcasses), they have lost the two men most responsible for the recent era of unprecedented success, and have replaced them with a blabbering know it all media whore and a guy who likes players who get their uniforms dirty as opposed to, you know, good players, and his initial signings seem to bear that out. Losing Papelbon was not unexpected, but any replacement they line up will likely be worse.

I am thoroughly unimpressed. I can actually tolerate a shitty season in 2012 very well if I can be assured that Ben and Bobby V would be flushed quickly after such a season; I think neither man is up for the take of assembling and managing a long-term winner here. The guys capable of doing that got bumrushed out of town.

Nick Fucking Punto. Christ. Intolerable.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I'll give you credit for consistency, SJH, as that rant reads just like the one you wrote about the Pats after they lost to the Giants earlier this year. Lucky to win 9 games! team is dogshit!

Punto is not a stathead signing. He's a bad signing. He's a bad player. And they gave him 2 years, when he should have been in a camp as a non-roster invitee. It's moronic and beyond all explanation and it's a clear sign Ben is not to be trusted so far.

WAR the past three years...1.8, 1.3, 1.8. Versatile player who is excellent defensively, can run the bases, and is relatively durable. Solid OBP for a backup infielder. I know he has no power, but the vitriol over this deal is ridiculous. He'll make less money for the Sox next year than Okajima did this year.

All available evidence suggests Valentine gets more out of his teams than should be expected. He has managed in multiple continents, he's well versed stastically. Managed successfully in major market. Sure he's not perfect, neither was Tito. I don't buy that Bobby V was a "Q rating" hire, though. He seems to be popular among Mets fans, not Sox fans. Are Sox fans really enthusiastic about Valentine?

I will be genuinely shocked if this team even wins 85 games next year.

$100 to the Jimmy Fund if they win less than 85, deal?

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 26 December 2011 - 10:42 PM.

[judyb]

I don't think this is the worst offseason ever simply because my expectations for the offseason weren't very high. The payroll is right at the luxury tax limit and management has made it very clear that they preferred not to go over. Along with that, the FA market looked weak this year and there wasn't any player I wanted out there for the money they would command. That being said, this is still a good team and they moves that they made, while not flashy, are solid.

They had some flexibility, they spent almost all of it on a DH and the rest on backups.

[Pumpsie]

A little early, isn't it? This offseason isn't over yet. If we stop here, then, yeah, you've got a nominee. But the last two offseasons haven't been especially good, tainted as they were by budget-crippling contracts to Lackey and Crawford. And the jury is still out on Ben's first offseason because a lot of talent is still out there and the longer time goes on, the better those contracts will be for whomever signs them. Let's show a little bit of patience.

And Tito and Theo both HAD to go. HAD to. The time was ripe.

[bosockboy]

The Punto outrage is ridiculous. He's a utility guy....whatever length and for however much they signed him for will not keep them from doing anything else they choose to do.

It's not even remotely worth worrying about.

Due to being up against the luxury tax.....Ben has been forced to play the market out and get the best deal. He will likely sign one of Kuroda/Oswalt and likely acquire Bailey.

If these last few months have been miserable....go be a Royals fan and have your season over by Fathers Day. Get a grip.

[StuckOnYouk]

They had some flexibility, they spent almost all of it on a DH and the rest on backups.

They didn't have that much flexibility unless you wanted them to kick Ortiz to the curb. the same guy who just put up the 8th best OPS in the majors and the 9th best OPS+. Certainly doesn't mean that Ortiz is going to have an identical season but I have a feeling his drop off won't be that big esp if he still wants to hit the market next year for a 2 yr deal or guarantee himself another 15 mil arb case after another strong season.

And yeah, their big signings have been backups, but I'd say Punto and Shoppach are pretty damn good as backups, both have their positives in particular areas.

I don't really understand the thought here with this thread. We just signed/traded for two huge contracts last offseason in Crawford and Gonzalez. You really expect 1-2 major signings every single offseason? As is the owners are going to be spending close to the luxury tax, so its not like they're really tightening their belts.

And lastly, as has been said this offseason is not over yet. This thread reminds of me a Shaughnessy article.

[YouLookAdopted]

We got a wifi network.

