160 replies to this topic

[PedroSpecialK]

Just your regular, everyday 8 match ban and £40,000 fine for Suarez, pending appeal.

[DLew On Roids]

What a travesty. But hey, Evra got a rival off the pitch for 8 games. I'm sure he's pleased one of his scams finally paid off.

Edited by DLew On Roids, 20 December 2011 - 03:15 PM.

[PedroSpecialK]

Even if he can appeal it down to ~6, that's a massive blow.

Andy Carroll, our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

[DLew On Roids]

The way I read it, this could go on for most of the rest of the season. The commission hasn't written up its findings yet, so an appeal process couldn't begin until that report is issued.

[PedroSpecialK]

A-ha. Maybe Suarez will have retired by then.

[SoxFanInCali]

Unreal.

Is there even one person out there that thinks John Terry will get anywhere close to this punishment?

[DLew On Roids]

Liverpool is not backing down.

Money quotes:

"We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone when no-one else on the field of play - including Evra's own Manchester United teammates and all the match officials - heard the alleged conversation between the two players in a crowded Kop goalmouth while a corner kick was about to be taken."

"We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms."

The next time Alex Ferguson talks about getting crappy treatment from the FA, this needs to be thrown back in his lying, gin-blossomed face. What a fucking farce.

[SoxFanInPdx]

Fuck the FA, Evra and United. Baseless bullshit. Basically, the FA is just making an example out of Suarez.

[OilCanCoulter]

If Suarez was English, there is no hearing, no charge, no media. This is absolute rubbish.

If Evra is not charged after admitting what he said, this is worse than a complete mockery,

Edited by OilCanCoulter, 20 December 2011 - 08:01 PM.

[Apisith]

Suarez is a cunt and he deserves this.

[JayMags71]

Care to analyze why in this specific instance?

[DLew On Roids]

Suarez is a cunt and he deserves this.

Getting passed by Liverpool in the table hurts, huh? Just think how much it'll suck when Norwich blows past you on your way to 12th place in May. You'll probably be stuck calling Grant Holt things like twatknuckle by then since you'll be out of words.

[Snakebauer007]

Is there video of the incident to look at? Didn't anyone bother to read the case facts and want to do an Objective breakdown of the FA's case. Too lazy

[JayMags71]

I assume you're referring to yourself as lazy since:

There was, despite Evra’s allegations to Canal Plus after the October 15 match at Anfield, no video evidence to back up his claims that Suarez had abused him “at least 10 times”.

[Zomp]

There is no video I don't think because the Premier League takes down anything on youtube due to copyright issues.

Also, shouldn't everyone relax before reading the published reasoning's by the panel?

That Liverpool statement is kind of weird though. They say a few times that Suarez is not racist, that even Evra admitted he didn't think he was. But thats not what Suarez is being charged with. He's being charged with using insulting words involving race. If he told the panel he did...I'm not sure what everyone is up in arms about.

For a while there has been reports that Suarez told the panel he did say negro, but did it because in Uruguay its not a bad term. I'm not sure if I would buy that, given that he's lived in Amsterdamn for the past 3 years. Surely he's aware of the kick racism out of football campaigns?

[Snakebauer007]

Definitely Referring to myself as the lazy one, but I read and heard their is video but all the links I found are incomplete or without audio, not zoomed in etc. I can't believe they'd hand down a punishment without evidence, but you never know.

[Snakebauer007]

Definitely Referring to myself as the lazy one, but I read and heard their is video but all the links I found are incomplete or without audio, not zoomed in etc. I can't believe they'd hand down a punishment without evidence, but you never know.

http://www.thefa.com...ation201112.pdf

page 119

[SoxFanInCali]

Here is the FA Statement in full:

An Independent Regulatory Commission has today [Tuesday 20 December 2011] found a charge of misconduct against Luis Suarez proven, and have issued a suspension for a period of eight matches as well as fining him £40,000, pending appeal.

