50 replies to this topic

[nighthob]

They have been giving the Lakers a fierce rectal pounding tonight. Pau Gasol has sent out for the Tucks medicated pads. The Clippers are going to get very good very quickly. They may actually be contenders as is. And thanks to the Paul trade have cap space this summer to sign a shooting guard and more roleplayers. If they miss the title this year, they may be the best in the west next year.

[Mike in CT]

I just posted in the other thread a minute before this.

I apologize for saying they might not be as good as people think. They look like a title contender if DeAndre Jordan is this good.

That pick we own is going to suck.

[Tony C]

They have been giving the Lakers a fierce rectal pounding tonight. Pau Gasol has sent out for the Tucks medicated pads. The Clippers are going to get very good very quickly. They may actually be contenders as is. And thanks to the Paul trade have cap space this summer to sign a shooting guard and more roleplayers. If they miss the title this year, they may be the best in the west next year.

well...it was just the first exhibition game, but what the heck, far be it from me to douse enthusiasm. 2 questions, though -- I really doubt they want a shooting guard, given the depth they already have in the backcourt. Don't they want/need a back-up center and/or power forward? DeAndre Jordan can't play 40 minutes a game.

and a related question, per this quote from Billups:

"In my eyes, we are probably going to be starting two point guards," Billups said. "Not a point guard and a shooting guard. I'm a lead guard and a playmaker, so is Chris. I think that we are going to cause a lot of teams a lot of problems."

That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to play off guard -- is this something they can pull off? Billups is 6'2 or 6'3, so I suppose he'll have the size. Add in Mo Williams who definitely doesn't have the size (6'1 and much more slight) to play off guard. And that's not even to mention Bledsoe coming back in a month or whatever. Any trade possibilities for Williams or Bledsoe?

[soxhop411]

Finally! all the years of being a Clippers fan has payed off!

[Jed Zeppelin]

well...it was just the first exhibition game, but what the heck, far be it from me to douse enthusiasm. 2 questions, though -- I really doubt they want a shooting guard, given the depth they already have in the backcourt. Don't they want/need a back-up center and/or power forward? DeAndre Jordan can't play 40 minutes a game.

It would be funny/awesome/terrible if the Clippers signed Ray to be their 2 and KG to be their primary bench big next summer. Ray will genuinely be the top pure SG on the market. Then try and swing a trade with Mo Williams' palatable expiring contract for a more necessary piece and go into 2012 with

CP3/Bledsoe
Ray/Mo trade
Butler/Mo trade
Griffin/KG
Jordan/KG

[Mike in CT]

[Cellar-Door]

well...it was just the first exhibition game, but what the heck, far be it from me to douse enthusiasm. 2 questions, though -- I really doubt they want a shooting guard, given the depth they already have in the backcourt. Don't they want/need a back-up center and/or power forward? DeAndre Jordan can't play 40 minutes a game.

and a related question, per this quote from Billups:



That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to play off guard -- is this something they can pull off? Billups is 6'2 or 6'3, so I suppose he'll have the size. Add in Mo Williams who definitely doesn't have the size (6'1 and much more slight) to play off guard. And that's not even to mention Bledsoe coming back in a month or whatever. Any trade possibilities for Williams or Bledsoe?

I think Williams makes sense for basically any team that needs a PG, he's pretty decent and his deal is solid, 1 yr $8.5M with a player option for the same. However I think they want to keep him since they really seem to plan on starting billups and Paul together, so until Bledsoe gets back they probably like him better as the backup than Foye.

Hmm I was playing around in trade machine and it was harder than I thought, Clips are only moving him for a rotation big man or a big SG, and the teams that need him the most (lakers, Heat, Hawks, Knicks) have nothing to offer.
One deal I like is Williams to Detroit for Charlie Villanueva
WIlliams to WAS for Turiaf (maybe with a second?) would make sense.
I guess to Utah for Okur works as well, if the Clips are desperate for a big man.

[nighthob]

well...it was just the first exhibition game, but what the heck, far be it from me to douse enthusiasm. 2 questions, though -- I really doubt they want a shooting guard, given the depth they already have in the backcourt. Don't they want/need a back-up center and/or power forward? DeAndre Jordan can't play 40 minutes a game.