[Savin Hillbilly]

So let me get this straight. So far we've given up:

1 good-hitting, poor-fielding, inconsistent and injury-prone UIF
1 AAA pitcher whose ceiling is probably a league-average setup guy

and acquired

1 good-fielding, poor-hitting, healthy and reliable UIF
1 2-year ML pitcher who has already performed respectably in a closer role and whose floor is probably a league-average setup guy

And this is the worst offseason ever?

Good grief.

[mascho]

So let me get this straight. So far we've given up:

1 good-hitting, poor-fielding, inconsistent and injury-prone UIF
1 AAA pitcher whose ceiling is probably a league-average setup guy

and acquired

1 good-fielding, poor-hitting, healthy and reliable UIF
1 2-year ML pitcher who has already performed respectably in a closer role and whose floor is probably a league-average setup guy

And this is the worst offseason ever?

Good grief.

Well, there's Theo/Tito for Ben/Bobby V. I don't think that can be discounted in the calculus.

[rembrat]

So let me get this straight. So far we've given up:

1 good-hitting, poor-fielding, inconsistent and injury-prone UIF
1 AAA pitcher whose ceiling is probably a league-average setup guy

and acquired

1 good-fielding, poor-hitting, healthy and reliable UIF
1 2-year ML pitcher who has already performed respectably in a closer role and whose floor is probably a league-average setup guy

And this is the worst offseason ever?

Good grief.

Yes, this is the only thing that has happened.

[BucketOBalls]

Nevertheless, this offseason sux. None of the new acquisitions provide reassurance that the Red Sox have acquired the talent or brains to do better in 2012. Ben Cherington strikes me as a little bit simple-minded and in love with grit, visible effort, and baseball clichés. Bobby Valentine is an indiscreet loudmouth in love with the sound of his own voice. Bob McClure drips with low-budget baseball zen. When Theo Epstein, Terry Francona or John Farrell said something, it usually struck me as plausible, rational, and the result of careful thought. I don't have that confidence anymore.

This I agree with. With the exception of the Mirabelli trade, there were very few moves in last 8 years that just seemed dumb at the time. Many didn't work out of course, but I could see the logic of most of them at the time. Lackey and Crawford felt like JD Drew: an overpay, but

This offseason has felt like the reactionary stuff we use to laugh at when it happened to other teams.

The Punto outrage is ridiculous. He's a utility guy....whatever length and for however much they signed him for will not keep them from doing anything else they choose to do.

The Punto outrage comes from the apparent thought process behind it, rather than the actual move. Your right in that, in the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter. But what it seems to be saying about the FO's thought processes is disconcerting. 2 years?

[brs3]

Following the 1996 season, 3 time Cy Young winner & best pitcher(by a lot) on the team, Roger Clemens, took off, Jose Canseco was traded with his 28 HRs to Texas for John Wasdin, Mike Greenwell departed for Japan, and Wally The Green Monster debuted. They responded by bringing in Mike Benjamin, Steve Avery, and Bret Saberhagen. Nick Punto is arguably better than Mike Benjamin, and Benjamin ended up starting a year later.

It used to be a dark, dark place. I think some folks need to calm down a bit with the idea that this is the worst off season ever.

edit: They also hired Jimy Williams. Who would you rather have at the helm, Bobby V or Jimy M'Fing Williams?

Edited by brs3, 26 December 2011 - 11:51 PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

Well, there's Theo/Tito for Ben/Bobby V. I don't think that can be discounted in the calculus.

Theo wanted out for an easier job that would pay him more money. And his last two years at the GM position here produced a total of $340 million worth of third place. Ed fucking Wade could do that.

Tito's team wasn't playing hard for him. They weren't. Period. He had to go.

We'll see what Cherington and Valentime do but let's not romanticize their predecessors. Tito's tenure had run its course and they have no flexibility now because genius Theo's $340 million worth of 3rd place these last two years has left them no room to maneuver.

[rembrat]

You dont like Adrian Gonzalez?

[Rough Carrigan]

You dont like Adrian Gonzalez?

Of course I do. There are other good values on the roster. But overall, genius Theo spent $340 million the last two seasons for a whole lot of third place, and wrote us all a bullshit editorial lest the proles start thinking badly of it.

