2131 replies to this topic

[Euclis20]

Peyton Manning's rookie year he had a completion pct of 56.7 with 28 picks for a QB rating of 71.2. Go check out Brees' first full season. Hell, look at Joe Montana's rookie year. Not so impressive. Better completion pct numbers but way more picks and of course no running game like Tebow's.

Tebow this year has a lousy completion pct, but he's taking care of the ball, and his running ability is an added dimension for the offense. Everyone seems to think what they see is what they get w/Tebow. It takes years for most QBs to develop. Why is Tebow held to a different standard? If given the chance, my guess is he will improve his accuracy and be a tough guy to sack or intercept, and he'll make plays with his legs. That would make him more valuable than many nfl QBs (kolb, Sanchez, henne/Moore, Fitzpatrick, Cassel, flacco, McCoy, freeman, Bradford, cutler...to name a few)

Yeah, I'd say Montana had a better completion percentage in his first full season. HE LEAD THE LEAGUE.

Manning's completion percentage was exactly league average his rookie year (56.6% in 1998.). Again, Tebow is last in the league. Not a comparison.

Brees completed 60.8% of passes his first full season. Again, better than league average (59.6% in 2002).

So, for the three QBs you mentioned, they ranged from exactly league average to best in the league? What was the point? For the record, the completion percentage this season is 60.2%. If the scale was flipped, and Tebow was averaging 12% above league average instead of 12% below, he'd be leading the league (just ahead of Brees), and on pace for a record. Since the opposite is true, I'll leave you with this: Tebow's completion % combined with his scouting report paint a pretty clear picture of an historically innacurate passer. You don't do him any favors comparing him to a trio of HOFers (including 2 of the all time best), but there isn't some long history of successful QBs starting off their careers by being the least accurate passers in the league.

[lexrageorge]

Speaking of "coulda shouldas," what did people think about BB's decision not to challenge the Hernandez catch in the end zone? I was pretty shocked to see him just kick the FG, thought there was a decent chance that play would get overruled and was surprised that a coach who sometimes challenges spots wouldn't role the dice with at least 4 points on the line.

The replay seemed to support the official's call. The ball looked as if it went through Hernandez' hands and then was trapped between the ground and his body. At the very least, it probably wasn't enough evidence to overturn.

[tims4wins]

Speaking of "coulda shouldas," what did people think about BB's decision not to challenge the Hernandez catch in the end zone? I was pretty shocked to see him just kick the FG, thought there was a decent chance that play would get overruled and was surprised that a coach who sometimes challenges spots wouldn't role the dice with at least 4 points on the line.

I was more pissed that he didn't use a challenge before the 4th and 1 play where they called timeout and then ran the play fake and threw to Hernandez for 25 yards. The spot on the previous play was very questionable, and if they were going to use a timeout anyway (since the play clock was winding down), they should have thrown the red flag. Worst case scenario, you lose a challenge. Best case scenario, you don't lose a timeout and pick up the first down. I thought it was poor game management by BB.

Edited by tims4wins, 19 December 2011 - 01:09 PM.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I don't know if this information is readily available but it seems to me that spots in that situation are rarely, if ever, overturned on replay. Too many bodies, never a good enough camera angle, generally inconclusive. It did look dumb that he didn't throw it when they used the timeout anyway. I'm glad neither of them ended up mattering at all. The 4th and 1 play call was brilliant.

[86spike]

You don't do him any favors comparing him to a trio of HOFers (including 2 of the all time best), but there isn't some long history of successful QBs starting off their careers by being the least accurate passers in the league.

Yeah, Elway had worse numbers than Tebow in his first season starting too... but no one should expect Tebow to have the same career.

I see Tebow's absolute upside is a Roethlisburger type career and his much more likely result is a Cordell Stewart type career. I think it's unlikely that he'll flame out and disappear next season, but I don't think he's going to be a 12 year starter. And I'm OK with that. Sure, everyone always wants their team to have a "Franchise QB", but the reality is there are only 5 or 6 of those guys in the league at any one given time, so you're more likely to not have one.

[loshjott]

No less an authority than James Harrison says Dumervil's sack of Tom Brady should have been flagged.

Link.

[ColoradoJack]

No less an authority than James Harrison says Dumervil's sack of Tom Brady should have been flagged.