On 16 November 2011, The Football Association charged Luis Suarez with misconduct contrary to FA Rule E3 in relation to the Liverpool FC versus Manchester United FC fixture on 15 October 2011.

A hearing took place from 14-20 December 2011 before an Independent Regulatory Commission of The FA to consider the charge.

The Independent Regulatory Commission announced its decision on 20 December 2011, which is as follows:

Mr Suarez used insulting words towards Mr Evra during the match contrary to FA Rule E3(1);
the insulting words used by Mr Suarez included a reference to Mr Evra's colour within the meaning of Rule E3(2);
Mr Suarez shall be warned as to his future conduct, be suspended for eight matches covering all first team competitive matches and fined the sum of £40,000;
the [penalty] is suspended pending the outcome of any appeal lodged by Mr Suarez against this decision.
The Independent Regulatory Commission will provide written reasons for its decision in due course setting out:

(a) the findings of fact made by it;

(b) the reasons for its decision finding the charge proved; and

© the reasons for the penalty.

Mr Suarez has the right to appeal the decision of the Independent Regulatory Commission to an Appeal Board. An appeal must be lodged within 14 days of the date of the written reasons for the decision.

The penalty is suspended until after the outcome of any appeal, or the time for appealing expires, or should Mr Suarez decide not to appeal. The reason for this is to ensure that the penalty does not take effect before any appeal so that Mr Suarez has an effective right of appeal.

Note the part I bolded. Basically, they are saying they have made the decision, but will provide the reasons for it later. This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder what the hell is going on over at the FA. At this point, we don't know if there was video evidence, or if anyone else heard the conversation. Liverpool's statement basically says that the punishment was decided due to Evra's testimony alone. If that's true, I have a big problem with this, but I'll reserve judgment until the official reasons are released. But come on, the game was 2 months ago, it's taken them this long to make a decision, but they can't be bothered to actually write down their reasons yet? Most of this discussion could have been avoided had they simply released their reasoning for the punishment at the same time they announced it.

Zomp, I've heard the talk that Suarez did use the word "negro". In that same story, it was said that Evra allegedly said to Suarez "Don't touch me, South American". Obviously that sounds like a rather bizarre thing to say in the heat of the moment. Speculation that I have read is that Evra actually called Suarez a "sudaca", which would translate to South American, but is used as a disparaging term against them. If true, that would explain the part of Liverpool's statement asking when Evra will be charged. Again, if the FA would have just released their evidence along with their findings, there wouldn't be this amount of speculation.

[JayMags71]

[DLew On Roids]

I fully expect the FA to release a statement to the effect that since the "South American" comment wasn't in Marriner's report, it can't be the basis of a charge. In other words, it'll give players every incentive to be hypocritical, lying shits.

[Pesky Pole]

Here is the FA Statement in full:



Note the part I bolded. Basically, they are saying they have made the decision, but will provide the reasons for it later. This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder what the hell is going on over at the FA. At this point, we don't know if there was video evidence, or if anyone else heard the conversation. Liverpool's statement basically says that the punishment was decided due to Evra's testimony alone. If that's true, I have a big problem with this, but I'll reserve judgment until the official reasons are released. But come on, the game was 2 months ago, it's taken them this long to make a decision, but they can't be bothered to actually write down their reasons yet? Most of this discussion could have been avoided had they simply released their reasoning for the punishment at the same time they announced it.

Zomp, I've heard the talk that Suarez did use the word "negro". In that same story, it was said that Evra allegedly said to Suarez "Don't touch me, South American". Obviously that sounds like a rather bizarre thing to say in the heat of the moment. Speculation that I have read is that Evra actually called Suarez a "sudaca", which would translate to South American, but is used as a disparaging term against them. If true, that would explain the part of Liverpool's statement asking when Evra will be charged. Again, if the FA would have just released their evidence along with their findings, there wouldn't be this amount of speculation.