The Clippers have their all stars, they aren't in the market for one of those. They do need a long-term starter at the 2 though as Chaunce is getting up there in years and Randy Foye (if they elect to keep him) is far better as a combo guard off the bench than as a starting 2 guard. Travis Leslie might be the answer, then again he might be nothing more than a depth charge.

In any event, they need a starting 2 and some more bench depth, and given the reality of ring-chasing there's little sense in overpaying for depth players. You don't need an NBA-starter level player as your backup center, but is does help to have NBA-starter level players in your actual starting lineup. (I mean, for what they need out of the 2 spot Courtney Lee would work.)

That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to play off guard -- is this something they can pull off?

In a normal year I might be inclined to agree with you that Billups and Paul might give off a little friction. However, allow me to introduce you to the 2012 NBA schedule. Over the next 16 weeks NBA teams will play a 66 game season, or an average of more than 4 games per week. It's going to be hell on wheels, especially for the older/injury prone teams like Boston and LA (EDIT: Just to forestall the usual suspects, I'm talking about the Lakers here.).

The Clippers have one goal this year, reach the playoffs with Chris Paul healthy and rested enough to put them in contention. So for this year, having an above average combo guard to take over the lead guard chores for 15-20 minutes a game is a huge advantage for them. Though I feel dirty typing this, the Clippers management was thinking in advance here. You get this squad into the postseason healthy with CP3 ready to go and they're legitimate contenders.

Edited by nighthob, 20 December 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[RedOctober3829]

Kris Humperies would be a perfect backup player for them. I think the Nets still own his rights though.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I think Williams makes sense for basically any team that needs a PG, he's pretty decent and his deal is solid, 1 yr $8.5M with a player option for the same. However I think they want to keep him since they really seem to plan on starting billups and Paul together, so until Bledsoe gets back they probably like him better as the backup than Foye.

Hmm I was playing around in trade machine and it was harder than I thought, Clips are only moving him for a rotation big man or a big SG, and the teams that need him the most (lakers, Heat, Hawks, Knicks) have nothing to offer.
One deal I like is Williams to Detroit for Charlie Villanueva
WIlliams to WAS for Turiaf (maybe with a second?) would make sense.
I guess to Utah for Okur works as well, if the Clips are desperate for a big man.

Unfortunately, Detroit's got enough shoot first guards with Gordon, Stuckey, and now Brandon Knight. So I don't think they have much interest in Williams.

Likewise, Washington's got plenty of scoring at the 2 guard spot with Jordan Crawford and Nick Young, and they aren't gonna pay 8.5 million dollars for a guy to backup Wall.

And Utah's gonna be awful, and have 2 young back up guards in Alec Burks and Gordon Haywood that they'd rather not pay 8.5 million dollars to take minutes away from.

I looked around too, and Williams isn't much of an asset to many teams. The answer for the Clips as far as a backup big goes may just be waiting on Kenyon Martin.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

A couple of questions for those in the "the Clippers are title contenders" camp:

1. When was the last time a team won an NBA title without a single capable wing defender on their roster? Caron Butler is pretty lackluster in that area, and beyond him the best wing defender they have is. . .Randy Foye? Ryan Gomes is terrible defensively, particularly on the wing, and tends to be better as a small 4.

2. It's been addressed, but they don't have a single NBA caliber backup big man, unless Trey Thompkins surprises people.

3. Blake Griffin still isn't ready to be the go-to scorer on an NBA title team. He struggles to create his own shot, doesn't have a refined post game yet, and is a bad free throw shooter.

4. Vinny Del Negro?

I love the pieces they have there as much as anybody, but the idea that they're an instant title contender is overstating things a bit.

[nighthob]

A couple of questions for those in the "the Clippers are title contenders" camp:

1. When was the last time a team won an NBA title without a single capable wing defender on their roster? Caron Butler is pretty lackluster in that area, and beyond him the best wing defender they have is. . .Randy Foye? Ryan Gomes is terrible defensively, particularly on the wing, and tends to be better as a small 4.

2. It's been addressed, but they don't have a single NBA caliber backup big man, unless Trey Thompkins surprises people.

3. Blake Griffin still isn't ready to be the go-to scorer on an NBA title team. He struggles to create his own shot, doesn't have a refined post game yet, and is a bad free throw shooter.