Link.

There a couple of differences of which Mr Harrison should take note. First, Dumervil's hit is below the neck and above the knees. Second, Dumervil doesn't use the crown of his helmet, he doesn't duck at the last moment, the way Harrison did. Perfect hit.

As a side note, I really liked Brady's reaction, or should I say non-reaction, to the hit. Didn't bitch or point fingers. Just moved on to the next player.

[twibnotes]

Yeah, I'd say Montana had a better completion percentage in his first full season. HE LEAD THE LEAGUE.

Manning's completion percentage was exactly league average his rookie year (56.6% in 1998.). Again, Tebow is last in the league. Not a comparison.

Brees completed 60.8% of passes his first full season. Again, better than league average (59.6% in 2002).

So, for the three QBs you mentioned, they ranged from exactly league average to best in the league? What was the point? For the record, the completion percentage this season is 60.2%. If the scale was flipped, and Tebow was averaging 12% above league average instead of 12% below, he'd be leading the league (just ahead of Brees), and on pace for a record. Since the opposite is true, I'll leave you with this: Tebow's completion % combined with his scouting report paint a pretty clear picture of an historically innacurate passer. You don't do him any favors comparing him to a trio of HOFers (including 2 of the all time best), but there isn't some long history of successful QBs starting off their careers by being the least accurate passers in the league.

There are a couple points:

1) those QBs all improved significantly as they gained more experience, something Tebow could do as well

2) those QBs all could not match Tebow in terms of avoiding picks and extending/creating plays with their legs.

Not saying Tebow is going to be in their class. Just saying that he has some skills that add to his value and that his future as a passer is not already defined, just as it would have been wrong to conclude that Peyton Manning was going to be a failure bc he threw 28 picks as a rookie.

As for Tebow being a "historically inaccurate passer," take a look at his college stats next to Manning's. We scout And project QBs all the time based on their college performance. Why is Tebow different? Because he throws kind of funny?

[Dollar]

I was more pissed that he didn't use a challenge before the 4th and 1 play where they called timeout and then ran the play fake and threw to Hernandez for 25 yards. The spot on the previous play was very questionable, and if they were going to use a timeout anyway (since the play clock was winding down), they should have thrown the red flag. Worst case scenario, you lose a challenge. Best case scenario, you don't lose a timeout and pick up the first down. I thought it was poor game management by BB.

See, I disagree. I think too many people play the "if you were gonna use a timeout anyways..." card, when in reality a challenge is much more valuable than a 1st half timeout. It would be one thing if it were a huge play in the game (a pick-6, big fumble, touchdown catch, etc) that would completely change the complexion of the game. In that case, I'd agree with a challenge. But a 50/50 challenge on a 3rd and 1 spot, where you know the Pats will go for it on 4th down anyways, seems like way too big of a risk in that situation. Remember, had they challenged and failed, they would be left with one challenge the rest of the game, win or lose.

To me, you need to use that first challenge in either a 100% certain overturn situation, or a vital game-changing play. Burning a challenge on a less crucial play can come back to haunt you later in the game, especially with all the blown calls we've seen from the referees this season.

Edited by Dollar, 19 December 2011 - 03:57 PM.

[tims4wins]

I certainly understand and appreciate that argument, but in my opinion it was a big play in the game. Since the Pats picked up the 4th down conversion, it became moot, but what if, when Brady stumbled, he had fallen and the Broncos touched him down? Then the Broncos have the ball on their own 35-40 with about 3 minutes left in the half, only down by a point. The Pats are then looking at a potential deficit heading into the second half, instead of the 8 point lead that the TD led to. So I do think it was a game changing type of play. Hindsight shows that it worked out to save the challenge, since they picked up the 4th, but when that play occurred, we had no idea what would happen on 4th down.

[Euclis20]

There are a couple points:

1) those QBs all improved significantly as they gained more experience, something Tebow could do as well

2) those QBs all could not match Tebow in terms of avoiding picks and extending/creating plays with their legs.

Not saying Tebow is going to be in their class. Just saying that he has some skills that add to his value and that his future as a passer is not already defined, just as it would have been wrong to conclude that Peyton Manning was going to be a failure bc he threw 28 picks as a rookie.