Your second paragraph nails it in my opinion. I have to think this whole thing is over the use of the term "negro" and what the interpreted intent of the word was when Suarez said it. Suarez may have admitted using the word but is saying that the term doesn't have negative connotations in his native land / language. Given that there is no apparent video evidence and no one else to testify it happened, I have to think that is where we are. If so, Suarez is guilty of honesty. So the FA is basically saying your native language doesn't matter and you should all lie in any future incident.

[Zomp]

Unreal.

Is there even one person out there that thinks John Terry will get anywhere close to this punishment?

Yes.

[DLew On Roids]

You beat the Guardian story by 10 minutes. Impressive. Do you stream 5 Live at work or something?

[teddykgb]

I guess I understand the rage of Liverpool fans to some extent, it's your team and this is a big blow, but are you really that surprised?

The FA was always going to make a statement about racism in football. You really have to be incredibly charitable toward Suarez to believe that he absolutely did nothing wrong here. Yes, it's highly likely that a mountain is being made out of more of a mole hill, but once this got into the hands of the FA, there really was only one way this was going to end, and all of it is avoided by just not getting into racial stuff on the field, and that's true for both of them.

[SoxFanInCali]

Yes.

He's been charged with a crime that has a maximum punishment of a £2,500 fine. This is the legal equivalent of a speeding ticket.

It remains to be seen what the FA does. They put their investigation on hold until this ruling. Will they restart it, or wait for the trial to conclude?

EDIT: Terry's court case is scheduled for February 1st. I doubt the FA will do anything until then.

Edited by SoxFanInCali, 21 December 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[ethangl]

Add this to Evra's past history of inventing racial incidents, and it's pretty clear he's the one who should be in front of the FA.

I don't think Evra has made any accusations in the past:

2006 -- deaf person lip-reads Steve Finnan
2008 -- Man U coaches accuse Chelsea groundskeeper

Basically, the FA is just making an example out of Suarez.

Yeah, that's kinda the point of suspensions... right?

[cjdmadcow]

Just because I'm a Liverpool fan doesn't mean I'm going to jump in and defend Luis Suarez because he's one of our players.

This is turning out to be a seriously complex issue for the FA, involving as it does potential cultural differences in the use of certain words and one man#s word against another, but the FA must have positive evidence that Suarez said what he is alleged to have said. The difficulty we have is that at this moment in time, the FA haven't released this evidence and until they do I'm going to keep my powder dry.

They must have evidence, mustn't they? Even though the refereee and no other player on the pitch supported Evra's case? So what can this evidence be?

Statement released by the players a few minutes ago:

LFC Players Statement

[Snakebauer007]

He's been charged with a crime that has a maximum punishment of a £2,500 fine. This is the legal equivalent of a speeding ticket.

It remains to be seen what the FA does. They put their investigation on hold until this ruling. Will they restart it, or wait for the trial to conclude?

EDIT: Terry's court case is scheduled for February 1st. I doubt the FA will do anything until then.

The situations are quite different though. In one you have a player accusing another player of a remark made to him. In the other, supposedly the player didn't even lodge the complaint, a fan did. That said would I be shocked Terry did something else that makes him an asshole(but worse this time)? No. Just like the biter calling someone a racial remark to piss them off doesn't surprise me. Good athletes, bad people.

[SoxFanInCali]

The situations are quite different though. In one you have a player accusing another player of a remark made to him. In the other, supposedly the player didn't even lodge the complaint, a fan did. That said would I be shocked Terry did something else that makes him an asshole(but worse this time)? No. Just like the biter calling someone a racial remark to piss them off doesn't surprise me. Good athletes, bad people.

I was just responding to Zomp when he suggested that Terry could get the same punishment as Suarez. Terry's situation isn't even going through the FA at this point, but through the courts. I doubt that the FA will touch the case while a criminal investigation is going on, so any possible suspension would likely be months away.

Not to minimize the seriousness of racism, but the way the Terry case is playing out through the justice system is bizarre to me. Can you really be charged with a crime in the UK just for saying something racist?