4. Vinny Del Negro?

I love the pieces they have there as much as anybody, but the idea that they're an instant title contender is overstating things a bit.

A gigantic part of perimeter defense is what's sitting behind the perimeter defenders. So long as Jordan plays like a wrecking crew the guys in front of him can cheat, which makes them more effective (cf Rondo). A big part of this will be how much Griffin commits himself on the defensive end, obviously.

But, seriously, look at the reigning NBA champs, their starting 2 guard was the calcified Jason Kidd and their starting small forward was a guy who was allegedly washed up as a defender two years ago. But having Tyson Chandler sealing off the paint allowed both guys to look a lot better than they actually were (and that's one of the problems the Mavs face for the coming season.) Marion didn't look anything like this good in Miami or Toronto. In fact he looked so washed up that the Simmonses of the world were crowing that Marion was a creation of Steve Nash. But the simple truth is that it's a lot harder to be a top perimeter defender when it's you and nothing rather than you and the guys at your back.

So, are the Clippers contenders? Abso-frigging-lutely. Have a look at the rest of the West. Dallas lost its best interior defender and is replacing him with a fat sloth and another weakside help defender. The Lakers looked old last year, without the hellacious schedule. The 30 year old Gasol was eerily like the 35 year old Garnett. And now he's a year older and about to play the schedule from hell. Unless you think the Thunder and Grizzlies are in some other universe from the rest of the west then the Clippers absolutely deserve their mentions as a team with a top 5 player in his prime, the depth to not overplay him during a compressed schedule and the horses around him. They certainly have a far better shot at winning a title than the Celtics do at winning more than one playoff series.

[swingin val]

3. Blake Griffin still isn't ready to be the go-to scorer on an NBA title team. He struggles to create his own shot, doesn't have a refined post game yet, and is a bad free throw shooter.

They dont need him to create his own shot with Chris Paul in the fold

[Cellar-Door]

A couple of questions for those in the "the Clippers are title contenders" camp:

1. When was the last time a team won an NBA title without a single capable wing defender on their roster? Caron Butler is pretty lackluster in that area, and beyond him the best wing defender they have is. . .Randy Foye? Ryan Gomes is terrible defensively, particularly on the wing, and tends to be better as a small 4.

2. It's been addressed, but they don't have a single NBA caliber backup big man, unless Trey Thompkins surprises people.

3. Blake Griffin still isn't ready to be the go-to scorer on an NBA title team. He struggles to create his own shot, doesn't have a refined post game yet, and is a bad free throw shooter.

4. Vinny Del Negro?

I love the pieces they have there as much as anybody, but the idea that they're an instant title contender is overstating things a bit.

Some good points, but remember they have cap space, trade assets and roster space, I don't think the roster you see now is the one they have come March.
Guys available now who might help:
Defensive wings: Deshawn Stevenson, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Andrei Kirilenko.
Backup Bigmen- Humphries, Reggie Evans, Francisco Elson,
Optionally they could wait until March and look at JR Smith, or Wilson Chandler (he's restricted so I assume Denver would match),
I thought Vujacic would be a great fit, but apparently he can't get out of Turkey until next season.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

A gigantic part of perimeter defense is what's sitting behind the perimeter defenders. So long as Jordan plays like a wrecking crew the guys in front of him can cheat, which makes them more effective (cf Rondo). A big part of this will be how much Griffin commits himself on the defensive end, obviously.

But, seriously, look at the reigning NBA champs, their starting 2 guard was the calcified Jason Kidd and their starting small forward was a guy who was allegedly washed up as a defender two years ago. But having Tyson Chandler sealing off the paint allowed both guys to look a lot better than they actually were (and that's one of the problems the Mavs face for the coming season.) Marion didn't look anything like this good in Miami or Toronto. In fact he looked so washed up that the Simmonses of the world were crowing that Marion was a creation of Steve Nash. But the simple truth is that it's a lot harder to be a top perimeter defender when it's you and nothing rather than you and the guys at your back.