[rembrat]

The team Theo constructed for 2011 was a goddamn juggernaut until someone shattered a mirror underneath a ladder at an Indian burial ground while a black cat watched.

And 2010, was injury after injury. I fail to see how 3rd place was his fault.

But yes, sign Oswalt and trade for Bailey, those guys are pillars of health.

[Rasputin]

This is why this place is so embarrassing sometimes.

Take the team that finished last year. Give it an offseason to get healthy and start the season. The Sox are at worst the fifth best team in the AL and most likely in the top 2-3 with about as good a chance at winning the world series as anyone.

Since then we've lost a JD Drew, closer, a manager, a GM, a bunch of coaches, Jed Lowrie, John Lackey, and any semblance of a connection to reality.

How many teams would kill to have a front three of Beckett, Lester, Buchholz? Damn near all of them.

How many would kill to have Pedroia, Ellsbury, Ortiz, Gonzalez, and Youkilis in the same lineup? Damn near all of them.

This team had the worst September imaginable and finished with the fifth best record in the AL just seven games behind the best. If you think this team is going to collapse into mediocrity then you should seriously ask yourself if you're a reactionary nitwit because you sure as hell look like one.

I don't know what this team is going to do the rest of the offseason. I know I want another starting pitcher and I'd be pretty pleased with a solid end of the 'pen guy on top of that but it doesn't really matter. The things this team is looking for are the small things around the edges. The big things that give a team a chance to win it all rather than being out of it by June ARE ALREADY HERE.

The offense is going to be among the top handful regardless of whether Carl Crawford bounces back from the worst year of his career. And if he does, and if Ellsbury's 2011 is more the norm than the exception then the 2012 Red Sox are going to score runs to a degree that will make you weak in the knees.

Fuck, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be predicting 117 wins for these fuckers. The way I see it they are almost exactly like last year but with something to prove.

12 of the first fifteen games are against teams that were in the post season in 2011 and stand a good chance of being there again in 2012. I'm pretty sure we're going to win more of those than we lose.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Theo wanted out for an easier job that would pay him more money. And his last two years at the GM position here produced a total of $340 million worth of third place. Ed fucking Wade could do that.

Tito's team wasn't playing hard for him. They weren't. Period. He had to go.

We'll see what Cherington and Valentine do but let's not romanticize their predecessors. Tito's tenure had run its course and they have no flexibility now because genius Theo's $340 million worth of 3rd place these last two years has left them no room to maneuver.

I hate to say "this" but, this, this a thousand times motherfracking this!

Francona was done - even he admitted it in the end. And I know Theo gets a free pass around these parts for his contributions to two World Championship teams, but his record outside of those seasons was questionable at best. For a guy who a lot of people dubbed a genius, he really did make a lot of incredibly poor deals - and we aren't talking a small sample size either.

Finally, are we really up in arms about Nick Punto? I mean the guy is dreck but every ML roster has one or two guys who get too many PAs because of they are (correctly or otherwise) perceived to be defensive specialists or have intangibles or whatever. Hell, the Sox had those guys to spare way back when Theo was the bestest GM in all of the land. As for the cost, I doubt that Nick Punto's deal will prevent the Sox from acquiring another player and it will be amazing if his contract leads to higher ticket prices at Fenway.

Worst off-season ever? How about after 1978, or 1986 or even after 2003 (even with the acquisitions, a World Championship was still but a dream)? This off-season isn't even in the conversation...

[941827]

Theo wanted out for an easier job that would pay him more money.

Taking over a horrible team in a major market with a fan base dying for a savior is not an "easier job" than filling a few gaps on an already-good team in a major market. Also, while it's true Theo is making more money with the Cubs, do you really think Henry wouldn't have bumped Theo's salary if he'd asked for it?

I'm not sure why you keep insinuating that Theo lied in his editorial. He said he wanted a new challenge. The fact that the new challenge paid more doesn't make it untrue that he wanted to do something different. In fact, I think it's now been well-established that Theo had been saying for quite some time that he was ready to go do something else, which only reinforces the idea that he was going to leave either this year or next.

Why you constantly claim he lied -- and what you think he lied about -- is beyond me.

[redsox2020]

We've managed to avoid adding yet another albatross contract to the team thus far. That has to count for something.