[Royal Reader]

I was just responding to Zomp when he suggested that Terry could get the same punishment as Suarez. Terry's situation isn't even going through the FA at this point, but through the courts. I doubt that the FA will touch the case while a criminal investigation is going on, so any possible suspension would likely be months away.

Not to minimize the seriousness of racism, but the way the Terry case is playing out through the justice system is bizarre to me. Can you really be charged with a crime in the UK just for saying something racist?

Sadly, yes. The intro to the wikipedia article on the UK hate speech laws sum it up:

Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom are found in several statutes. Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, or sexual orientation is forbidden.[1][2][3] Any communication which is threatening, abusive or insulting, and is intended to harass, alarm, or distress someone is forbidden.[4] The penalties for hate speech include fines, imprisonment, or both.[5]

Bolding is mine. I'd guess it was considered worthy of prosecution because it was considered an attempt to harrass Ferdinand.

The most controversial application of UK hate speech laws is probably Christians getting arrested for saying that homosexuality is a sin/abomination. I mean, it's unpleasant, but it IS in the Bible. Seems to me to be an overreach when religious individuals can't directly quote their sacred texts in public.

[PedroSpecialK]

The most controversial application of UK hate speech laws is probably Christians getting arrested for saying that homosexuality is a sin/abomination. I mean, it's unpleasant, but it IS in the Bible. Seems to me to be an overreach when religious individuals can't directly quote their sacred texts in public.

Apologies for going a bit V&N here, but that's awesome.

Edited by PedroSpecialK, 21 December 2011 - 07:02 PM.

[fletcherpost]

Alan Hansen and Lee Dixon were just talking about this on MOTD . Hansen said among other things, that Suarez must have admitted to saying something [with racial connotations] as it could only be one word against another. He's obviously very close to Kenny, so his words have a bit of weight, but regardless it's about the only way this could have gone down without any recorded evidence, visual or audio.

The precedent has been set. Personally think less games more money, give the money to some anti racism charity. Four games 100K, try and make something positive out of this, as played it's all a bit messy especially with the Terry Case coming up.

[Royal Reader]

It probably ends up getting reduced to five or so on appeal. FA probably set the initial punishment at eight so that once Liverpool appeal, it's still a stiff punishment.

[SoxFanInCali]

Alan Hansen and Lee Dixon were just talking about this on MOTD . Hansen said among other things, that Suarez must have admitted to saying something [with racial connotations] as it could only be one word against another. He's obviously very close to Kenny, so his words have a bit of weight, but regardless it's about the only way this could have gone down without any recorded evidence, visual or audio.

If that's true, there couldn't be a better argument for what Suarez's intentions were. He told them what he said, because he truly didn't think it had any racial connotations and felt he had nothing to hide.

The lesson for players going forward is to simply deny everything, and you won't be punished unless someone catches you clearly on audio/video.

[Vinho Tinto]

The lesson for players going forward is to simply deny everything.....

Going forward? I would have that sentiment written in Latin for my family crest. There's never been a point in my life where I didn't know that the best option was to deny everything - even in the blatant face of truth .

Welcome to my world, Luis Suarez.

[Snakebauer007]

Sadly, yes. The intro to the wikipedia article on the UK hate speech laws sum it up:



Bolding is mine. I'd guess it was considered worthy of prosecution because it was considered an attempt to harrass Ferdinand.

The most controversial application of UK hate speech laws is probably Christians getting arrested for saying that homosexuality is a sin/abomination. I mean, it's unpleasant, but it IS in the Bible. Seems to me to be an overreach when religious individuals can't directly quote their sacred texts in public.

I wouldn't say so, books shouldn't give you the right to be hateful

[LondonSox]

This (and for the record I'm neither a suarez nor Liverpool fan) is insane. There are vast amounts of racist behaviour in football. It is a sport full of undereducated thugs and there are plenty of known racist players. Suarez is maybe another but maybe because the evidence is poor. If the english players were held to this standard then fine, and frankly do that because its needed. John terry is pretty openly racist (a number of people I know have met have repeatedly) and there are several examples of seeing him on tape using the n word. This guy is apparently fine to be an England captain. I hate the way this sport is governed. I hate diving and I hate the dual standard political bullshit.