As for Tebow being a "historically inaccurate passer," take a look at his college stats next to Manning's. We scout And project QBs all the time based on their college performance. Why is Tebow different? Because he throws kind of funny?

He could and will improve, that's for sure. He has to. One thing I didn't note before, not only is he last in the league right now, his 48.6% would be the worst in the last decade among qualified QBs. All this despite being in the most favorable environment that QBs have ever seen. His completion percentage is historically low. There isn't much disputing that.

Tebow is different because he's got a professional track record to go off of. And scouts. Which actually do matter. A funny throwing motion isn't the only reason people don't think much of his ability as a passer. Philip Rivers has a funny throwing motion and was extremely successful in college, and until this year, he was seen as one of the top QBs in the league over the last half decade.

QB success in college doesn't always mean QB success in the NFL. Here's a list of the top passers (by total yards) all time in college:

1. Timmy Chang, Hawaii: (2000-2004) 17,072 yards
2. Graham Harrell, Texas Tech (2005-2008)
3. Ty Detmer, BYU: (1988-91) 15,031
4. Colt Brennan, Hawaii: (2005-07) 14,193
5. Case Keenum, Houston: (2007-present) 13,586
6. Philip Rivers, North Carolina State: (2000-03) 13,484
7. Colt McCoy, Texas: (2004-2008) 12,253
8. Kevin Kolb, Houston: (2003-06) 12,964
9. Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan: (2006-2009) 12,905
10. Tim Rattay, Louisiana Tech: (1997-99) 12,746

Wow. Not exactly a murderer's row, is it? Here's a list of the top passers by TDs all time in college:

1. Colt Brennan Hawaii: 131 touchdown passes (2005-07)
2. Ty Detmer BYU: 121 (1988-91)
3. Timmy Chang Hawaii: 117 (2000-04)
4. Tim Rattay Louisiana Tech: 115 (1997-99)
5. Danny Wuerffel Florida: 114 (1993-96)
6. Chad Pennington Marshall: 100 (1997-99)
7. Matt Leinart USC: 99 (2002-05)
8. Kliff Kingsbury Texas Tech: 95 (1999-02)
9. Philip Rivers North Carolina State: 95 (2000-03)
10. Brady Quinn Notre Dame: 95 (2003-06)

Not looking much better. Outside of McCoy (still a work in progress), only Rivers and maybe Pennington have had sustained success at the professional level. Clearly, college success does not always equal NFL success. In the last 20 years, a QB has won the Heisman 12 times. Of those 12, 7 have thrown for 15 career TDs or less in the NFL. 3 of them never played a down in the NFL. Comparing Tebow's college stats to Manning's college stats aren't all that useful when you consider that college stats (even college awards) are far from the only indicater of success at the professional level.

A note about interceptions vs completion percentage: Players can, and have, come back from throwing a lot of picks to have great careers. Interceptions are flukier then flat out innacuracy. Look at Brady, who is arguably playing better than last year, yet has seen his interception rate nearly triple. Here's a list of QBs who finished last in completion percentage over the last decade, with teams winning percentage in parentheses:

2011: Tebow, 48.6 (8-6)
2010: Derek Anderson, 51.7 (5-11)
2009: Jamarcus Russell, 48.8 (5-11)
2008: Derek Anderson, 50.2 (4-12)
2007: Kellen Clemens, 52.0 (4-12)
2006: Vince Young, 51.5 (8-8)
2005: JP Losman, 49.6 (5-11)
2004: Mark Brunell, 49.8 (6-10)
2003: Kordell Stewart, 50.2 (7-9)
2002: Joey Harrington, 50.1 (3-13)

Here's a list of QBs who finished last in interceptions over the last decade:

2011: Ryan Fitzpatrick, 19 (5-9)
2010: Eli Manning, 25 (10-6)
2009: Jay Cutler, 26 (7-9)
2008: Brett Favre, 22 (9-7)
2007: Jon Kitna, 20 (7-9)
2006: Ben Roethlisberger, 23 (8-8)
2005: Brett Favre, 29 (4-12)
2004: Vinny Testaverde, 20 (6-10)
2003: Marc Bulger, 22 (12-4)
2002: Daunte Culpepper, 23 (6-10)

Which list would you rather be associated with? Neither is great, but one is a laundry list of the worst starting QBs of the last decade, the other includes some inconsistent but occasionally excellent players. There is a lot of luck and decision making involved in interceptions. Players can substantially improve their decision making and luck comes and goes. A poor completion percentage (due to the much larger sample size) is pretty representative of an innacurate QB. On top of that, a high interception rate is bad for a team's record (74-84, .468), but a low completion percentage (55-103, .348) is far worse.