[nvalvo]

How many teams would kill to have a front three of Beckett, Lester, Buchholz? Damn near all of them.

How many would kill to have Pedroia, Ellsbury, Ortiz, Gonzalez, and Youkilis in the same lineup? Damn near all of them.

This is where I am. This offseason has been something of a setback — I certainly don't think it has been a *good* one, and there's a lot about the team that I'm unhappy with — but it's hard to see it as an especially bad offseason because the team as it stands today is competitive. The window is emphatically still open.

There are a few more pieces to add, certainly, and Ben may well botch the last few touches. But he hasn't done so yet, and it seems like pieces are available that could work (Madson would be my next move, if ownership can be persuaded to foot the bill...). In any case, this is a substantially complete team, and one that I think everyone should consider ready to contend. We should have an above average pitching staff and a top 3 offense. That's a good recipe.

I would predict at least one playoff game, likely with Anaheim, for a whole lot of marbles.

[geoduck no quahog]

Imagine what Yankee fans are thinking...

I see one big and one small puzzle piece missing - with all the time to July 2012 to piece them.

The Sox need to get another pitcher - hopefully a back-of-rotation starter so that Bard can close and Melancon/Jenks can set up. On the other hand, if they get a reliever, they're gambling that Bard's a starter (risky bet) and that the Red Sox can piece together a bullpen the way almost every other team in baseball does - with improbable pitchers rising to be semi-stars based on the whim of Baseball God. Bullpens...you explain them to me because I can't figure them out.

A decent RH right fielder would be a plus, but not essential.

What have the premier AL teams done so far?

Angels - (this year's splashers)
Rangers - (this year's sploogers)
Yankees - nada
Tigers - Octavio Dotel, Gerald Laird, Ramon Santiago and Collin Balester
Rays - Josh Lueka and Jose Molina
Jays - Ben Francisco, Trystan Magnusson and Jeff Mathis
Twins - Jamey Carroll, Ryan Doumit, Josh Willingham and Jason Marquis

wow.

[Steve Dillard]

The Punto outrage comes from the apparent thought process behind it, rather than the actual move. Your right in that, in the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter. But what it seems to be saying about the FO's thought processes is disconcerting. 2 years?

Alex Cora for 2 years $4 million was just the same, except Cora couldnt hit or field, but was a clubhouse guy.

And Cherington's comments about players caring is being deliberately misconstrued to mean he wants players who "look" like they care, playing out the old Trot Nixon/JD Drew schism, rather than Cherington simply pointing out a sympton of the team's lack of heart was that JD Drew had to be forced to play with his finger the last two games rather than him begging to play.

Edited by Steve Dillard, 27 December 2011 - 06:45 AM.

[jacklamabe65]

They didn't have that much flexibility unless you wanted them to kick Ortiz to the curb. the same guy who just put up the 8th best OPS in the majors and the 9th best OPS+. Certainly doesn't mean that Ortiz is going to have an identical season but I have a feeling his drop off won't be that big esp if he still wants to hit the market next year for a 2 yr deal or guarantee himself another 15 mil arb case after another strong season.

And yeah, their big signings have been backups, but I'd say Punto and Shoppach are pretty damn good as backups, both have their positives in particular areas.

I don't really understand the thought here with this thread. We just signed/traded for two huge contracts last offseason in Crawford and Gonzalez. You really expect 1-2 major signings every single offseason? As is the owners are going to be spending close to the luxury tax, so its not like they're really tightening their belts.

And lastly, as has been said this offseason is not over yet. This thread reminds of me a Shaughnessy article.

Amen, sponsored by CHB completely, who is now snickering that SoSH is starting to sound like him. 1980 was much, much worse. After all, we had those idiots still owning the team after the carnage had occurred - not an ownership team that has brought two World Series championships to Boston in the last seven years.

[Toe Nash]

Theo wanted out for an easier job that would pay him more money. And his last two years at the GM position here produced a total of $340 million worth of third place. Ed fucking Wade could do that.

Tito's team wasn't playing hard for him. They weren't. Period. He had to go.

We'll see what Cherington and Valentime do but let's not romanticize their predecessors. Tito's tenure had run its course and they have no flexibility now because genius Theo's $340 million worth of 3rd place these last two years has left them no room to maneuver.