So, are the Clippers contenders? Abso-frigging-lutely. Have a look at the rest of the West. Dallas lost its best interior defender and is replacing him with a fat sloth and another weakside help defender. The Lakers looked old last year, without the hellacious schedule. The 30 year old Gasol was eerily like the 35 year old Garnett. And now he's a year older and about to play the schedule from hell. Unless you think the Thunder and Grizzlies are in some other universe from the rest of the west then the Clippers absolutely deserve their mentions as a team with a top 5 player in his prime, the depth to not overplay him during a compressed schedule and the horses around him. They certainly have a far better shot at winning a title than the Celtics do at winning more than one playoff series.

I agree with the premise re: Chandler and how an excellent post defender controlling the paint improves perimeter defenders, but I have a hard time believing that DeAndre Jordan has become that guy during the course of a single off-season. He's obviously got the physical ability, but he doesn't seem to get it yet. Despite his shot blocking skills, he's actually not a very good weakside help defender, and doesn't read plays well enough to get over and help as often as he should. In the limited time he was on the court last year, he had trouble making a consistent effort on defense, and according to synergy numbers, the Clippers were a better defensive team last year when he wasn't on the floor. Likewise, Griffin didn't commit much on the defensive end, either. They both certainly have the talent to be great defenders, but they haven't shown that they are yet, and I think Jordan's shot blocking ability and the fact that he has the physical potential to be Tyson Chandler are distracting people from the fact that he hasn't even really come close to that yet.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 20 December 2011 - 02:10 PM.

[Tony C]

I've always thought of Butler as a plus defender, though coming off his knee injury maybe that won't remain the case. I do think Butler is a real key for the Clippers this year -- I've always loved him, and he's a terrific spot-up shooter.

In any case, apparently the Clippers are signing Reggie Evans as their back-up big -- nice signing, 11.5 rebounds in 25 minutes a game last year. My guess is that does it for them until March.

I appreciate the argument that Chris Paul will be rested due to all the PG depth, but it still seems confusing to me:

PG: Paul, Billups, Mo Williams, Eric Bledsoe
SG: Billups, Foye, Travis Leslie
SF: Butler, Gomes, Cook
PF: Griffin, Evans, Cook, T Thompkins
C: Jordan (and I guess the 6'8 Evans?)

The depth is terrific -- they'll likely be playing 10 guys every night, 11 once Bledsoe is back...I still don't see where his minutes or Mo Williams' minutes will come, but I guess that's both a luxury and opens up trade possibilities. Personally if there's buzz about him I'd trade Bledsoe before he comes back - super athletic but I'm not sure he has the skills to become a top flight player. Maybe to Minny?

[swingin val]

Personally if there's buzz about him I'd trade Bledsoe before he comes back - super athletic but I'm not sure he has the skills to become a top flight player. Maybe to Minny?

Minny has 3 point guards on their roster already (Rubio, Barea and Ridnour)

[Tony C]

(yeah, it was a lame attempt at a joke)

[dolomite133]

So I'm guessing they still have one roster spot open and will pick up a scrub center to bang inside and maybe rebound?

Edited by dolomite133, 21 December 2011 - 01:31 AM.

[ElUno20]

Any real clipper fan is still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

But while we wait...

Evans is exactly the type of backup big they needed.

Those guys I hated so much last year I now love off the bench, foye and gomes. Mo off the bench is going to be great as well.

Other than health, defense is going to determine the season. Other than DJ they don't start anyone who has any semblance of a defensive mind set. Billups is ancient and steals does not always mean you're playing defense so that backcourt makes me extremely nervous.

Also Blake made no effort on that end last year, primarily due to him realizing.he needed to.stay out of foul trouble but still he was pretty.awful and disinterested.

Still though. The team looks scary good. Wish I could enjoy it but I'm.waiting for the first injury.

[Brickowski]

The Clips have too many guards, not enough big people. I'm not going to call them "scary good" based on one pre-season win. Let's see how the pieces fit together.

[nighthob]

Any real clipper fan is still waiting for the other shoe to drop. ...

The team looks scary good. Wish I could enjoy it but I'm waiting for the first injury.

So are most real Celtics fans.

[ElUno20]

Blake turns in one of the laziest performances I've seen. Zero effort to rebound and even less to defend.