Way too long of a post for a game thread, but oh well. It isn't just because he looks funny, or because he is loudly religious. People think Tebow is a poor passer because he is historically bad at getting the ball into his receivers' hands. In the past, players who were this bad at hitting targets tended to not last very long in the NFL. He's a great runner, appears to be a strong leader, and doesn't make a ton of mistakes. He's also an awful passer.

[Mystic Merlin]

I certainly understand and appreciate that argument, but in my opinion it was a big play in the game. Since the Pats picked up the 4th down conversion, it became moot, but what if, when Brady stumbled, he had fallen and the Broncos touched him down? Then the Broncos have the ball on their own 35-40 with about 3 minutes left in the half, only down by a point. The Pats are then looking at a potential deficit heading into the second half, instead of the 8 point lead that the TD led to. So I do think it was a game changing type of play. Hindsight shows that it worked out to save the challenge, since they picked up the 4th, but when that play occurred, we had no idea what would happen on 4th down.

That wasn't getting overturned. We've seen many times that you need a pretty brutal mis-spot AND crystal-clear evidence to that effect for a ref to overturn the spot on the field.

In retrospect - and having seen the replay a bunch of times - I feel similarly about the Hernandez catch; I don't think that is overturned. It potentially bounced twice off the turf (the first bounce was hard/fast enough to make me think it did hit the ground, and who knows what happened when it bounced into Hernandez's chest and he covered it. I don't feel comfortable challenging that play given all the uncertainty clouding the video evidence.

Now, on BOTH plays, I think the game situation dictates the call - if those plays happen late in the 4th quarter and the Pats absolutely need the points or the first down, then the calculus changes. In the second quarter? I'm not so desperate. Kick the FG and move on/go for it on 4th.

[TheoShmeo]

Now, on BOTH plays, I think the game situation dictates the call - if those plays happen late in the 4th quarter and the Pats absolutely need the points or the first down, then the calculus changes. In the second quarter? I'm not so desperate. Kick the FG and move on/go for it on 4th.

But what's the harm? Halfway through the second quarter I can't get too worked about losing a time out if the challenge goes against me. It's not as if it's a choice between a challenge and a FG.

And as much as I saw some movement, I thought Hernandez had his hand under the ball while it was moving.

[Harry Hooper]

But what's the harm? Halfway through the second quarter I can't get too worked about losing a time out if the challenge goes against me. It's not as if it's a choice between a challenge and a FG.

And as much as I saw some movement, I thought Hernandez had his hand under the ball while it was moving.

You don't just lose the TO, you lose the opportunity to make a third challenge (only awarded after two successful challenges).

[Al Zarilla]

There are a couple points:

1) those QBs all improved significantly as they gained more experience, something Tebow could do as well

2) those QBs all could not match Tebow in terms of avoiding picks and extending/creating plays with their legs.

Not saying Tebow is going to be in their class. Just saying that he has some skills that add to his value and that his future as a passer is not already defined, just as it would have been wrong to conclude that Peyton Manning was going to be a failure bc he threw 28 picks as a rookie.

As for Tebow being a "historically inaccurate passer," take a look at his college stats next to Manning's. We scout And project QBs all the time based on their college performance. Why is Tebow different? Because he throws kind of funny?

Did you watch Joe Montana play? He was a quick and pretty fast runner. Thing is he was a very accurate passer, real smart and had one of, if not the best stable of receivers in Rice, Taylor, Craig, Francis and others of all time, so he didn't have to run much. You wouldn't want him to run much. The other HOF 49er QB that followed him, Steve Young, was an even better, or much better runner, but it wasn't until he got over the run first mentality that he became a QB worthy of the HOF. Tebow justifies his existence as an NFL QB with his ability to run because he's a very erratic passer. After he gets significantly beat up from all the running (like Mike Vick) where will he be? I know he's a lot bigger and stronger than Vick, but if you get hit enough by NFL defenders, it'll take its toll no matter how big you are. What does John Elway think of Tebow today?