Exactly. On October first I would have expected a thread this dour, not after people have had three months to think rationally.

This offseason may end up being bad, but it's pretty early to tell unless you know exactly how the team will perform under Bobby v and the new coaches. I'm wary on Cherington and I don't like Punto, but Cherington hasn't made a team-crippling move like his predecessor did (potentially twice, if Crawford doesn't rebound). So that's in his favor.

Worst offseason ever? Give me a break, Comic Book Guy. How about the one where they gave Willie Mays a tryout but had no intention of actually signing him?

Edited by Toe Nash, 27 December 2011 - 07:50 AM.

[Marbleheader]

I think most of the frustration comes from this going from a model franchise to a dysfunctional one in a short period of time. The other day I was watching Game 7 of the 2007 ALCS. The Sox were headed to their 2nd World Series in 4 years, they had these kids in Pedroia, Ellsbury and Papelbon making significant contributions. John Henry was smiling watching the offense explode in the final two innings. All was right with the world (not to mention the C's were about to start the Big 3 Era and Brady and Moss were on their way to a perfect regular season). The Sox future was so bright then, and the following seasons ended in increasing disappointment. The past 4 months have been rough and best, bordering on embarrassing. The only cure is winning, and unfortunately we are still another 4 months away from an opportunity to see if the can do that.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Remind me which young, exciting, hot manager prospect was out there?

Are people really pissed that we didn't get Dale Sveum? or Robin Ventura?

I know, some of us wanted the Sox to go after Dave Martinez, but what makes anyone think he would have been anything other than the next failed young manager? Hell, most folks here didn't want Francona, 8 years ago.

Punto sucks? The 25th man on the roster sucks? Good. Less arguments about who should get playing time. When you're pissed that your 25th man sucks, you've got it pretty good.

Get off of the bridge, go watch a Bruins game, and

[Drek717]

The team Theo constructed for 2011 was a goddamn juggernaut until someone shattered a mirror underneath a ladder at an Indian burial ground while a black cat watched.

Isn't that same "juggernaut" more or less in place though? If we're starting with something of such magnitude then how can effectively treading water be construed as "worst off-season ever"?

Melancon might look bad in hindsight if Lowrie suddenly gets healthy or Weiland has a complete transformation. But neither one has any real chance to do that in Boston. Lowrie will never earn a full time job here and Weiland's margin for error in the bullpen before he never sees the light of day would be very thin on this team. The simple truth is that the Red Sox 25 man roster is not where you cut your teeth and make the leap from questionable prospect to worthwhile contributor. The rest of the club just can't afford it when those bets fail to pan out (like we've seen with Lowrie time and time again due to health).

Meanwhile Melancon is a guy who has seen success at the big league level in high leverage innings, is young, and has developing tools that may well have been identified by scouting or analysis that indicate a potential breakout. The risk/reward on Melancon in the bullpen where ineffective play just moves him down the ladder to lower leverage innings but where he has legitimate Ryan Madson circa 2008 breakout potential is a far better bet than continuing to try and find roles for Lowrie and Weiland.

I live in St. Louis and think Nick Punto is a scrub. But at least in Boston he'll be an appropriately used scrub and he costs about what these guys should cost. So we might eat $1.5M in 2013 if we just cut bait with him. We eat more money than that year after year on higher risk bets with only marginally better payoff potential. Signing Scutaro to his 2+option deal is the best FA signing this org. has done recently because he wasn't a financial handcuff if you could upgrade but still offered a solid SS guarantee for three years. Punto is that rationale turned to the utility IF role. If we have a better in house option or can get an external upgrade on Nick Punto then he's released or given away in a trade. If not then at least we know that our utility infielder can actually play the damn infield.

Shoppach is a significant defensive upgrade from 'Tek who just can't keep runners honest anymore period. Offensively he offers a similar skill set to 'Tek, a LHP platoon partner for Salty. We got 8 years younger, better defensively, and with a better three year OPS v. lefties than the guy he's replacing. If Salty gets hurt Lavarnway is waiting in Pawtucket. There is no way we didn't improve our #2 C this off-season.