[Snakebauer007]

John terry is pretty openly racist (a number of people I know have met have repeatedly) and there are several examples of seeing him on tape using the n word.

I don't think any of this is factual in the least

[Apisith]

LFC embarrassed themselves with that Suarez shirt last night. He's been found guilty of using racist language and your instinct is that it's fine because he's an excellent player. They just demeaned the whole Kick It Out campaign.

Suarez admitted he used the word negrito. The only question is whether using this word in his context was racially offensive or not. True, it is a word that isn't offensive when used with your mates, but when you use it against a Black footballer playing for your most hated rivals, I'm pretty sure he wasn't using it as an affectionate term. It's the equivalent of calling your close black friend 'nigga'. It's fine if you're best buds but when you use it to a stranger, they'll obviously take it a whole another way.

And this is ignoring the fact that he's lived in Europe for three years, is learning English and that the English FA - more than any other FA - take racism seriously.

The eight matches is thoroughly deserved. Bear in mind that any fan who gets found guilty of racism gets a THREE YEAR ban from all footballing grounds. What Suarez got was pretty light in that context. I expect Terry to get worse, and he most likely won't be going to the Euros.

The fact that Suarez is a cunt in general just makes this sweeter. But let's not make it as an FA vs Liverpool thing. I know Scousers in general have a me vs the world thing going on, but have some perspective, consider the context of hooliganism/racism in the history of English football and you'll see that the FA have made a sound decision in punishing Suarez this severely.

[Apisith]

Alan Hansen and Lee Dixon were just talking about this on MOTD . Hansen said among other things, that Suarez must have admitted to saying something [with racial connotations] as it could only be one word against another. He's obviously very close to Kenny, so his words have a bit of weight, but regardless it's about the only way this could have gone down without any recorded evidence, visual or audio.

The precedent has been set. Personally think less games more money, give the money to some anti racism charity. Four games 100K, try and make something positive out of this, as played it's all a bit messy especially with the Terry Case coming up.

£100k is nothing. It's 2% of their yearly earnings. It's meaningless.

Games hurt. It hurts the player and it hurts the club. As it should.

Games, not money, is where all punishment of this nature should lie.

[Apisith]

The best thing is that Suarez will get another couple of matches for showing the middle finger to Fulham fans, which will be, again, fully deserved. Cunt.

[Apisith]

The other context is the world footballing one where Blatter just came out with those nonsense remarks about players needing to get on with it. Then a few years back you have FIFA failing to punish Aragones for calling Henry a black cunt and failing to punish the Spaniards for making monkey noises at black English players when they were at the Bernabeu for a friendly. The FA have always taken racism seriously, so now that they have a chance to stamp it out and make an example out of a player, of course the punishment is going to be severe. If John Terry is found guilty then he'll get the book thrown at him too, added on to whatever jail time he'll get if he's found guilty.

I don't want to talk about the FA and their hypocrisy in other matters. It's irrelevant. What matters is the context of this decision, and any reasonable person will see that Suarez fully deserved it and the FA's reaction is nothing extraordinary. It's actually par for the course.

[PedroSpecialK]

The best thing is that Suarez will get another couple of matches for showing the middle finger to Fulham fans, which will be, again, fully deserved. Cunt.

Tell us how you really feel

[Apisith]

It's funny that Suarez's defence is that his grandfather is Black

'I can't be racist, look at all the black friends I have'

I'm aware that the term 'negrito' is merely descriptive. It means 'little black man'. But like I said, it's the context that it was used it, and given Suarez's well-documented history, the FA have probably come to the right decision in deeming it a racist offence. Then, it's a matter of the severity of punishment, and as I've explained, this type of punishment fits in very well with what the FA have done and said in the history. English football doesn't have a good history with this, but they used very drastic measures (such as three year bannings) to eradicate the problem, so the severity of Suarez's punishment fits in very well.