Back to Steve Young, he was a better runner than Tebow because of his speed. He typically could outrun all of his receivers, halfbacks and DBs. But, the 49ers still didn't want him running a lot because he had a great and accurate passing arm that could produce better results than his running. Will you ever be able to say that about Tebow?

[twibnotes]

He could and will improve, that's for sure. He has to. One thing I didn't note before, not only is he last in the league right now, his 48.6% would be the worst in the last decade among qualified QBs. All this despite being in the most favorable environment that QBs have ever seen. His completion percentage is historically low. There isn't much disputing that.

Tebow is different because he's got a professional track record to go off of. And scouts. Which actually do matter. A funny throwing motion isn't the only reason people don't think much of his ability as a passer. Philip Rivers has a funny throwing motion and was extremely successful in college, and until this year, he was seen as one of the top QBs in the league over the last half decade.

QB success in college doesn't always mean QB success in the NFL. Here's a list of the top passers (by total yards) all time in college:

1. Timmy Chang, Hawaii: (2000-2004) 17,072 yards
2. Graham Harrell, Texas Tech (2005-2008)
3. Ty Detmer, BYU: (1988-91) 15,031
4. Colt Brennan, Hawaii: (2005-07) 14,193
5. Case Keenum, Houston: (2007-present) 13,586
6. Philip Rivers, North Carolina State: (2000-03) 13,484
7. Colt McCoy, Texas: (2004-2008) 12,253
8. Kevin Kolb, Houston: (2003-06) 12,964
9. Dan LeFevour, Central Michigan: (2006-2009) 12,905
10. Tim Rattay, Louisiana Tech: (1997-99) 12,746

Wow. Not exactly a murderer's row, is it? Here's a list of the top passers by TDs all time in college:

1. Colt Brennan Hawaii: 131 touchdown passes (2005-07)
2. Ty Detmer BYU: 121 (1988-91)
3. Timmy Chang Hawaii: 117 (2000-04)
4. Tim Rattay Louisiana Tech: 115 (1997-99)
5. Danny Wuerffel Florida: 114 (1993-96)
6. Chad Pennington Marshall: 100 (1997-99)
7. Matt Leinart USC: 99 (2002-05)
8. Kliff Kingsbury Texas Tech: 95 (1999-02)
9. Philip Rivers North Carolina State: 95 (2000-03)
10. Brady Quinn Notre Dame: 95 (2003-06)

Not looking much better. Outside of McCoy (still a work in progress), only Rivers and maybe Pennington have had sustained success at the professional level. Clearly, college success does not always equal NFL success. In the last 20 years, a QB has won the Heisman 12 times. Of those 12, 7 have thrown for 15 career TDs or less in the NFL. 3 of them never played a down in the NFL. Comparing Tebow's college stats to Manning's college stats aren't all that useful when you consider that college stats (even college awards) are far from the only indicater of success at the professional level.

A note about interceptions vs completion percentage: Players can, and have, come back from throwing a lot of picks to have great careers. Interceptions are flukier then flat out innacuracy. Look at Brady, who is arguably playing better than last year, yet has seen his interception rate nearly triple. Here's a list of QBs who finished last in completion percentage over the last decade, with teams winning percentage in parentheses:

2011: Tebow, 48.6 (8-6)
2010: Derek Anderson, 51.7 (5-11)
2009: Jamarcus Russell, 48.8 (5-11)
2008: Derek Anderson, 50.2 (4-12)
2007: Kellen Clemens, 52.0 (4-12)
2006: Vince Young, 51.5 (8-8)
2005: JP Losman, 49.6 (5-11)
2004: Mark Brunell, 49.8 (6-10)
2003: Kordell Stewart, 50.2 (7-9)
2002: Joey Harrington, 50.1 (3-13)

Here's a list of QBs who finished last in interceptions over the last decade:

2011: Ryan Fitzpatrick, 19 (5-9)
2010: Eli Manning, 25 (10-6)
2009: Jay Cutler, 26 (7-9)
2008: Brett Favre, 22 (9-7)
2007: Jon Kitna, 20 (7-9)
2006: Ben Roethlisberger, 23 (8-8)
2005: Brett Favre, 29 (4-12)
2004: Vinny Testaverde, 20 (6-10)
2003: Marc Bulger, 22 (12-4)
2002: Daunte Culpepper, 23 (6-10)