If the Cherrington slow plays the pitching market and walks away with a team friendly deal on someone like Mike Gonzalez, trades Kalish/Reddick and forgettable pieces for Bailey, and is able to sign Edwin Jackson/Kuroda/Oswalt within the remaining budget left this off-season will have successfully addressed our biggest needs and have us looking stronger in 2012 than we did in 2011.

My biggest concern for 2012 is Kevin Youkilis and the 3B situation. I have even less faith in him being healthy for the majority of 2012 than I did going into 2011 and the talent pool for 3B is absolutely horrible. I really feel like the 2012 season hinges on Youkilis' health and offensive rebound with a breakout by Middlebrooks as our only real insurance option.

[yecul]

I can excuse the small moves and PR based decisions. Septembers was such a disaster and revealed so many underlying problems that you get some leeway and the budget is the budget. We can discuss separately if the budget should have been opened up a bit.

However, I fully agree on the tone. The direction. To use a new popular term from our fearless leaders, the "feel" of the organization. For me, the confidence and comfort level in their decisions is lacking. I am not trusting in Ben. And heck, I don't even mind the Punto signing.

[bakahump]

I keep thinking we will find out that Cherington is actually Mayan and has said screw it.

[Delicious Sponge]

It's definitely the most uncertain off-season we may have ever seen.

The questions started from day 1.

What happened? Is our manager staying? Is our GM going? Who's going to manage? Who's in charge?

These aren't small questions - they're pretty existential for a top-tier ballclub...and they are only the off-field questions.

Then: Is the best DH the team has ever had staying? Are they going to keep one of the game's top closers?

Next: Will Crawford return to form? Who closes? Will Youkilis be healthy? Who plays RF? What happens with Varitek and Wakefield? What's the back of our rotation?

This offseason has been so hard because the questions are big and the answers have been unsatisfying - or won't be until they start to play the games.

If we went into 2004's spring training with a hell of a lot of anticipation, we're going into 2012's with trepidation and uncertainty.

[Infield Infidel]

I hate to say "this" but, this, this a thousand times motherfracking this!

Francona was done - even he admitted it in the end. And I know Theo gets a free pass around these parts for his contributions to two World Championship teams, but his record outside of those seasons was questionable at best. For a guy who a lot of people dubbed a genius, he really did make a lot of incredibly poor deals - and we aren't talking a small sample size either.

Finally, are we really up in arms about Nick Punto? I mean the guy is dreck but every ML roster has one or two guys who get too many PAs because of they are (correctly or otherwise) perceived to be defensive specialists or have intangibles or whatever. Hell, the Sox had those guys to spare way back when Theo was the bestest GM in all of the land. As for the cost, I doubt that Nick Punto's deal will prevent the Sox from acquiring another player and it will be amazing if his contract leads to higher ticket prices at Fenway.

Worst off-season ever? How about after 1978, or 1986 or even after 2003 (even with the acquisitions, a World Championship was still but a dream)? This off-season isn't even in the conversation...

Either my sarcasm meter is off, or this is a very strange post. Except for winning three Super Bowls, Bill Walsh didn't win any Super Bowls!

Not only can you not take the Theo's two titles off the record, but his tenure also included four other post-season appearances (2003, 2005, 2008, 2009). He missed the playoffs three times in 9 years.

And as demoralizing as 2003 was, getting Foulke and Schilling was pretty uplifting.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Yes, this is the only thing that has happened.

OK, I'm not in love with Bobby V and I certainly wasn't in love with the Bobby V selection process. But a poorly handled change of managers with a mildly disappointing result does not an epically bad offseason make.

This offseason has felt like the reactionary stuff we use to laugh at when it happened to other teams.

The kind of transactions we've seen so far make pretty small beer in the reactionary department. What exactly is reactionary about trading marginal players to upgrade your bullpen or signing a veteran UIF for small change?

Now if they'd spent 3/$30M on a doubtful RF upgrade in the person of Cuddyer, that would have been reactionary.

The Punto outrage comes from the apparent thought process behind it, rather than the actual move. Your right in that, in the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter. But what it seems to be saying about the FO's thought processes is disconcerting. 2 years?

As has already been pointed out in other threads, they didn't set the market that gave Punto two years, other teams did with the deals given to McDonald et al. And there's at least a borderline argument that it made sense to give two years in our case because of the fragility of our left-side infield and the uncertain ETAs of those guys' replacements. The thought process behind the signing appears to have been pretty simple: they needed a reliable, experienced defensive infielder on the bench.