Billups kept them in it and cp3 just killed them down the stretch. Nice to have a star.

[Sheets]

Blake turns in one of the laziest performances I've seen. Zero effort to rebound and even less to defend.

Billups kept them in it and cp3 just killed them down the stretch. Nice to have a star.

Agreed about Blake- he was cherry picking on some plays when he could have been going for rebounds. DeAndre's 8 blocks were impressive.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Blake turns in one of the laziest performances I've seen. Zero effort to rebound and even less to defend.

Billups kept them in it and cp3 just killed them down the stretch. Nice to have a star.

I was at the game and a few things should be noted.

First, David Lee, and to a lesser extent, Biedrins did an outstanding job on Griffin. They defended him aggressively (to the point where Lee got into foul trouble) and generally made life miserable for Blake. That said, the Clips didn't need Griffin to go off because Chauncey Billups was his usual consistent 35 year old self and while CP3 looked out of sorts for most of the game, he came on in the end.

Those who watched the game saw Mark Jackson employ the hack-a-DeAndre strategy but while FTs aren't his strength, the guy was a defensive force tonight with eight blocks. But the rest of the team played pretty well defensively, forcing the Warriors to turn the ball over 16 times. Of course, it didn't help that Golden State's two best players looked awful shooting tonight.

I will say this, I hate flopping, annoying Mo Williams with the heat of a thousand Phoenix suns but that fucking bitch may turn out to be a great bench addition to go alongside Gomes, Foye and Brian Cook who sunk two big treys in the game.

The Clips are definitely impressive but their chemistry will be interesting to watch because its still a bit weird to see CP3 and Billups in the same backcourt. And while David Lee may be underrated here, the fact that he gave Blake Griffin a hard time isn't encouraging.

I have more thoughts on Golden State (what a weird roster) but I'll save that for Sam Ray Not's Warriors thread...if he ever gets around to it.

[Tony C]

Yeah, I just watched bits and pieces of the game, but two follow-ups to your comments:

-Mo Williams is a really good player and if happy coming off the bench will be terrific in that role
-the 3-headed point guard monster is not a happy thing. Williams doesn't look pleased to have CP3 take the lead and when CP3 was on the bench Williams and Billups were definitely in a tussle to be lead dog. Both hoisted up some very hurried shots when they got their hands on the ball.

Maybe that's just a matter of a bit of time and working things out.

[ElUno20]

Clipps play zero defense. All that top four talk should have waited for the season to start because this team kinda stinks. They haven't played since Sunday and are getting laughed off the court.

Edited by ElUno20, 28 December 2011 - 10:15 PM.

[ElUno20]

It amazes me how these "smart" basketball people refuse to see the sole problem with this team which is Blake Griffin being a complete joke on the defensive end. Bill Simmons and all the other idiots are quick to scream about VDN but Blake is the face of the franchise and is a complete layup line. What do you think that instills in the rest of the team ?

[Mike in CT]

Chris Paul injured his hamstring, just as the Clips were stomping the Lakers.

Out of the game.

[dolomite133]

Thoughts on K-Mart? Seems like a pretty important signing.

[mandro ramtinez]

K-Mart is a good fit for them. When Griffin, Jordan and Martin are on the floor together, they will gobble up rebounds. When Martin and Griffin are out there together, Martin can take the tougher defensive assignment and relieve some of the pressure on Griffin on the defensive end. Plus Martin is a tough mofo and that is usually a necessary asset in the playoffs.

[Sheets]

DeAndre vs. Dwight Monday night is going to be fun to watch. It'll be a good measuring stick for DeAndre.

[Hendu's Gait]

Blake Griffin with an interesting line tonight v. the Wiz.

10/14 from the field, 1/7 from the line, 8 assists, +34.

[ElUno20]

As bad as he's played this year, the last 3-4 games there has been a clear difference in his approach to the defensive end of the floor. Too small of a sample size to get excited about but I think he may be starting to realize his athletic ability can be used on both sides of the court.

[ElUno20]

Billups just tore his Achilles on a play no one was within ten feet of him. Season and likely career over.

[Statman]

That's too bad about Billups.

The jinx of the clippers continues!