Which list would you rather be associated with? Neither is great, but one is a laundry list of the worst starting QBs of the last decade, the other includes some inconsistent but occasionally excellent players. There is a lot of luck and decision making involved in interceptions. Players can substantially improve their decision making and luck comes and goes. A poor completion percentage (due to the much larger sample size) is pretty representative of an innacurate QB. On top of that, a high interception rate is bad for a team's record (74-84, .468), but a low completion percentage (55-103, .348) is far worse.

Way too long of a post for a game thread, but oh well. It isn't just because he looks funny, or because he is loudly religious. People think Tebow is a poor passer because he is historically bad at getting the ball into his receivers' hands. In the past, players who were this bad at hitting targets tended to not last very long in the NFL. He's a great runner, appears to be a strong leader, and doesn't make a ton of mistakes. He's also an awful passer.

You make some great points for sure. Just a few thoughts:

1) among the successful college QBs you cite in terms of yards, I would submit that Tebow played by far the most competitive schedule. The SEC in the 2000s is full of future NFLers on the defensive side of the ball.

2) among the low pct pros, the vast majority were nowhere near the thrower Tebow was as a college QB. Tebow blew up the record books in the SEC, including in terms of accuracy. He consistently made good decisions, took care of the ball and completed a ton of passes. Add to that the fact that he's a good character guy and a hard worker, and you can separate him from many in that pack. Cherry picking, but it would be laughable to compare him to Jemarcus

It's going to be really interesting to follow the guy, even without the religious/polarizing stuff. If he can complete 55 pct of his passes and stay healthy while running the ball, I think he could be very productive...but I realize that is a big if if to many people. I just think the jury is out...

Def checkout this Kerry Byrnes (cold hard football facts) interview on EEI if you get a few minutes. Good stuff:

http://audio.weei.co...this-sunday.htm

[mt8thsw9th]

Well, that hope would be that we would start transitioning to the gold standard before the currency is destroyed (which is looking inevitable these days)

That's an insane idea.

[mt8thsw9th]

Dp

Edited by mt8thsw9th, 19 December 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[twibnotes]

Did you watch Joe Montana play? He was a quick and pretty fast runner. Thing is he was a very accurate passer, real smart and had one of, if not the best stable of receivers in Rice, Taylor, Craig, Francis and others of all time, so he didn't have to run much. You wouldn't want him to run much. The other HOF 49er QB that followed him, Steve Young, was an even better, or much better runner, but it wasn't until he got over the run first mentality that he became a QB worthy of the HOF. Tebow justifies his existence as an NFL QB with his ability to run because he's a very erratic passer. After he gets significantly beat up from all the running (like Mike Vick) where will he be? I know he's a lot bigger and stronger than Vick, but if you get hit enough by NFL defenders, it'll take its toll no matter how big you are. What does John Elway think of Tebow today?

Back to Steve Young, he was a better runner than Tebow because of his speed. He typically could outrun all of his receivers, halfbacks and DBs. But, the 49ers still didn't want him running a lot because he had a great and accurate passing arm that could produce better results than his running. Will you ever be able to say that about Tebow?

Tebow's ability to stay healthy while running as he does (clearly a power runner) is a big concern for sure. But, I don't think it's out of the question that like Vick he will improve his throwing and develop a more balanced arsenal.

Clearly it comes down to whether he can improve his accuracy. My main point is that many great QBs improved their accuracy a significant amount, and it's too soon to assume Tebow can't....especially given that (a) his supporting cast sucks (the often talked about 3 for 16 half was full of drops) and (b) he was an extremely accurate passer in the dominant conference in college football (i.e, it is, IMO, inappropriate to compare him to guys who tore up the WAC)

[twibnotes]

That's an insane idea.

Right bc the current system is working swell. Education, real estate, healthcare, food...none of those costs have risen precipitously. The middle class is doing just dandy!

[Turrable]

There a couple of differences of which Mr Harrison should take note. First, Dumervil's hit is below the neck and above the knees. Second, Dumervil doesn't use the crown of his helmet, he doesn't duck at the last moment, the way Harrison did. Perfect hit.