They do need to pick up at least one more pitcher, but really, the '88-'89 offseason, when we lost Hurst to FA, or the 1992-93 one, when our consolation prize for losing Boggs was the stinking corpse of Andre Dawson, are way worse than this one will be even if they stop where they are. And those are just the first two bad ones I could think of.

[Rough Carrigan]

Taking over a horrible team in a major market with a fan base dying for a savior is not an "easier job" than filling a few gaps on an already-good team in a major market. Also, while it's true Theo is making more money with the Cubs, do you really think Henry wouldn't have bumped Theo's salary if he'd asked for it?

I'm not sure why you keep insinuating that Theo lied in his editorial. He said he wanted a new challenge. The fact that the new challenge paid more doesn't make it untrue that he wanted to do something different. In fact, I think it's now been well-established that Theo had been saying for quite some time that he was ready to go do something else, which only reinforces the idea that he was going to leave either this year or next.

Why you constantly claim he lied -- and what you think he lied about -- is beyond me.

He's getting paid about twice as much as he was with the Sox. I don't think that was mentioned in the editorial.

He's now the president, not the GM of the Cubs. Jed Hoyer is the Cubs GM. Theo can now work Larry Lucchino hours instead of phone calls 24/7 GM hours. I don't think that got mentioned in the editorial.

If you think those factors had zero, absolutely nothing to do with changing jobs, then you don't think he lied.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

He's getting paid about twice as much as he was with the Sox. I don't think that was mentioned in the editorial.

He's now the president, not the GM of the Cubs. Jed Hoyer is the Cubs GM. Theo can now work Larry Lucchino hours instead of phone calls 24/7 GM hours. I don't think that got mentioned in the editorial.

If you think those factors had zero, absolutely nothing to do with changing jobs, then you don't think he lied.

So not including extra details about his pay and likely working hours means he lied about wanting a new challenge? So if I said I like this team's chances in 2012 because of Gonzalez and Ellsbury, but failed to mention Pedroia, Buchholz, Lester and Bard, does that turn my optimism into a lie? Because that's essentially what you're arguing here.

This thread makes this site look like nyyfans.net. Hyperbole doesn't even cover the ridiculousness of the premise. As has been pointed out this team will field one of the best (if not the best) offenses in all of baseball, has three excellent starting pitchers fronting their rotation, still has some solid bullpen arms with some excellent defensive players in key positions, with a few months to plug in the holes. Not only does this not qualify for consideration in a "worst of all time" discussion, it's not even really all that bad in the first place.

I'm not terribly excited about Valentine or Cherrington. I'm not happy with much of anything the team has had happen or done since the end of August. But this Red Sox team is still primed to be a playoff contender in 2012, regardless of how the rest of the off season shakes out. I'd be confident in predicting between 92-97 wins in 2012. So far they've lost their closer from last year and the worst pitcher in the major leagues. They've responded upgrading from Lowrie to Punto (yes, I said upgrade. Lowrie amassed a stunning 2.2 WAR in the last two years combined, Punto has been worth 3.1) making the bench stronger, and bringing Melencon who provides the flexibility to start Bard should they fail to find a deal that makes sense for another starting pitcher. Either Bard closes in 2012 and the pen is in pretty good shape (Bard, Melencon, Jenks is a actually a really solid back end) or they'll have him start and will need to bring in someone like Madsen or Bailey to plug that hole. In either case, the pen should be fine and the rotation will certainly be well better than average.

And then we have the best offense in the majors coming back with an expected reversion from Ellsbury, and expected reversion in the other direction from Crawford (I expect these to essentially cancel each other out), probably a step back from Papi, and potentially a step forward for Gonzalez who will be a full year removed from his surgery and should return to more steady power numbers. This all adds up to a playoff caliber team who should have their eyes set on a World Series run.

How that adds up to the worst off season ever is baffling to me.

[Rough Carrigan]

When you write something to explain why you left one job for another and leave out two crucial factors, yes, you lied. It's a lie by omission to make himself look better but it's a lie. Theo can lie. Yes. Shocking. Let's move on.