[Kutcher Era Youth]

Clipps just lost to the Cavs minus Kyrie Irving. I really hope losing Billups sends them into a funk, implausible as it seems....

[jon abbey]

If they get JR Smith to replace him, it could end up being an upgrade, since I think Smith is a better fit next to Paul and Mo Williams in a 3 guard rotation than Billups.

[Tony C]

I see the logic of what you're saying, but just really impressed by Billups this year. He's tough, solid on both sides, and would have been money in the playoffs. In any case, not sure about better, but Smith is more of a classic 2 guard so in that sense a good fit.

In any case, latest reports have Smith going to the Knicks.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Billups going down has people searching for a good shooting 2 for the Clippers, but their biggest weakness is still perimeter defense. If I were them, I'd look to package Eric Bledsoe + for Trevor Ariza. They need an athletic wing who can defend the likes of Durant and Kobe come playoff time.

[jon abbey]

Billups going down has people searching for a good shooting 2 for the Clippers, but their biggest weakness is still perimeter defense. If I were them, I'd look to package Eric Bledsoe + for Trevor Ariza. They need an athletic wing who can defend the likes of Durant and Kobe come playoff time.

Caron Butler doesn't fit this description?

Simmons had them moving Bledsoe+ for Ray Allen earlier today, that might make sense both ways.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Caron Butler doesn't fit this description?

Simmons had them moving Bledsoe+ for Ray Allen earlier today, that might make sense both ways.

I think he did at one point in his career, but he's looked slow to me so far this year. Maybe he plays himself back into shape though.

[ElUno20]

Butler has had an excellent year. No way he gets moved.

[Tony C]

yes, but I think he could play a few fewer minutes as he seems to wear down. in any case, the deal Simmons proposes has Bledsoe as the centerpiece for Allen. I understand the logic from the Celtics side, but still can't imagine Ainge would take it seriously -- has to be better out there for Ray Allen.

I have to say, though, Ray Allen or someone who brings much of what he brings is precisely what this club needs. I'm impressed by how the defensive intensity has increased and think del Negro isn't nearly as bad as others say. A simple offense, yes, but he more or less pushes the right buttons -- I like, for example, giving Foye the starting SG role over Williams (even as I'd like to see a trade to upgrade Foye). Keeps Williams as a terrific sub both at PG and SG.

[kazuneko]

It amazes me how these "smart" basketball people refuse to see the sole problem with this team which is Blake Griffin being a complete joke on the defensive end. Bill Simmons and all the other idiots are quick to scream about VDN but Blake is the face of the franchise and is a complete layup line.

Which is why he is a vastly inferior player to Dwight Howard - and why if the Clips are serious about winning they will offer him in a trade for the Orlando center.
The numbers match (if you throw in Gomes and Foye), and its a deal that would not only perfectly address both teams needs (Griffin may not be as good as Howard but he is as close to equal value as Orlando can hope to get) but also matches up with what Howard is seeking (a trade to a big-market, warm weather team with a chance to compete).
I don't know. Maybe the Clips are just happy to be relevant. If they really want more than that -to compete for a championship and make the Lakers the town's second team - they need to get Howard....

Edited by kazuneko, 18 February 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[ElUno20]

It's going to be great watching some team that doesn't have Ryan gomes inbounding beat the spurs in the first round.

[ElUno20]

Clipps will not make the playoffs without a trade. Period. 3/5 of their starting lineup is completely inept. And it's not a "funk" they are just incapable of getting it done. Anyone who can score 10, that's right only TEN, points per game please call Olshey at your earliest convenience.

[nighthob]

Clipps will not make the playoffs without a trade. Period. 3/5 of their starting lineup is completely inept. And it's not a "funk" they are just incapable of getting it done. Anyone who can score 10, that's right only TEN, points per game please call Olshey at your earliest convenience.

Cocktease.

[ElUno20]

And the Cp3 choke tour continues, after he handed the wolves a win on monday he does the same.for the nets today. It drives me crazy that morons like Simmons are screaming for VDN job, stop being lazy and watch an actual game. It's not coaching.

[ElUno20]

Always easier to replace 1 coach than 12 players. He's lost the team, whoever that is on (personally I pin it on Blake's joke of a 2nd season) it doesn't matter. It has to be done.