To be fair, rarely is a QB teed up like that. Brady didn't have a chance of ducking that hit. The stuff Harrison keeps getting fined for is usually on moving targets, which creates different issues. I think Harrison deserves the punishments he receives but I don't think it's fair to point to the Dumervil hit as one he needs to take note of.

[Al Zarilla]

Tebow's ability to stay healthy while running as he does (clearly a power runner) is a big concern for sure. But, I don't think it's out of the question that like Vick he will improve his throwing and develop a more balanced arsenal.

Clearly it comes down to whether he can improve his accuracy. My main point is that many great QBs improved their accuracy a significant amount, and it's too soon to assume Tebow can't....especially given that (a) his supporting cast sucks (the often talked about 3 for 16 half was full of drops) and (b) he was an extremely accurate passer in the dominant conference in college football (i.e, it is, IMO, inappropriate to compare him to guys who tore up the WAC)

I don't know, with that "windup" of his, before Tebow throws, the ball takes a pretty tortuous route. Who knows if he gets the ball anywhere near the same release point every time. Maybe that's why some of his throws go into the ground nowhere near the target (not that TB and others don't do the same thing now and then). Contrast with Peyton Manning, who has the same over the top, release at the highest point on every single throw. Only time will tell how much Tebow will improve, how far he'll go.

[Mystic Merlin]

Right bc the current system is working swell. Education, real estate, healthcare, food...none of those costs have risen precipitously. The middle class is doing just dandy!

Get your politics shit the fuck out of this thread. Nobody comes to the Pats' GTs to discuss the plight of the middle class.

[twibnotes]

I don't know, with that "windup" of his, before Tebow throws, the ball takes a pretty tortuous route. Who knows if he gets the ball anywhere near the same release point every time. Maybe that's why some of his throws go into the ground nowhere near the target (not that TB and others don't do the same thing now and then). Contrast with Peyton Manning, who has the same over the top, release at the highest point on every single throw. Only time will tell how much Tebow will improve, how far he'll go.

Interestingly, Tebow's mechanics were being tweaked late in his college career.

http://sports.espn.g...mark&id=4178702

[twibnotes]

Get your politics shit the fuck out of this thread. Nobody comes to the Pats' GTs to discuss the plight of the middle class.

My apologies - I didn't mean to offend or mess up the thread.

[Reverend]

My apologies - I didn't mean to offend or mess up the thread.

[dcmissle]

Tebow v. Brady...

Skip Bayless picks Tebow.

The fucking madness must stop. Please win convincingly.

So what did this douche say today? I missed it. (And I don't mean Tebow)

[judyb]

I guess everyone else changes the channel as soon as they see or hear him, too.

[Mystic Merlin]

Well, I only saw clips strewn around the internet, but he said he'd take Tebow over Brady if he had to win a game today. He also said Tebow is 'gaining' on Elway in Broncos lore.

[Al Zarilla]

Well, I only saw clips strewn around the internet, but he said he'd take Tebow over Brady if he had to win a game today. He also said Tebow is 'gaining' on Elway in Broncos lore.

Right. If you go to Denver and get around the city some, you'll find every fifth car dealership or so with Elway's name on it, plus other kinds of retail businesses. Tebow has what so far?

[dcmissle]

Well, I only saw clips strewn around the internet, but he said he'd take Tebow over Brady if he had to win a game today. He also said Tebow is 'gaining' on Elway in Broncos lore.

Did Clueless repeat this AFTER Sunday's game? I saw Stephen A. Smith ripping Bayless a new one for the Elway comment before the game.

Also, has anyone heard from our resident sage Mike Felger on the matter?

For the record, I admire Tebow and believe that he could have a very decent 10-year career. I just insist on holding douches to account for their nonsense.

[Mystic Merlin]

Did Clueless repeat this AFTER Sunday's game? I saw Stephen A. Smith ripping Bayless a new one for the Elway comment before the game.

Also, has anyone heard from our resident sage Mike Felger on the matter?

For the record, I admire Tebow and believe that he could have a very decent 10-year career. I just insist on holding douches to account for their nonsense.

I have no idea, I doubt he did.