Which is sweet. Because he's a cunt.

And for all the Liverpool fans out there thinking that the FA have gone mad, look at everyone else's reaction and for your sake, develop some perspective. Please. It's you who have gone mental with this t-shirt, boycott (RAWK nonsense) etc. schemes.

Dalglish has been an embarrassment.

In a related case, Terry's defence is also that he has loads of black friends

Being a racist and committing a racist offence isn't the same thing. The FA have rightly punished Suarez for the latter.

[Apisith]

They did not, however, find that he was or is "a racist". "Racist", of course, is a hopelessly vague term that embraces from Top Gear presenters right through to the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan; people who laugh at the jokes of Jim Davidson to people who believe, deep down, that all black people should be rounded up and exterminated. It's not a black and white term, and that is why the FA did not look into Suárez's soul, weigh it, and find him wanting, and nor did they attempt to. They found that he "used insulting words towards Mr Evra," and further that those words "included a reference to Mr Evra's colour".

And this is the really interesting thing about the statement issued by Liverpool as a response to the findings. Apart from the inaccuracies, contradictions, insults, and insinuations of institutional bias — on which more here and here – the most obviously comic passage is the two paragraphs that detail Suárez's own genealogy, charity work, and conclude by actually pointing out that he has black friends. If they'd thrown in a reference to the work of Mr Sidney Poitier, we could have completed our "I Can't Be A Racist" bingo cards.

Comic, yet also strange. Suárez was not being called to task for his character, bur for his actions. By seeking so assiduously to defend his character, therefore, LFC's statement is neatly in line with the generally-presumed narrative, which is that he used a word that could be pejorative — "negro", "negrito", or some such — but didn't mean it pejoratively. Which, when you look at the FA's statement, isn't quite the point: they have found that he used insulting language, and that it included a reference to his colour. Whether or not you think somebody that uses/used insulting language with reference to colour is a racist is up to you; the FA have determined that its use in this instance broke their disciplinary codes. The argument that if somebody isn't racist in general, then what they say can't be racial abuse, has been rejected.

http://www.surrealfo...ez-the-verdict/

Edited by Apisith, 22 December 2011 - 05:48 AM.

[Royal Reader]

I wonder if going forward, this would have any effect on black players' willingness to play for Liverpool. Probably not, but I think if I were a black player, I'd feel dubious about representing a club where the manager and fans rally around a guy who uses the n-word.

[Zomp]

I thought the T shirts were a little odd myself. Wear Kick Racism Out Of Football, or something of that nature. I get that players support one of their own but he was found guilty. I know some of the players on other teams didn't appreciate it on twitter.

[Zomp]

If that's true, there couldn't be a better argument for what Suarez's intentions were. He told them what he said, because he truly didn't think it had any racial connotations and felt he had nothing to hide.

Or he's just an idiot.

Seriously, not trolling here...but do you honestly think if he used "negrito" or "negro" to Evra after they got into a scuffle in the corner he was doing anything but trying to get under a player's skin? This is a player who hase shown he'll do whatever it takes to get his team victory (which is not necessarily a fault), whether it be faking injuries, diving, or deliberately getting a handball (which was a brilliant play). I don't think its far fetched that Suarez's defense was, "Yes, I used the term but I used it in a friendly manner" and the panel said, "Yeah...you're full of shit".

[PedroSpecialK]

I think Zomp's right, I don't share the outrage that many do with the fact that he was suspended - however, given what we know, I was surprised that the panel chose to rule so severely against him. The more I think about it, the more I see a 4-6 match ban and stiffer financial penalty as appropriate, but I would have liked to see a penalty levied against Evra as well given that he too admitted to using a derogatory term towards Suarez. So long as we're in the realm of elementary school morality, while racism isn't right, neither are two wrongs.

[MarkInLondon]

In a related case, Terry's defence is also that he has loads of black friends

He's also going to call Ashley Cole as a character witness.